My RT took a crap today...

[baggerchris]

I don't like the implications of this thread (and others like it) one little bit. Even tho my bike has been perfect, these things will impact my decision on what new bike to buy. BMW are you listening? (with 1.4% of the U.S. marketplace you should)

[peterbulgar]

I sent an e-mail to BMW Motorrad in which I outlined the reports of clutch spline problems as have been described on various Internet forums. I asked if BMW had an official response to the reports of failures, if there was a common cause in those failures, if a significant number of machines had been affected, and if any design changes had been made to this area in the R1200 series. I received the following:

 

"We are aware of the concerns being expressed through various websites. However, BMW is unaware of any cases which have been confirmed as a warrantable repair (a result of a defect in materials or workmanship). To date, we have found the vast majority of these complaints to be attributed to normal wear or external influence, such as misuse or neglect. However, we are still investigating this matter. We would strongly recommend you stay in contact with the service team at your BMW Retailer for further updates."

 

So, there it is straight from the company. I wouldn't have been surprised if they hadn't replied at all, but in less than a day I received a polite if somewhat circumspect response. Note the following:

1) They define "warrantable repair" as a defect in materials or workmanship, but say nothing about inadequate design. From first hand information on this list we know that BMW has repaired under warranty at least some such failures. Perhaps they are assuming misuse and filing the cost under "maintaining good customer relations".

2) I'm intrigued by the suggestion of "misuse or neglect". Since BMW does not have a service interval for maintaining the input shaft spline/clutch plate interface, it would seem hard to define just what was neglected.

3) I'm encouraged that they say they are investigating the matter. I'll harass my dealer every now and then to see if he's heard anything more from BMW.

 

At this point I'm feeling pretty good about my decision to get an extended warranty, although I'll still be steamed if I have a problem someplace in British Columbia halfway through a three-week trip. For those of you who have the normal BMW warranty, I suggest riding the bike as much as you can so that you have at least 30K miles at the end of three years. The early failures seem to be clustered in the 20-30K range.

 

(I posted a this on the r1150r.org site as well.)

peter '73 R75/5 (out of warranty), '04 R1150RA

[upflying]

Besides the introduction of the Hexhead, I can't help but wonder what threads like this do to the resale value of 1150's.

When I go shopping for a used 1150 RT, I will ask the seller if the splines have failed and if so, when it was repaired. Will a bike be harder to sell (or worth less) if it still has the original splines?

 

For example: FS/2xxx R1150RT, silver,

low miles, lots of accessories, new tires and splines $x,xxx

[russell_bynum]

Besides the introduction of the Hexhead, I can't help but wonder what threads like this do to the resale value of 1150's.

When I go shopping for a used 1150 RT, I will ask the seller if the splines have failed and if so, when it was repaired. Will a bike be harder to sell (or worth less) if it still has the original splines?

 

For example: FS/2xxx R1150RT, silver,

low miles, lots of accessories, new tires and splines $x,xxx

 

Well...the old K-bikes had spline problems (if you didn't lube them) and they seem to hold their resale (if the seller can prove that the splines have been lubed regularly/recently).

 

If I were buying an oilhead, I'd want to know when/if the splines were last lubed. Ideally, I'd want pictures. If it all looked OK, I wouldn't worry about it.

[SWB]

"We are aware of the concerns being expressed through various websites. However, BMW is unaware of any cases which have been confirmed as a warrantable repair (a result of a defect in materials or workmanship). To date, we have found the vast majority of these complaints to be attributed to normal wear or external influence, such as misuse or neglect. However, we are still investigating this matter. We would strongly recommend you stay in contact with the service team at your BMW Retailer for further updates."

 

One can't believe everything on the internet. But then again, one can't believe everything he hears from a motorcycle manufacturer. Who should we believe? A hundred or 1000 BMW owners on this forum, or BMW?

 

As far as I'm concerned, if this is indeed BMW correspondence, BMW tossed their credibility in the toilet. We KNOW spline failures are occurring. You asked a legitimate question, i.e. if a "significant number of machines" were involved. BMW could have answered straight-up how many spline failures there were by simply checking computerized part inventory history. They know the answer. They gave a non-answer.

