"OK"..you retire. But what about Health Care if your under 65???

[MT Wallet]

A gentleman named Mike Duggan took over as CEO of the Detroit Medical Center hospitals in 2004. He promised 29 minute waits in the ER. He delivered. Now the model, from study to execution, is taught in many MBA programs.

[Whip]

Yes...and I do.

 

+2 and we do to. Nine hundred a month for my wife and I.

 

And if you were working full-time (2080 hours/year) at the Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr, that would leave you $4,280 a year ($357/month) for ALL your other living expenses. Less any taxes withheld, of course. Your solution may work for you, but there are millions of Americans who couldn't afford it.

 

 

IMHO...Bad straw man arguement that has nothing to do with anything. Minwage is just that. If you stay at min wage for your life time then you are what you are. If you are under 25 and make min wag you prolly have a cell phone and cable TV. You could have health insurance instead. Your choice not my problem.

[Bob Palin]

After reading Ken's post, is there anybody out there who would opt for the US system if they had to pay their own insurance premium?

 

Ben

 

Not me, and I do.

[Bill_Walker]

Yes...and I do.

 

+2 and we do to. Nine hundred a month for my wife and I.

 

And if you were working full-time (2080 hours/year) at the Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr, that would leave you $4,280 a year ($357/month) for ALL your other living expenses. Less any taxes withheld, of course. Your solution may work for you, but there are millions of Americans who couldn't afford it.

 

 

IMHO...Bad straw man arguement that has nothing to do with anything. Minwage is just that. If you stay at min wage for your life time then you are what you are. If you are under 25 and make min wag you prolly have a cell phone and cable TV. You could have health insurance instead. Your choice not my problem.

 

Clearly, at the price Ken quoted, you could NOT have health insurance instead of a cell phone and cable TV.

 

But what you're saying, of course, is that anybody who works at or near minimum wage (or even pretty far above it) late in life is screwed, in your preferred model.

 

What I was trying to do with my "straw man" was to provide some perspective. Few, if any, of us on this board are poor, or even close to it. At Ken's price, you need $5.19/hr after taxes JUST to pay for health insurance. How much do you need for rent, car payments, car insurance, food, clothing?

 

Hell, it wasn't that long ago that in many places, $900/month was a house payment, not a medical insurance payment.

[MT Wallet]

Good point about the price of a house payment.

[Whip]

 

 

What I was trying to do with my "straw man" was to provide some perspective. Few, if any, of us on this board are poor, or even close to it. At Ken's price, you need $5.19/hr after taxes JUST to pay for health insurance. How much do you need for rent, car payments, car insurance, food, clothing?

 

Hell, it wasn't that long ago that in many places, $900/month was a house payment, not a medical insurance payment.

 

 

That has been my point my insurance is less than half that. Let's start by allowing more competition and flexibility into our choices. Ken's should be able to buy the same policy I have.

 

 

Which is less than my cell phone and cable TV bill.

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

That has been my point my insurance is less than half that. Let's start by allowing more competition and flexibility into our choices. Ken's should be able to buy the same policy I have.

 

 

Which is less than my cell phone and cable TV bill.

 

 

 

So the rest of us are subsidizing you and the high US medical prices...

[Whip]

That has been my point my insurance is less than half that. Let's start by allowing more competition and flexibility into our choices. Ken's should be able to buy the same policy I have.

 

 

Which is less than my cell phone and cable TV bill.

 

 

 

So the rest of us are subsidizing you and the high US medical prices...

 

Not even close.....Texas has different rules and regs that make many things cheaper and better.

 

But I like the way you are thinking.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

Not even close.....Texas has different rules and regs that make many things cheaper and better.

You've been saying all along that the rest of the world benefits from the high US prices, if you are paying $200 for insurance and I'm paying $500 that difference is paying for some of the research. If everybody goes to the Texas plan there won't be any money for research which is your argument for high prices in the US in the first place.

[Whip]

Not even close.....Texas has different rules and regs that make many things cheaper and better.

You've been saying all along that the rest of the world benefits from the high US prices, if you are paying $200 for insurance and I'm paying $500 that difference is paying for some of the research. If everybody goes to the Texas plan there won't be any money for research which is your argument for high prices in the US in the first place.

