2000 rt-p still no go.

[catmandoo]

well got a fuel pump and replaced it along with the filter and the hoses in the tank as they were mush.got it together tonight.put gas in turned key and have pump.cranks but won't start.check spark and good there.for some dumb reason i pulled an inj line off and got a good pressurized shot of fuel all over me and bike,so pump is working at least i have fuel to inj's.so now i'm temporarily stumped.fuses all look good but said to hell with it for tonight.haven't taken the test lite to fuses to see if in fact they are good.any idea's out there.

[Tobias]

I'm assuming you are using new fuel, and that the tank didn't have any water in it.

 

What do the plugs look like?

 

In your older posts you mentioned that the bike hasn't run for a long time. Even though you have fuel the injectors may be gunked up from sitting.

 

I've read about problems with mice getting into strange places on bikes that have sat. What do the air filter and exhaust look like?

[catmandoo]

i have not pulled the plugs. for some reason bmw decided to make the hole for the plugs about 1/2 mm smaller then my smallest plug socket so i need to find my tool kit i guess.hope its still in the bag.otherwise i have no idea where it's at.as for mice none there,air filter good etc. as for the gas it is not brand new but does have a good smell to it yet and my snowblower runs on it so it should at least try.as for the tank it was drained dry.gonna try to pull an inj tonite and see if it sprays,if not i know the problem lies there.are the inj's fused in some way.can't find my owners manual to see what fuses are what.

[dirtrider]

Morning catmandoo

 

Smell your muffler outlet after cranking. If it smells like raw gasoline you probably have spark plug issues (like fouled). If no raw gas smell out the muffler then look into injector plugging, or no 12v power TO the injectors, or the fueling computer not pulsing the injectors.

 

You really need to remove & check those spark plugs.

 

You can also try squirting a bit of starting fluid into the little fitting on the bottom of your throttle bodies (where the hoses connect). If it fires momentarily on starting fluid then you know you have a fueling issue at the injectors or no injector pulsing.

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

Morning catmandoo

 

Smell your muffler outlet after cranking. If it smells like raw gasoline you probably have spark plug issues (like fouled). If no raw gas smell out the muffler then look into injector plugging, or no 12v power TO the injectors, or the fueling computer not pulsing the injectors..........

 

You can hear if an injector is being pulsed by listening against it with a long screwdriver.

[catmandoo]

ok took plugs out and looked good,turned over and had good spark,pulled an inj and shot a little gas in and it popped so now i'm narrowed down to the inj's not working.i checked and do have juice to them,and mo spray when key just on.is there anyway to take them apart and clean them or is it a replace item.

[dirtrider]

Evening catmandoo

 

Just because the injectors have power to them doesn't mean even good ones will spray with the key on.

 

The injectors have 12v power to one terminal & the other injector terminal is monetarily grounded by the fueling computer to make it momentarily spray.

 

Next move is to hook a test light or 12v LED across the injector connecter (between terminals) then crank the engine over. You need to see that light or LED flash as the engine is cranking over (if an LED make sure the polarity is correct).

 

If no flash while cranking then for some reason your fueling computer isn't pulsing the injectors. Could be the HES not providing the injection signal or maybe something else.

 

If the light flashes then look for bad injectors (they don't come apart) or maybe the internal pintle is just stuck due to gum or corrosion. Or possibly the injector intake screen is plugged.

Maybe try working some penetrating oil into the injector inlet while applying then removing 12v power to the injector in a pulsing manner.

 

[catmandoo]

i'll give that a try thanks.it has been setting for a good yr and a half so it could just be stuck inj's.

[dirtrider]

 

Evening catmandoo

 

A quick test might be--- If you can power one terminal of the injector then quickly ground & unground the other injector terminal you should be able to hear a good injector clack as the pintle moves. If you don't hear anything the pintle is probably stuck (then try the penetrating oil trick)

 

[catmandoo]

well just out back messin with it again and with inj removed but hooked up to fuel line i cycled the fuel pump then put 12v to the inj and it shoots out a nice stream of gas every time i ground it.so thems workin ok.but i can't test the harness for a pulse when cranking as all i have is a multimeter and they are useless for such a thing.my testlight bulb is toast so i will have to get one tomorrow and try that.thanks for the tips.does the HES control both spark and fuel inj's??

[dirtrider]

----Does the HES control both spark and fuel inj's??

 

Morning catmandoo

 

 

Yes, the fueling computer uses one of the HES inputs for spark & one for injecting fuel.