 

Second: "To date, we have found the vast majority of these complaints to be attributed to normal wear or external influence, such as misuse or neglect." Pardon my french, but what the ****? How can a rider misuse or neglect the drive splines? How many complaints have they received? How did they qualify the "vast majority" of these as normal wear and tear (at < 10K miles!!)?

 

Finally, they are aware of NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADDA confirmed cases of a warrantable repair in the tranmission/rear drive spline area? Heck, they must have the best engineered machines in the world, because EVERY machine experiences failures. No manufacturing process is perfect.

 

In case someone suspects I'm on a "crusade", or fronting for a Harley dealer, I'll be glad to chat over the phone. I just don't like being lied to. If this in fact is BMW's official response, they just told all BMW bike riders to go take a hike (to a Harley or Honda dealership?). Unbelievable. Maybe BMW hired Audi's marketing and legal guys.

[peterbulgar]

Scott,

Nothing wrong with being skeptical that I represented BMW's response accurately. Google "BMW Motorrad" and find the official site, navigate until you see the "contact us" button and go from there. Be courteous and concise. You will probably get the exact reply that I got.

 

Their response was not what I'd hoped for, but, frankly, more than I expected. Given the litigious nature of our society I wouldn't have been surprised to receive no reply whatsoever, or one that said even less. Maybe there really are a very small number of random machines that have been affected, and every single owner has posted to this list. Maybe the odds of having a problem are really very small. Maybe I'll win the lottery tonight and I won't have to worry about paying for transmission work down the line.

 

As for Harley and Honda, etc.: VFR electrical problems are fairly well known, and the Gold Wing's engine has to come out to replace the alternator, which is stressed and prone to failure. The Harley Twin Cam 88 engine had marginal cam bearings for several years, only fixed now on the '06 models. I've read that Harley recommends replacing the inner primary drive bearing every 15K miles on the new 6-speed, and changing the primary oil every 5K miles. This indicates a problem to me, but I've also read that Harley has recalled all the 6-speed bikes.

 

Does anyone make a 100K bike anymore? One that is almost guaranteed to reach six digits with no more maintenance than changing fluids, adjusting valves, and replacing consumables (filters, etc.)?

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[smiller]

Does anyone make a 100K bike anymore? One that is almost guaranteed to reach six digits with no more maintenance than changing fluids, adjusting valves, and replacing consumables (filters, etc.)?

 

Has anyone ever?

[mtwillyman]

Thatman,

I hope your bike will be fixed soon. South Sound BMW is one hell of a good shop. After the issues I've had with BMW's since my first oilhead, I wouldn't still be on a BMW if it were not for them. From my own experience I don't think BMW motorcycles are as reliable and owner maintainable as they were with the late airheads. I doubt they ever will be. You have a great dealer which is more then a lot of riders can say. The spline issue is strange to me because it only effects certain bikes at different mileage. Hopefully my 2005 GS ADV will hold up. Good luck with your bike. Let us know what happened please. Peace.

[Paul Mihalka]

Does anyone make a 100+K bike anymore? One that is almost guaranteed to reach six digits with no more maintenance than changing fluids, adjusting valves, and replacing consumables (filters, etc.)?

 

Has anyone ever?

My '99 R1100RT in it's first 100K miles had one stopping defect, a Hall sensor failure. At over 100K the clutch spline failed, which could have been prevented buy lubing service, which I do now. At 150K miles the rear drive failed. When I sold the bike with 170+K miles, the bike was in excellent shape and still is today with it's new owner.

[DogGone]

[quoteOne can't believe everything on the internet. But then again, one can't believe everything he hears from a motorcycle manufacturer. Who should we believe? A hundred or 1000 BMW owners on this forum, or BMW?

 

Ok, i was gonna leave this alone, but no. This is just going to far.

 

one hundred or 1000? Rightspin ran a survey among our merry band asking for data concerning drivetrain failures.

 

There were 39 responses to the survey.

These responses represented 38 individuals (lhilsa must have some real bad karma)

36 of the failures were listed as clutch, transmission, or final drive failures. I discarded the remaining three listed as engine.

5 of the 36 were on pre-1999 bikes.

6 of the 36 were on bikes with more than 80,000 miles on them.

15 of the 36 should have been within the warranty period/mileage

Only 8 of the 36 reported failures occurred on motorcycles built after 1998, with between 36,000 and 80,000 miles.

