Is it Possible That I'm Gay?

[TEDZ]

Back on the subject of targeted marketing, I often spell my last name a litle differently on magazine subscriptions. Then I can tell by the junk mail who has been selling my name. Don't always need to mis-spell it on purpose, the DMV go my last name and middle name mix up on a car title recently.

[Mike]

Despite the "aw, not that there's anything wrong with it," wink wink commentary, and Fernando's use of upper case letters, I for one find this thread, all of it, to be completely offensive. The conceit of "we're talking about marketing" doesn't wash with me.

 

Locking this thread ain't enough, it should be deleted. I'm appalled that several of the admin people saw fit to comment. I'm appalled that the thread even got started. I'm appalled at MANY of the comments.

 

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I am quite short on time, so I can't respond fully, but I will note my vehement disagreement. I may learn something from this discussion, but I find myself more disturbed by individuals who try to find offense where none exists, believing that they know the secret motives of others.

 

It always rings a bit hollow when an offender, such as I, claims to be closely aligned with those who are the purported target of discrimination or ridicule, but I'd note--and you can choose to believe this or not--that I've been down the road of excruciating life experiences with many a gay friend. I'd suggest that not one in a thousand other men has had the experiences or gone through what I have for others whose sexual orientation differs from theirs.

 

But, as we segue into a different line of discussion, what specifically about this conversation leads you to the conclusion that the topic ought to be off-limits? What is the harm which you believe is occurring or suggested?

[Mike]

Lighten up Francis

 

 

 

+1

 

For those who might not know, this is from the epic film, "Stripes."

[Shiny Side Up]

Lighten up Francis

 

 

 

+1

 

For those who might not know, this is from the epic film, "Stripes."

 

Starring Bill Murray and quite funny - the previews were a great example of a sound marketing plan...

[elkroeger]

I'm still waiting for a gay person to chime in that this is indeed an un-funny thread.

 

Just like my neighbor is still waiting for the first Canadian citizen to tell him that Canada's health care system is crap.

[Knifemaker]

Want to be outraged?

 

Think why and how these marketing people are targeting specific social groups to start with instead of marketing a product for it's own value.

 

Just like any sort of news that will try to sway opinions to convict someone before, during, and even after a trial.

 

What is the HOT new trend so we can continue playing with our puppets and not get caught....

 

You make like it or hate it.... either way that's what marketing people prey on and you know what?....you will fall for it...they will make sure some how some way.... because that is where the MONEY is...

[Rougarou]

 

Just like my neighbor is still waiting for the first Canadian citizen to tell him that Canada's health care system is crap.

 

I've met one. Canadian citizen as an active duty Marine. He still maintains his Canadian citizenship. We discussed Canada's health care and he did say it was crap. I don't remember the specifics but something to the effect of routine care takes forever.

[tallman]

Want to be outraged?

 

Think why and how these marketing people are targeting specific social groups to start with instead of marketing a product for it's own value.

 

Just like any sort of news that will try to sway opinions to convict someone before, during, and even after a trial.

What is the HOT new trend so we can continue playing with our puppets and not get caught....

 

You make like it or hate it.... either way that's what marketing people prey on and you know what?....you will fall for it...they will make sure some how some way.... because that is where the MONEY is...

 

Apparently the hot new trend is men wearing expensive leather soled shoes with no socks.

 

Obviously some of us are early apexers, calling Calvin.

[Knifemaker]

Way to go Calvin.........I like no socks also......

[Mike]

I'm still waiting for a gay person to chime in that this is indeed an un-funny thread.

 

I'm back . . . for a few minutes. I have to admit that I was bothered by Mark's implication of bias on my part. As I think about that notion, it just doesn't compute. But, maybe I'm horrifically insensitive of those concerns as the result of my own life experiences. Grab a whisky:

 

I'm about the last person you'd expect to have had much experience with gay acquaintances: As a kid, I lived on a dirt farm outside a town of 400 (and that might have been a stretch). In my younger days, our family was not too well off, but my dad was determined to make a better life for his family and ventured into a variety of businesses. About the time I was six or seven, he started on one of those career paths, that of an auctioneer. He became damned good at it and built a tremendous reputation. At some point, before I was ten, he entered into a business venture with a friend who was an antique dealer in this small town. Gene was known across the country as a dealer of really fine antiques . . . Chippendale, Sheraton and the like . . . and he was gay. I don't really remember Gene referring to himself as "gay." I don't think the term was in vogue at time time. He was a great guy, often self-deprecating, and referred to himself and like-oriented colleagues as being "queer as a three dollar bill."

 

But, it was no big deal to me, probably because it was no big deal to my parents. Gene's homosexuality was certainly a defining characteristic, but no more shocking that Lee (the grocer's) crew cut or Eddie (the barber's) wiry build. It definitely was not a negative. Gene was a big part of our family's life and his homosexuality was a complete non-factor. That's probably a hard concept for some presumed sophisticates to grasp, but the supposed bigotry of rural "rustics" is, in my experience, pretty much a fabrication of the entertainment media, a way of cataloging others that seems to be much of how we interact with others these days.

