04 rt1150 never starts the same twice

[wz31857]

I have owned my first beemer now for about 6 months.I have 43000 miles on it.I performed the spline lube and replaced the slave cylinder at the same time and now it has a clutch rod sound that wasn't there before ,maybe a bunk slave cylinder considering that it is also the throwout bearing and rotates constantly . I have repeatedly done the TB sync with the harmonizer, changed plugs, replaced stick coils, added the plug booster, cleaned the idle screws, adjusted vales,but it never seems to run the same twice on startup and warmup.Am I asking too much or are these motors that temperamental ? I have 9 other motorcycles for street and dirt from 1964 to 2006 and this is the only machine that I cannot conquer .Is it time for a st1300?

[roger 04 rt]

I've had the same bike for almost a year and taken a lot of data. When you say it's different each time you start it tell us something about the differences. RB

[wz31857]

Sometimes the engine is smooth sometimes it's rough,other times the idle is high or low .It runs beautiful on the road. The clutch sound goes away when you pull in the clutch but this noise is louder with the new clutch slave cylinder.

[wz31857]

Another thing that has become consistent is after startup, (almost like clockwork)the engine runs for about a minute and the idle drops 4 or 5 hundred rpm and then until it warms up a little more comes back up a little. Very frustrating!

[Alfred02]

Another thing that has become consistent is after startup, (almost like clockwork)the engine runs for about a minute and the idle drops 4 or 5 hundred rpm and then until it warms up a little more comes back up a little. Very frustrating!

That won't change, mine did the same.

I checked this with the GS911 and it's the exact time when the Lambda control kicks in.

 

[Boffin]

Another thing that has become consistent is after startup, (almost like clockwork)the engine runs for about a minute and the idle drops 4 or 5 hundred rpm and then until it warms up a little more comes back up a little. Very frustrating!

That won't change, mine did the same.

I checked this with the GS911 and it's the exact time when the Lambda control kicks in.

 

Sounds like a dead O2 sensor to me - my bike did that until I swapped out the sensor.

 

Andy

[Alfred02]

Another thing that has become consistent is after startup, (almost like clockwork)the engine runs for about a minute and the idle drops 4 or 5 hundred rpm and then until it warms up a little more comes back up a little. Very frustrating!

That won't change, mine did the same.

I checked this with the GS911 and it's the exact time when the Lambda control kicks in.

 

Sounds like a dead O2 sensor to me - my bike did that until I swapped out the sensor.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

Obviously don't have the bike anymore, but the new owner is more then happy.

The sensor wasn't dead as it showed to be clearly working within the margin it should on the GS-911, according to their minimum/maximum line.

But it clearly dropped the rpm (on mine just 200 ~ 300rpm)on the crossover point from open loop to close loop.

Once past that point for 30s plus, it would stabilize again.

The only thing I didn't do is replace the sensor or have the injectors cleaned.

[Boffin]

The sensor on mine was still 'crossing' the 0.5v mark and did not give a fault on the dealer's MoDiTeC. I used an oscilloscope to compare my sensor to another bike that was running well - it was slower to respond and the trace looked very different in duty-cycle - hence the poor running.

 

Andy

[Alfred02]

Andy

Absolute zero issue with your last statement.

The GS-911 gets it's info from the Computer and not directly from the sensor itself.

If I would have bothered at the time to hook up my Fluke digital handheld CRO, it might have been more obvious.

If I would have kept the bike, I would have chased this up and eventually resolved.

As mine just dropped 200~300rpm a couple of times during warmup, it was more an annoyance to an otherwise perfect like clockwork running engine then a real issue. For the time being, I simply got into the habit of getting up and going before it warmed up to that point. By the time I stopped again, it was passed that crossover point and not an issue at all anymore.

 

This was more a nagging stain in my mind, since after all the work done and transforming this tractor into such a great running bike, having this one blemish.

BTW, the new owner never mentioned anything, so he hasn't even noticed this. He chose the bike after having tried 4 others and my Ex bike was the smoothest and best running.

It wasn't like that when I got it, LOL.

So for the topic starter.....don't give up.

IMHO as a pure touring bike, the 04 1150RT is the cream of the crop of all the BMW boxers.

I traded mine in as I am running with a small group up and down the mountain range at a hard pace, which where the more sporty 1200RT is more suited for (and also, the ashtray was full).

