My RT took a crap today...

[Thatman]

I don't visit here too often but I thought it would be good to post my experience with my 2004 RT today. On the way back home in Tacoma on I-5 I went to accelerate and nothing. For some reason I upshifted and still no power. The engine reved but I was not accelerating.

 

So I rowed through the gears thinking maybe I just crapped out of a gear and nothing.

 

So I was fortunatlly able to get off the freeway safetly at the next exit while coasting. I got a tow to the nearest BMW dealership which is South Sound BMW in Tacoma (the exit after the one I took. )

 

Anyhow the deal is that when the bike is on the center stand, running, in 1st gear, clutch engaged with the rear wheel off the ground, the wheel would spin at a rate that looked ok. Once that tire hits the ground it stopped spinning. The motor continued to run and a horrible grinding sound started up in the area of the clutch (not positive as there was freeway noise in the background).

 

Basically any time the clutch was engaged (in gear or in neutral) it made that nice horrible grinding noise. If the bike is not running and you put it into gear and spin the rear tire it make the nice grinding noise then. Quieter and slower in frequency but it is there.

 

So I'll find out next week Friday what is wrong with the bike as that is the next available appointment. I live 40miles north of where it crapped out so it is a pain but at least it is in the middle of the winter and I wasn't on a trip.

 

Edit: I should also add that the bike was purchased Dec 26th, 2003 and has 17,222 miles on the clock.

[Pilgrim]

Sounds like one of the earliest clutch spline failures we've seen yet, eh, guys?

 

Pilgrim

[russell_bynum]

Sounds like one of the earliest clutch spline failures we've seen yet, eh, guys?

 

Pilgrim

 

Yep.

[Thatman]

And just think about 8k miles ago I thought about tearing it all down to check the splines and lube them. But I desided against it as I was tired of working on my bikes (took a spill on my track bike so I had to fix it)

 

At least it happened well within the warrenty period.

[beemerman2k]

Sounds like one of the earliest clutch spline failures we've seen yet, eh, guys?

 

Pilgrim

 

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, but at 70K miles! This is the earliest case I ever heard of.

[ednap]

Sorry to hear about the failure. Trust it will be fixed and back on the road again soon. Not the nicest gift for Chrissy though

[Cali Kid]

Well if that doesn't sound familiar... God I'm sick of reading about this crap. It's not your post, but BMWs "hear no evil, see no evil, don't admit anything" attitude to this issue. I won't support a company that won't support its customers, no matter how much I like the product....Sorry don't mean to rant.

 

I'm going to stick my neck out (very little) and suggest that the failure is stripped splines in the clutch disk, with collateral damage to the tranny splines.

The earliest failure I read about went at 10K, and again at 18K, same bike. There are many others to varying degrees. Don't believe for a second that the problem is fixed cause the dealer says so once you get it back. At the very least make'em replace the entire tranny, it's your best hope of addressing the issue over the long term. I doubt that lubing the splines would have done anything to prevent the failure, only postpone it. The reality is that no one has the solved problem or admitted it.

 

Anyway, be glad its warranty, good luck.

[Thatman]

Well if that doesn't sound familiar... God I'm sick of reading about this crap. It's not your post, but BMWs "hear no evil, see no evil, don't admit anything" attitude to this issue. I won't support a company that won't support its customers, no matter how much I like the product....Sorry don't mean to rant.

 

I'm going to stick my neck out (very little) and suggest that the failure is stripped splines in the clutch disk, with collateral damage to the tranny splines.

The earliest failure I read about went at 10K, and again at 18K, same bike. There are many others to varying degrees. Don't believe for a second that the problem is fixed cause the dealer says so once you get it back. At the very least make'em replace the entire tranny, it's your best hope of addressing the issue over the long term. I doubt that lubing the splines would have done anything to prevent the failure, only postpone it. The reality is that no one has the solved problem or admitted it.