 

Sparing all of you the minutiae, my experiences and viewpoints may defy the file into which some might put me. I'm a conservative white military retiree who grew up on a farm outside a podunk little town. Christian, to boot. Yet--defying the expectations of those who would deem me a likely bible-thumping homophobe--probably a third of my friends are gay. I've flown across the country to drag one into a meth rehab program when the burden of dealing with AIDS caused him to turn to drugs. I've been the guy who's been called when the relationship between gay friends turned to an angry confrontation involving the cops. I've been there to celebrate a lesbian friend's first child, conceived through IVF. I've been part of the celebration of a civil union. And on and on . . . . The truth is, I'd do the same for any friend, gay or straight, black or white, Christian, Islamic or atheist. Knowing those who are part of BMWST, I'd venture a guess that I'm not exceptional; that's the sort of spirit I've seen here continuously over more than a decade. So, frankly, I'd suggest that the accusations of bias should be stuck in the dark hole where they belong and forever sealed away.

 

That leads us then to the question of humor . . . or the lack thereof. In recent years, it's become quite a regular occurrence for comedians to render heartfelt apologies after some really funny routines that ticked off those who make a living off of being in a constant state of indignation. That's too bad--it can be taken too far, but humor can be a way of bridging the gaps that otherwise tend to separate us. A good pal of ours, a gay gent who gets a kick out of cross-dressing, routinely tells my wife that he's "more of a woman than [she] is." In this instance--and other countless circumstances--self-deprecation and the occasional cross-preference jab do far more to trivialize that which is truly trivial and affirm our affection for one another than pussyfooting around the topic could ever accomplish. I'd suggest that shared laughter does far more to build bonds across gender, sexual orientation, race, religion and political divides than prim indignation.

 

Having said all of this, we do need to guard against slippage into the offensive, where humor is used a a thin disguise for disapproval or hatred. But, I welcome any true friend to give me unrelenting crap about the fact that I'm a white (as an Easter lily), four-eyed, overweight, bible-thumping neanderthal from the backwoods. Taking your cue, I will return the favor by lamenting that fact that, but for your differences, you'd be an okay gay or gal.

 

Let's celebrate our individuality and that of others, thanking the Almighty (if you're so inclined) that we're not a fully homogenized species. If you and I can do that through humor that does not truly diminish the other, I think it brings us closer.

 

Above all else, be kind to one another.

[Ken H.]

Having said all of this, we do need to guard against slippage into the offensive, where humor is used a a thin disguise for disapproval or hatred. But, I welcome any true friend to give me unrelenting crap about the fact that I'm a white (as an Easter lily), four-eyed, overweight, bible-thumping neanderthal from the backwoods. Taking your cue, I will return the favor by lamenting that fact that, but for your differences, you'd be an okay gay or gal.

 

Let's celebrate our individuality and that of others, thanking the Almighty (if you're so inclined) that we're not a fully homogenized species. If you and I can do that through humor that does not truly diminish the other, I think it brings us closer.

 

Above all else, be kind to one another.

True, but still, I don’t see anything good coming out of this thread. It’s still laced with subliminal (at best) jabs at gays and use of stereotypes, and overall accomplishes nothing.

 

I say kill this one (as in delete) and if target marketing is a subject of interest - start a new one on that subject without overtones toward any particular segment of the population.

 

[Scribner]

Great humor, love it and I am not offended at all!! I keep getting adds about Harley-Davidson??????

[Mike]

I'm not inclined to kill it, but I may be overruled.

 

Target marketing can be silly, but our interactions with others of a different ilk is certainly a topic worthy of discussion. Maybe we should give it a shot, to see, as James suggested, if we can move a wee step closer to enlightenment. My friends in education would call this a "teachable moment." If we're predisposed to be taught, that is.

[upflying]

Ok, I'm outing myself as a blond. I am offended by the stereotype that blonds are dumb in advertising. My two cents.

[ratfink]

I was parking my RT as two teenage boys walked by. One of them said "Hella nice bike" A clever play on words with the prominent Hella covers on the driving lights.

 

His buddy replied "BMW's are gay"

 

No, just the BMW's with Hellas are gay. Hella is like a peach colored ascot or a pinky ring on a BMW. BMW's with PIAA's are definitely not gay.

 

I reviewed this thread with a gay friend. He didn't find it offensive and said that the humor expressed was similar to what one might expect in a conversation among a group of gay friends. There was one exception however, He does think that Hella's are way cooler than PIAA's.

[Mister Tee]

Let me ask you (all collectively) this, if we believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, an abnormality, would we be allowed to say it?

[beemerman2k]

Let me ask you (all collectively) this, if we believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, an abnormality, would we be allowed to say it?

 

In my 2 cents opinion, although this is not the thread to do so, you can say anything you want so long as: 1) it's a sincere viewpoint you hold (you're not just saying it to start trouble) and 2) you're willing to discuss/debate it with others.

 

Again, as a black man on this forum, I feel anyone is free to express whatever racial viewpoint they may have -- be it ever so un-PC -- so long as you're sincere and open to discussion/debate.

 

Folks who drop verbal and social bombs and then disappear because they're not open for discussion/debate are the ones who are troublesome.

[beemerman2k]

Speaking of dropping verbal and social bombs:

 

I have never seen an episode of, "South Park" in my life, but I did see their spot on "60 Minutes" Sunday evening. Did any of you see that?

 

Episode segment here :smile:

 

Let me tell you what, I have been laughing my butt off ever since. Every time I think about it I break out in laughter. Good one, South Park!

