Scorned for positive image...?

[DaveTheAffable]

There are many people who are icons. Some are successful in their careers. Some are successful quietly. Others are flamboyant.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

It is thought by some, that a lifestyle that is steeped in drugs and alcohol is NOT a good thing.

 

It is thought by some that a lifestyle committed to a "faith" or a "higher moral standard" CAN be a good thing.

 

While alive, most gave Whitney Houston a pass on her drug use. "After all, she's such a beautiful person and singer". And now in her death, ANGRY that any one should say that her drug useage was sad, or a matter of choice.

 

In contrast, when you have someone like (by example only) Tim Tebow who chooses to portray his faith, he is publicly villafied and scorned to his face... while still alive. No pass given. Where is the, "Hey, if that's his thing, I wish him success as a football player".

 

I know that not all people who pronounce "faith" are perfect, and indeed there have been, and will be, hippocrits.

 

But which do we long for? Do we personally long to be a sucessful singer drug addict? Or...would we wish for Whitney to be a good singer, and be strong in overcoming her addiction?

 

Would we wish to be a successful football player who has a faith? Would we wish that Tim Tebow be a good ball player and NOT fail in his faith?

 

----------

 

Friday night... I have a cold... and... was just thinkin'

 

[Dave McReynolds]

No doubt people of faith are puzzled why someone like Tebow would be criticized for public demonstrations thereof. What if he really believed in Amway, not as a savior necessarily, but just as a worthwhile escape from poverty for anyone who would dedicate themselves to an Amway career. And he believed in it so strongly that he unfurled an Amway banner that he had hidden in his shorts and waived it around in the end zone. Would you feel the same way?

[DaveTheAffable]

...And he believed in it so strongly that he unfurled an Amway banner that he had hidden in his shorts and waived it around in the end zone. Would you feel the same way?

 

That.. would be inappropriate! LOL. Wouldn't want a religious or faith banner unfurled either. I personally think Tebow could tone it down a lot, and still have his "voice".

 

Here's some back story... I recently was at restaurant where a husband, wife, and three kids (5-10 yrs old) were waiting for dinner to be served. I was at the table next to them. When the food arrived, the father said pretty quietly, "Hey guys...let's give thanks" bowed his head and said, "Lord, My family and I are thankful for our blessings. Dinner too. Amen." Then they all set about eating. A table or two away, a man said to his wife, "Why should we have to put up with that crap? They're disturbing MY dinner." Of course, he then went back to his "GD this, and MF that, and the guys at work are full of #(*$.." conversation.

 

It just seems as though the expressions of just about anything, including Amway in public are broadly exceptable. But expressions of faith are taboo.

 

In closing, one of the kids looked at his daddy quizically. I heard what the father said next, the objector did not. He said to his son, "No worries son. Remember... even a pig grunts appreciation when you slop him". I've heard that before, and thought it cute at least.

[Dave McReynolds]

[texasaggie97]

People would rather lift up a Whitney Houston and not a Tebow because a Whitney make the average person feel better about themselves. A guy like Tebow makes people fear there could be a higher power that rules our lives. What if we cannot do whatever we want to and we will have to answer for our wrong doings?

 

Our human nature unfortunately wants people to fail sometimes and we hate to see someone who has it all together. I never understood why people get upset when people choose not to drink at a party or not have sex before marriage. People like to make fun of these people, Why? Why can you be a dope head and a thug and you are cool but you life a good clean life and you are a nerd or a drag.

 

Lets build up role models who choose to live above reproach. Lowering a flag for Whitney Houston is a disgrace to the young men and women who die for this country in Honor not a singer who abused drugs and check out on life. I am sorry for the depression and pain she suffered but she is not a person to Honor and lift up for living a successful life. Money does not make you great but the way you die and the legacy you leave do.

 

My .02 I am not say I am right but that is what my gut feels

 

Just my opinion

[beemerman2k]

I think that when you have a viewership of millions, you'll get the full spectrum of reactions. Some will complain, some will be offended, some will cheer, some will support, and still some won't care one bit. You can pick any one of these segments and make an issue of it, or you can let life play out as it always does. Here today, gone tomorrow.

[RT66Rider]

It is thought by some, that a lifestyle that is steeped in drugs and alcohol is NOT a good thing.

video by Pat Condell makes a pretty convincing argument that for some, faith IS their drug, and it is as toxic and ruinous as any illegal substance.