 

 

Since it is against the law for US health insurance companies to sell across states lines your statement is false.

 

The evidence that the US subsidizes the worlds healthcare is obvious transpearant and recorded in thousands of articles. Long live the Golden Goose.

[tallman]

Bill,

I would love to get the same coverage I have now for only $900 a month.

 

Like discussions about the cost of another regulated industry, motorcycle insurance, costs vary widely based on location, coverage, and other factors.

 

I wonder what would happen to the cost of HI in Texas if we all moved there?

Or perhaps relocated 5 million of the retirees from Florida to Texas?

 

It only takes a moment to have your life changed and then one finds out just how much good health insurance coverage is worth.

[Quinn]

The thing is that health insurance companies make a profit. Tim, you're obviously a losing proposition for them. The way to bring down premiums is to get healthier people paying in without taking out or offer less benefits and higher deductables.

 

For a number of years, I lost money having health insurance; I paid in more than I took out. When I reached my later years, however, that changed. Doesn't take too many knee surguries or hernia operations to eat up my contributions. Using the power of actuarial tables, Insurance companies raised my rates every year to compensate.

 

What might work to encourage younger, healthier people to obtain a policy would be a plan where they pay for their own expenses but can get them at the group rate. now the insurance company is paying $45 for an office visit, an individual is paying $160.

 

-----

 

 

[Bob Palin]

Since it is against the law for US health insurance companies to sell across states lines your statement is false.

But that's exactly what you propose as a solution to the high prices for health insurance. When everybody is able to pay Texas prices the US Golden Goose will be dead.

[Whip]

Since it is against the law for US health insurance companies to sell across states lines your statement is false.

But that's exactly what you propose as a solution to the high prices for health insurance. When everybody is able to pay Texas prices the US Golden Goose will be dead.

 

 

 

It must be the way I write so I will take the blame for not being able to explain it to ya.

 

Your argument holds no water.

 

Knock down the walls and let others buy the same plan I have and it will be cheaper for everyone.

 

 

It is an undeniable FACT that Big Pharma allows it's products to be sold cheaper to Canada because they make their profits on US consumers.

 

US consumers are the Golden Goose for most of the goods being produced in the world.

 

If in 1985 Big Bro said everyone must have a computor because 47 million(made up number) people don't have em, we will buy everyone an IBM 8088. MS will give them only certain preapproved software items just to make it fair. No one can buy better software or PCs unless we approve the items and the price. They will only be distributed through government offices. Won't it be great, everyone gets a free 8088.

 

Where do you think we would be today?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Parts]

 

It is an undeniable FACT that Big Pharma allows it's products to be sold cheaper to Canada because they make their profits on US consumers.

 

 

So out of genuine human kindness, you say the drug companies go to all that trouble importing their drugs into Canada at a loss to themselves.

 

How nice of them. If true.

 

And even nicer when they sell their little pills for a fraction of that to Africans. Such kindness!

 

Ben

[Bob Palin]

Since it is against the law for US health insurance companies to sell across states lines your statement is false.

But that's exactly what you propose as a solution to the high prices for health insurance. When everybody is able to pay Texas prices the US Golden Goose will be dead.

 

 

 

It must be the way I write so I will take the blame for not being able to explain it to ya.

 

Your argument holds no water.

 

Knock down the walls and let others buy the same plan I have and it will be cheaper for everyone.

 

You just proved that your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! If it was cheaper for everyone where would the Golden Goose come from that supposedly pays for all that research we so kindly do for the rest of the world?

[marcopolo]

 

It is an undeniable FACT that Big Pharma allows it's products to be sold cheaper to Canada because they make their profits on US consumers.

 

 

So out of genuine human kindness, you say the drug companies go to all that trouble importing their drugs into Canada at a loss to themselves.

 

How nice of them. If true.

 

And even nicer when they sell their little pills for a fraction of that to Africans. Such kindness!

 

Ben

 

You beat me to the punch on that one, Ben. Yes, I didn't realize how philanthropic major corporations were (maybe that's why -- in the U.S. at least -- they're considered "persons". They do have a heart after all.