 

[roger 04 rt]

Andy makes a good point about the O2 sensor. Here is how a working bike's AFR (air fuel ratio looks) except mine is 6% rich across the board. You can see it get leaner when it goes closed loop at a little past 3 minutes. This was a warm day so you have to look carefully to see the enrichment phases I mention below.

 

 

Here is the start sequence:

 

Many things have to be right for your motorcycle to idle well. First, how many miles on your motorcycle? When were the fuel filter and air filter last changed? How does the air filter look? Do you have a Pink Coding Plug in the electrical box under the seat?

 

It sounds as if your engine gets too lean after a minute (when it starts to run like a cylinder and a half). When you start your 04RT the mixture is very rich with what's called a "cranking" enrichment, then for a minute it is running "after start" enrichment--less rich than when cranking but still pretty rich. After that first minute the Motronic enters the "warm-up" phase and uses the Oil Temperature sensor and reduces the enrichment as the motorcycle warms to about 4 bars. All during this time it is making the mixture several percent leaner or richer depending on what it "learned" from the O2 sensor the last few times you drove the motorcycle when it was hot. It is also monitoring Hall sensor, the TPS sensor (is the paint broken on its screws?), Air Temperature, barometric pressure, and battery voltage and adjusting the mixture for these factors.

 

So from the symptoms that it runs okay for the first minute and then runs poorly it seems like you run until you get to the warm-up phase. That might implicate the Oil Temp sensor but if your RID oil temp indicator comes up to temperature normally then we can rule that out. It also might implicate the O2 sensor, suggesting that it is bad and not allowing the Motronic to learn good Adaptation Values.

 

If your injectors are too dirty or your fuel pressure is too low the O2 sensor and Motronic won't be able to learn the Adaptation Values and you will idle poorly. You could try a couple tanks with Techron Concentrate added to clean the injectors. Or it might be a bad O2 sensor. But you'd need some experience and an oscilloscope as Andy mentioned.

 

I would begin by letting the engine get cold, and reset the Motronic--pull fuse 5 for a few minutes, reinstall it, turn on the key but don't crank the engine, make sure the fast idle is off, roll the throttle from idle to WOT twice slowly, then turn the key off.

 

Now start the engine with fast idle lever up and note what happens, is it different? It may be, since you have cleared all previous Adaptation Values.

 

Do you have a GS-911? That would allow you to read Motronic error codes, check the TPS setting and read all the sensor values in real time. After the bike was warm you could also monitor and tell if the O2 sensor was functioning.

 

Sorry about the length of that but those are the major factors.

RB

[dirtrider]

Morning wz31857

 

A simple first question-- but are you using the choke (fast idle lever) on the L/H handlebar for cold start up & some warm up time? If so are you moving it to the same place on every start up? If you are using it how long do leave it in the "on" or "partially on" position?

 

The other concern I have is you mention a Booster Plug. Those things certainly richen the open loop cold start & richen pre-lambda engine idle. Couple that with the ability of your fueling computer to learn the fueling adaptives & you get a very large fueling change as the fueling computer commands closed loop operation.

 

--So first thing to try is disconnecting the Booster Plug then remove #5 fuse for about 60 seconds then do new TPS (throttle position sensor) re-learn. That will eliminate the fueling computer adaptive learned offsets & re-teach the TPS the high/low discreets.

 

If disconnecting the Booster Plug doesn't help your issue then--

 

_Look CLOSELY for the 02 sensor wire being routed incorrectly along or next-to the R/H spark plug wire. A somewhat common occurrence on a twin spark 1150. That alone can cause all kinds of runability issues. If the 02 sensor wire is receiving cross talk from the spark plug wire it can cause all kinds of runability issues.

 

_Next, make darn sure your 2nd load relief relay is functioning correctly & supplying power to the upper spark plugs during start up & warm up. If it is running only on the lower plugs it won't run worth a hoot during warm up or idle (very erratic idle possible)

 

_Next , verify that you have the correct CCP (coding plug) in the fuse box (probably pink). An incorrect CCP can give very strange warm up & idle characteristics.

 

If all else accounted for maybe then try disconnecting the 02 sensor for a few days as a test. If it cold-idles better & does better during warm-up then look into a new 02 sensor, or just leave it disconnected.

 

There is more but this is enough to get you started.

