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Thottle body fun and games


richs

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I have been reading a lot lately about cleaning the throttle bodies and saturday seemed like a good time to do so. I had no idea if this has ever been done before on this bike.

 

A little background, I have a 2001 R1100RT with 45k miles. I have a homemade manometer that I have used several times now for syncing the throttle bodies. One reason for cleaning the throttle bodies now is because of horrible surging since the last time I sync'd the throttle bodies.

 

So, I removed the throttle bodies and cleaned them with carb cleaner. They were pretty gunked up. I did not completely disassemble them. Just pulled them out and let them hang. After cleaning them, I noticed a little daylight could be seen when the butterfly was closed on the LH side. No daylight could be seen in the RH side. I do not think there was any daylight prior to cleaning the LH side which was most likely due to the gunk. It sounded like both sides were resting against their stops. Put both BBS at about 1.5 turns.

 

Put them back together, warm up the bike and then connected the manometer. After starting the motor, I notice the manometer has the fluid leaving through the LH side. Not only is the fluid moving but it is no longer moving as a single bubble. It has all broken up into smaller bubbles. I take this to mean I have a major imbalance going on.

 

I took both throttle bodies back out and inspect them again and make sure everything looks good. Did not see anything wrong other than the afore-mentioned daylight in the LH side.

 

After fiddling around with the manometer several times and getting fluid back to where it is supposed to be, I gave up on using it.

 

I thought maybe a throttle stop adjustment might be called for but was not comfortable with doing that.

 

I wanted to ride today so I decided to sync the throttles by ear... so to speak. First, I backed the BBS out on both in unison to get an idle of about 1000+. I then tweaked each side to the best sounding smoothest running setting. Took the bike for a short test ride and it seemed pretty good. Put the tupperware back on and called it a day.

 

This morning, I took a 200 mile ride. The bike seems like it is running the best it ever has for me. I still feel a little surge occasionally but it was minor compare to what it has been. I noticed the bike runs better in the 3k to 4k range which it has not in the past. I even ran it in 5th gear quite a bit today which is abnormal.

 

So, now I have a fairly well running bike that is most likely out of synch at idle and possibly at above idle as well ( I did not adjust the RH cable adj. ). I would like to know what anyone else thinks about this and what they would do about it. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

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Evening Rich

 

Something not sounding right there.

 

First off - seeing that light gap around the throttle plate on the L/H side should have meant the fluid got sucked out the R/H side (IF) the L/H side was really passing more air than the right. Tightest closing throttle plate has the highest vacuum assuming the BBS screws are even & flowing correctly.

 

So one of two things stand out in my mind--

 

First is, you didn't have the R/H throttle cable housing fully seated in the TB adjustment fuerrel (real easy to do that)

 

Or, with all those air bubbles in the U tube fluid you have leak in one of the hose or fittings on your manometer (probably the R/H side hose or fittings). Even a very small air leak can allow the fluid to be sucked out with lots of bubbles.

 

In any case if you are happy with the way it runs then no big deal but for me personally I would want to put a TRUSTED manometer on those TB's & verify a good verifiable idle & above idle cross side balance.

 

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Something not sounding right there.

 

First off - seeing that light gap around the throttle plate on the L/H side should have meant the fluid got sucked out the R/H side (IF) the L/H side was really passing more air than the right. Tightest closing throttle plate has the highest vacuum assuming the BBS screws are even & flowing correctly.

It is possible the daylight was seen on the RH side. I may have that mixed up.

So one of two things stand out in my mind--

 

First is, you didn't have the R/H throttle cable housing fully seated in the TB adjustment fuerrel (real easy to do that)

 

Or, with all those air bubbles in the U tube fluid you have leak in one of the hose or fittings on your manometer (probably the R/H side hose or fittings). Even a very small air leak can allow the fluid to be sucked out with lots of bubbles.

 

In any case if you are happy with the way it runs then no big deal but for me personally I would want to put a TRUSTED manometer on those TB's & verify a good verifiable idle & above idle cross side balance.

 

I believe I have both throttle bodies properly seated and the manometer had worked well up until this point but the next time I have the bike apart I will recheck.

 

I really would like to have it setup properly so I will probably be looking at it again soon.

 

You did not mention anything about the daylight in one side but not the other. Is that normal? I would think they would be nearly identical in that regard...

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Evening Rich

 

The daylight by itself doesn't mean much it is the actual base air flow that has to be the same. Obviously if one side has the throttle plate worn, or not centered correctly, or has a worn throttle shaft or bushings then the air flow will probably be different.