 

Anyway, be glad its warranty, good luck.

 

While I was hanging around the dealer waiting for the wife to come pick me up (through some of the worst traffic in that area which was odd for some reason) one of the people behind the counter asked if he could help me out (stupid me I can't help myself and not buy stuff). I told him my angst and he was like, "Wow is there a recall on that?" I told him, "Not that I know of."

 

If the failure is what you are guessing at I would think it would be very difficult to convince them to replace the tranny. Has anyone had luck getting that to happen?

[gmac]

I WROTE A THREAD ON CATASTROPHIC CLUTCH FAILURE AND THE MANAGEMENT OF THIS BOARD DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR IT.

 

Adminstrator Edit (for the record I've deleted a multi-paragraph rant, all written in capitals):

Gary, it's not that we don't want to hear it. We've heard about it plenty and will continue to hear about it. Open sharing is one of the things this board is about. What we don't want, and what we will not allow this board to be used for, is someone's crusade, or as an attempt to build a legal case or suggest building a legal case. If you feel one is warranted, there are other ways of coming by the information and best of luck to you. This is a privately owned site. Those are the rules you agreed to when you signed on.

[Boffin]

1. don't SHOUT.

2. Your earlier post did not read like a post on spline failure and if you had bothered to research past threads here you would have seen it has been discussed in detail several times in the past without ranting.

3. 'management' of the board did not object to the contents your post, some members objected to the style of it.

 

Cya, Andy

[gmac]

OK, I do agree that ranting is not the way, nor the intent.

Also, Capital Letters do not mean yelling to everyone, that is just agreed upon. The real issue is not just spline failure, but as we will find out from this first post, his cost if not under warranty will possibly go into 1800 dollars and up (just an educated guess and agreed no basis yet on this particular one, based upon others that I have info on).It is much more than spline failure. The point is again that BMW should be paying for this, all of it even out of warranty if it can be shown to be defective parts, and that is the message I wanted to get out to those not knowledgeable on this subject. And keep your records of the service completed for the future, as a bike that has this happen, may have additional problems in the future. I know also many of you know all about this subject, but many do not.

[Boffin]

In this case his bike is still under warranty, so the cost will not be known to us. I agree that there seems to be a problem, though from earler technical discussions I do not think it is the clutch or transmission shaft that is at fault. The pattern of wear seen on partially failed units suggest a mis-alignment issue, with the clutch housing being the likely culprit. The worse the mis-alignment the faster the fault appears. This would also explain why bikes that fail once tend to fail again, the parts showing the wear are a symptom, not the cause.

Given BMW's track record, they will not acknowledge that a problem exists, but may engineer a fix on later builds. To date '02 model year bikes are over-represented in the sample of failed machines. Perhaps as more miles are put on to later year bikes that will change. I see that the OP's bike is an '04. Mine is a European '04 with just under 29K miles, which is probably an US '05 (there were a few '05 1150s) and I was hoping that the problem would have been sorted before mine was built. It may not be the case though. BTW, the UK warranty is 2 years unlimited mileage, so I run out of cover in March - I may well take up BMW UK's extended warranty cover at that time.

 

Cya, Andy

 

 

[RickP]

sorry man, but yours probably looks like mine:

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/595866/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

 

53 weeks, 12K miles old.

 

Good news - I received a new trans and complete clutch assy. under warranty. I paid 0$ to dealer.

 

Bad news - took five weeks of prime fall riding season.

 

Bah, humbug! At least we were both close to home.

 

-RickP.

[peterbulgar]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Your bike should still be in warranty and I hope that you will be on your way soon. If the failure is consistent with similar failures that have been reported on this and other lists, the input shaft on your transmission will be damaged and BMW will replace the transmission as well as the clutch plate. As they should.