 

Playing with social matches? Yup.

 

Funny?

[Mike]

Let me ask you (all collectively) this, if we believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, an abnormality, would we be allowed to say it?

 

I don't know. There was a time, not so long ago (well, almost 30 years ago), when homosexuality was described as a mental disability in the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. The APA held its conference in San Francisco in 1971 (I think) and was heavily protested by gay advocates. Subsequently--and they've screwed around with the diagnostic treatment of homosexuality up to this point in time--it was removed from DSM. It seemed to me at the time that this arose out of widespread pressure, though there was some research by Kinsey and others offered in support of the change.

 

Opinion among mental health professionals remains somewhat fragmented, but I think it's safe to say that most don't consider homosexuality itself to be a disorder. There is still recognition of associated disorders that arise, in part, out of one's identity as gay. Ultimately, though, while laypeople view the DSM as some sort of authoritative edict on what is or is not an illness, it's mostly a tool for categorizing mental issues in order to standardize research, health records, and assist in insurance determinations.

 

Nonetheless, some mental health professionals do think homosexuality is a disorder (or, to use your term, an "illness"). They take a lot of flak if they publicly express that belief. It's an interesting area, where public dissent shaped medicine's "official" viewpoint.

[Tank]

Speaking of dropping verbal and social bombs:

 

I have never seen an episode of, "South Park" in my life, but I did see their spot on "60 Minutes" Sunday evening. Did any of you see that?

 

Episode segment here :smile:

 

Let me tell you what, I have been laughing my butt off ever since. Every time I think about it I break out in laughter. Good one, South Park!

 

Playing with social matches? Yup.

 

Funny?

 

 

 

Good one and thank you.... I have also never seen South Park, BUT I do know of its humor.... and because of it , it could pull this off as cleanly as a fart in church...

 

 

 

[PhillyFlash]

I'm still waiting for a gay person to chime in that this is indeed an un-funny thread.

 

You may have to wait a long time. Very few gays still ride BMWs. It was giving them a bad image.

 

[elkroeger]

Personally, I just avoid on threads that look like I'd get upset with. Like that Trayvon Martin case. I never looked at it, so what do I know, but the topic in general is a hot button with a lot of people, for several reasons. I don't need the aggravation.

 

Back to marketing... I've been working on a project (or going berserk, if you ask my wife) at home. I'm sick of my mail box being stuffed every day with catalogs. My wife has numerous multiple copies with her married and maiden name... Vicotria Secret comes twice or three times a week. We have to empty the recycle bin dang near every day. I'm sick of it.

 

Anyway, on and off for the past month or so, I have been sending email to every company that sends us junk mail, and telling them to stop. Unbelievably, it's almost ALL GONE! I'm tickled, and surprised to see that it's working. I encourage you to try it. The only problem I have now, is that I never know if the mail man's been by or not.

 

Now, contrast that with spam. I don't understand why spam even gets sent. Are there people that it really works on? I get spam on my cell phone all the time. I guess in the end, there's a difference between mail order catalog companies (who have a reputable business) and spammers, who, in my imagination, operate out of some decrepit apartment in the Bronx....

[pbharvey]

Homosexuals are my best referring customer. When I get a call from a potential customer who was referred by an existing customer, and they're both homosexuals, it's a very, very solid sales lead. My guess is that may hold true in other industries (I own an HVAC company so my experience is with in-home services). Targeted marketing, despite its flaws, makes perfect sense to me.

[Kathy R]

Vicotria Secret comes twice or three times a week.

 

This is a bad thing?

(just kidding ya)

[markgoodrich]

Let me ask you (all collectively) this, if we believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, an abnormality, would we be allowed to say it?

 

In my 2 cents opinion, although this is not the thread to do so, you can say anything you want so long as: 1) it's a sincere viewpoint you hold (you're not just saying it to start trouble) and 2) you're willing to discuss/debate it with others.

 

Again, as a black man on this forum, I feel anyone is free to express whatever racial viewpoint they may have -- be it ever so un-PC -- so long as you're sincere and open to discussion/debate.

 

Folks who drop verbal and social bombs and then disappear because they're not open for discussion/debate are the ones who are troublesome.

 

Dunno if you're referring to me as the bomber, but I assume you are. If so, you are absolutely right that I am not open to discussion or debate on the inappropriateness of bigotry and animus towards any group, be it Muslim, white guy, scooter rider, LBGT, etc, etc, etc, no matter how sly the jab (as shown in some of the comments here).

This particular thread has my hair on fire because some of it slurs gays. If a thread appears which slurs Muslims, I'll have the same reaction.

 

I'm completely open to discussion and debate on almost any subject. Bigotry is not on that list. As Ken H pointed out, many of the comments are almost sublminally negative. The teachable moment here is for the folks who find it acceptable to make jokes or straight-out negative comments regarding groups they may be uncomfortable about to realize that their words can wound.

[Dave McReynolds]

It has been my observation in life that relationships among people can start in hostility, move to a phase of polite acceptance, and then sometimes on to friendship. One of the characteristics of friendship can be humor, whether self-deprecating or aimed at the other party.

 

It is certainly possible that an expression of humor may be nothing more than bigotry. It is also possible that it could be an effort to reach out to another person or group on a more human level than is possible when remarks are restricted to purely polite discourse. My feelings are that the humor expressed in the comments that have been made here reflect the latter. In other words, you take a chance and throw out an offhand remark; if it is accepted in the spirit intended, and returned in kind, then the people involved become closer. If not, then you retreat to more polite, carefully chosen words.

