St0mp Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 I Think i got a hold of some bad gas. just want a opinion before i start draining my tank. the other day my tank was down to 2 bars normally i don't let my tank get that low. had to stop at a marathon station for fuel. Got the fuel got about 50 miles out stopped to get some food came back out to bike bike would not start. was getting a little frustrated. So i gave it some time came back to the bike and it fired up. at this point i figured i would try to make it home i was about 100 mile out at this point from home. made it all the way home with no issues. next day i did a overlook on the bike everything looked ok. Bike fired up like it never had any issues. so i decided to do a short run with the bike i got 2.7 miles from my home i was doing 60 the bike back-fired and then died pulled it over could not get it to start gave it some time still would not start. Called tow truck waited for about a hr tried the bike again still waiting for tow truck bike fired up ran for about 3-4 min then died. after about 1 more hour tow truck showed up got my bike home. unloaded the bike in the garage. turned the key fires right up. like if it had no issues. took around the block no signs of issues. think this is a bad gas issue or something in my tank or other? thank you for your reply....
Danny caddyshack Noonan Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Vent hose plugged and the pump is pulling against vacuum? Pop the gas cap next time it happens and see if you hear the whoosh. It should be less apparent as the tank drains though.
roger 04 rt Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 +1 on the vent hose above or this: Fuel Hose Leaks in Tank
OoPEZoO Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 When you say it won't start......I'm guessing it is cranking, but won't fire? Can you hear the fuel pump cycle when you turn the key on? Did you take notice to the RID, has the clock reset the time or gone blank during any of this? If it has, you might want to look at the sidestand switch or kill switch. If the RID stays lit up, then I'm betting that your HES is failing. Best way to trouble shoot it is to check for spark. If the bike is cranking, but won't fire. Pull a spark plug boot, insert a spare spark plug, ground the chassis of the plug, and hit the starter. I'll bet you won't get a spark. Dead ringer for a HES failure. How many miles on the bike?
St0mp Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 yes its cranking, yes i can hear the fuel pump when i turn the key. i did not look at the clock when this happened. But i just looked and it still shows the correct time so i don't"think" the clock reset. The bike right now is up and running acting like it never had any issue. (would this still be that HES issue?) I was setup to do a weekend trip this weekend and i don't feel like getting stranded so im trying to prevent the issue from coming back so i can go this weekend. but now with the bike in my garage it does not want to show me any issues. It knows i have tools mileage on the bike is 57000 the bike has been BMW service up until 2 year's ago i started doing it myself. im pulling off panels now to go get to my vent lines ill check back here in a few min... again thank you guys for the reply's and help
dirtrider Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Afternoon St0mp While this is just an educated guess from afar your problem does have the ear marks of an HES failure. If you were riding on wet rainy roads or had just washed the bike that would even more point to an HES issue. A check for both spark across a spark plug & fuel injector operation during the failure is about the only sure test. Maybe as an (eliminate this) drain the fuel tank into a clean container then let it settle & look for presence or water. While in there maybe disconnect the fuel return hose then jump the fuel pump relay & see if you get any return flow from the engine side of the return hose. If no flow then suspect a problem inside the fuel tank like pin hole in a hose etc. Here is thread on a similar problem just s short time ago. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=789641&page=1
St0mp Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 hmm i did wash the bike with low pressure when i got home. When i was first looking for clues on why the bike would not start. The first time. A few days before this happen, i did get caught in heavy rain. But had no issues. I just ordered the seals for under the tank will not be in till next week so looks like im grounded. from my understanding them seals are going to need to be replaced just to look to see if it has any cracks
tallman Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Based on age of your bike I'd order everything/rebuild or replacement unit as it is going to happen...