 

This is one of several sites that I belong to and check periodically, and I also subscribe to MCN. The spline failure issue has appeared periodically on all the websites and in MCN. There is some overlap (the same failure shows up on multiple sites) but not complete overlap, so the total number of problems is greater than it appears if you just look at one source. The manager of the service department at my dealer, whom I trust, told me that he has seen no more than one or two such failures.

 

Here are the theories that I've seen for this type of failure:

1) Inadequate lubrication of the clutch/input shaft splines at the factory and/or poor quality lubricant.

2) Faulty parts - poor heat-treating of the input shaft or clutch disk on some machines.

3) A mis-alignment of the clutch housing and transmission such that the clutch plate does not make even contact with the input shaft splines.

4) Bad design. The input shaft and/or clutch plate are not supported adequately, and depend on perfect alignment of the cases to do their job properly.

 

The problem has shown up as early as 10K miles, or as late as 60K miles. It seems to show up more on RTs, and on the 2000-2004 models. Some poor owners have suffered multiple, low-mileage failures. From everything I've read or heard, there is no consensus as to where the problem lies - just theories and speculation (see above). I have to think that BMW knows what is causing the problem, because it must be costing them a lot of money in warranty repairs and they would want to solve it.

 

If anyone has another theory (besides the ones I outlined above) as to the cause of this problem, please add it.

 

If anyone knows a BMW tech who has inside knowledge, or has an in with BMWNA, please share.

 

If anyone is an engineer or master mechanic and can comment on any changes that BMW has made on the R1200 series that seem to address this problem, please let us know.

 

Most of us will never have a problem, but until this issue is resolved we can never have the full confidence in our machines that the name BMW should imply.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA (23K miles and no problems)

[bmwmick]

Here are the theories that I've seen for this type of failure:

1) Inadequate lubrication of the clutch/input shaft splines at the factory and/or poor quality lubricant.

2) Faulty parts - poor heat-treating of the input shaft or clutch disk on some machines.

3) A mis-alignment of the clutch housing and transmission such that the clutch plate does not make even contact with the input shaft splines.

4) Bad design. The input shaft and/or clutch plate are not supported adequately, and depend on perfect alignment of the cases to do their job properly.

 

My humble opinion is #3 and #4 collectively. Numbers 1 and 2 are NOT the cause of the catastrophic failures.

 

This same problem plagued a few K-bikes in the past decade or so too. They had a batch of ill-machined bellhousings (intermediate housings) that caused an angular misalignment very similar to the Oilhead problems. I've seen K-bikes that would eat the clutch hub and transmission input shaft in 20K mile intervals.

 

Mick

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Something similar happened on my '04 GS Adventure but it was not a spline failure. The transmission input shaft support bearing failed and caused the destruction of the entire clutch assembly as well as some internals in the transmission. BMW picked up the tab for the whole thing even though the bike was well out of warranty at 61K miles. There is hope.

[Thatman]

sorry man, but yours probably looks like mine:

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/595866/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

 

53 weeks, 12K miles old.

 

Good news - I received a new trans and complete clutch assy. under warranty. I paid 0$ to dealer.

 

Bad news - took five weeks of prime fall riding season.

 

Bah, humbug! At least we were both close to home.

 

-RickP.

 

In that thread you stated:

 

Looking back, I did have warnings: balky down-shifting at slow speeds frequently when coming to a stop. And the last two or three weeks before failure--stinky smell and heat on my right calf when stopped.

 

that is interesting because in the past few days my bike has really had a bad smell to it when I get home and park it into the garage. I blamed it on the cat with it just getting wet around here again after being dry for weeks.

 

Maybe there was something more to it.

 

 

And at least it waited until Winter (first day of winter that is) for it to fail.

[smiller]

I have to think that BMW knows what is causing the problem, because it must be costing them a lot of money in warranty repairs and they would want to solve it.

Yes, given the frequency of the failure and unfettered access to dealer repair data one would have to imagine that BMW must know exactly why this is happening by now. That must make it doubly frustrating for each owner affected by this issue to have to negotiate proper repairs with their dealer... there really should be a service bulletin and a standard repair method (checking transmission case alignment if indeed that is the cause of the problem.)