 

Of course, YMMV.

[aterry1067]

Like it or not, this has turned into a gay thread. And I'd like to throw my two cents in. Mike, you don't know how lucky you are to have grown up with such a tolerant and open minded family. I wish all could be that accepting. Unfortunately, many aren't.

 

Following is a response I had typed for the last thread that got locked as I contemplated a reply. It's a good thing it did. I couldn't bite my tongue any longer. Here's what I wrote:

 

I am bi. I would be gay, but due to being raised in a deeply conservative and “southern baptist “ atmosphere, I eventually grew accustomed to tolerating the opposite sex. There really wasn’t much of a choice. I guess I could identify as gay now that I am a self-supporting adult, but really, it’s just gone too far to try to change it. Personally, I think I am one of the most patient, tolerant, easy going people that I know. There isn’t much that offends me. I am not bothered by ignorance, so long as people are willing to listen. I’m not asking them to agree with my beliefs; it would be quite the boring world if everyone had the same beliefs. And I don’t care if we agree or disagree. My days of living my life to try to make others happy, are over. And this is the ONLY reason that I am able to tell someone openly that I am bi (or gay…just kinda depends on how I feel that day). I’m not a dancing fairy, and as far as I know, very few who ever met me would have any idea. Of course, it wouldn’t matter to me if they did.

My biggest problem is that it’s such a mystery to so many people as to when I decided I was gay (for the sake of clarity, I will identify as gay for this post. Although bisexual would be a more accurate term, it seems to just create more confusion to try to explain). I have always been gay. Always. When did I know? I knew from the first day of kindergarten that something was different…one of these things is not like the other. By around 3rd grade, I had a pretty good idea. By the 5th grade, I knew full well what it was that I was turning out to be. And I hated it. It terrified me. Why? Because I heard everyone around me say how horrible it was.” All those faggots and queers should be rounded up and set on fire. They are going to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it. (direct quote from a family member)” So at 10 years old, I “knew” that I was going to burn in “hell” for all eternity, and there was nothing I could do about it. How did I know? Everyone that I trusted told me so. Not directly, but I heard them say it to other people, so it must be true. So tell me, how would you expect your 10 year old to respond if you told him/her that he should die a very painful death, going to burn in hell, and he/she is not fit to live on this earth? They learn to ball it up. “Deal with it.” Some deal with it better than others. Some aren’t so lucky. I am lucky. I spent more than a couple nights as a teenager sitting in my room sucking on a gun barrel. I am one of the lucky ones that never had the balls to follow through.

I’m sure you might say to yourself, “well if it was my kid, they would know that I wasn’t talking about them and that I would love them no matter what.” Well, actually, no, they don’t know that. Not if they hear of your disdain for such behavior when you talk to others. So now, they have absolutely no one to talk to. See, a poor, black, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish, Islamic, obese (or the minority of your choosing) kid gets taunted at school for being poor, black, Jewish, etc. He comes home to poor, black, Jewish, etc parents and family who have been in the same situations and dealt with the same problems that the kid is experiencing. He has a support network at home. Who does a gay kid come home and talk to? A gay kid comes home to further taunting by his family (be it directly aimed at him, or indirect conversation). So does hanging around a gay person turn the kid gay? No. Chances are, the kid already knows he is gay and is dying to talk to someone and trusting his family isn’t an option. The point that I am getting at here is that, if your kid (or niece, nephew, grandkid, neighbors kid, whatever) hears YOU talking to YOUR friends about how much you disapprove of gay people, and that kid happens to be gay, one, he’s never going to tell you, two, he’s going to assume you think that about him….it’s personal. And they DO know what you’re talking about, especially if they are struggling with it themselves. They will know long before you do, if you ever do.

So here I am. I grew up. I can take care of myself. Actually, I am doing quite well, especially given the background. Statistically speaking, given the average demographic of my graduating high-school class and my position on the social scale at the time, I should be working in a factory (or unemployed in today’s economy), the majority of my paycheck going to child support and alimony, and most of the rest going to alcohol and drugs, living in gov’t housing or a trailer park. Instead, I spent 10 years in the military, now work on the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world, and make a handsome salary doing it. I’ve come a long way, and I am quite proud of myself for doing it. Gay? Yep. Do you disapprove? I don’t really give an “aeronautical copulation” (stolen quote..sorry to the originator). Wanna talk about it? Sure! Hell we can BS about anything you want, especially over a good beer and spicy chicken wings. I’m pretty easy to get along with.

Thanks for reading/sorry for the post….however you want to read it.

 

My underlying feeling about THIS post is that, yeah, some of it's pretty funny. I don't have any hard feelings towards any of the comments made here, certainly unlike the last thread. However, this is the internet. You don't have to be a member to read this board. Anyone with an internet connection can read it. Kinda like standing around in a crowd of people; some are your friends, but most you don't know. Just because you are talking TO your friends, doesn't mean someone else isn't listening.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

[Whip]

aterry

 

I would honored to buy ya a couple rounds of your favorite beverage.

 

Un Rally or Torrey would be great.

 

Larry

[beemerman2k]

Dunno if you're referring to me as the bomber, but I assume you are.