 

The fueling computer then bases the amount of fuel it sprays (pulse width, or amount of time it turns the injectors on) using the TPS (throttle position) input signal vs engine RPM. Then uses , oil temp input, ambient air temp input, barometric pressure input, & system voltage to trim the base fuel mapping for current starting/operating conditions.

 

 

 

 

[catmandoo]

heres another crazy question.i have seen mention of the r.i.d.could this be a problem?when i turn key all i get is clock and N for neutral.if my memory serves me correctly when key is turned on both fuel and oil temp gauges max out then drop to proper levels.i have probably a gallon and a half of gas in it now and gas gauge has no bars.i figured it should at least show 1 bar.hate to put too much in if i'm gonna be pulling the tank again.

[dirtrider]

Morning catmandoo

 

Is your side stand up? On the civilian 1100 RT it shouldn't start with the side stand down & that also effects the RID but as far as I know the RT=P will start & run with the side stand down as long as it is in neutral.

 

[philbytx]

This is weird enuf to be the HES

[catmandoo]

well with it setting on the sidestand this is how i have been trying to start it.and spraying fuel in the intakes does make it pop so that is evidently not the issue.got me a testlight so heading out to check the inj harness for the pulse.be back shortly.

[catmandoo]

well finally got out to test the harness.my hot tub heater quit working and with below 0 temps for tonight that took priority.just popped the heater circuit breaker so good to go.got out and tested harness and seemed to work ok.so thought must be HES so took the crashbar bracket loose and ex pipe to get the front cover off,man the rt-p is a pain to get to that front cover.got out the wheel wrench to loosen the bolt on the crank and then went to put it in gear.just grabbed the shifter by hand and pulled up and it had a nice clunk but the rear wheel still turned free.thought what the heck is up here.maybe it was saying it was in neutral but not really.so messed around with it and got it in neutral,got green lite on dash and 0 on RID.hit the starter and it cranked a few times and popped.so i gave it some throttle and it started.albeit on one cyl but started.so now my issue is the right cyl is not firing.plugs are pretty black so i think i'm gonna get some tomorrow and see if that helps.also while running it backfired a few times but i figure with the unburnt gas and maybe an occasional spark it was normal given the circumstances.so as for now it is running.hopefully i can find plugs here in town and get the 1100 back instead of a 550.

[dirtrider]

Morning catmandoo

 

 

 

Definitely, if the side stand is down it MUST be in neutral (or clutch held in) for it to start.

 

 

On only one side firing--------.

 

First check that the throttle cable is FULL SEATED in it's furrel at the TBI (usual reason a cylinder isn't firing).

 

Next check the spark plug (swap sides if in doubt).

 

Then MAKE SURE you didn't tug on the spark plug wire & get it to short out inside the sheathing (I believe you are working on an RT-P correct?) Those RT-P plug wires short out easily up near the ignition coil. If regular spark plug wires then make sure the wires are seated into the coil towers.

 

 

[catmandoo]

well i pulled the wires and put some test plugs in and grounded to the cyl head and got good spark so i'm hoping the plugs are just fouled.think i'm gonna dump the gas and get some new stuff too just in case.but of course my one horse town doesn't have plugs so guess i need to head to the big city this week sometime.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon catmandoo

 

You can try a tooth brush & some carb cleaner on the plugs then heat to just short of glowing with a propane torch.

 

Or, Autolite 3923 will work just fine in your bike (even small towns usually have those)

 

[catmandoo]

i'll have to check that number tomorrow.thanks

[catmandoo]

well got new plugs and gapped at .32 new 91 octane gas(sucked the old stuff out and pulled inj hoses off inj's and cycled pump til gurgling.)then started.albeit kinda hard had to crank alittle and when it did fire it only wanted to hit on one then about 5 seconds later it started to randomly hit on both then both,i just figured that cyl was flooded from trying to start and not firing.but after setting in my 50 degree garage and running for a couple minutes at say a fast idle 12-1500 i could not get it to idle down,when it got under 1000 it would die.well started again and rev'ed a few times and got it to the point of idling.but the fumes were burning my eyes so shut down opened door and vented the place and pulled the plugs to check them and they were getting a good black tint to em almost like running rich,yet by the burning of my eyes i'd say lean.have a notion to try some more new plugs.or do i just need to take it out and exercise it's stiff old bones.otherwise its up and "running on both for now".but i'm kinda thinking the tank might have to come off again as the gauge does not register.i have about 2-3 gallons in it now and when i put it in i shot the gas to the right side of the tank so i think i have probably 2 gals in that side.