 

I have to say that the wear patterns seen on many of the failed splines and the fact that some bikes fail quickly and repeatedly while others run well past 100k with no problems at all does seem to suggest that this is an alignment or assembly problem rather than a materials or design issue.

[DogGone]

I have to think that BMW knows what is causing the problem, because it must be costing them a lot of money in warranty repairs and they would want to solve it.

Yes, given the frequency of the failure and unfettered access to dealer repair data one would have to imagine that BMW must know exactly why this is happening by now. ...

 

Well, if you look at it from a dispassionate, purely financial point of view, it may be that BMW has determined that it costs less to fix them after they break than to inspect every bike out there. These are not life threatening failures.

 

How many hours of labor to remove and inspect every transmission? Just to catch the small percent that will fail. It might even be that they can't easily determine which will fail. I used to work in a machine shop and it takes training and equipment to check paralellism, flatness, runout, etc. most shops have neither the training or equipment.

 

I'm not saying this course of action is right, but it might not be that bmw is stupid or out of touch. They are in business to make money and this could be the best business solution.

 

pete

[Ralph]

Sorry to hear you are mhaving troubles. Keep us informed. Been there, done that.

[SteveHebert]

I pick my 02 RT up tomorrow from Bogart's. It has just under 51K on it and the tranny and clutch assembly were replaced without a penny from me. BMW is starting to admit an alignment issue. It is just difficult to find a service manager and area rep that is willing to go at bat for you. It can happen, so keep trying. Of course your's is under warranty so no matter how it is fixed, the problem will be addressed with your RT.

 

Good luck.

[beemerman2k]

Well, if you look at it from a dispassionate, purely financial point of view, it may be that BMW has determined that it costs less to fix them after they break than to inspect every bike out there. These are not life threatening failures.

 

Actually, they are.

 

My input shaft went at 10PM heading northbound on the 5 freeway here in Los Angeles. I was in the number 1 lane (far left) when suddenly I had no power at all. Cars were whizzing past me and there was nothing I could do except put on my emergency flashers and do my best to coast to the side of the road. Finally, an 18 wheeler blocked for me so I could get over. Had he not done so, I would have been a total sitting duck in the middle of the freeway coasting and trying to dodge the cars flying by. And had I gotten hit and killed, it would have been classified as a "motorcycle accident" and noone would have thought that maybe my input shaft had gone and therefore I was powerless to do anything out there.

 

This IS a life threatening problem.

[SWB]

They are in business to make money and this could be the best business solution.

 

It may be the best business solution from the warranty/repair/recall perspective, but what will product unreliability do to new BMW sales. Between the price increases and power train unreliability, depressed sales are an inevitable result. If BMW's most avid customers (folks like us, on this forum and the ibmwr board) are concerned, and perhaps are thinking twice about their next BMW purchase, what chance will BMW have for further market penetration in the USA. (I wonder how the European folks fell about the product, if they're having the same rate of powertrain failure.)

 

I'm on my first (very used) BMW. I love it. I looked long and hard before I purchased my first street bike in 20 years, and fell in love with the RT. However, I also "loved" my last street bike, which was a nearly indestructable and ultra-smooth running Honda. Frankly, the spline failure thing, and the high labor cost of doing anything near the Tranny and clutch area on an RT, has me nervous as hell. If I had $15-20K extra in my budget to pickup up a pretty new bike, I would. If I can't afford that, I certainly can't afford to drop $2K++ every 10K miles or so for major power train work.

 

In short, the same way Beemer owners talk up the product, word about systemic problems gets around twice as fast. Along with the 10-15% price increases, doubt about the product is going to kill sales pretty darn quick. (Just ask Audi about their famous "Audi 5000" model; I bought mine for 20,000 and sold it for $2500 four years later - real sweet deal.)