 

No, you were nowhere on my mental radar when I made that statement. Sorry.

 

If so, you are absolutely right that I am not open to discussion or debate on the inappropriateness of bigotry and animus towards any group, be it Muslim, white guy, scooter rider, LBGT, etc, etc, etc, no matter how sly the jab (as shown in some of the comments here).

 

If this is the case, then in my opinion, you are a part of the problem! That's right, a part of the problem. There is absolutely no crime in being ignorant, and that's all the collective set of prejudices we all hold is: ignorance. The crime is when one chooses to remain ignorant. And that's why we need to discuss, enlighten, engage, cross examine, educate.

 

So you can point fingers all day long and shout and kick and scream and get mad as hell, but all you're doing is putting on a show. At best, you managed to silence mouths, but you've done nothing to change minds and hearts. That only comes through deep, engaging, painful, yet necessary conversation, talk, and verbal exchange where both parties can honestly put their thoughts out there and honestly listen to one another.

 

Yes, both parties must listen. There is no implicit logic that says the black person is always or inherently right in an argument about race, or the woman about gender, or the gay person about sexual orientation, or the poor person about poverty. Both parties must be willing to listen to the other.

 

But, if you're not interested in engaging those whose views you don't like, then I would suggest you post your outrage elsewhere. Here it just comes off as noise.

 

Now, want to engage in conversation and turn this thread into a "teaching moment"? Good, you can do so by sharing with us what in particular you feel is harmful, why, and then be open to listening to why it in fact, might not be. I have already read from two other sources that this thread is light, harmless humor, and since you're not the arbitor of all that is socially acceptable and peaceful, it's on you to show us why those who called this material harmless, are wrong.

[beemerman2k]

aterry

 

I would honored to buy ya a couple rounds of your favorite beverage.

 

Un Rally or Torrey would be great!

 

Larry

 

+1

 

Now arterry just exemplified what I mean by turning threads like this into a teaching moment. Perfect! Simple education, passing along a perspective and putting it out there for learning and comment.

 

Beautiful! Thank you very much, arterry.

 

You will change minds and hearts! Way to go

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

...you are absolutely right that I am not open to discussion or debate on the inappropriateness of bigotry and animus towards any group, be it Muslim, white guy, scooter rider, LBGT, etc, etc, etc, no matter how sly the jab (as shown in some of the comments here).

 

Are you open to discussion or debate regarding exactly what constitutes bigotry or animus?

 

As you read back over this thread, do you honestly believe anyone who has contributed to it would be opposed to having a gay person live next door to them, or work in the cubicle next to theirs, or seeing a gay person hold hands in public with their mate (and here I don't mean "mate" in the Australian sense)?

 

I really wish people would lighten up and learn to take a little ribbing in stride, and understand that it's not necessarily mean-spirited. In a thread a couple of years ago in which we were discussing the merits of bigotry against some other group (), I opined the following:

 

I'd like to live in a world where people aren't so thin-skinned, and per Gandhi, I am willing to be the change I want to see in the world.

 

I'm white: go ahead, make jokes about how this white boy can't jump or dance.

 

I'm a male; go ahead and make those jokes about suffering from testosterone poisoning.

 

I'm an over-educated engineer: go ahead, make jokes about my social skills and fashion sense.

 

I'm middle-aged: go ahead and make jokes about backaches and hemorrhoids.

 

I would happily grant you the latitude to crack wise at my expense - I'll even laugh with you - if you'll grant me the same latitude, and maybe even laugh with me, when I crack wise in a light-hearted manner about your age/profession/gender/religion/race.

 

I still feel that way, and you can add sexual orientation to the list at the end of that quote.

[markgoodrich]

Dunno if you're referring to me as the bomber, but I assume you are.

 

No, you were nowhere on my mental radar when I made that statement. Sorry.

 

If so, you are absolutely right that I am

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not open to discussion or debate on the inappropriateness of bigotry and animus towards any group, be it Muslim, white guy, scooter rider, LBGT, etc, etc, etc, no matter how sly the jab (as shown in some of the comments here).

 

If this is the case, then in my opinion, you are a part of the problem! That's right, a part of the problem. There is absolutely no crime in being ignorant, and that's all the collective set of prejudices we all hold is: ignorance. The crime is when one chooses to remain ignorant. And that's why we need to discuss, enlighten, engage, cross examine, educate.

 

So you can point fingers all day long and shout and kick and scream and get mad as hell, but all you're doing is putting on a show. At best, you managed to silence mouths, but you've done nothing to change minds and hearts. That only comes through deep, engaging, painful, yet necessary conversation, talk, and verbal exchange where both parties can honestly put their thoughts out there and honestly listen to one another.

 

Yes, both parties must listen. There is no implicit logic that says the black person is always or inherently right in an argument about race, or the woman about gender, or the gay person about sexual orientation, or the poor person about poverty. Both parties must be willing to listen to the other.

 

But, if you're not interested in engaging those whose views you don't like, then I would suggest you post your outrage elsewhere. Here it just comes off as noise.

 

Now, want to engage in conversation and turn this thread into a "teaching moment"? Good, you can do so by sharing with us what in particular you feel is harmful, why, and then be open to listening to why it in fact, might not be. I have already read from two other sources that this thread is light, harmless humor, and since you're not the arbitor of all that is socially acceptable and peaceful, it's on you to show us why those who called this material harmless, are wrong.