[catmandoo]

well tried a couple other new plugs and gap'ed at .35 and it actually seemed to want to idle better once somewhat warmed up.when cold if you try to give it some throttle it acts like it is missing on one cyl.pulled the throttle cables up off the collets and both sides missed.but one other strange thing when it was slowing down to idle i could hear a chatter so to speak on the right side throttle body.seems the throttle plate is kinda vibrating in the bore.if i grab the shaft it quits.wish i could get it out on the road and put some miles on it/

[biometrics]

If you have vibration in the throttle plates that you can stop by grabbing the shaft, you probably need to rebuild your throttle bodies... See Dan Cata for the rebuild kits... it should make a world of difference.

 

http://boxer-upgrades.webs.com/apps/webstore/

 

...and I don't think it makes any difference which side you shoot the gas to... it is one big tank...

[catmandoo]

update:went out tonight and adjusted valves.went to start and had to crank for too long,plus had a few backfires.finally started and missed on one cyl for a second or so.but actually sounded better,but still my senses say too rich.think i'm gonna need to sync the tb's.i can pull the throttle cables out of there collars and it will miss on both sides.so it is hitting on both but still seems too rich.i'm almost thinking i may still have an HES issue.

[dirtrider]

Morning catmandoo

 

Definitely do a TB sync as a starting point.

 

It sure sounds like you need to get that bike out & ride it a bit.

 

Before you do-- make sure your engine oil isn't loaded with raw fuel. With all the misfiring & no starting you could have washed a lot of raw fuel past the piston rings & into the crankcase.

That can make them run real rich & even start hard as well as could cause a crankcase explosion.

 

Also make sure your fuel return hose quick disconnect is tightly plugged together. If it isn't together tightly that will stop return fuel flow & raise fuel pressure.

 

You really need to try & ride it or at least get a couple of large fans blowing air on the engine then run it for an hour or so.

 

Once you run it a while & get it settled down a bit might not hurt to do a compression check.

 

Probably also not a bad idea to do another valve check after riding it a while (especially if you moved an adjustment on your just-done check). If a couple of valves or seats have/had some crud on them during the current adjustment that will be off once the valves clean their seats & margins with a good run in.

 

[catmandoo]

oh i would love to get out and put some miles down but with snow and now rain my raod is a soupy mess.we get a good week of over 40 temps and it might be good enough to ride down.i have about a mile of gravel to reach the highway.also i have oil and a filter that is just waiting to go in.

[catmandoo]

weeelll finally got my manometer,adjusted the valves again as i had one really noisy one,pull the bbs's and cleaned them.cranked on it and it kinda popped a little once then started but ran on one cyl for a couple seconds then both.let it idle for a little bit on high idle.hooked up the mano and at low idle they were pretty even but any amount of throttle and the left just died down to nothing.adjusted the throttle cable up and helped a little then a little more and bingo.they are both almost dead on pretty much across the lower rpm's up ro 3-3500 or so and it actually sounds kinda sweet.so nowww i get to pull the tank again because my gas gauge decided to quit.thinking i might have bent the arm as it's not to user freindly in there.but it is up and sounding good can't wait to ride.thanks again for all the help and pointers.great bunch of minds here.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon catmandoo

 

 

Sounding better with each post you add here.

 

On the fuel gauge, remember that float is ONLY for the low fuel warning not the fuel gauge.

 

The fuel gauge sender is the long tube with a float inside it. Is it plugged in properly on the back of the fuel pump pass through plate?

 

[catmandoo]

hmm i'll check that.as the first time i put it together i no more then got everything hooked up and thought "hey i didn't plug in the harness off that long tube"so pull the tank again and hook it up.maybe its not totally snapped together.i'll go check that out now.

[catmandoo]

well had the tank sending unit/pump off 3 times and if i run an ohm meter across the terminals on the end of the quick connect harness i get it to drop down to low 2's but the instant i move the unit to put it back in the tank i lose it.my guess is the float arm for the low fuel sensor is the issue to some extent.at this point i'm at a lose

[catmandoo]

well tank off again but one thing that i did notice is i had no low fuel light.this time when i put it back together i did have the light and as i filled the tank it went out,but still no bars on the gas gauge.

[dirtrider]

 

 

Morning catmandoo

 

One thing you might check is the tank pump ground. With the shared ground any resistance in the tank ground can cause the pump to back drive the gauge circuit.

 

In fact it isn't a bad idea to run the tank sender grounding to it's own separate ground.