 

BMW will have to address the engineering problem, or they're not going to sell a lot of new bikes. I've seen a lot of 2004/2005 RT's on the market at relative discounts, and though I want one, and I have the cash to pay for one (heck.. college is overrated; my kids don't REALLY need it ), I'm not buying. I don't want to lose another $15-20K investment on another Audi (figuratively thinking). I'm not buying a 2002-2004 BMW, and won't be in the market for a 2005-2006 until I'm convinced the powertrain is reliable. When I find a 2004/5 with low miles, can I trust it? If a mechanic "checks it out", and it appears in perfect running order, how will I know it is, unless I spend $2000 to pull the rear end apart and look at the drive train and tranny. And if the problem is a factory misalignment that can't be resolved at a repair shop, how can I trust ANY BMW RT? After a guy gets stung once or twice, he's going to dump the bike, so my assumption is that all the good looking BMW RT deals at auction or in cycle trader are from guys bailing out, selling their lemon.

 

For now, I'll ride my 2001 RT, replace the clutch and lube the splines, and send my kids to college. A new Beemer is going to wait. If my RT fails, a Honda ST may be in my future (unless my brighter kid goes on to grad school).

[DogGone]

Well, if you look at it from a dispassionate, purely financial point of view, it may be that BMW has determined that it costs less to fix them after they break than to inspect every bike out there. These are not life threatening failures.

 

Actually, they are.

 

My input shaft went at 10PM heading northbound on the 5 freeway here in Los Angeles.

 

...

 

I would have been a total sitting duck in the middle of the freeway coasting and trying to dodge the cars flying by. And had I gotten hit and killed, it would have been classified as a "motorcycle accident" and noone would have thought that maybe my input shaft had gone and therefore I was powerless to do anything out there.

 

This IS a life threatening problem.

 

That's kind of what I meant, but didn't express very well. There would be no way to directly tie the failure to your death, so from the court's point of view, and bmw's point of view, it isn't a life threatening issue.

 

Don't think that i was defending their position, just trying to explain it.

 

pete

[Pilgrim]

I guess the most discouraging thing about all this is that there are so many instances of it being a multiple-time event on one bike. In other words, just 'cause they fix it doesn't mean it won't happen again.

 

Or if it's fixed by one of "those" dealers, that they won't screw something else up in the process.

 

And the mileage spread during which it might take place is so broad that it's impossible at some point to breathe a sigh of relief and quit worrying about it.

 

Pilgrim

[JamesW]

It is interesting to note that spline failure for whatever reasons have been a problem for BMWs dating back to the seventies before the oilhead was introduced. I first became aware of the need to lubricate splines in the mid eighties on my '79 R100T and just last summer lubricated clutch splines on my '75 R75/6. I think spline failure seemed to increase after introduction of the R100 models in '77. Now, that's a lot of years for a problem especially a mechanical problem to exist without a permanent solution or even a determination of what exactly is going on. Wish I knew because spline lube on an R1150 is one heck of a lot more complicated than on an airhead. I would like to know about when the issue of spline failure really did surface.

[peterbulgar]

James said:

"It is interesting to note that spline failure for whatever reasons have been a problem for BMWs dating back to the seventies before the oilhead was introduced. I first became aware of the need to lubricate splines in the mid eighties on my '79 R100T and just last summer lubricated clutch splines on my '75 R75/6."