 

Aterry said everything I believe, much more eloquently than I could have. I have nothing further to add.

[pbharvey]

I am bi. I would be gay, but due to being raised in a deeply conservative and “southern baptist “ atmosphere, I eventually grew accustomed to tolerating the opposite sex. There really wasn’t much of a choice.

 

 

So if a straight child was raised by gay parents in a pro-gay environment, would he have no choice but to tolerate the same sex and be bi? I feel bad for what you've been through but blaming the Baptists for robbing you of your homosexuality seems silly to me. I get the whole rejection and repression thing but if you want to be gay, don't let the Baptists hold you back.

 

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone. The path to a frank discussion has been opened; maybe I can learn something here.

[beemerman2k]

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone. The path to a frank discussion has been opened; maybe I can learn something here.

 

This is exactly how this is supposed to work. The exchange of information, ideas, experiences, and principles. Each of us must be willing to subject ourselves to cross examination, too. Not in the interest of being proven right or wrong; it's got nothing to do with that. The question is simply this: is your position sound enough that I should incorporate it into my own thinking? That's the question. If it is, you have successfully enlightned others with your views. If not, then maybe you have enlightened yourself as to what it is that you are not able to communicate to others, but that must be somehow communicated.

 

Back in the "Gay Marriage" thread, I commended pbharvey for voicing his views AND subjecting himself to vigorous cross examination. He didn't wince, he didn't run away, he didn't lie. He faced the fire, listened to the opposition, and then voiced his more enlightened, yet unchanged position on the matter. That's what communication can do, that guilt, PC, or outrage cannot.

 

Communication breeds mutual respect and understanding, even if not always agreement. Agreement is not necessary, only mutual respect and understanding.

[Kathy R]

Who does a gay kid come home and talk to?

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective aterry1067.

 

That quote really struck me. As a kid, I had no idea the pain some folks I knew were going through. They were my friends, but they never told me of the hurt they experienced. Maybe I wasn't as good a friend to them as I thought? I realized later that they were officially gay or what it meant to be black in America, or whatever, but it didn't change how I felt about them. They always were who they were, to me. My parents never said a disparaging word about anyone and they never told us how to think, but they showed us that you don't make assumptions about people.

 

I wasn't aware of the fact that folks were gay or bi or anything like that until I was nearly 20. I just thought some people were different, but not in a bad way. When it was made clear to me, when a man at work showed me the engagement ring he'd gotten for his fiancee, another man, a light bulb went off in my head. I know, I'm slow. I had a momentary thought of confusion and then I had complete joy at his happiness. Yeah, it was an eye opener, but it was a good eye opener.

 

Recently a comment was made to me that "There are too many black people on T.V. now". The logic was that it was disproportionate to the actual percentage of the population. After my initial shock, I said, "Won't it be great when no one notices?".

 

I'm lucky to be living through the era of long conversations, over exposure and exploration in order to get past the eras of misunderstanding, persecution and prejudice. We all live in a great time in our civilization. It's pretty horrible to think about the pain folks went through until now, but there is light at the end of all of these societal tunnels now. Easy for me to say that, being a white girl. All my life everything has just gotten better and better for white girls.

 

[Ken H.]

you can do so by sharing with us what in particular you feel is harmful, why, and then be open to listening to why it in fact, might not be. I have already read from two other sources that this thread is light, harmless humor, and since you're not the arbitor of all that is socially acceptable and peaceful, it's on you to show us why those who called this material harmless, are wrong.

Not trying to speak for Mark, but I want to address this for a second, why I think humour about/at gays is in a different class than some other derogatory humor.

 

Someone, who will go unnamed, commented off board about this thread and how thin skinned we (I presume was speaking about society as a whole) have become. Mitch I believe is basically taking that same position above.

 

There is lots of degrading humour out there, always has been. Indeed making fun of others is a part of much humour. Probably there is no way to categorize people that hasn’t been made fun of at some time or another one way or another. And a lot of it could, relatively speaking, be considered harmless. I’ll not going to list specifics, but we all can sight examples of stuff you chuckle at but then dismiss. Even if directed at ourselves. Okay, one example – at/about me – jokes about “geeks.” A lot of our ability to shrug it off is directly connected to our own self-confidence in who we are, our emotional maturity, our feeling of self-worth, that enables us to be ‘thick skinned’ so to speak.

 

But, and I think it’s a very big but, there are extenuating factors about being gay that move humour about it into a different category of inappropriateness.

 

One factor that makes gay humour somewhat uniquely inappropriate is that goes to the very core of who we are - our sexuality. You can make fun of my profession, style, interests, activities, possessions, but attacking being gay is not about what I do, it’s about who I am. It’s core. It’s unchangeable. It’s the big part of the very essence of the ‘me.’ To make fun of my haircut is one thing, to make fun of my very existence is a whole different matter. One that has no justification.

 

But the big #1, as aterry pointed out (thanks for the great post BTW), is age. Awareness that ‘I am different’ starts a very young age for people who eventually come to terms (hopefully) with the fact that they are gay. And as also pointed out, the pain put on that person from a very young age can be immense. And for some, life-long. Gay derogatory humour only adds to that immense burden placed on the shoulders of young and very young people ill-equipped to handle it. Human emotional maturity and coping mechanisms only start to be come fully developed in our late teens, early 20s.