Galactic Greyhound Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Evening St0mp If, as has already been mentioned, your RID is active when you try and start the bike, this means the that the Kill and Sidestand starting interlock switches are OK and are not the problem. Check out the Ignition Coil and leads as follows before working on the HES: Ignition coil/Spark plug wires check: 1. Disconnect both HT leads from the plugs. 2. Measure the resistance from one spark plug wire to the other - this should be around 20.3 Kohms. This value consists of; LH spark plug wire 6.4 Kohms + Spark Coil Secondary winding 7.5 Kohms + RH spark plug wire 6.4 Kohms. The Spark Coil Primary winding is around 0.5 ohms. Note: The Ignition Coil Secondary winding is 7.5 Kohms for the 'plastic' coil. The older coils were around 13 Kohms and this is sometimes erroneously quoted where the newer plastic coil is fitted. My 1996 R1100RT acted just like yours soon after I went through a flooded road. The intermittent nature of the problem made it very difficult to isolate. I eventually eliminated all other causes and replaced the HES which cleared the problem. The original HES are prone to this problem apparently due to deterioration of the insulation affecting the fuel/ignition pulses to the Motronic. Attached is a diagram of the R1100RT Ignition Circuit which might be handy to have.
dirtrider Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 ---- from my understanding them seals are going to need to be replaced just to look to see if it has any cracks Afternoon St0mp If you run that return hose fuel flow test mentioned above you might not have to look inside the tank to see if you have any cracks. With the fuel pump running you should have noticeable flow back through the return line. If you do then your hoses & pump are making plenty of flow @ pressure to start & run the engine. If you have no return flow then you will probably have to look inside the tank. Added: You might be able to yes/or/no the HES if you can ride it around the block a few times & get it to quit again. To do that get a known good spark plug (doesn't have to fit your engine), then open the electrode gap to 3/16" (or thereabouts). If you can get the thing to quit again just pop that spark plug into one of the plug wires & lay on cylinder head then crank engine (leave the existing plugs in the engine). If you are getting no spark across the 3/16" gap there is a good chance your HES is bad.
St0mp Posted July 20, 2012 Author Posted July 20, 2012 I was looking at my book today and i am due for a valve adjustment tune up service in 1,000 miles should i go ahead and get this done with the bike in this condition? i went ahead and picked up new plugs today. it looks like fuel return flow is good. kinda leaning to the spark myself now. or coil. got it running today held the rpm at 2500 for about 5 min started backfire and die. Back to would not start. coil maybe getting hot and killing me or combo of maybe a dying plug + marathon gas i did not realize i was this close to the next service. but next service does call for plug replacement
Galactic Greyhound Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 ... it looks like fuel return flow is good. kinda leaning to the spark myself now. or coil. got it running today held the rpm at 2500 for about 5 min started backfire and die. Back to would not start. coil maybe getting hot and killing me or combo of maybe a dying plug + marathon gas ... Beginning to look like the HES. Mine would run until 2 bars on the Oil Temp gauge then cut out. Would restart OK when cold then die at 2 bars again regular as clockwork. Check out the ignition coil/HT leads resistance as previously posted before doing any HES work. However, remember that you really want to check out the bike when the fault is on. Try and run it till it cuts out then immediately do the fuel return flow/sparking check thing. Mine sparked for a few seconds when the fault was on then stopped so crank it long enough to give it a good test.
dirtrider Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 Morning St0mp As a far as electrical issues go I would put HES W-A-Y above a coil failure. I have only seen a couple of coils fail on these BMW 1100/1150 & those were RTP-P (police bikes with shielded wires & covered coil). None caused a sudden engine total quit-running. Typical coil failure isn't a sudden & complete quit but more a degradation in performance under load or passing.
philbytx Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 I would simply replace the HES. It needs to be done anyway and, if it DOES still act up, you have removed THAT particular "wild card" from the equation. Go HERE for a replacement. John gives great service at fair prices....