 

[wz31857]

Where do you guys learn this stuff.I have a dozen bikes in the garage but this is the first computer related problems I have had to deal with.You boys are way above my head but I will research on testing the aforementioned components.I have run injector cleaner for a couple of tanks by the way,but thank you for all the suggestions and expertice, all I can finish with is WOW.

[scottnew]

One thing you can count on here is getting the best of the best when it comes to advice/ trouble-shooting/ help/ tips/ yeay- everything that is possible to know about your bike :)Plus some

[Skywagon]

wz3...I have a 2005 1150RT bought new and now has 33k on it. Mine starts and runs the same EVERYTIME relative to first thing in the morning, after a long ride, etc. So recommend you follow what Dirtrider/Andy is suggesting as something is a miss...no pun intended. There is a cure somewhere.

[ESokoloff]

Hi Wayne

 

May be the blind leading the blind but perhaps I can swing by & lend a hand.

Will you be around Fri. early evening?

 

Check your PM's (personal messages).

[jfremder]

Another thing that has become consistent is after startup, (almost like clockwork)the engine runs for about a minute and the idle drops 4 or 5 hundred rpm and then until it warms up a little more comes back up a little. Very frustrating!

That won't change, mine did the same.

I checked this with the GS911 and it's the exact time when the Lambda control kicks in.

 

Yep-

 

I vote the o2 sensor too.

 

Sounds like a dead O2 sensor to me - my bike did that until I swapped out the sensor.

 

Andy

[wz31857]

You say it was doing the same thing but would the o2 sensor make it run rough at low rpms only and if I disconnect the sensor to see if that is the problem, do I know its the problem because it runs better without it or what.signed, confused.

[dirtrider]

 

Morning wz31857

 

A faulty or lazy 02 sensor can make the engine operate rough at low RPM's as well as can effect other states or operation. The 02 sensor is also a very easy place to start your diagnosis.

 

 

The 02 sensor not only directly controls the fueling when active (called closed loop) but also allows the fueling computer to see where it is operating in relation to programmed fueling so the fueling computer then learns the fueling off-sets or what BMW calls adaptives.

 

TRY disconnecting the 02 sensor, then removing the #5 fuse for about 60 seconds (that clears the learned fueling adaptives). After removing the #5 fuse you then need to do a re-learn on the TPS (throttle position sensor) --- to do that--right after #5 fuse re-installation turn the key on (do not start engine), then FULLY open & close the twist grip twice (be sure the choke is OFF during the TPS re-learn cycle).

 

[wz31857]

First of all thanks for everyones time,I checked the secondary plugs and they are firing fine.I haven't gotten to the o2 sensor yet because I just spent two evenings pulling the new slave cylinder and adding some grease and then reinstalling. I have been chasing this rattling clutch rod and now I am starting to think there is more noise transmitting because the engine does not run smooth.(I Hope) This all started going downhill when I did the spline lube.I got so cocky I did a friends rt also and he just got back from a 1900 mile trip thanking me for the help and the bike ran great.

[wz31857]

I performed the tsp reset ,disconnected the 02 sensor and started the bike. At first the idle came up it felt smooth and the boom it went back to a drop in speed and a rough running engine,you know when the windshield starts shaking.I pulled the spark plug wires out of the clips and ran my fingers up and down the wires while the engine ran,desperate I know but an effective method if there was a wire leaking voltage to ground.I just don't get it you put this thing on the road and it halls the mail.

[wz31857]

I left a reply on the end of the last page.

[wz31857]

Ok,so Eric another member on this site came by this evening,we started going through the bike doing varying testing procedures and what do you know Eric spots the TB's ,the cams on both are sitting off the stops about an eighth of an inch each .To me this is why I have never gotten much response out of the idle screws.My problem now is that I loosened the throttle cable all the way and the cams don't move they continue to sit off the stops. I try to pull on the cams but the individual cables are definitely holding them off.Theres obviously something wrong in the cable routing through the I am sorry but I do not know what that cable juntion box is called,anyway what to do now.

[dirtrider]

Morning wz31857

 

Make sure the choke cable isn't too tight therefore holding the throttles open. That could be from the choke lever being on, or the choke cable being mis-adjusted, or the choke cable-being mis-routed or the choke cable being pulled slightly apart under the rubber boot.

 

Also make sure ALL the cables are seated properly in the Bowden box.