 

Now it’s easy to say no 6-year old reads BMWST, but it’s not the specifics of this thread, it’s the prevalence of it and use in other venues. Who has made (or could) a gay joke here could honestly say at some time in their life they haven’t done the same thing elsewhere? Now of course there are lots of factors involved, religious-based intolerance being high on the list, but derogatory gay humour is on the list of destructiveness contributing to the gay suicide rate.

 

The bottom line is actually relatively straight forward – people are dying, many of them very young promising people, over agonizing anguish that they are gay. Derogatory gay humour is a contributing factor. It has no place. Anywhere.

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

Derogatory gay humour is a contributing factor. It has no place. Anywhere.

 

I went to see the movie, La Cage aux Folles, when it came out about 30 years ago, and later the stage play when it made its way to Sacramento. I believe it is still being shown in New York. Would you consider the humor in that film/play to be degogatory? Certainly the mannerisms of the main character are exaggerated to emphasize the way we imagined at the time that a "typical" homosexual might act. And yet you don't hear the same complaints of stereotyping from the homosexual community regarding La Cage that we hear from the Black community regarding Amos & Andy, for example.

 

I think the difference is that, at the conclusion of La Cage, our overwhelming memory is of the generosity and humanity of the main character that transcended any of his mannerisms.

 

So I think it might be painting with too broad a brush to conclude that "It has no place. Anywhere." Certainly if the main purpose of the humor is to isolate and humiliate, I would agree with you. But if the purpose is to encourage acceptance, then I think humor, even derogatory humor, has a place.

 

Granted, one has to be careful whenever one uses humor, for example, around someone like my Scandinavian wife, who probably won't get it or appreciate it, however it is intended. Around people like that, one simply has to find other ways to communicate those aspects of life that humor helps other people to cope with.

[Scribner]

aterry

 

I would honored to buy ya a couple rounds of your favorite beverage.

 

Un Rally or Torrey would be great.

 

Larry

 

I'll buy the third round!

[beemerman2k]

You make some good points, Ken.

 

One thing I have recently noticed, to my horror, is just how much death and violence is associated with being gay in this country. It's not simply a social or personal decision. In far too many cases, coming out as gay can lead to severe and extreme violence and hostility. Still. To this day!

 

In fact, I just learned about a father in, I think it was North Carolina, who literally killed his own 4 year old son because he thought the boy was gay! We are all painfully aware of that New Jersey college student who killed himself upon learning that his room mate recorded his interactions with his same sex lover. Even our religions teach us that gay people represent the social plague of human civilization, and they have even caused God to have to temporarily set aside his "agape love" policies so he could properly deal with these folks (see Sodom and Gomorrah). All these forces, and more, has lead to a bloody history of righteous hatred and violence levied against these people. And even more problematic, we have been so immersed in this culture of hate that we don't even see it anymore!

 

Spend the next few days paying attention. See if you begin to notice the kind of daily violence being exercised against this segment of the population.

 

Anyhow, I am not writing this to suggest that anyone who tells gay jokes is a homophobe or that such humor has no place in our society. I am only saying that once we become aware of the degree of cultural, social, and physical violence being leveled against these people, we might develop a level of sensitivity that tempers our thoughts a bit.

 

But that's what we're here to do: develop a healthy level of sensitivity and to understand what that means

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

One factor that makes gay humour somewhat uniquely inappropriate is that goes to the very core of who we are - our sexuality. You can make fun of my profession, style, interests, activities, possessions, but attacking being gay is not about what I do, its about who I am. Its core. Its unchangeable.

 

There are plenty of unchangeable things that define who a person is; I don't think sexual preference is universally the first trait that comes to mind when a person thinks about who they are.

 

Try that. Think about what defines you as a person, and what you would put at the top of your own list. A few relatively immutable traits, presented here in no particular order:

 

-able-bodied/disabled

-adult/child

-male/female

-attracted to men/women/both

-white/black/asian/green (huh?)

-likes spaghetti/hates spaghetti

-into BDSM/prefers "vanilla" sex (whatever "vanilla" is)

 

Do you automatically put your sexual attraction at the top of your list? Or something else? For me, I feel like the fact that I'm a male is the foundation of who I am; everything else ends up subsequent on my own list. Not that it matters; I'm fine with people poking good-natured fun at anything on my list (man, I loves me some spaghetti ), provided there's reciprocity. I've enjoyed jokes about my masculinity, heterosexuality and plenty of other traits.

 

Life's a PITA when you can't laugh at yourself even a little.

 

[aterry1067]

I am bi. I would be gay, but due to being raised in a deeply conservative and “southern baptist “ atmosphere, I eventually grew accustomed to tolerating the opposite sex. There really wasn’t much of a choice.

 

 

So if a straight child was raised by gay parents in a pro-gay environment, would he have no choice but to tolerate the same sex and be bi? I feel bad for what you've been through but blaming the Baptists for robbing you of your homosexuality seems silly to me. I get the whole rejection and repression thing but if you want to be gay, don't let the Baptists hold you back.

 

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone. The path to a frank discussion has been opened; maybe I can learn something here.