 

For the faithful among us, it will likely not sit well, and I apologize for any discomfort, but I found it to be profoundly interesting.

[DaveTheAffable]

It is thought by some, that a lifestyle that is steeped in drugs and alcohol is NOT a good thing.

video by Pat Condell makes a pretty convincing argument that for some, faith IS their drug, and it is as toxic and ruinous as any illegal substance.

 

For the faithful among us, it will likely not sit well, and I apologize for any discomfort, but I found it to be profoundly interesting.

 

Well, it's what I would expect from a pure atheist. And, he said early in the video, "I don't care about other peoples feelings."

 

He has an entire career built around "Godless Comedy". He has a niche... a "schtick", and he's making bank!

 

Ok.

[upflying]

We live in a society where immorality is coveted and tolerated as a virtue. TV, music, videos, video games, internet, sports, pop-culture, movies all perpetuate the attitude.

Displays of morality are therefore seen as abhorrent.

 

[Bob Palin]

We live in a society where immorality is coveted and tolerated as a virtue. TV, music, videos, internet, pop-culture, movies all perpetuate the attitude.

Displays of morality are therefore seen as abhorrent.

Although I don't care, what Tebow does is not a display of morality.

[moshe_levy]

Well, it's what I would expect from a pure atheist. And, he said early in the video, "I don't care about other peoples feelings." He has an entire career built around "Godless Comedy". He has a niche... a "schtick", and he's making bank!

 

David-

 

To this point, I'd simply ask if you have you any doubts that plenty of videos - PLENTY - can be found of "pure religious" who aim venom at others who aren't part of their flock? Aim that venom regardless of peoples' feelings, knowing full well the consequences of doing so as has been proven historically time and again? And that this, in and of itself, is the very definition of niche, of "schtick," - and also can be quite lucrative?

 

I'm not commenting here specifically of WH or Tebow - merely pointing out that the argument you used against an atheist comedian can so easily apply just as strongly to famous preachers - throughout time. You know their names as well as the rest of us.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

PLENTY - can be found of "pure religious" who aim venom at others

 

 

 

Funny...I have about 300 FB friends with all kinds of beliefs and not one of the Christians has ever posted anything remotely like what you describe. The Atheist on the other hand......

 

 

...it ain't even debatable.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Whip, your FB friends may not be a representative sample of what I describe. Our viewpoints color what we see and what we don't see. Perhaps the an atheist sees nothing but bad in religion wherever he looks, while a faithful person sees nothing but good. Obviously there is both good, and bad.

 

My argument was merely to debate "the argument" David used. To me a good argument cannot be used against the person who hypothetizes it in the first place. Despite your FB friends, Larry, trust me, there is plenty of venom coming from both sides on this subject. Some of my FB friends specialize in posting it! I ought to introduce them to you, and you introduce your friends to me. We'll both get more "worldly!"

 

-MKL

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

There are many people who are icons. Some are successful in their careers. Some are successful quietly. Others are flamboyant.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

It is thought by some, that a lifestyle that is steeped in drugs and alcohol is NOT a good thing.

 

It is thought by some that a lifestyle committed to a "faith" or a "higher moral standard" CAN be a good thing.

 

While alive, most gave Whitney Houston a pass on her drug use. "After all, she's such a beautiful person and singer". And now in her death, ANGRY that any one should say that her drug useage was sad, or a matter of choice.

 

In contrast, when you have someone like (by example only) Tim Tebow who chooses to portray his faith, he is publicly villafied and scorned to his face... while still alive. No pass given. Where is the, "Hey, if that's his thing, I wish him success as a football player".

 

I know that not all people who pronounce "faith" are perfect, and indeed there have been, and will be, hippocrits.

 

But which do we long for? Do we personally long to be a sucessful singer drug addict? Or...would we wish for Whitney to be a good singer, and be strong in overcoming her addiction?

 

Would we wish to be a successful football player who has a faith? Would we wish that Tim Tebow be a good ball player and NOT fail in his faith?

 

----------

 

Friday night... I have a cold... and... was just thinkin'

 

 

Whitney Huston didn't put her issues in my face. Tim Tebow does.

 

An Icon can do whatever it is he or she wishes, just don't try to tell me that it isn't their natural talent that got them there.

[Whip]

Whitney Huston didn't put her issues in my face. Tim Tebow does.

 

Maybe not in life, but every time I turn on the TV today I felt like I was at church.