 

I didn't mention the daylight as that didn't fit with the TB side vs the fluid flow out of the manometer.

 

To see where you are really at air flow wise just set the BBS to 1-1/2 turns out from seated then get a TRUSTED leak free manometer on it & see what the manometer says for side to side balance.

 

 

Added: one thing that's important & you want to check for is that BOTH side throttle cams lift off the stop screw at the very same time.

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roger 04 rt
...

 

I noticed the bike runs better in the 3k to 4k range which it has not in the past. I even ran it in 5th gear quite a bit today which is abnormal.

 

...

 

When you get your TBs straightened out, have a look at richening your mixture. You a bit of fuel added, the 1100 and 1150 can pack a lot of punch in 4th, 5th and (6th) gear in the 2500 RPM range. Boxer Low RPM Torque

 

Here a chart.

lowtorque.jpg

 

 

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Decided to take it apart again today and recheck my work. I have a new Russell seat coming and I want to be breaking it in next weekend.

 

First off, both throttle bodies have a little daylight when closed so scratch that off the list.

 

I verified both throttle cables were properly seated. I then took both throttle bodies off again and could not see anything wrong. Put them back on and warmed up the bike. Hooked up the manometer and no change... still sucking fluid into the LH side.

 

Verified as best I could that both sides were opening at the same time. Even though both throttle cables sounded like they were fully closing against the stop I backed off both throttle cable adjustments to make sure they were both closed. Hooked up manometer and same result.

 

While looking over the LH side, it looked like the throttle stop screw blue paint had been disrupted. I pulled that side once again and saw the throttle stop screw had been changed and I have no idea by whom. With that knowledge, I thought what the heck? I turned the throttle stop screw in about 1/4 turn which I think opens the LH side a bit more at idle. Hooked up the manometer and noticed definite improvement; I.E. less suckage. After a few more adjustments, I had the manometer equal for both sides. Tightened LH throttle cable and then tightened/adjusted the RH cable at higher rpms. And it seems like it is running real well.

 

Took it out on 10 to 15 mile jaunt and it seems like it is running as well as it ever has under my ownership. Still some surging...

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Peter Parts

I never liked using a liquid manometer because it is is too sensitive and uncalibrated. Dual vacuum gauges are cheap, accurate, and give you a whole world of information more about your engine... and even more if you take the bike for a test ride with them on.

 

Maybe with your TBs clean, you could close the BBSs tight and use the manometer to equalize the butterflies and continue from there.

 

Not sure I follow your details, but if the butterflies are more closed when sitting on the stops as compared to the factory setting, you'll get a richer mixture and less surging or vice versa.

 

Ben

everywhere between here and Chicago today will be hot, medium, cool, wet, or dry or all in turns

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Still some surging...

 

Pull your cat code plug and throw it in the garbage.

 

As a note, those stop screws will vibrate loose and disappear once they've been moved. You need to drip a little locktite onto it.

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Morning Rich

 

Sounds like you have it sorted out. That L/H side throttle plate base opening change setting does agree with the side sucking fluid out of your manometer.

 

Using that liquid manometer is the way to set it as those things are super accurate so (IF) you have the BBS set correctly & evenly side to side you should have your base air flow back pretty close to correct.

 

You now need to check your TPS setting (TPS voltage) to be sure that it is close to .385 volts (with choke off). Turning that L/H base idle screw has changed your TPS voltage. You have no idea if that is where it belongs now. Use a good high impedance volt meter or good quality DVM so the meter itself doesn't add circuit load & skew the reading.

 

 

As to the surging-- First get the TPS re-set & checked (to .385v), then play with removing your CCP, if removing the CCP leaves a decent idle speed then just try riding it for surging, if removing the CCP jacks the idle RPM up too far you might have to turn the BBS in a bit to lower the idle RPM then re-balance. If you want to leave your stock CCP in you can also try just unplugging the 02 sensor & cover the removed connectors so moisture doesn't get in to the open connectors.

 

If it still surges with the CCP removed (probably not very much if it even does) you can try adding a bit of resistance (2.5K then try 5k) in series with the intake air temp sensor (on top of the air cleaner box) if that helps then look into using to production IAT's in series or adding something like a Booster Plug.

 

Usually just disconnecting the 02 sensor or removing the CCP will eliminate most of the light steady throttle surging without hurting your fuel economy very much.