 

Thanks for the reply. No, a child raised by gay parents is not going to be forced into being bi. "Could" it happen? Sure. But I doubt it would be very likely, because there isn't an overwhelming expectation from society to be gay, like there is to be straight. If there had only been a few intolerant people during my childhood, I am sure things would have been much different. But that wasn't the case. It appeared that everyone felt the same way, and it wasn't until I got to get out and see the world on my own that I figured it out.

 

And you are absolutely right about Baptists, and I apologize for that. I know many very nice, tolerant people from all different religions, including Baptists. I just wanted to highlight that many use religion as an excuse to degrade things of which they have no understanding, and no desire to understand. And I find it very discomforting that some would use religion as an excuse to degrade and scare another person to the point of suicide.

 

I don't want anyone to feel bad for me. I don't. Things happen and we move on, hopefully a better person than we were before.

 

 

[aterry1067]

Personally I do think that humor has a place here. We use humor to show acceptance of differences, and I do believe that most people can understand the difference between that, and completely derogatory remarks being sold as humor. But again, we have to be cognizant of our entire audience. While I may see it as good-natured rib poking, the other person who is still struggling with his emotions may see it differently.

 

I don't think we have the right to never be offended. For instance, let's say I had a visually obvious difference.... my skin was blue, my knees bent the other way, I had two heads, etc. If I walked into a room full a people, I would be much more uncomfortable if everyone just ignored the situation, and remained quiet. Because then, the obvious thought is "what are they saying behind my back?" If they acknowledge the difference, then we can move past it. Humor can be a way of acknowledging that difference, as a means to move past it.

 

 

However, I do agree with Ken H's post (#784081) as well. Joking around about it is fine....with me. Just be aware of who else is around that may not understand it.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for free beer!!!! I do love good beer! Sooo 4th round is on me. We will have to start drinking pretty early to be sober enough to ride the next day.

[Ken H.]

One factor that makes gay humour somewhat uniquely inappropriate is that goes to the very core of who we are - our sexuality. You can make fun of my profession, style, interests, activities, possessions, but attacking being gay is not about what I do, its about who I am. Its core. Its unchangeable.

 

There are plenty of unchangeable things that define who a person is; I don't think sexual preference is universally the first trait that comes to mind when a person thinks about who they are.

I didn't say first. I said core. As in - a key part of.

[Ken H.]

So if a straight child was raised by gay parents in a pro-gay environment, would he have no choice but to tolerate the same sex and be bi?

The issue has been studies 1000 times. (And previously discussed here.) There is no identified correlation of LGBT of an individual and their parents, members of household, etc. The sexual ordinations of others, even those that raise a child, can neither turn a person LGB or T, nor turn them away.

 

Tolerating the same sex, and being bi (or gay) are two totally different subjects. The word tolerate can mean many things, but generally is used in the context of ‘feel negative toward but put up with.’ Bi-sexual defines a person who is attracted to members of both sexes. Indeed in some sense the two words are mutually exclusive.

 

[Bob Palin]

I don't want anyone to feel bad for me.

 

Why would anyone feel bad for you? Haven't you got the best of both worlds?

 

(I suppose somebody is going to find that offensive, but I certainly don't mean it to be, and I don't mean it to be funny or amusing either)

[Quinn]

Guess I can chime in with two offensive observations about humor. First, we often say things in jest that we mean with some seriousness. This is particularly a Southern trait. The second is that it's pretty hard to offend someone with something that they're not ashamed of it. Tease me all you want about being white, male, Southern, or attractive.

 

------

 

 

[Ken H.]

Tease me all you want about being white, male, Southern, or attractive.

Well, three out of four?

[tallman]

Quinn,

 

I see that in comparison to having immunity against a virus.

You get exposed to it, don't get sick.

 

Someone else doesn't have the immunity despite having similar exposures like you had.

They become deathly ill.

 

Some people don't acquire the immunity.

I don't think we should criticize that outcome.

 

Just because you or I don't find X offensive doesn't give me the right, IMO, to take it for granted another person does/should feel that way.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I didn't say first. I said core. As in - a key part of.

 

OK, "a key part of." How is it fundamentally different from any of the other traits I listed, in a way that makes it off-limits for good-natured humor?

[TyTass]

Personally I do think that humor has a place here. We use humor to show acceptance of differences, and I do believe that most people can understand the difference between that, and completely derogatory remarks being sold as humor. But again, we have to be cognizant of our entire audience. While I may see it as good-natured rib poking, the other person who is still struggling with his emotions may see it differently.

 

I don't think we have the right to never be offended. For instance, let's say I had a visually obvious difference.... my skin was blue, my knees bent the other way, I had two heads, etc. If I walked into a room full a people, I would be much more uncomfortable if everyone just ignored the situation, and remained quiet. Because then, the obvious thought is "what are they saying behind my back?" If they acknowledge the difference, then we can move past it. Humor can be a way of acknowledging that difference, as a means to move past it.

 

However, I do agree with Ken H's post (#784081) as well. Joking around about it is fine....with me. Just be aware of who else is around that may not understand it.

Well said. And you were right in your previous post, too. Most people wouldn't know your "preferences." We've wrench bikes a time or two and were at a ride together and I didn't know up till now, but quite frankly it wouldn't have mattered to me had you been loud and proud (even if you do work on that abomination known as the F-35).

 

BTW: I still have that delay relay assembly if you want it. Drop me a PM and let me know. I'll send it.