[Ken H.]

It is an undeniable FACT that Big Pharma allows it's products to be sold cheaper to Canada because they make their profits on US consumers.

So out of genuine human kindness, you say the drug companies go to all that trouble importing their drugs into Canada at a loss to themselves.

 

How nice of them. If true.

 

And even nicer when they sell their little pills for a fraction of that to Africans. Such kindness!

 

Ben

You beat me to the punch on that one, Ben. Yes, I didn't realize how philanthropic major corporations were (maybe that's why -- in the U.S. at least -- they're considered "persons". They do have a heart after all.

LOL. Yeah, I would certainly like to see some proof that US pharmaceutical companies are selling their products to Canada (heck to anyone) at a loss. What company anywhere sells anything in mass bulk intentionally at a loss!?!

 

IF there’s a discount to Canada going on it’s because of its mass purchasing power. Which is of course a standard business practice whether talking about billions a year in guaranteed drug purchases, or buying a bigger box of cereal. Or oh, like, say discounting a barrel of oil to the USA because of the massive amount it buys from, oh, say, Alberta.

 

This 'Canada leaches on the USA' bashing gets tiring sometimes.

[Whip]

I will let someone else explain it to ya, because I obviously don't write clear enough.

 

 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2000/05/why_do_drugs_cost_less_in_canada.html

 

http://econlog.econlib.org/GQE/gqe370.html

 

 

It is okay, I am used to being the only one that knows what is going on.

 

 

 

Then while you're at it check with Suzanne Aucoin and see how she feels about Canadian health care drug policy?

 

 

 

 

[Whip]

You just proved that your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! If it was cheaper for everyone where would the Golden Goose come from that supposedly pays for all that research we so kindly do for the rest of the world?

 

 

You are confusing Healthcare with Health Insurance.

 

With out the US Healthcare Market the entire worlds health will be worse and/or more expensive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ken H.]

I will let someone else explain it to ya, because I obviously don't write clear enough.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2000/05/why_do_drugs_cost_less_in_canada.html

 

http://econlog.econlib.org/GQE/gqe370.html

Oh come on Larry, you can do better than that. The Slate article is 12 years old, the other over nine.

 

And even then admits the drugs are sold in Canada at a profit. Are Canadians to take the blame because the pharmaceutical companies are gouging USA Americans? Seems a bit of miss-directed anger to me. Seems to be your outrage shouldn’t be that Canadians are pay so little, rather that you are paying so much!

[Whip]

Nothing has changed about the facts in those articles.

 

I am not outraged about anything I love Canada I even like a few Canadians.

 

I supplied facts and analysis to back up my statements,(I would not have made them if I did not have the facts).

 

 

I have made my point. If you choose not to believe that is okay with me.

 

 

I like real world numbers and stats I ain't into beliefs and feelings.

 

 

The fact remains. The US Consumer Market is the reason we live longer and better lives. Proving once again that profit is the greatest motivator of mankind.

 

 

I now rest my case.

 

 

This one was for Marty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brennaman]

 

C'mon Ken, how much Canada bashing goes on here? I am sure there is more than I know about, but I would bet it is less than I see coming this direction from just a small few north of the border. Now that I know you are listening, where is a link backing up your claim of Canadian research per capita higher than the USA?

[Marty Hill]

[quote

 

This one was for Marty.

 

 

 

No idea why my name was inserted/would prefer it not happening again.

[Whip]

[quote

 

This one was for Marty.

 

 

 

No idea why my name was inserted/would prefer it not happening again.

 

 

I must have the wrong Marty.

 

 

[Ken H.]

It’s a red herring argument anyway Larry. One could say the same thing about most any product. E.g. - The price of all petroleum products is higher in Canada than in the USA (and our taxes on it are less). So it would be just as nonsense of an argument to make that Canada’s oil is sold cheaper in the USA because the oil companies make their profits on Canadian consumers. That we are subsidizing your lower gas prices. And, just like pharmaceuticals, we invested all the R&D to develop it.

 

Reality doesn’t work that way though. Companies don’t intentionally discount prices in one market because their margins are better in another. They try to get the highest price they can in every single market. Many other factors, depending upon the product, are what influences prices.