 

The breakdown by year for the 36

1995 - 1

1996 - 2

1997 - 1

1998 - 1

1999 - 10

2000 - 4

2001 - 3

2002 - 10

2003 - 2

2004 - 4

 

Using US sales figures from bmw, the two years with the highest reported failures, ‘99 (10,088 units sold) and ‘02 (13,507 units sold) represent .099% and .074% failure rate respectively. Now, I’m not suggesting for a minute that every failure was included in this survey, but the front page of this forum lists 9700 members.

 

Looking closer at the 2002 data, five of the ten were reported with less than 30,000 miles on the clock. A sixth was reported at 36141 miles and the remaining four were between 39,000 and 55,000 miles.

 

This is along the lines of what I was expecting. These numbers, even if you extrapolate them out to account for the general public who did not take part in the survey, do not support the contention that every bmw is a grenade waiting to go off. You read multiple comments like “it’s only a matter of time until it happens” or “I’m not buying a bmw until they sort out the problem” well, the problem, such as it is, seems to be related to 1999 and 2002 model years. This is missed by the vast majority of posters.

 

When you remove the high mileage bikes, and the bikes whose failures were covered under warranty this seems to be much ado about nothing.

 

Which brings me back to my original theme. It is easy for a vocal minority to give a skewed perspective on an issue. Question everything before picking up that banner and adding your voice to the choir.

 

pete

[russell_bynum]

When you remove the high mileage bikes, and the bikes whose failures were covered under warranty this seems to be much ado about nothing.

 

Unless you own a "high mileage bike" and were planning on keeping it a long time so you followed all of BMW's recommended maintenance, but had a $2500 failure anyway...which could have been prevented if BMW would recommend a maintenance interval for spline lubes. (Which they will not do because that would admit that they need it...which would be in direct contrast to their previous statements that they do not need it).

 

Or, if your annual vacation that you've saved and planned for all year was ruined because you had to spend it in a BMW Dealership waiting for the warranty repair to be done.

[DogGone]

Russell,

 

Have you any idea how many sets of chain and sprockets my Cagiva would go through in 80,000 miles. it would total far more than the cost of a final drive. Do you know the likelyhood of a broken chain whipping a hole in the crankcase? how much would that run?

 

That's assuming the bike would even hold together for 80k. I'll tell you this much, folks. If you are unsatisfied with the reliability, service intervals, or parts availability of a bmw, you never want to buy an Italian bike.

 

pete

[russell_bynum]

Have you any idea how many sets of chain and sprockets my Cagiva would go through in 80,000 miles. it would total far more than the cost of a final drive. Do you know the likelyhood of a broken chain whipping a hole in the crankcase? how much would that run?

 

Big difference. Chains and sprockets are a KNOWN, ADMITTED wear item. Every chain-driven motorcycle's owners manual tells you how to care for the chain and sprockets and how to tell when they're getting worn. I'm not going to be stranded in the middle of nowhere because my chain failed because Honda wouldn't admit that I needed to lube it every X miles.

[DogGone]

Everything is a wear item. Does bmw tell you when to change the wheel bearings? How about the oil pump? Main bearings? The list is endless.

 

Do we really need to be told that mechanical parts wear out with continued use? Buy a Ducati for a eye opening experience.

 

here's a recent story that illustrates some of the differences. The paint on my valve covers is flaking on my '04 Adventure. Dealer orders new ones and i'm waiting to go down and have them installed.

 

I'm telling this story to my Italian-bike riding freinds and they thought it was hilarious that us "bmw guys" would complain about something like that, and they still don't helieve that it's covered under warranty. There are a lot of great reasons to buy an Italian bike but flawless paint ain't one of them.

[smiller]

Everything is a wear item.

 

Yes, but when an item wears out matters too. Transmission input shaft spline failures should be extremely rare (as they are on almost any other vehicle one can name) and there is no acceptable excuse for any other condition.

[DogGone]

Everything is a wear item.

 

Yes, but when an item wears out matters too. Transmission input shaft spline failures should be extremely rare (as they are on almost any other vehicle one can name) and there is no acceptable excuse for any other condition.

 

They ARE extremely rare. I replaced the cv joints in my mazda at 55,000 miles. Bikes cannot be overbuilt to the same extent that cars/trucks can.

[smiller]

Bikes cannot be overbuilt to the same extent that cars/trucks can.