 

I sold my '76 R90/6 with 155K miles on it. The clutch splines were lubed when the clutch was replaced at 120K miles. My '73 R75/5 has 185K miles on it. As far as I know the only time the clutch splines were lubed is when the transmission was replaced (with a 5-speed) at 130K miles and the clutch was replaced at the same time. So from my experience it is a very long range maintenance item that could be done when the clutch needed replacing. Those bikes have 1/3 less horsepower than our oilheads. Perhaps it is a marginal design that works OK for relatively low power output. I'd really like to know if the new 1200 driveline has been changed in this area.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[JamesW]

Peter, I suspect you are right in that spline failure is adversely affected by increases in power. It would just be logical to assume that. There have been threads upon threads discussing this issue on many forums and I bet it will not end anytime soon. Now the R1200 produces even more power and it should be interesting to see how the splines are affected. I can't understand why the output shaft splines can be damaged if the clutch splines are of a softer material. That's assuming they are softer. I also can't understand why spline failure is not preceded by some tell tale symptom like hard shifting. I really wish we had an answer.

[Paul Mihalka]

Some comments: clutch spline failure or lack of lubrication IS preceded by hard or inconsistent down shifting. I know of many cases where there was a complaint of hard shifting, and removing the gearbox showed splines in good condition but super dry. A lube jobe fixed it.

My '74 R90S had a spline failure at 50K miles, but it had many race track laps on it. That's when I learned that spline lubing is a good thing.

[smiller]

I know of many cases where there was a complaint of hard shifting, and removing the gearbox showed splines in good condition but super dry. A lube jobe fixed it.

 

As was the case with me. I didn't notice the degradation in shift quality since new but when I performed a spline lube the improvement in clutch & shift action was very apparent. While my splines were bone dry (and probably had been for a while) I didn't see any alarming wear or pattern to be concerned about, and for all I know they could have stayed dry and held together forever. Lack of lube can lead to poor shifting and a hard clutch pull but I'm no longer of the opinion that lack of lube is causing the lion's share of the problems, or at least not in the oilheads. I think there is some other factor at work, and from the pictures of failed splines that I've seen it looks like an alignment issue. That's why several of us question the replacement of the clutch disk and input shaft alone as a real fix.

[flatbutt]

is there any way to introduce lube to the shaft splines w/out breaking the bike in two? Can lube be inserted say by removing the starter?

[Paul Mihalka]

is there any way to introduce lube to the shaft splines w/out breaking the bike in two? Can lube be inserted say by removing the starter?

There was a thread on that. The short answer is no.

[russell_bynum]

The most infuriating thing is that BMW cars don't have this problem. In other words, BMW understands how to build stuff so that splines don't fail, but they choose not to.

[DogGone]

The most infuriating thing is that BMW cars don't have this problem. In other words, BMW understands how to build stuff so that splines don't fail, but they choose not to.

 

So sell the bmw and buy a honda, seriously, what does this endless wailing and gnashing of teeth accomplish?

[Thatman]

On my bike I experienced no hard or difficult down shifts. I did run into a couple of hard upshifts but I blame that on not pulling the clutch in enough before I tried to shift. Riding multiple bikes all which shift differently causes this once in awhile.

[Pilgrim]

The most infuriating thing is that BMW cars don't have this problem. In other words, BMW understands how to build stuff so that splines don't fail, but they choose not to.

 

So sell the bmw and buy a honda, seriously, what does this endless wailing and gnashing of teeth accomplish?

 

One thing for sure: it gets it off our collective chests.

 

The other is maybe. Maybe BMW NA will read all these squawks and realize they have a real problem out here that's going to cost them business. But hoping that they will pay attention presupposes that they give a damn if they sell more bikes or not.

 

Pilgrim

[DogGone]

I think it's a bit naive to think that bmw will respond to the postings on forums. For several reasons, consider;

 

1. There really isn't any proof that i, or anyone else on these forums actually owns the bike in question.

2. Even if you assume that everyone here does own a bmw, there's really no proof, from our posts, that we experienced a failure.

3. When you actually tally up the numbers of individuals who claim to have experienced a failure, it seems pretty low. Remember, you have to throw out all of the "a mechanic told me..." and "it's a well known fact" stories.

4. For the sake of arguement, let's say that there really is a problem. BMW seems to be happy catering to a niche market. They aren't trying to match honda's market share and there will always be sufficient numbers of people who want "something different". They don't care if the new buyers are repeat bmw customers, they just want to sell a small number of bikes.