St0mp Posted July 21, 2012 Author Posted July 21, 2012 yeah i started thinking that myself. about just getting it (the HES) replaced That the bike has just become of age. i have loved the way this bike handles TBO i really liked this bike But have always liked the look of the newer R1200RT something around the 06 year maybe its a sign.. Just got to convince wife on this. I will say this is the FIRST issue that i have had with this bike out of the 7 years of owning it after all when i did buy it it was already 6 years old going to go look to see if i can make a find me a 06 maybe i can just fix the issue ill prob still have to fix this issue though. Went ahead and tossed in plugs. got up and running got upto 4 bars of heat then one run i got upto 6 bars on temp meter started back firing then die got to pick up something to test voltage today. thinking Ignition Coil i am still thinking of ordering a Ignition Hall Effect Trigger Sensor just because of the age of the bike. i am getting a lot of backfire after the bike dies when im trying to restart it unless bike is cool then it fires up right away it did not do the backfire thing to much on restart when this first happened but now after it gets hot shuts down then backfires when your trying to restart it
St0mp Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 lol i went ahead and drain the gas and put in new gas put in new fresh set of plugs i still have not got any parts yet still waiting on them i dont know if i can trust it or not yet but the bike just stayed up and running with no backfire issues i ran it at 2500 rpm until the heat sensor was 1 bar away from being max temp 1/2 tempted in taking it on a short run to see what it does i still need to change fuel filter but figured that can wait for me to get the part for the HES with the bike up and running now would it still might be that HES taking a dump ill prob still replace it the part is already paid for and ordered along with seals the bike started wile hot no issues after i got it that hot i restarted it about 2 min after shut down
Galactic Greyhound Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 lol i went ahead and drain the gas and put in new gas put in new fresh set of plugs i still have not got any parts yet still waiting on them i dont know if i can trust it or not yet but the bike just stayed up and running with no backfire issues i ran it at 2500 rpm until the heat sensor was 1 bar away from being max temp 1/2 tempted in taking it on a short run to see what it does i still need to change fuel filter but figured that can wait for me to get the part for the HES with the bike up and running now would it still might be that HES taking a dump ill prob still replace it the part is already paid for and ordered along with seals the bike started wile hot no issues after i got it that hot i restarted it about 2 min after shut down Try giving it a low pressure bath and see if it still behaves itself
tallman Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 lol i went ahead and drain the gas and put in new gas put in new fresh set of plugs i still have not got any parts yet still waiting on them i dont know if i can trust it or not yet but the bike just stayed up and running with no backfire issues i ran it at 2500 rpm until the heat sensor was 1 bar away from being max temp 1/2 tempted in taking it on a short run to see what it does i still need to change fuel filter but figured that can wait for me to get the part for the HES with the bike up and running now would it still might be that HES taking a dump ill prob still replace it the part is already paid for and ordered along with seals the bike started wile hot no issues after i got it that hot i restarted it about 2 min after shut down One of the symptoms of HES can be the intermittent nature of the effect. Not sure hiw far I'd stray. Good luck.
St0mp Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 did a 15 mile block everything seamed back to normal. Will do the low pressure bath and see if it changes. Would rather have me brake down here now then on the road. Replacement parts will not be in until Thursday or wednesday. Not even sure now if i really need to do any of it. kinda started to fall back on my first thought about just bad gas but i am close to due for service anyway. Plugs fuel filter ect. valve adjustment. thinking just do the normal service and see how things turn out?
St0mp Posted August 10, 2012 Author Posted August 10, 2012 It was the gas after all. I'm almost 100% on it. i drained the tank pulled out fuel assembly first thing i seen was my fuel filter was dated 2002! I had dealership service when i hit 48,000 Hummm... inspected all lines they look good used contact cleaner on the plug that you need to pull to take off tank The HES sensor? ran 20 mile no issues. low pressure wash 20 mile run did ok, yesterday did a 130 mile run got caught in some rain and no issues. the fuel on other-hand... put in lawnmower today. Now lawnmower will not stay running.. Marathon station gas for ya. stay clear.... Lawnmower only 2 seasons old And yes my gas gauge still works:)
St0mp Posted September 10, 2012 Author Posted September 10, 2012 I was wrong. Just happened again same story i have ran the bike about 1300 miles sense the last time it did this. got 3 miles from home backfire and died would not start. Would crank and act like it wanted to start, just acted like there was no fuel again. Waited about 3 hours bike fired up got about 2 miles closer to home and died. Just ordered that 300$ hes sensor. what a pain. the coil did check out with them numbers you provided. I think its asking to be traded in
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