 

If being overbuilt is what it takes to keep splines together then virtually all other motorcycle manufacturers seem to be overbuilding their bikes.

[DogGone]

Bikes cannot be overbuilt to the same extent that cars/trucks can.

 

If being overbuilt is what it takes to keep splines together then virtually all other motorcycle manufacturers seem to be overbuilding their bikes.

 

Try a google newsgroup search using "yamaha final drive failure", just for fun.

 

I did.

[smiller]

Try a google newsgroup search using "yamaha final drive failure", just for fun.

Yes, by all means search Google Groups for "yamaha final drive failure" and then for "bmw final drive failure" and see whatcha get.

 

[SWB]

Scott,

Nothing wrong with being skeptical that I represented BMW's response accurately.

 

I had no doubt that your post was honest. I also believe the many reports we are seeing about spline failures, and even multiple spline failures on the same bike, are legitimate. I tossed that out for sake of objectivity in the discussion. One could argue that this whole thing has been blown out of proportion by panicky consumers or media types with an agenda (e.g. as actually occurred in the 1984-88 era Audi example I cited previously). All that is possible. I just don't believe it, and I don't believe BMW.

 

I've always loved BMW's (cars and bikes). I just "reentered " the street bike market, my first choice was also my first ride (2001 R1100RTP), I loved it, and I'm relatively happy with it even though I have about $1000-1500 of repairs (and/or enhancements) pending.

 

That said, having taken the plunge and enjoyed it enough that I know I'll be riding for a while, I've started shopping for my next ride. Due to circumstances and priorities (two high school seniors heading for college!), I'll probably be shopping rather carefully for a while, and the next ride won't be a new $18-20K R1200RT. However, I nearly bought a new (demo) 2004 R1150RT last weekend (I was about 30 minutes from writing the check).

 

After reading this thread and others, seeing BMW's response (or lack thereof), hearing some pretty serious horror stories (and having had one of my own already) with local dealerships, I'm rethinking everything. Right now I'm taking a serious look at the Honda ST and Yamaha FJR, and I like alot of what I see about both bikes.

 

My point is that I'm a "real world" BMW customer. This comment is "real world". Until about a month and a half ago, BMW "owned" this rider, this loyal customer, and they just lost that. I may still buy another Beemer, but I'm seriously looking at the competition.

 

Now, I'm not in the socio-economic demographic of the guy who buys new cars and replaces his Beemers every 2 years with the latest and greatest thing, so maybe BMW really isn't concerned. That is, maybe BMW considers me and my "kind" outside their target market area.

 

Whatever. I won't play $10-15K for a bike which is likely to incur $2-4K of major drivetrain repairs before it hits 20K miles (warranty or out of warranty). Heck, I could buy a Harley and do better than that.

 

I just imagine a comic strip with a Beemer rider walking into a dealership, in the typical "crashed-rider" pose (i.e. holding a set of handle bars, helmet cracked, glasses askew, body armor torn and ripped, rear wheel over his left shoulder), with the BMW rip looking at him and saying, "Spline problem? What spline problem? Our motorcycles have never had a spline problem. You must have been riding a Harley....".

 

Stuff like this just pisses you off.

[russell_bynum]

Everything is a wear item.

 

Yes, but when an item wears out matters too. Transmission input shaft spline failures should be extremely rare (as they are on almost any other vehicle one can name) and there is no acceptable excuse for any other condition.

 

Bingo. I expect the splines to stay in good shape without additional lubrication between clutch changes. Everytime I've got the bike apart for a clutch job, I'll lube the splines. That's how it works with every other vehicle that has a similar clutch/trans/engine setup (basically every rear-drive manual transmission car on the road). That's a reasonable expectation. If I need to lube the splines more often than that, then they should tell me how often it needs to be done.

 

Does bmw tell you when to change the wheel bearings? How about the oil pump? Main bearings? The list is endless.

 

No, but they should. I have to assume that when BMW designs (or sources) a part, they specify an intended lifespan for that part. THEY KNOW when this sh*t needs to be replaced/maintained, but they refuse to tell us. That's OK if you're the typical schmuck who buys a new bike every 2 years, but if you want the bike to last a long time, it sucks because you wind up guessing with a bunch of this stuff. We shouldn't have to guess...this is engineering. Someone knows how many miles my wheel bearings are designed to go, but they will not tell me, so I just have to guess.