 

 

 

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Ever notice how Whip and Moshe_Levy always show up together? Point and counterpoint. Somehow, some way, I think they were separated at birth

[DaveTheAffable]

Well... I took a chance making the connection with "faith". Soooo... since I'm the OP, let me give another close to home example.

 

I choose to ride my bike fairly close to the posted limits. 5 over is pretty much my limit. That's where I'm comfortable. I have NEVER criticized another rider for driving faster, just like I don't criticize my friends who choose to have more than two drinks. But I have recieved plenty of criticism for self imposed speed limits. I offer to drive clean-up. I offer to "See you guys at the next stop". But oh no... I'm the "odd" or "stupid" one for setting those limits.

 

When I asked a couple of guys one day, "What happened to ride your own ride?" the answers were "Ohh..that has to do with handling speeds and your skills, not posted limits. We can't believe you try to obey the posted limits. You're a good rider. You could go MUCH faster than the posted limits."

 

You're right that many people of "faith" are much too self righteous. And venomous. I endeavor to not be one of them.

 

We all know how much we hate it when people paint all bikers with the same brush

or doctors

or lawyers

or school teachers

or law enforcement

... ad nauseum.

 

I probably should have more self confidence, and peace of mind, about my own decisions whether of faith, alcohol, or speed limits...

 

...and realize that the comments are not really sourced in/at me, but at those hippocritical or venomous folks who have gone before me.

 

As friends, you have my permission to hold my feet to the fire as I try to stand fast in my beliefs, but remain...

 

Affable

[DaveTheAffable]

Whitney Huston didn't put her issues in my face. Tim Tebow does.

 

An Icon can do whatever it is he or she wishes, just don't try to tell me that it isn't their natural talent that got them there.

 

Yes... I see that. It can feel as though the person is saying, "My talent comes from god, I guess you got short changed".

 

I heard it well said once, "It's a short journey from being filled with gratitude, to being filled with attitude".

[Whip]

 

 

 

[DaveTheAffable]

Well, it's what I would expect from a pure atheist. And, he said early in the video, "I don't care about other peoples feelings." He has an entire career built around "Godless Comedy". He has a niche... a "schtick", and he's making bank!

 

David-

 

To this point, I'd simply ask if you have you any doubts that plenty of videos - PLENTY - can be found of "pure religious" who aim venom at others who aren't part of their flock? Aim that venom regardless of peoples' feelings, knowing full well the consequences of doing so as has been proven historically time and again? And that this, in and of itself, is the very definition of niche, of "schtick," - and also can be quite lucrative?

 

I'm not commenting here specifically of WH or Tebow - merely pointing out that the argument you used against an atheist comedian can so easily apply just as strongly to famous preachers - throughout time. You know their names as well as the rest of us.

 

-MKL

 

Agreed. As I have eluded to in my post a few moments ago, maybe much of the criticism is well deserved.

 

[DaveTheAffable]

 

 

 

Well done!

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Whip, that was hysterical - laugh of the day, for sure, thanks!

 

Dave, I think we're on the same page if opposite sides of the coin. Let me take this a little further....

 

On FB I've seen some of those "motivational style" posters - you know the ones I mean, with a picture and a caption designed to convey some point. After Whitney died, the posters going around showed troops serving on the front line and the caption "Whitney Who?" The point to take is obvious, but stupid all the same.

 

Look, let's face something. Celebrities are not heroes, generally speaking. A real hero - "Nobody's Hero" if you know the Rush song (which is the point I'm trying to make) - may not be well known and may pay an ultimate price for himself and for others. We all know that.

 

But let's focus on our real lives a moment. Entertainers play a HUGE role in our lives, whether or not we admit it. My first dance with a girl in 7th grade - what was playing? When I didn't want to get out of bed for weeks during a bad time - what morning show DJ's jokes got me laughing again? What songs got me out of a funk or made me feel something unique, or think deeper about something? Which drummer(s) motivated me to try to play myself? For those of us who truly love music, or who play music, it is a very big deal, and our lives' highest and lowest points (and all in between) are in fact defined by it. Those songs and artists remind us of those times, good and bad.

 

So when a Whitney dies, a Michael Jackson, or some other titan - it affects people. You gain nothing by questioning it. Let it be. You're not going to change how the mourners feel even one millimeter, and even to suggest it you will turn those mourners off in a way you can't even imagine.