 

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I never liked using a liquid manometer because it is is too sensitive and uncalibrated. Dual vacuum gauges are cheap, accurate, and give you a whole world of information more about your engine... and even more if you take the bike for a test ride with them on.

The reason I like my liquid manometer is because it is sensitive, does not need calibration and above all is cheap. Of course, using the manometer on a test ride is not possible.

Maybe with your TBs clean, you could close the BBSs tight and use the manometer to equalize the butterflies and continue from there.

I basically did that. I had the BBS's at 1.5 turns when I was adjusting the LH throttle stop. When finished with the throttle stop I then used the BBS's to fine tune.

Not sure I follow your details, but if the butterflies are more closed when sitting on the stops as compared to the factory setting, you'll get a richer mixture and less surging or vice versa.

I did not touch the RH throttle stop, just brought the LH in to get equal pressure on the manometer.

Ben

everywhere between here and Chicago today will be hot, medium, cool, wet, or dry or all in turns

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Thanks for the loctite tip. Probably will be back in there soon and will do this.

 

As for the cat code plug, I need to think about this before going there.

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Morning Rich

 

Sounds like you have it sorted out. That L/H side throttle plate base opening change setting does agree with the side sucking fluid out of your manometer.

Yes it does. While standing there wondering what to do next, I remembered your comments and began thinking about what I was doing. Basically, it is a tube from the butterfly valve to the engine intake and as long as the connection of the tube to the engine head is airtight there really is only the butterfly valve controlling the vacuum (assuming valves and BBS's are close to where they should be). Thats when the lightbulb clicked on, its got to be the throttle stops.

Using that liquid manometer is the way to set it as those things are super accurate so (IF) you have the BBS set correctly & evenly side to side you should have your base air flow back pretty close to correct.

I had the BBS at 1.5 turns when adjusting the LH throttle stop. Secured the throttle stop and then used the BBS's to fine tune.

You now need to check your TPS setting (TPS voltage) to be sure that it is close to .385 volts (with choke off). Turning that L/H base idle screw has changed your TPS voltage. You have no idea if that is where it belongs now. Use a good high impedance volt meter or good quality DVM so the meter itself doesn't add circuit load & skew the reading.

I did not check this. Any tips on how to attach the DVM leads. I have tried this before and it is not so easy.

 

As to the surging-- First get the TPS re-set & checked (to .385v), then play with removing your CCP, if removing the CCP leaves a decent idle speed then just try riding it for surging, if removing the CCP jacks the idle RPM up too far you might have to turn the BBS in a bit to lower the idle RPM then re-balance. If you want to leave your stock CCP in you can also try just unplugging the 02 sensor & cover the removed connectors so moisture doesn't get in to the open connectors.

 

If it still surges with the CCP removed (probably not very much if it even does) you can try adding a bit of resistance (2.5K then try 5k) in series with the intake air temp sensor (on top of the air cleaner box) if that helps then look into using to production IAT's in series or adding something like a Booster Plug.

 

Usually just disconnecting the 02 sensor or removing the CCP will eliminate most of the light steady throttle surging without hurting your fuel economy very much.

I have been talking to Roger about using the LC1 and a wideband O2 sensor. However, his experimentation only covers the R1150. He has no reason to think it will not work for the R1100 and neither do I. You have an opinion on this?

 

I think the LC1 would definitely take care of closed loop operation. The only question I have is if what is learned by the ECU in closed loop is applied to the open loop settings as well. However, I am also thinking that open loop is not where the surge occurs and maybe I can leave the open loop as is.

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I have been talking to Roger about using the LC1 and a wideband O2 sensor. However, his experimentation only covers the R1150. He has no reason to think it will not work for the R1100 and neither do I. You have an opinion on this?

 

I think the LC1 would definitely take care of closed loop operation. The only question I have is if what is learned by the ECU in closed loop is applied to the open loop settings as well. However, I am also thinking that open loop is not where the surge occurs and maybe I can leave the open loop as is.

 

Morning Rich

 

On the TPS-- get the engine somewhat warm (doesn't need to be smoking hot). This is to get all the throttle body parts to expand to working tolerances & the TPS resistors to normal temperatures.

 

Then use a high impedance meter (or quality DVM) to monitor the voltage between pin 1 & pin 4 of the TPS plug. Ignition (ON) but engine not running & CHOKE OFF.

 

Personally I use a little breakout setup I made using the correct pins & connectors. That allows great DVM contact without back probing any pins or wires.