 

It bothers me that I have to lube the splines between clutch jobs, but what REALLY bothers me is BMW MUST know that this is an issue but they refuse to say anything.

 

FWIW, They do the same thing with lots of parts on the cars now. They claim that the transmission fluid in their auto trannys are good for the lifetime of the transmission...which, when you think about it, makes perfect sense. They don't specify an interval because dumbass yuppies who buy BMW's these days aren't going to keep the cars long enough for it to matter. They can afford to piss off a few oddballs like me because four of my idiot co-workers will be sucked in by the marketing hype that "you never have to change the transmission fluid."

[russell_bynum]

I've always loved BMW's (cars and bikes). I just "reentered " the street bike market, my first choice was also my first ride (2001 R1100RTP), I loved it, and I'm relatively happy with it even though I have about $1000-1500 of repairs (and/or enhancements) pending.

 

That said, having taken the plunge and enjoyed it enough that I know I'll be riding for a while, I've started shopping for my next ride. Due to circumstances and priorities (two high school seniors heading for college!), I'll probably be shopping rather carefully for a while, and the next ride won't be a new $18-20K R1200RT. However, I nearly bought a new (demo) 2004 R1150RT last weekend (I was about 30 minutes from writing the check).

 

<hijack>

What for? What's wrong with your RTP? If you're happy with it, but want the 2-up capability, find a good used R1100RT. The resale sucks, so you can get one for next to nothing. For that matter, you could probably do that, yank the final drive, transmission, Hall sensor, and wheels off your RTP and sell the rest for parts. I'll bet you wouldn't lose more than $1000 in that whole deal and you'd have a stash of the expensive spares for your new bike.

[SWB]

Only 8 of the 36 reported failures occurred on motorcycles built after 1998, with between 36,000 and 80,000 miles.

 

Thanks, Pete. You've gone a long way towards qualifying the failure rate, and significance of the failure rate. Appreciate it. If you can do this based on an informal survey, why can't BMW do as much?

 

 

The breakdown by year for the 36

1995 - 1

1996 - 2

1997 - 1

1998 - 1

1999 - 10

2000 - 4

2001 - 3

2002 - 10

2003 - 2

2004 - 4

 

...

 

... if you extrapolate them out to account for the general public who did not take part in the survey, do not support the contention that every bmw is a grenade waiting to go off. ... [T]he problem, such as it is, seems to be related to 1999 and 2002 model years. This is missed by the vast majority of posters.

 

Hmmmm...2001 .... memo to self:

 

• 
  
• Do the spline lube BEFORE the next (60K) service interval. In fact, do it now!
  
• Never look at a 2002 RT again!
  
• Sell 2001 Beemer ASAP, right after the clutch R&R and spline lube.
  
• Now I know why the dealer service writer recommended I look for 2004 or later RT's.
  
• Check out the 2004 RT again, along with the ST and FJR.
  

 

Well, no one ever said riding moto's was free.

[SWB]

For that matter, you could probably do that, yank the final drive, transmission, Hall sensor, and wheels off your RTP and sell the rest for parts. I'll bet you wouldn't lose more than $1000 in that whole deal and you'd have a stash of the expensive spares for your new bike.

 

Now I really LIKE that. It's not often I find someone who "thinks" as cheap as I do. Now all I have to do is kick my 18 yr old son out of my new shed (which he took it over as HIS bike workshop), so I have place to store my "ready" spares.

 

(hijack? what's a hijack?? OHhhhhhhh.. what I've been doing. Regrets.)

[Thatman]

Thatman,

I hope your bike will be fixed soon. South Sound BMW is one hell of a good shop. After the issues I've had with BMW's since my first oilhead, I wouldn't still be on a BMW if it were not for them. From my own experience I don't think BMW motorcycles are as reliable and owner maintainable as they were with the late airheads. I doubt they ever will be. You have a great dealer which is more then a lot of riders can say.

 

This is good to hear. I should find out on Friday what is actually broken.

[No_Twilight]

 

Amazing. We don't even know what the failure is and the thread has taken a life of it's own full of spline failure rants. I'll go on record as saying up front (on another discussion board where thatman posted his failure first) that my guess would be NOT a spline failure. I won't be shocked if it is but my guess it that is isn't.