 

Another thing to check out is the possibility of the float sticking in the sender tube. Either due to a big dent in the tube from a past tank venting issue causing the tank to suck in & crush the tube or some varnish/curd inside the sender tube from all that sitting with bad gas in it.

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

well tank off again but one thing that i did notice is i had no low fuel light.this time when I put it back together i did have the light and as i filled the tank it went out,but still no bars on the gas gauge.

 

I have a Word file which I wrote up after fixing my faulty Fuel and Oil Temp gauges on my 1996 R1100RT. It details how to test your RID Gauges and Sensors. If you can use this Word file PM me with your email address and I will send it to you.

 

I don't know how to post the file on the forum thread.

 

 

[catmandoo]

well DR that shared ground did cause me some concern.i had some crazy weird thoughts that maybe i wired the pump backwards and now my sender ground was a hot lead so the gauge was actually working backwards.but then the pump should work backwards too.so that ain't it.but still.as for the tube it was fine when i took it out.i may have to pull the whole tank apart again and pull that tube and try it out of the tank and see if i can get it to work.GG if if things don't work out on this i'll PM ya for that file.thanks again guys.

[Galactic Greyhound]

You can disconnect the fuel tank connector below the RH rear of the tank and measure the resistance of the Fuel Tube Sender which will tell you if it is faulty or not and maybe save pulling the fuel plate.

 

The Fuel Tube Sender is connected via the fuel tank plate to the fuel tank connector socket pin 1 (earth, two brown wires) and pin 3 (yellow wire). The resistance depends on how much fuel is in the tank: 0 ohms = full tank, 100 ohms = empty tank.

 

If you earth (ground) the fuel tank connector plug (which is connected back to the main harness) pin 4 (white/blue wire) the Low level Fuel Light should come on within 30 seconds when the ignition is switched on. First remove Fuel Pump Fuse #6 for safety as pin 2 is live +12v for the Fuel Pump!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

Aha! - File Manager on the 'Full Reply' - let's see what happens:

 

Here is the Fuel Plate Wiring Diagram which may help:

 

 

[catmandoo]

well i figured out the yellow is fuel sender wire,and that there are 2 brown grounds in the same slot on the harness.and i showed a resistance of.785 which should indicate roughly 1/4 tank,but it does not show on the rid.beings full is 0 ohms.to test the rid can i just jump pins 1 and 3 on the bike end of the harness??if it shows full i have sender issue,if not a rid issue.

[catmandoo]

o.k. now its gettin weird.went out and pulled the harness apart and jumped pin 1 and 3 on the bike end of the harness and after about 10 seconds i got one bar on the r.i.d..which would just about translate to the .785 ohms when i test the harness on the tank.but when i pull the jumper the r.i.d. goes back to blank.and hooking the harness back together r.i.d. still shows nothing.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Yes - if you short the plug pins 1 & 3 on the harness side the RID Fuel Gauge should read 10 bars within 30 seconds of switching on the ignition (there is an electronic damper circuit).

 

RID Fuel Gauge: When you short the connector plug pins 1 (brown wire) & 3 (yellow/brown wire)the RID Fuel Gauge should be reading around 10 bars within 30 seconds. If you are only seeing 1 bar then this is not correct.

 

The first thing is to test that the frame earth connected to the Connector plug pin 1 is good or not. Do this by connecting a known good earth (bat 12v-) to plug pin 3 (yellow/brown wire) to bypass the frame earth and see what the Fuel gauge reads. If 10 bars show then the frame earth is bad. If not, remove the black dash panel to get at the RID connector on the upper RH side of the nose fairing. Disconnect the connector and spray contacts with contact cleaner then grease with Vaseline when dry and reassemble.

 

Fuel Sender Tube: If you are reading 0.785 ohms across the socket pins 1 & 3 to the Fuel Sender Tube then this would indicate to the RID that there is almost a FULL tank (Full Tank = 0 ohms). A 1/4 tank would be 75 ohms. Double-check this Fuel Sender Tube reading making sure you are on the Ohms scale (x1) and not the KOhms (x1000) scale and if using an analogue meter that it is properly zeroed by shorting the test leads before measuring.

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning catmandoo

 

 

Definitely check your ground path (brown wire) integrity to a resistance free ground connection.

 

You might also check it under load by connecting the plug to the tank then a using a voltmeter to monitor the brown wire voltage drop between battery (-) post & pin 1 brown wire). With the pump running you want to see almost no voltage drop between pin 1 & battery(-) post. If you see much voltage between pin 1 & battery negative post with all hooked up & the pump running you have a lot of resistance in the brown wire or it's connection to ground.