 

Now i think i've hijacked this thread way too far. Apologies to the original poster. If you want to continue this, let's start a new thread.

 

pete

[Cali Kid]

So sell the bmw and buy a honda,

 

DONE!

 

Love the VFR, its wet clutch, and don't mind replacing a chain once in a while. I'll find something to bitch about

 

Actually, in response to Russells post below, its not the bike that I find so offending, its BMWs refusal to step up to the plate. Also the inconsistency of service from one rep to the next. NorCal rep is an ass#$%%. I've heard dealers don't even like him.

 

However, one service guy told me the he'd replace the tranny if it was his . That was his way of helping me without admitting anything. He couldn't do more because the rep had already said it was my problem. OK, find yourself another customer, I said. I will not own another BMW, as much as I love the RT. BMW will respond when the bottom line starts dragging on the ground. My experience did sour me, I admit it. I find the magnitude of the problem one that is unacceptable, unless there was some policy developed to address it. This isn't a crusade, but if anyone asks, I'll be happy to relate my experience and tell them why I think they shouldn't support BMW.

Just to make it clear, this is not a BMW thing. If I had the same issue with the Honda, I'd be on V-Strom.

[russell_bynum]

Check my Avatar, I have a Honda. Great bike.

 

It is entirely possible to recognize that there is a design problem, complain about the design problem, and still like the rest of the bike enough to keep it.

[SWB]

Even if you assume that everyone here does own a bmw, there's really no proof, from our posts, that we experienced a failure.

 

That dog won't hunt. BMW has a computerized inventory system. They know to an assembly and per part line item the rate of failure, particularly within the power train, because they're supplying the replacement parts. BMW knows precisely the scope of the problem, and after eight or ten years, the cause as well

 

BMW owners are using this web site because we like our Beemers. If the BMW marketing types are ignoring this board, then BMW deserves it's fate. If I'm a business, and there are 100's or 1000's of happy owners creating BLOG's all over the planet telling the glories of my product, I'm a pretty lucky fellow, and I'm going to read everything they say about my product. If I'm that lucky fellow, and those same enthusiasts start rumbling about some sort of a problem, even it's the heated grips malfunctioning, dingy looking paint, i.e. minor stuff, I'm going to be SCREAMING about it to my techs. I'm also going to be making contact with these customers to verify the scope of the perceived problem.

 

I say "perceived", because even if it's not a legitimate technical problem, if the customer perceives it to be a problem, then I'd better fix my product. Again, the Audi 5000 history is a very apt example (and a precedent that could not possibly be lost on a German company). The "problem" was probably bogus, i.e. transmissions which suddenly placed themselves into gear and ran forward uncontrollably, as "documented" by the hacks on "60 Minutes". In reality, the problem was that a certain statistical percentage of people step on the gas when they should be stepping on the brake, and the percentage for Audi's was no worse than for any other make. The problem was a total construct of "60 Minutes". It nearly ruined Audi. I had a wonderful 5 speed , 5 cyl Audi 5000 which still to this day, was the nicest car I'd ever owned. But I lost 90% of the value of my investment in four years (ironically, on a car that demonstrably did NOT have the problem because it was a stick, not an automatic). When Audi offered to make it up to me by selling me a steeply discounted new Audi (as a "loyal, dedicated Audi owner", I told them to take a hike. I'll never own another Audi, the same way some former Beemer owners who experienced power train problems will never ride another one. They may have loved their RT's, but once burned there are enough alternatives that they don't have to play "Charlie Brown" to the manufacturer's "Lucy".

 

Again, I do own an RT, I love it, I want to upgrade to a 2004/5 (perhaps a close out, or a used one), but I decided not to pull the trigger when I considered my prior Audi experience. (The German origin of both products is irrelevant.) I still might upgrade, but as I said previously, I'm holding out for a while.