 

I don't think BMWs are the most reliable bikes in the world but they are pretty damn good. Remember that the internet makes it easy for us to find out bad news. Nobody posts good news. Notice that Thatman is a new member. He came here AFTER he had his failure. This also skews the data.

 

I'll provide a little other data (all in miles): I have 88k on my bike. I have friends with 237k, 87K, 70k, 130k, 8k, 55k, and 28k miles on their BMW bikes(some are estimates but all are within 10k). None of them have had a spline failure. Would I be willing to take my bike on a long vacation? See my post on Death Valley. How long would it have taken me to get parts to Death Valley (this was Christmas Day). My buddy with over 200k takes his on a 2wk vacation every year with his wife on the back. He has never spent his vacation in a BMW dealership. If you guys prefer to sit home and worry, that's fine but if you bought a Harley at least you'd have something to polish.

 

Ok, I'm exaggerating to give you a hard time. Please don't be offended and flame me back.

 

Ride hard and ride often,

Jerry

 

PS My complaint would be that the dealer has had it so long and hasn't taken it apart...another reason why I do my own work.

[No_Twilight]

Oops. I guess Thatman isn't a new member, he is just listed that way because he hasn't posted much. Sorry. --Jerry

[Stan Walker]

Nobody posts good news

 

Not true!!!! I just posted my spline lube results. At 69,166 they are in near perfect condition.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I shouldn't post about 'reliable splines' in this thread, breaks the mood....

 

Stan

(running for cover.........)

[Thatman]

Oops. I guess Thatman isn't a new member, he is just listed that way because he hasn't posted much. Sorry. --Jerry

 

That's ok. I don't really post here that much because honestly I am not into bike specific forums. As you do see I post on ST.N TONS but I figured that I should just give a data point to this board since it is bike specific.

 

I knjow the problem has to do with the clutch area but you are right. It could be transmission input splines or it could be clutch splines or something else. I'll let everyone know in a few days.

[No_Twilight]

Not true!!!! I just posted my spline lube results. At 69,166 they are in near perfect condition.

 

Yep. They look great. What made you take them apart? My guess is it was all the "sky is falling" posts here. cheers, Jerry

 

PS. This is my last spline lube rebuttal. I don't want to anger the godess of splines and end up with a failure myself...knock on wood???

[Thatman]

PS My complaint would be that the dealer has had it so long and hasn't taken it apart...another reason why I do my own work.

 

Yes this does bug me a bit BUT I figure since it wasn't like I am on a vacation or anything why push it to get done sooner?

 

The bike is my daily driver and I don't have a car of my own (my wife drives the only 4 wheeled vehicle we have, a '93 Bronco). But I am getting to ride her Fz6 around for awhile. I forget how much I like small bikes like the FZ6.

[steve.foote]

Nobody posts good news

 

Not true!!!! I just posted my spline lube results. At 69,166 they are in near perfect condition.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I shouldn't post about 'reliable splines' in this thread, breaks the mood....

 

Stan

(running for cover.........)

 

Ditto here. I inspected mine at 36k and they were like new. That good news was reported in this forum as were many of the other successful inspections.

 

The spline issue is a two edged sword. While the majority (vast majority I might say) of splines are most likely in excellent condition, there ARE a handful that have failed in normal use. The explainations vary as to the cause, but it is clear that the wear on the spline-failed bikes is not normal and can only be attributed to an assembly error, milling error or material defect.

 

Fortunately, for some, BMW has stepped up to the plate. Steve Hebert had his clutch and transmission replaced at 51k (well out of warranty) for $0.00. But I also know that there are others out there who came up snake eyes. I can understand why they wouldn't be happy about the situation.

[smiller]

Fortunately, for some, BMW has stepped up to the plate. Steve Hebert had his clutch and transmission replaced at 51k (well out of warranty) for $0.00. But I also know that there are others out there who came up snake eyes. I can understand why they wouldn't be happy about the situation.

 

And that's the real problem here. If BMW would just admit the problem and issue a service bulletin so that all affected customers would be treated equally and made whole then one could just chalk the whole thing up to one of those problems that occasionally occur with all manufacturers and make no more of it. It's forcing many customers to have to argue their point like a trial attorney or try to get a dealer to 'go to bat' for them in order to get equal treatment that is the shameful behavior on BMW's part.