[Peter Parts]

If American consumers are subsidizing the rest of the world, is that another example of the US system being disfunctional?

 

Actually, the situation with drug development is like health care in general. People think it is "private enterprise" but in fact it is a government activity. When last I read about it, the government (through universities) was doing the bulk of the inventing with drug companies doing the testing and packaging.

 

The drug companies have strong-armed both US and Canadian governments for all kinds of (the usual pandering) give-aways such as long protection for drug patents and TV advertizing (a major curse in medicine and not permitted in Canada).

 

Drug companies do have enormous tax write-offs for R&D but that includes a lot of dubious stuff like making drug combos, minor tweaks to double the length patent protection, and, I don't kid you, market research which the drug companies identify as research to make it seem they are big into discovery.

 

Ben

[MT Wallet]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-greece-healthbre85e0up-20120615,0,3841319.story

 

This article might be a sobering reminder "free" health care ain't free. Looks like the link isn't live-sorry bout that.

[Ken H.]

All of Greece is crumbling (and next Italy, then Spain). The fact that it’s taking the healthcare system down with it is no surprise. And everything else. Coloration does not equal causation.

 

Besides, anyone who ever said any structure of providing health care is “free” is an idiot.

[MT Wallet]

Besides, anyone who ever said any structure of providing health care is “free” is an idiot.-Ken H.

 

Sorry the link didn't work. Ken are you being deliberately obtuse? The simple point is the government of Greece is out of money. Too many social obligations and other spending. Now the medical health systems is crashed and burning. Although Canada and the U.S. have better economies the possibility of being spread too thin exists say in the case of a country with a 14 trillion $ debt. There will be a tipping point(like Greece)

where the social contract will be abandoned, by whatever mechanism, to preserve the (a) country. So let's advocate for more government spending in the U.S. for health care while gutting PI

 

In a large period of the last century economics was taught that, is domestic spending, countries had to make the choice of "guns or butter" recognizing the(any) country's resources were finite. In the case of Canada they chose butter-domestic spending. With the villian to the south keeping the bad guys at bay Canada didn't need to spend militarily-the guns part. You're welcome! So you have free health care in as much as you don't have to pay out of pocket.Your insurance premium is a tax as we've previously established. The Greeks chose butter and plenty of it, more than they could afford. No or insuffient income=broke.

 

The U.S. has vacilated between guns, less guns and then butter, more butter or an (im)balance of the two. Lately, we've forgotten the part about finite resources in favor of having it all. Yeah, it's not free-someone always pays, always pays even with a single payer system. The danger will be when the government realizes they are broke, can't borrow anymore money to put off the day of reconing and has to tell it's citizenry what cuts it will make. Without PI there is not going to be a fall back position like the Greeks are finding out right now!

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Parts]

Well now, you make it seem absolutely breath-takingly simple. You are the Wallenda of economics!

 

I don't think anybody thinks health care is free. Just a matter of how the the money is spread around, can be whole bubble be deflated a bit by using a single-payer system, who collects and who pays, how much flows through government hands (and can that part be made more transparent so people can understand the present role of government better), and so on.

 

I can't say (nor can anybody) what is the protection afforded by maintaining a military establishment twice the size of the rest of the world combined (or something like that). It may be very helpful. Or it may be, like with drugs prices, another dysfunctional sector.

 

I wonder if the immense stimulation of US defense industries from US tax dollars has been repaid the prices charged in the large sales of US defense gear to other countries. Sound like the earlier argument about US consumers subsidizing world drug prices?

 

BTW, I think I heard that Canada lost more lives on a per capita basis in Afghanistan than the US... so far.

 

Ben

[Bill_Walker]

The simple point is the government of Greece is out of money. Too many social obligations and other spending. Now the medical health systems is crashed and burning.

 

Which, as Ken pointed out, had virtually nothing to do with their rate of social spending, and everything to do with a whole long list of other issues Greece had, starting with the fact that they hid negative information about their economy in order to be admitted to the Eurozone in the first place.