 

Am I "faking" this? Am I more "irrational" than the average BMW owner. Perhaps I don't fit BMW's desired income demographic. Whatever the case may be, I am a dedicated BMW owner, and BMW has lost a replacement sale. The marketing guys ought to be all over nervous owners like me like white-on-rice to explain why my RT has a low probability of experiencing a transmission/spline failure. If they can't retain current owners, any hope and further market penetration in the wealthiest market in the world, is pretty futile.

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Well, if you look at it from a dispassionate, purely financial point of view, it may be that BMW has determined that it costs less to fix them after they break than to inspect every bike out there. These are not life threatening failures.

 

How many hours of labor to remove and inspect every transmission? Just to catch the small percent that will fail. It might even be that they can't easily determine which will fail. I used to work in a machine shop and it takes training and equipment to check paralellism, flatness, runout, etc. most shops have neither the training or equipment.

 

I'm not saying this course of action is right, but it might not be that bmw is stupid or out of touch. They are in business to make money and this could be the best business solution.

 

pete

 

And here is my biggest issue!

 

This is what many businesses do. Never mind the right thing to do. Never mind the many other reasons to take care of it. It is the business=$$$ mentality. Never mind the other things that make or break a business.

 

In my situation, I tore into mine at 75,000 and now at 105,000 I think I will have to tear into it again. It will cost me a lot of money (which goes perfectly with the $$$ theory: it will cost me the money and not BMW to fix something that is bad manufacturing on their part)

 

I feel the only fix is to replace the transmission which may fix the alignment issue, if that is what it is. (I can't come up with a better reason/theory for this problem.)

 

BMW now made the perfect "business decision!" They never spent a dime on a manufacturing problem.

 

I was at the dealer picking up some other parts this week, and really like a couple of bikes (Why does that k1200R just turn me on so much?) but for my business decision, I may have to go with another brand without the Canbus system and big problems like this.

[Thatman]

As someone who's bike is currently in the shop I find it interesting that I still look at the LT and drool. That bike really doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me...but I want it and I don't know why.

 

That is something interesting.

[Ken/OC]

That bike really doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me...

 

If it had to make sense you wouldn't have a bike at all! You gotta live with it, the rest of us do...

[Thatman]

That bike really doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me...

 

If it had to make sense you wouldn't have a bike at all! You gotta live with it, the rest of us do...

 

LOL...so true...so true.

[Ken/OC]

And..Merry Christmas!

[Kenny2]

I experienced the Spline failure. My interest is "How many CHP bikes have had a spline failure?" If this failure is "user caused" then they, collectively, would be a heavy user on the splines.

Does anyone know, or know someone who would know?

[motorman587]

We have 9 BMW motorcycle RTPs. 1, 1998 retired CHP R1100RTP, 1, 2001 RTP and the rest 2002. Mileage range from 33000 high to 13000 low. The retired CHP has 40000 miles on it. We have never had the splines failure. We train once a month on these motors and couple have been to a couple of rodeos. I remember on of the motors tore up the rubber picece in the shaft during a motor school.

[smiller]

If this failure is "user caused" then ...

 

Has any dealer or BMW representative ever proposed that a spline failure is actually the owner's fault? If so then I have some new definitions for the words insolent and incompetent...

[Lyter]

My next motorcycle WILL NOT be a BMW. I love my RT, but when I look to spend upwards of $20k for two wheels, it better be bloody reliable.

 

Happy New Year everyone.

 

Lyter

[smiller]

but when I look to spend upwards of $20k for two wheels, it better be bloody reliable.

 

Well the jury hasn't come back yet on the hexheads (in fact we've barely begun the trial.) BMW never admits mistakes but that doesn't mean that they never fix them... hopefully changes in the current generation have quietly addressed some of the more problematic mechanical issues.

 

I'm going to let someone else find out this time though.