 

I presume you don't have access to the proper pins (terminals) to do the above so you have a couple of choices.

 

_First is to unplug the TPS connector then place a very fine copper wire (a strand or two removed from a lamp cord) between the TPS pins & the reinserted harness connector pins. If done carefully this will work just fine.

 

_Or leave the TPS connector plugged in to the TPS then insert a needle or opened safety pin in the #1 & #4 harness connector pushed up until it touches the inner terminals. This will work but does penetrate wire seals & has a habit of pulling loose while using.

 

On your surging?-- AFTER you get the TPS re-set then make a good baseline ride.

Then try the CCP removal. That will force the open loop (non Cat) European calibration. In most cases that will eliminate most of the light throttle surging on the U.S. 1100. Running that way won't hurt a thing & even fuel economy should not be too bad.

 

If it still surges then use the IAT sensor to force it a bit richer (either Booster Plug or homemade resistance device).

 

If you want to lean the idle back out a bit then just make up or buy a idle trim pot (your bike already has the proper wire harness & connector on it). That will allow you to trim the idle fueling a bit leaner if you like.

 

On riding with a "U" tube manometer-- you can if you make a nice short one. Use your longer one to do the static adjustments sitting still then install the short one on a bracket or GPS ball mount & ride it.

Won't tell you much though as you really need to get the FUELING even cross sides in the surging operating range as even air flow (within reason) really doesn't mean much if the fueling isn't pretty even.

 

You are correct in thinking that the majority of the surging is happening in Closed Loop. But they can still surge in open loop if the fueling is not even side to side or you have a lean spot in open loop fueling in the surging operating range.

 

 

On the (1100 ONLY)-- In the old days we would remove the CCP, install spark plugs with a .040" electrode gap, run the TPS up to .385-.390 volts (warm engine), trim the idle RPM back down by turning the BBS in a little. In most cases that would eliminate the light throttle surging or lower it enough to not be bothersome. If they still surged enough to notice we would trick the IAT a bit & or play with the base ign timing. Some would play with (raise) fuel pressure (I never had to though).

 

I did have an 1100R (not RT) that was stinker for surging even after all the above was done (except raising fuel pressure) . I wired in a relay from the alternator output to the fuel injectors & triggered that relay from the stock injector power wire. That raised the injector base voltage a bit & made the surging very livable (this ONLY works if open loop operation is forced).

 

Bottom line-- in my past experience (be that long ago though) the 1100 BOXER was actually easier to eliminate surging on than the later (larger cylinder) 1150 single spark engine.

 

My take on the LC-1 on the 1100 is that it is probably the ultimate way to get proper surge free operation & retain closed loop. But it is unproven on the 1100 Ma 2.2 system. No reason to believe it wouldn't work though.

 

In the old days we could get surge free 1100 Ma 2.2 operation with great low RPM throttle response without the LC-1. It took a Techlusion (Fuel Nanny) unit to get the best lower RPM throttle response under load though.

 

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As for the cat code plug, I need to think about this before going there.

 

It takes two minutes. If you don't like it, put it back.

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roger 04 rt

One of the reasons it is probably harder today, than several years ago, to eliminate 1100 surge is the 4% leaning of the open loop fueling in regions like mine and richs's that mandate E10 fuel.

 

These days, when you use an Open Loop solution (like pulling the Coding Plug on an 1100) or pulling the O2 sensor plug and adding a BoosterPlug. It is easy to end up back near 14.7:1. Let's say pulling the Coding plug lowers you to 14.0:1, then run E10 and it's leaned out by 4% and you're at 14.6:1. Or if you pull the O2 sensor AND add a BoosterPlug, the BP gets you 6% richer then the E10 takes you 4% leaner for a net 2% richer mixture. I'm only talking about what happens when using E10 here, if your gas doesn't have ethanol, one of the aforementioned solutions can work.

 

So an approach for E10 regions for 1100RTs is to pull the coding plug and do as DR suggested and run a BoosterPlug/second IAT/resistor. That can get you to the low 14s or high 13s. (if I pulled the coding plug on an 1100GS, I would still find a way to ground 87a, but that's just me)

 

I haven't tried an LC-1 on an 1100, just on my '04 RT. if someone tried it, they would immediately be able to plot the no coding plug AFR which would be interesting to learn for the 1100.

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I am real tempted to try the LC1. I am thinking about it but I have some other going on so it may take awhile.

 

One of those other things going on: my Russell Day Long seat arrived. Wahoo! I will be riding this weekend...

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