 

Germany and Sweden spend a higher percentage of GDP on social programs than any other Eurozone states, and their economies are doing very well, thank you. Blaming social spending for Europe's issues, which, you may recall, were brought on by our banking crisis, is simply propaganda from those ideologically opposed to government social spending.

[Ken H.]

Besides, anyone who ever said any structure of providing health care is “free” is an idiot.-Ken H.

My only point was that nothing is free. I get irritated at my own fellow Canadians that profess that we have “free health care.” It’s not true and say such does nothing to further the credibility of our UHC system.

[Peter Parts]

As far as I am concerned, the fact that an ailing person finds it free to go get the care they might need, is a very important defining characteristic of Canadian health care. That makes an awful lot of difference.

 

Anybody who directly pays for all or part of their visit to the doctor: ever had to decide of your condition was "worth" the cost of the visit? Ever decided not to go based on cost and then discovered it was the wrong decision?

 

Ben

[Quinn]

So, is it free if you don't pay taxes? Is it real expensive if you do?

 

 

------

 

 

[Boffin]

So, is it free if you don't pay taxes? Is it real expensive if you do?

 

 

------

 

 

Canadians - and we in the UK - pay less per-capita into our health services (from all sources) than US citizens pay into theirs. In the UK that equates to half of what the US pays.

 

Total expenditure on Health Care as % of GDP

 

We may have to wait longer for elective treatments (I don't - my company provides me with a taxable health insurance which covers such items) but serious or life-threatening issues are dealt with immediately. One data-point - I was bitten by a feral cat we we fostering for the RSPCA. The tooth penetrated the second knuckle of the third finger on my right-hand. The next day (Wednesday) most of my hand was red, so I went to see my GP (same-day) who gave me some antibiotics (approx $10 prescription fee) and told me to contact them if there ware no improvement. On the Friday the redness had extended onto my wrist. I saw my GP (same day) and was told I would be admitted to hospital for observation. I packed a bag and got my son to drive me to the hospital (an ambulance was available if I had no transport). I was admitted that morning and examined by a consultant surgeon. He asked if I had eaten that day - I had had a cup of tea earlier, so he told me I would be scheduled for surgery the next morning. That was to be the first of three operations under general anaesthetic to wash out the joint. I was also put on high-dose intravenous antibiotics to prevent the septicaemia that was thought to be very likely to follow without treatment - potentially fatal at my age.

A week in hospital, a further week at home visited by the district nurse to give me intravenous antibiotic shots, total direct cost to me - $10 (no fee for hospital prescriptions)

If any of my family are stricken by health issues, the only financial implications come from being unable to work - though my company will pay me for the first six-months as part of my remuneration package. How much is peace of mind worth? To me, it is almost beyond price.

 

 

Andy

[Peter Parts]

Earlier I asked if anybody was still attached to the American Way of Health. Sure enough, some posted "yes."

 

Maybe it should be asked if anybody has changed their minds in light of the warm endorsement of health and health payment systems outside the US they've been reading here?

 

If Andy's operation had taken place in the US, the patient would have no money for a vacation this summer and maybe the next too.

 

My doctor visits aren't free at all. I need to pay about $1.50 for a streetcar trip (very fast since it is entirely on a reserved right of way with the streetcars controlling the traffic signals) to my doctor's office. Luckily, with a 2-hour transfer period, I can ride home on the same fare... saving another $1.50.

 

Who says health care is free?

 

Ben

 

[brennaman]

If Andy's operation had taken place in the US, the patient would have no money for a vacation this summer and maybe the next too.

 

That is not true. With my total out of pocket expenses, it may have come to $2500. give me a break. I had surgery a couple years ago, nothing major, but I had to spend the night, and had a week off work. It was under $700. I still went on vacation that year.

 

 

Ben

[Peter Parts]

If Andy's operation had taken place in the US, the patient would have no money for a vacation this summer and maybe the next too.

 

That is not true. With my total out of pocket expenses, it may have come to $2500. give me a break. I had surgery a couple years ago, nothing major, but I had to spend the night, and had a week off work. It was under $700. I still went on vacation that year.

 

Fair enough.

 

What is your monthly insurance payment? Or the payment your company makes for you in lieu of salary?