 

Also-- Is your side stand still down? If so try raising the side stand as the RID has a power input through the side stand switch.

 

[catmandoo]

the bike is on the centerstand and "kickstand" is up.i'll check that ground.another thing i guess i didn't do is connect that 1&3 pins for 30 seconds.it was maybe 10-15 before it read a bar so i figured it was done.maybe i'll go try that first.

[catmandoo]

o.k. finally got time to tear into it again.pulled the tank,pulled the fuel sender.running an ohm meter across the two wires i get .75 or so of a reading.if i mess with it and turn it upside down still the same.but occasionally it will drop to the .13 or so range.if when it's here i jump it to the bike harness my r.i.d.does work and does start to climb but if i tilt the gauge any to where the float is off full it goes back up into the 7's and gauge drops to nothing.has anyone taken one of these senders apart to see just how they operate.

[Galactic Greyhound]

o.k. finally got time to tear into it again.pulled the tank,pulled the fuel sender.running an ohm meter across the two wires i get .75 or so of a reading.if i mess with it and turn it upside down still the same.but occasionally it will drop to the .13 or so range.if when it's here i jump it to the bike harness my r.i.d.does work and does start to climb but if i tilt the gauge any to where the float is off full it goes back up into the 7's and gauge drops to nothing.has anyone taken one of these senders apart to see just how they operate.

 

William Moss has done some work on this and you should find your answer in his document here:

 

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/GSCALE.DOC See para 3.4 'Cleaning the Sender'.

 

I don't understand your resistance figures of 0.75 ohms and 0.13 ohms but what is happening makes sense if these figures are actually 75 ohms (empty tank) and 13 ohms (nearly full tank).

 

I am wondering if you actually have enough fuel in the tank for the Sender Tube to work properly - try adding another gallon and see if things work OK.

[catmandoo]

sorry bout that.was using wrong scale on my ohm meter.thanks for the document i'll check that out.well just checked that doc and it really doesn't give me a definitive answer as to why mine goes from low to high once the float moves off full.as i said with the sender upside down i do get bars climbing,i let them go til there was 7 or 8.but if i say lay it over and shake just enough to get the float to move down a little my reading goes basically back to 0 or empty.it's like it loses contact right below full.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Catmando

 

I sent you a PM on the info you are seeking.

[catmandoo]

ah but i hope i do not need it. was on call today and didn't have to work so to speak.so thought what the heck.so i took the sender apart.took a pic of it apart if anybody would like to see i can try to post it.well testing it opened up it worked fine but trying to test thru the wires at the connector didn't soo kinda pulled a little on a wire and it came off.tried the other one and same thing.so i had to pull the connector apart strip back the wires and solder them back on.took it over to the bike before i put the wires back in the connector as it was a pain to get apart.and it works.move float up rid goes up move float down rid goes down.so put it back together and tried again and still working.so now i just have to put it back in the tank and everything else and get some gas in it and see if it comes up.i am confident it will. thanks again for all the insight.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Great news!

 

It would be interesting to see the pic of the dis-assembled Sender Tube and know how you opened it up.

[catmandoo]

well you have to bend the little tabs that hold the spring on the bottom.they are tougher then they look.then there is a little brass nut on the very bottom.that is locked in place by the washer underneath it.it also is brass.you need to bend the edges down flat so you can get the nut.i would say it's probably a 4 mm or so,i ended up using a needlenose.and it was on pretty tight.but once loose it came right off.then its just a matter of cutting the 2 big zip ties that hold the wires against it.and pull the tube off very carefully as the float runs up and down on 2 little wires thinner then a hair.the float has an aluminum base on it that the wires contact as it goes up less resistance,down more resistance kinda cool actually,just don't break one of those wires.thats all there really is to it.i did see a resistor of somekind way up in the top coming off one of the wores.wonder if this is the time delay.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Thanks catmandoo - I've taken the liberty of adding your procedure to my ongoing 'R1100RT RID Testing' Word document with a credit reference to you and your post on this thread. Hope that is OK? I will send you a copy if you wish.

 

I have never seen any documentation on Sender Tube dis-assembly so your procedure and picture (replied your PM with email address) is very useful information to have.

[catmandoo]

wish i would have taken pics as i took it apart,but it is pretty straight forward to get it apart,but i must stress you have to pull that tube off carefully and straight off as those wires are super thin and have some good tension on em.kinda like a thin guitar string.