 

Probably a great deal of my musical heros from Miles Davis to Jimmy Page and everyone in between was a drug addict at some point. I could care less than zero. I'm not trying to emulate their personal lives, and as Boney said, they didn't throw it in my face as the thing to do (to your Tebow example).

 

They did drugs - fine. The music they created speaks for itself. The talent also speaks for itself. And if people feel they lost something when their favorite artist dies, let them mourn. Nobody will accomplish a damn thing going to someone who feels loss and trying to politicize the issue by saying "Well, why don't you feel this way about XYZ?" It's the wrong time to ask the wrong question.

 

People are upset with Whitney because what she did to herself was a shame - such talent wasted! People are upset with Tebow because of politics and what they see as an agenda that should be private instead being rammed down their throat too much. It's not an apples to apples comparison to make because the Whitney thing is not politics in any sense. It's just a shame.

 

-MKL

[Nice n Easy Rider]

I have no problem with someone who chooses to practice their faith in public as long as they don't try to insert their practices into my life or the lives of others. I'm a firm believer in "live and let live" and feel like the world would be a much better place if we could all practice that philosophy.

[Rougarou]

PLENTY - can be found of "pure religious" who aim venom at others

 

 

 

Funny...I have about 300 FB friends with all kinds of beliefs and not one of the Christians has ever posted anything remotely like what you describe. The Atheist on the other hand......

 

 

...it ain't even debatable.

 

 

Have you ever had an Atheist knock on your door to try to sell you Atheism? Hmmmm, probably not.

[lkchris]

Although I don't care, what Tebow does is not a display of morality.

 

Guess you missed his charity work.

[Whip]

 

 

Have you ever had an Atheist knock on your door to try to sell you Atheism? Hmmmm, probably not.

 

 

I have never had anyone try to sell me any beliefs of any kind at my door or anywhere else. Matter of fact in my entire life no one has ever asked me what my beliefs are.

 

That includes some of my closest friends who save souls for a living.

 

BTW...They have never tried to church me up either.

 

 

But I have had Atheist friends compare religion to the male organ.

 

 

I have Atheist friends that constantly say religious leaders and their flock are stupid and mock them every day.

 

 

I can't find a single example in my email or on my FB page where a religious person has done anything like that to Atheist or anyone of a different belief.

 

 

YMMV

 

 

[Rougarou]

You must live in an exclusive neighborhood where no one knocks on your doors. You must never go out in public and have strangers walk up to you to hand you a watchtower booklet. You must never go into department stores and have strangers walk up to you asking you about Jesus or if you have been saved.....in other words, you must not get out much.

 

You Atheist friends are no different than your opposing political view friends. The opposing person will always knock down what they oppose. And if you haven't seen the religious spouting negativity, than you just need to open your eyes a bit wider.

[DaveTheAffable]

You must live in an exclusive neighborhood where no one knocks on your doors. You must never go out in public and have strangers walk up to you to hand you a watchtower booklet. You must never go into department stores and have strangers walk up to you asking you about Jesus or if you have been saved.....in other words, you must not get out much.

 

You Atheist friends are no different than your opposing political view friends. The opposing person will always knock down what they oppose. And if you haven't seen the religious spouting negativity, than you just need to open your eyes a bit wider.

 

And... the other problem is, there is a HUGE difference in what is labled as "religion".

 

Wiccans are considered a "religion"

Satan Worshippers are considered a "religion"

Mother Earth worshipers are considered a "religion"

 

...and they are not even remotely close to what might be called Christian, Judaism, or Islam. So... "all" religion is bad.

 

And there are "modern" faiths that claim to be "christian", and yet... they aren't.

 

No doubt, plenty of bad things have been done in the name of "religion".

 

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

Every month I get the knock on my door. When we moved to our current location my wife was asked which church she belonged to frequently by patients she treated. It seemed to be a big deal. The guy that reads the water meter or checks the septic system every month always tried to engage me in scripture to prove or disprove a social issue. I assumed that he who could recite scripture was trying to raise his station in life above that which he compared an assumption of mine. I could care less. My mantra is if you need religion to get you through your day by all means embrace it. Just don't expect me to embrace it. If Tebow feels strongly more power to him. If he falters he will fall hard on his crusading sword. Whitney faltered and didn't have very far to fall.

 

Peace on earth or earth in pieces.