 

B.

[brennaman]

If Andy's operation had taken place in the US, the patient would have no money for a vacation this summer and maybe the next too.

 

That is not true. With my total out of pocket expenses, it may have come to $2500. give me a break. I had surgery a couple years ago, nothing major, but I had to spend the night, and had a week off work. It was under $700. I still went on vacation that year.

 

Fair enough.

 

What is your monthly insurance payment? Or the payment your company makes for you in lieu of salary?

 

B.

 

Probably a little more than your taxes, but I do have to help pay for a few uninvited guests, and people that would rather live off the system. I don't mind helping those less fortunate than myself. But there are some I would rather not help support.

[tallman]

If Andy's operation had taken place in the US, the patient would have no money for a vacation this summer and maybe the next too.

 

That is not true. With my total out of pocket expenses, it may have come to $2500. give me a break. I had surgery a couple years ago, nothing major, but I had to spend the night, and had a week off work. It was under $700. I still went on vacation that year.

 

Fair enough.

 

What is your monthly insurance payment? Or the payment your company makes for you in lieu of salary?

 

B.

 

Probably a little more than your taxes, but I do have to help pay for a few uninvited guests, and people that would rather live off the system. I don't mind helping those less fortunate than myself. But there are some I would rather not help support.

 

 

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

[Bob Palin]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

I don't know about his but mine does. At the local clinic fees are on a sliding scale based on income. If you have insurance you pay the agreed insurance rate, if you make nothing you pay very little, if you make a middling amount but have no insurance you pay full whack.

[Peter Parts]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

I don't know about his but mine does. At the local clinic fees are on a sliding scale based on income. If you have insurance you pay the agreed insurance rate, if you make nothing you pay very little, if you make a middling amount but have no insurance you pay full whack.

 

Why ever do you go to THAT clinic? Or would it be discourteous (and un-Canadian) to wonder if you are one of those who benefit from the sliding scale?

 

Maybe the real point is that the US system seems to be a mess, with unpredictable winners and losers, mostly losers except for the insurance companies and their lobbyists.

 

The first step in fixing US health care is to have some strong rules about election campaign financing and maybe have it come from public funds (which makes it more like elections in Canada). And have election activities largely by volunteers (ahem, ahem) going door to door instead of advertizing moneyball. What do you think of that?

 

Ben

[tallman]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

I don't know about his but mine does. At the local clinic fees are on a sliding scale based on income. If you have insurance you pay the agreed insurance rate, if you make nothing you pay very little, if you make a middling amount but have no insurance you pay full whack.

 

That would be your copay, not your premium.

I doubt your insurer pays that clinic anything related to uninsured clients from your premium .

 

[brennaman]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

It is not much different from Wal mart. When they set their prices, they take into account theft, or the people that don't pay. So yea, my ins. pay's for the uninsured. They just charge more for the people that pay.

[Bob Palin]

That would be your copay, not your premium.

I doubt your insurer pays that clinic anything related to uninsured clients from your premium .

It's not the copay, it's the total bill. So although my insurance company may not be aware of it they are in a way paying for the low income people to use the clinic.

 

Why would I use that clinic? (I never have actually). It's 7 miles away, the next nearest facility is 65 miles and has a terrible reputation. The one time I needed to visit I went 86 miles to the next place. They referred me for tests for which I had to go 200 miles. I would pay the insurance rate at the clinic since I buy my own insurance ($500 a month). The result of my mentioned visit was a mass of confusing, inaccurate, overpriced bills. Most of them charged the full rate which the insurance companies won't pay, so I was liable for the rest. It turns out they will settle for less then they write the rest of as a uncollected loss and don't pay taxes on what they collected (something like that). It's a giant scam cheating everybody possible.

[brennaman]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

I don't know about his but mine does. At the local clinic fees are on a sliding scale based on income. If you have insurance you pay the agreed insurance rate, if you make nothing you pay very little, if you make a middling amount but have no insurance you pay full whack.

 

Why ever do you go to THAT clinic? Or would it be discourteous (and un-Canadian) to wonder if you are one of those who benefit from the sliding scale?