[RickP]

Fortunately, for some, BMW has stepped up to the plate. Steve Hebert had his clutch and transmission replaced at 51k (well out of warranty) for $0.00. But I also know that there are others out there who came up snake eyes. I can understand why they wouldn't be happy about the situation.

 

And that's the real problem here. If BMW would just admit the problem and issue a service bulletin so that all affected customers would be treated equally and made whole then one could just chalk the whole thing up to one of those problems that occasionally occur with all manufacturers and make no more of it. It's forcing many customers to have to argue their point like a trial attorney or try to get a dealer to 'go to bat' for them in order to get equal treatment that is the shameful behavior on BMW's part.

 

I agree and I don't think they even need to do it for FREE. Say $500 "deductible" for 36-70K miles and $1000 for 70-120K and after that you're on your own. I think that most of us would be grudgingly satisfied with that. Although I'm sure Steve likes his outcome better.

 

-RickP, trans and clutch @ 12K for FREE.

[DogGone]

As some have pointed out, bmw certainly has accurate data regarding the failure rates. So why aren't they doing anything about this problem?

 

 

Here's another of my radical thoughts, maybe the data shows that there ISN'T a problem. If bmw sells 13,000 bikes, 10,000 of which are shaft drive and 5 of them suffer a premature failure, that equates to a 0.05% failure rate.

 

Insignificant.

[TPadden]

Here's another of my radical thoughts, maybe the data shows that there ISN'T a problem. If bmw sells 13,000 bikes, 10,000 of which are shaft drive and 5 of them suffer a premature failure, that equates to a 0.05% failure rate.

 

Insignificant.

If it were insignificant BMW could just give new bikes to those 5 poor souls that suffered premature failure (as far as a spline is concerned any failure is premature in my book) and we wouldn't be discussing it. Perhaps then they wouldn't be loosing customers. ......

Then again, perhaps it's the customers that they are loosing that are insignificant.

 

My other BMW is an LT, LT's also have an insignificant rear drive bearing failure that also isn't a problem but is really driving those .05% owners batty.

[DogGone]

Ok, I've learned my lesson. I will stop trying to deprive people of their misery. It seems to be all that keeps some of you going.

 

pete

[TPadden]

I will stop trying to deprive people of their misery. It seems to be all that keeps some of you going.

pete

 

Yep - your attempt was about as effective as BMW's! What we really need are psychologists not mechanics to fix our BMW's.

 

Don't get me wrong - I love my bikes; just hate the company! The only reason I still own them is the wonderful dealer in Bentonville, Ar ( I have to drive 3.5 hours each way to get to the nearest dealer; but that's another whine). Will I buy another?

[Thatman]

Ok guys got an update from the dealer.

 

The input shaft to the tranny is toast and the clutch splines went bubye. They said everything will be fixed under warrenty so that is good. He offered for me to come on down within the next week while it is apart and check it out.

 

So if I get a chance I'll drive down tommorrow and get some photos.

[Paul Mihalka]

Ok guys got an update from the dealer.

 

The input shaft to the tranny is toast and the clutch splines went bubye. They said everything will be fixed under warrenty so that is good. He offered for me to come on down within the next week while it is apart and check it out.

 

So if I get a chance I'll drive down tommorrow and get some photos.

Your bike has only 17K miles. That is way too early for a wear/tear spline failure. If they just replace the clutch and the input shaft in the same gearbox, it probably will happen again soon. I hope it is not somewhere in the middle of nowhere. On my '02 R1150R the splines failed at 30K. Yes, it was among cotton fields in eastern Arkansas. Bike was out of warranty, but we installed a complete new gearbox with some help from BMWNA.

[No_Twilight]

 

I almost posted the same thing about 30 minutes ago but decided others respond first. Isn't i likely an alignment problem that can be replace with a new transmission case? --jerry

[smiller]

Isn't i likely an alignment problem that can be replace with a new transmission case?

 

That seems to be the prevailing view which seems to be supported by some evidence. In any event, as Paul noted splines don't wear out in 17k miles. Even if they were bone dry I wouldn't expect any noticeable wear at such a low mileage, in fact I'll bet my bike went at least twice that with dry splines and they were just fine when I finally got in there to look at them. Something caused the low-mileage failure and if I was the owner I would want to know what that was. Short of the dealer actually having the equipment and experience to measure the shaft alignment the safest course of action would be to replace the entire tranny.