[DaveTheAffable]

Every month I get the knock on my door. When we moved to our current location my wife was asked which church she belonged to frequently by patients she treated. It seemed to be a big deal.

 

I confess... I asked a Seattle area doctor that question once, because there were bibles in his waiting room. He said, "I'm simply a Christian. I prefer not to say where I attend. Go where you're fed the food you like." I later learned that he goes on trips and provides free medical services in impoverished places. I never did learn what "church" he belonged to.

[Bob Palin]

Although I don't care, what Tebow does is not a display of morality.

 

Guess you missed his charity work.

 

It should be obvious that I mean his on-field displays! I know nothing else about him nor do I care to.

[Whip]

Every month I get the knock on my door. When we moved to our current location my wife was asked which church she belonged to frequently by patients she treated. It seemed to be a big deal. The guy that reads the water meter or checks the septic system every month always tried to engage me in scripture to prove or disprove a social issue. I assumed that he who could recite scripture was trying to raise his station in life above that which he compared an assumption of mine. I could care less. My mantra is if you need religion to get you through your day by all means embrace it. Just don't expect me to embrace it. If Tebow feels strongly more power to him. If he falters he will fall hard on his crusading sword. Whitney faltered and didn't have very far to fall.

 

Peace on earth or earth in pieces.

 

That would bother me.

 

I work in a tourist area. I see thousands of folks every day. No one has ever come up to me and said anything about my religion. We have had Nazis, Communist, Tea Party, Occupiers, and Presidents on Alamo Plaza over the years, but never an organized church.

 

 

But then again I was just told I need to open my eyes so....

 

 

Whatever

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

That would bother me.

 

I work in a tourist area. I see thousands of folks every day. No one has ever come up to me and said anything about my religion. We have had Nazis, Communist, Tea Party, Occupiers, and Presidents on Alamo Plaza over the years, but never an organized church.

 

 

But then again I was just told I need to open my eyes so....

 

 

Whatever

 

 

 

 

I've notified the appropriate parties in several religious organizations...

 

(I've never been approached by Mormons in Torrey but the Jehovas have been twice, nice people, we had a pleasant chat and I told them I wasn't interested in their religion or any other.)

[DiggerJim]

You must live in an exclusive neighborhood where no one knocks on your doors. You must never go out in public and have strangers walk up to you to hand you a watchtower booklet. You must never go into department stores and have strangers walk up to you asking you about Jesus or if you have been saved.....in other words, you must not get out much.

Hmmmm....CT doesn't seem so bad after all (even with this whole winter thing) if that's what happens to folks where you live. I too haven't had the people at my door (I'm on a main road, no gated community or anything). I've friends who are Mormons but they haven't shown up proselytizing either. I've seen a Watchtower booklet in gas stations when I travel but haven't seen whoever it is that puts them out. And I would be shocked if strangers walked up to me while shopping asking anything (except maybe the time or directions) - it's just not done here. I thought I got out a lot (I do 100K air miles and half that with cars/bikes/boats) but maybe that's not so much after all. Or maybe there's some pheromone that repels those folks - kind of like the one that attracts cats to people who dislike them or mosquitoes to the bitten ones

 

Bottom line is that YMMV vis a vis religious folks who come visiting. Now if I could get those little people who have the cookies to come around I wouldn't need to get out much I love the chocolate mint ones!

[Whip]

You must live in an exclusive neighborhood where no one knocks on your doors. You must never go out in public and have strangers walk up to you to hand you a watchtower booklet. You must never go into department stores and have strangers walk up to you asking you about Jesus or if you have been saved.....in other words, you must not get out much.

Hmmmm....CT doesn't seem so bad after all (even with this whole winter thing) if that's what happens to folks where you live. I too haven't had the people at my door (I'm on a main road, no gated community or anything). I've friends who are Mormons but they haven't shown up proselytizing either. I've seen a Watchtower booklet in gas stations when I travel but haven't seen whoever it is that puts them out. And I would be shocked if strangers walked up to me while shopping asking anything (except maybe the time or directions) - it's just not done here. I thought I got out a lot (I do 100K air miles and half that with cars/bikes/boats) but maybe that's not so much after all. Or maybe there's some pheromone that repels those folks - kind of like the one that attracts cats to people who dislike them or mosquitoes to the bitten ones

 

Bottom line is that YMMV vis a vis religious folks who come visiting. Now if I could get those little people who have the cookies to come around I wouldn't need to get out much I love the chocolate mint ones!