 

Go over ALL the cables & see if one is holding tension on the bowden box cams. If ALL the cables look properly routed then try to find the one or ones that is holding your throttle plates open.

 

[wz31857]

Thanks to everyone for there input and Eric who worked into the night and was the one who spotted the problem.I cleaned the bowden box and I am under the impression the previous owner must have liked the beach if you catch my drift,anyway started from scratch performed the sync and I'm back in action,even the rattles have disappeared .Hey Eric I owe you a nice meal and anytime I can be of service just let me know. (This site is definitely #1)

[wz31857]

I have a gs911 on the way but where do I locate the information for the correct parameters so I know what is right and what is wrong.

[wz31857]

Ok I feel like an idiot,I went out started the bike and once again it idles like crap.It ran great when I performed the sync it ran smooth and now after it cooled down right back where I started, I have a gs911 and a o2 sensor coming and will trudge on.I just can't bring myself to take it to a mechanic there has to be a way to figure this out.

[roger 04 rt]

I lied just tried it again and it idled like crap,I have an o2 sensor and gs911 on order,I just was wondering where to find the information to know what is the proper readings and what are the red flags

 

The first thing you want to look at with the 911 will be error codes, then real time values, then o2 functioning, then TPS test. Once you have it attached you'll think of dozens of variables to watch. The best thing to do is log data into a spreadsheet and plot it.

 

Specifically you'll want to see that the oil temp and air temp are as they should be, along with correct reading from the other sensors, that it enters closed loop when warm at about 50C, and that the O2 plot has good rich/lean transitions. Later you can go further and look at injector pulse width at idle. I have lots of data to compare to.

 

The big things the Motronic and GS-911 miss are injectors, fuel pressure and fuel volume for which there are no sensors.

 

Take it a step at a time, you'll figure it out.

[wz31857]

What I don't understand is how do I know what is a good reading or a bad one,I don't expect the 911 to do anything but read what's happening. Thanks for your optimism Roger but I am not what you would consider computer savvy .Appreciate your time.

 

 

[wz31857]

Hi Roger I installed my new o2 sensor today reset the tps and it seems to have cured my low idle problem,I have restarted the beast sevaral times and actually need to lower the idle a bit.I don't know if I should start a new thread for my next predicament or not so here it goes. I had brought this up when we were discussing the 02 sensor,I have just recently performed the spline lube and now I get an intermitten rattling sound from the clutch pushrod.I used a stethoscope and located it at the throwout bearing.(I know noises migrate) So I did it the hard way and pulled the rear wheel and shock,removed the slave cylinder and rod ,started the bike and the noise is gone.My understanding of the slave cylinder and rod is that it is not spinning unless the clutch lever is pulled in.The noise only happens at idle in neutral and disappears when you pull in the clutch.My question is how does the rod stay in the slave cylinder if it does not have contact on both ends,and why the heck is it annoying me to no end. Sorry I got long winded.I am still waiting for my gs911 to arrive tomorrow or Saturday before I confirm all is well with the engine and I will probably become a pest with a slew of new questions.

[wz31857]

Well the 02 sensor worked magic,the bike has never run this good in the 6 months I have owned it. The gs911 shows all is good.When you replace the 02 sensor ride the bike for 20 minutes or so and then adjust the TB,s,I did not and installed the tupperware and had to remove it again to lower the idle,it was up around 1450 after the computer enjoyed it's new 02 sensor.I am pretty sure the noise I hear is the transmission and after studying the manual I think it's the spring cluster that absorbs shock or torque on the inlet shaft. My friends who are Bmw veterans say ignore it these bikes make all sorts of strange noises,thats hard to do but after 200 miles today through the San Bernadino mountains (San Fernando valley to Wrightwood and back)It ran flawlessly .I guess I wiil just enjoy it but be aware of any changes in tone down there.Wish I had the 911 weeks ago it would have saved me a lot of guess work. Thanks to all that chimed in.

[roger 04 rt]

Can't comment on your transmission noise but it seems that you've had a good result with the O2 sensor. When the O2 gets slow or goes bad, the Motronic learns the wrong corrections. this can lead to poor running and idling. Let's hope the solution continues to hold.

 

Good luck with the transmission. Also, you'll think of more things to measure with the 911. It's a great tool.

[wz31857]

Thanks Roger,I am going to wipe her down and head to the Huntington Beach surfing championships this morning and just enjoy the ride.Thanks for the support.