[No_Twilight]

hey, this isn't exactly peak riding season up there in WA so the dealer should have bikes sitting around. I'd press him for a loaner...although you said you have another fun bike to ride, didn't you...

 

--Jerry

[Thatman]

Ok I went and got some photos. I made a photo gallary for them over at http://www.chrisburgess.com/clutch-splines.htmOh man...that input shaft looks to be completely screwed. In talking with the techs the comment to me was that this sort of thing happens and they don't know exactly why but they believe it to be a manufactoring defect. They were very frank about that and I found it very interesting that they were. It is also VERY refreshing to know that they didn't act like they were trying to hide anything or "protect the company line."

 

They are replacing the clutch and the input shaft. No new transmission. I know I know...but whatcha gonna do?

 

While I was taking some photos one of the tech's who's name is Fred asked if he could answer any questions. So I asked some questions and we BSed for a little bit. He told me he's been working on BMW's since 1984. I was very surprised but he definatly has some experience on them. Anyhow I asked about my clutch disk to see if perhaps I had been toasting it (cause I wonder from me slipping the clutch) and he said it looked normal. Quite a shame actually because it is just getting broken in.

 

Anyhow I should get the bike back in a week or 2.

[smiller]

They are replacing the clutch and the input shaft. No new transmission. I know I know...but whatcha gonna do?

 

It's hard to tell because the picture is a little blurry but it kind of looks like there may be a lot of misalignment wear there (shown as more wear towards the center of the spline shaft vs. the end.) In which case... if they don't replace the transmission... I hope whatcha gonna do is not experience another failure in another 20k miles...

[Stan Walker]

They are replacing the clutch and the input shaft

 

This is the typical wear pattern that we see in most?/all? of the failing input shaft splines.

 

If it was my bike I would want to determine the alignment between the input shaft and the clutch pressure disk. Ideally the input shaft should be exactly perpendicular to the pressure plate. If not I would expect the pattern you are seeing. Also the center of the input shaft should be exactly in line with the center of the crankshaft, but I don't think this is critical or that it produces this type of wear pattern.

 

My two cents, but I am NOT a professional mechanic or even a mechanical engineer. So take it for what it's worth.

[Thatman]

Yes the part of the input shaft splines that is nearest to the part that isn't used is worn the most and then it tapers off to the end of the splines. Think of it the pattern as a corkscrew pattern.

 

Sorry about the blurry picture. Its hard to tell if you got the picture or not on the back of the camera's lcd screen.

 

As to if it will fail in the next 20k miles. I'll likely not have the bike in 20k miles but I don't know for sure as I am in the middle of a bike quandry. I was there before the bike failed so it wasn't the failure that got me thinking.

[Kenny2]

"When my splines died..."

The rebuild included the bushings and shims in the tranny. Also, the clutch.

 

Oh yeah, it was at 26,xxx.

[Thatman]

Well I get the bike back tommorrow. The replaced the clutch disc, input shaft and seal. Well see how it runs and it is time for its oil change and valve check (like I was orginally planning before this all happened)

[SWB]

This is the typical wear pattern that we see in most?/all? of the failing input shaft splines.

 

If it was my bike I would want to determine the alignment between the input shaft and the clutch pressure disk. Ideally the input shaft should be exactly perpendicular to the pressure plate. If not I would expect the pattern you are seeing. Also the center of the input shaft should be exactly in line with the center of the crankshaft, but I don't think this is critical or that it produces this type of wear pattern.

 

You touched on something I've been wondering about (re: spline failures), but couldn't quite put into words. I've seen posts speculating that the small percentage of spline failures could be due to an (OEM factory) "alignment" problem. I'm wondering if it's as simple as screwing up the guide pin and shaft alignment when the tranny is mounted. Or, if it's something more "permanent", like a poorly formed transmission or engine case casting, or the bushing installation where the drive shaft passes through? (See, I still can't put this into words.)

 

My main reason for concern is for when I (eventually, finally) replace my clutch and do the spline lube. It'd be ironic if I took a perfectly fine working RT and screwed it up by doing the preventive maintenance wrong. I wonder how much of this problem is avoidable human error (i.e. the factory tech goofed during original installation), and how much is attributable to a part error (malformed casting, bushing, shaft, etc.) that could have caused the alignment, and thereby the failed spline problem.