 

Maybe the real point is that the US system seems to be a mess, with unpredictable winners and losers, mostly losers except for the insurance companies and their lobbyists.

 

The first step in fixing US health care is to have some strong rules about election campaign financing and maybe have it come from public funds (which makes it more like elections in Canada). And have election activities largely by volunteers (ahem, ahem) going door to door instead of advertizing moneyball. What do you think of that?

 

Ben

I think Peter hates our system more than anyone on the board. (Except maybe Ken) And you don't have to use it.

[Dave McReynolds]

 

It's not the copay, it's the total bill. So although my insurance company may not be aware of it they are in a way paying for the low income people to use the clinic.

 

Why would I use that clinic? (I never have actually). It's 7 miles away, the next nearest facility is 65 miles and has a terrible reputation. The one time I needed to visit I went 86 miles to the next place. They referred me for tests for which I had to go 200 miles. I would pay the insurance rate at the clinic since I buy my own insurance ($500 a month). The result of my mentioned visit was a mass of confusing, inaccurate, overpriced bills. Most of them charged the full rate which the insurance companies won't pay, so I was liable for the rest. It turns out they will settle for less then they write the rest of as a uncollected loss and don't pay taxes on what they collected (something like that). It's a giant scam cheating everybody possible.

 

Generally speaking, when a healthcare provider agrees to deal with an insurance company or Medicare, they also agree to accept the reimbursement rates. Meaning they can't charge the patient more than that. The write off of the balance doesn't reduce their taxes, it just reduces the amount they can collect.

 

Clearly, unless a healthcare provider goes broke, it must collect the cost of uncompensated care from someone, so that cost has to be included in the amount collected from insurance plans, Medicare, and private pay somehow.

[Peter Parts]

Are you saying your private medical insurance payment somehow pays for uninsured?

 

I don't know about his but mine does. At the local clinic fees are on a sliding scale based on income. If you have insurance you pay the agreed insurance rate, if you make nothing you pay very little, if you make a middling amount but have no insurance you pay full whack.

 

Why ever do you go to THAT clinic? Or would it be discourteous (and un-Canadian) to wonder if you are one of those who benefit from the sliding scale?

 

Maybe the real point is that the US system seems to be a mess, with unpredictable winners and losers, mostly losers except for the insurance companies and their lobbyists.

 

The first step in fixing US health care is to have some strong rules about election campaign financing and maybe have it come from public funds (which makes it more like elections in Canada). And have election activities largely by volunteers (ahem, ahem) going door to door instead of advertizing moneyball. What do you think of that?

 

Ben

I think Peter hates our system more than anyone on the board. (Except maybe Ken) And you don't have to use it.

Umm, just a bit personal there, eh?

 

Ben

 

[tallman]

It's not the copay, it's the total bill. So although my insurance company may not be aware of it they are in a way paying for the low income people to use the clinic.

 

Why would I use that clinic? (I never have actually). It's 7 miles away, the next nearest facility is 65 miles and has a terrible reputation. The one time I needed to visit I went 86 miles to the next place. They referred me for tests for which I had to go 200 miles. I would pay the insurance rate at the clinic since I buy my own insurance ($500 a month). The result of my mentioned visit was a mass of confusing, inaccurate, overpriced bills. Most of them charged the full rate which the insurance companies won't pay, so I was liable for the rest. It turns out they will settle for less then they write the rest of as a uncollected loss and don't pay taxes on what they collected (something like that). It's a giant scam cheating everybody possible.

 

Generally speaking, when a healthcare provider agrees to deal with an insurance company or Medicare, they also agree to accept the reimbursement rates. Meaning they can't charge the patient more than that. The write off of the balance doesn't reduce their taxes, it just reduces the amount they can collect.

 

Clearly, unless a healthcare provider goes broke, it must collect the cost of uncompensated care from someone, so that cost has to be included in the amount collected from insurance plans, Medicare, and private pay somehow.

 

 

Oh, I see, sort of like when one buyer gets a BMW at a lower price when he buys from the dealership, all of the other BMW buyers around the country

who didn't have subsidized the purchase of buyer #1.

Sort of makes you wonder if buyer number one should have gotten a discount in the first place.