 

 

You need to open your eyes more

 

[Bob Palin]

One should note that it's not possible to approach Whip's house, it's a private gated commune of attack dogs.

[Whip]

One should note that it's not possible to approach Whip's house, it's a private gated commune of attack dogs.

 

I have only lived there for ten years.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

And... the other problem is, there is a HUGE difference in what is labled as "religion".

 

Wiccans are considered a "religion"

Satan Worshippers are considered a "religion"

Mother Earth worshipers are considered a "religion"

 

...and they are not even remotely close to what might be called Christian, Judaism, or Islam. So... "all" religion is bad.

 

And there are "modern" faiths that claim to be "christian", and yet... they aren't.

 

No doubt, plenty of bad things have been done in the name of "religion".

 

Dave,

 

To be quite clear, one can find plenty of outright criminal behavior done in the name of mainstream religion, and sanctioned by them. The latter is my main point. You don't need some fringe cult to bring up the older history like Crusades (convert, or die), or the foul treatment and imprisonment of scienctific geniuses by the Church itself (Galileo, Copernicus, et. al. for daring to suggest the Heliocentric Theory), the Salem Witch Trials, or in more modern times the genocide and ethnic cleanings (Bosnia, Darfur, et. al.), and we could go on and on. Really, we could! The list never ends. People gleefully killing other people in the name of religion, more often than not historically, at least, with the full blessings of their Pope or priests or mullahs or whatever.

 

I am not an atheist. I do not think the choice is atheist or religious. There are many shades in between and the word "secular" hasn't been brought up here, but surely it has its place.

 

My main point is when you ask why some people have distaste for religious organizations, my answer is simply "history." History is pretty indicative of what theocracies amount to. To be sure there is plenty of good works done in the name of religion, but plenty of blood spilled needlessly as well - and that's not by some fringe groups. That's with the full knowledge and support of the religious organizations in charge at the times of the events. After "history" we have "politics," which is what happens when those with certain views try to legislate said views onto others who don't necessarily hold those views. Again, leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those of us who value our personal freedom and civil rights.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

PS

 

My name is "Moshe Levy." Says so right on the letters they bring to my door most Sundays when they ring the bell and hand me a pamphlet about how I need to be "saved." (From what, I have no idea, but they're trying hard to convince me I need it!). You would think with a name like "Moshe" they would just skip my house, but alas....

 

I also live in a state where, in order not to offend certain sensibilites in here, I shall say only that there have been some ballot initiatives here re whether certain people should be allowed to marry or not. My phone rings twice per day, at least - usually during dinner - with some church or another soliciting their view on why some people are an "abomination." Really? In 2012?

 

But I digress... You asked why people have a distaste? Stuff like this.

 

-MKL

[KDeline]

 

I see thousands of folks every day. No one has ever come up to me and said anything about my religion.

 

 

 

 

I find that incredibly lucky. I was delivering products to a house last week. As I am driving away, a guy waving his arms, FLAGS me down. I thought he was broke down, until......He says do I have a radio? Can I turn it to this channel? Before I even get to it I said "Its a holy roller station right?" He then begins talking Jesus. I am slowly pulling away and he is following, jabbering all the way. I must have a sign on my forhead because I get these knuckleheads a few times a month.

[Paul Mihalka]

I personally think that any extremism or fanaticism, be it religious or political, is a result of indoctrination and shows a mind that partially gave up it's independent thinking capability. Nothing is pure black or white. Everything is some shade of gray. Some like it lighter, some darker.

[MT Wallet]

I've lived in my current location for 5 years and have not gotten any religious zealots at my door. I do get H.S kids selling eveything under the sun for fund raising. The previous 50 years only netted two visits from Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. You guys must not be "living right" (meaning: lucky) I guess that tattoo saying "I'm the antichrist" on my forehead is working. . Religious people don't bother me much..or for that matter anyone else.

All kidding aside, I am a little uncomfortable with public displays of religion by people as well as excessive affection by others. There's a time and a place for everything. That said, if Tebow wants to do it, it is no different that an end zone display after a touchdown. So what?

[texasaggie97]

Religion is a hard subject to discuss in a place like this because it is hard to really hard to communicate truth without passion getting in the way. I spent 3 years in seminary to learn things that the average person just has no clue. There are factual truths in the Bible that no scholar can disprove nor explain. There has to be a creator some where. No one just came to be. No ones past relative was single cell organism. The question is who is right and we all need to know that anything man made is screwed up.

 

Working in a hospital doing ministry I noticed that most people who had no faith were really worried about death and wanted to really rethink the no God thing. The people who had a genuine faith were more at peace with life ending. I guess for some of us here we will wait until the end days and see if we all still feel the same until then all I can say is I love and believe in Jesus.

I am not ashamed to say it and it my constitutional right to do so and if it offends people then they live in the wrong country. If they want to say who they believe then do so because people of all religions died so you can. So say your peace and if you do not agree them just read try to learn from different people and if you desire to write a response just know that we are trying to solve a conversation that has been fought for hundreds of years.

 

I enjoy all of your posts and can tell there are some very passionate people on this site but we just have to agree to disagree. Some day we will know the truth!!!

[moshe_levy]

Personally, I think we've turned to talking about religion because of the ban on politics!

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

I personally think that any extremism or fanaticism, be it religious or political, is a result of indoctrination and shows a mind that partially gave up it's independent thinking capability. Nothing is pure black or white. Everything is some shade of gray. Some like it lighter, some darker.

 

Partially? I'd say this very phenomenon is where referring to people as "sheep" ultimately derives from. No, I'd say they have completely abandoned independent and critical thinking capability. That's why they see things as being so black and white!

[DaveTheAffable]

Nothing is pure black or white. Everything is some shade of gray. Some like it lighter, some darker.

Of course. Gotta have wiggle room. Nothing is "right" or "wrong", just "shades of gray".

 

When a thief breaks into your home and steals what you earned, it's not wrong. He needed it. He has a different opinion than yours on the matter of property rights and ownership. His shade of what defines a thief is lighter. Your is darker.

 

[DaveTheAffable]

Personally, I think we've turned to talking about religion because of the ban on politics!

 

-MKL

I strongly disagree!

 

I think it's winter, and no one has the guts to start an oil thread.

 

[taters]

It always amazes me how some people will hear or read a quote and then subscribe to it totally. Without giving it any thought. Accepting it because it just sounds right. I'll give you all two examples. There are many more but two will make the point

 

1. More people have died because of religion than any other institution.

What a crock of s#***. More people have died from the adherents of atheism

E. g stalin= about 100,000,000 murdered

Mao =. About 30,000,000 murdered

Hitler= about 40,000,000. Murdered

Pol pot. About. 3,000,000 murdered

 

 

2. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison

What a crock of s*##*. Would you really like to see 100 Ted bundys go free than me to spend life in prison? Don't think so.

 

We gotta think these sayings through and not just accept them

[plext]

Totting up known figures (the crusades are hard to get a handle on) from various places around the web, the best I can come up with is a figure of roughly 784,000,000 deaths attributable to conflict based upon religion.

 

Do you actually have one hundred Ted Bundys to hand? Or are they all straw men?

 

These kinds of discussions > debates > arguments never end well as all sides tend to see themselves as correct and not one point of view is ever changed as a result.

 

People believe what they will believe, it's rare that anything changes that.

[moshe_levy]

It always amazes me how some people will hear or read a quote and then subscribe to it totally. Without giving it any thought. Accepting it because it just sounds right. I'll give you all two examples. There are many more but two will make the point

 

1. More people have died because of religion than any other institution.

What a crock of s#***. More people have died from the adherents of atheism

E. g stalin= about 100,000,000 murdered

Mao =. About 30,000,000 murdered

Hitler= about 40,000,000. Murdered

Pol pot. About. 3,000,000 murdered

 

 

2. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison

What a crock of s*##*. Would you really like to see 100 Ted bundys go free than me to spend life in prison? Don't think so.

 

We gotta think these sayings through and not just accept them

 

OK, so think it through then. Paul answered your first already: "... personally think that any extremism or fanaticism, be it religious or political, is a result of indoctrination and shows a mind that partially gave up it's independent thinking capability." Substitute "the state" or "dear leader" or "Fuhrer" for "God" and you have statism. No different from religion in that either way, independent men and their thoughts are asked to be sacrificed for some other entity.

 

For the second saying, that's an ideal our justice system supposedly aspires to. It is a noble one, and I doubt you will be able to come up with a rational or factual argument as to why it is not a noble goal. Nobody says it's reality - it's a goal to show the extent to which the innocent are supposedly considered innocent until proven guilty.

 

-MKL