POLITICS. HOW DO YOU FEEL?

[EffBee]

Please read this ALL.

 

We used to allow politics. It got bloody. That's not what we're about. So we cut its legs out and left it as open discussion about things that might have a political aspect, but no mentioning of parties, ideologies, titles, and no insults/pejoratives/personal attacks. We had some magnificent discussions. But almost all of them ended up shut down sooner or later.

 

Navigating that took craftiness and writing skill. Some were better at it than others. And some were like a bull in a china shop. We tried to moderate it, but while it wasn't bloody, it got nasty at times. Those less gifted in the verbal arts complained. So we made our Admin lives simpler. No politics of any kind. And there was peace in the valley. But the valley was also more devoid of spirit than ever before.

 

Basically, the Admin team has been kicking around the idea of easing up a bit. But we're also interested in hearing from the membership. So here is a simple poll with serious ramifications. Read it carefully and answer carefully.

 

No action is promised, based on this poll. We're just taking the temperature of the water.

 

 

[Huzband]

In my opinion, you need a somewhat broader spectrum than " I risk being banned on a subjective ideal" to " no politics at all".

 

Come on, politics flies under the radar here all the time. You know it, but you don't have to admit to it.

 

It's your site, do what you want. If I want to vent with regard to politics, I always have CS&M on ADVrider. Let's not turn this into that.

[SteveHebert]

I agree with Danny here. Not much of a choice it seems.

[MT Wallet]

I agree with Danny here. Not much of a choice it seems.

 

I enjoy a spirited and passionate debate. I'd like to avoid the insults and personal attacks with INTELLIGENT discussions. It isn't personal it's just about the ideas. I'd like to have the discussions anyway. Now, as a hothead, I know it won't be easy BUT it's easier to take a breath and a step back from one's words in a written format before you hit the send button. If you can strike that balance........but banned forever? Not a choice=that's an intimidation(or pick a more appropriate word) Oops, now I'm banned.

[texasaggie97]

I think if we cannot have conversations like responsible adults then we should not be allowed to hold a membership on this board. We are all different and we have seen life through different lenses and we should welcome difference of opinion. Why can we not all get along and just be glad we live in a country where thinking different allowed us to escape the rule of England. We are the United States because we though different and we did not want to be ruled by a king who though everyone should think one way or die. We learn from one another and we should welcome thought from everyone and not let our need to win the conversation over rule our relationships on this site. Learning to fight in a positive way is a skill we al need to learn.

This is just my .02 take it or leave it.

[ltljohn]

I never get in to the debates. I do however enjoy reading the opposing views and arguments. If it gets treated like a debate with civility and facts to back a point I think it could be a great thing.

[marcopolo]

I voted "no politics" because I don't see how we wouldn't end up exactly where we were before. There are so many other online places these days where one can engage in knock 'em down drag 'em out political discussions that we don't need it here.

[Dave McReynolds]

When political discussions got shut down, it was more often that they got redundant and stale than that they were vindictive. I'm sure the mods just eventually got tired of reading the SOS. Just create a "hook" gremlin like the old vaudeville hook they used to pull boring actors off the stage, and use it to shut down discussions that try to beat a dead horse too much.

[Huzband]

For once I agree with Dave. For example, we've had several threads that treaded the political line shut down because they became redundant in the responses. Not that they were combative, just beating the same old dead horse.

 

Now, you Mods are much smarter than the lowly 99 percenters of us. That's why you're there, & we're here. So here's my take.

 

If you feel the need to create a "political section", have at it. But if you do so, you have to let it roll as a free for all. If you try to modulate it, it won't work. That will just come across as censorship, no matter what you do. And that's why I said earlier that I have CS&M on ADVrider to vent said ideologies. Any less than that is just futility on your part.

[Kathy R]

I'd like to go back to the rules where we could not discuss politics, but could discuss issues that have a political aspect.

 

Just clarifying the original point

[SageRider]

I voted no politics, but if the majority wish it, great!

 

One suggestion:

Move politics into a separate forum so those that don't wish to get involved don't have to at minimum wade through them in Other Topics...

Then turn 'em loose!

 

Might think about a separate religious forum too!

 

 

[Huzband]

I'd like to go back to the rules where we could not discuss politics, but could discuss issues that have a political aspect.

 

Just clarifying the original point

 

But isn't that where we've run into trouble all along?

[Kathy R]

Some folks did. Some folks didn't.

 

 

[Huzband]

I voted no politics, but if the majority wish it, great!

 

One suggestion:

Move politics into a separate forum so those that don't wish to get involved don't have to at minimum wade through them in Other Topics...

Then turn 'em loose!

 

Might think about a separate religious forum too!

 

 

Like I said, that's what CS&M is for on ADVrider. If we start that here, we are no longer MRN.

 

I admit I haven't been the Mr. Clean among us, but I really don't want to see this site fall to that level.

[steve.foote]

FB, we live in very partisan times and are missing the discussion of what will end up being a very significant chapter in human history. There is no separating politics from politics. That's like being partially pregnant. Either you talk about it, or you don't.

 

Best Wishes,

[Alfred02]

Politics is part of life.

You can't just ignore it.

Separate it and set one simple rule: "No personal attacks".

You guys get a lot hotter under the collar then you will find at this end, but it's important that people show an interest of what their government is up to and take an active interest in it.

 

[RonStewart]

I'd like the choice of entering a null ballot so I could see the results.

[DavidEBSmith]

The good old days are always wonderful in retrospect. Allowing politics, you'll get exactly what you had before: 95% cut-and-paste throwing talking points at each other with no real discussion happening. Arguments going on endlessly because everybody wants the last word. Vicious personal attacks that hang there unrebutted because the thread gets closed leaving the attacker with the last laugh.

 

The peculiarly refreshing MRNness of this DB exists because strife has been consciously avoided. If I wanted to have pointless and unsatisfying arguments about politics, I can go to Facebook or countless other discussion boards. It's the relatively politics-free zone here that's made it the unique community it is. I have no earthly idea why you would feel compelled to meddle and destroy that.

[EffBee]

Not replying to Eebie, he was just at the bottom.

 

There's been some internal talk about some of the great discussions that we had, before someone turned them political and they had to be shut down. And there were some. SOME. The question is to see if many people miss that. By eliminating politics entirely, have we denied ourselves something important (which we all know we can get elsewhere, but not among these fellow members), or have we created something valued (greater harmony) that we do not wish to put at risk.

 

The poll is nothing more than an attempt to take the temperature of the water. Even if it was 99% one way or the other, it's not significant beyond that.

[RichEdwards]

Some of the best friends I have made here are mindless captives of the wrong side of the political spectrum. I prefer to maintain my affection for them by keeping politics out of our relationship. So I voted for "NO POLITICS."

[tallman]

The good old days are always wonderful in retrospect. Allowing politics, you'll get exactly what you had before: 95% cut-and-paste throwing talking points at each other with no real discussion happening. Arguments going on endlessly because everybody wants the last word. Vicious personal attacks that hang there unrebutted because the thread gets closed leaving the attacker with the last laugh.

 

The peculiarly refreshing MRNness of this DB exists because strife has been consciously avoided. If I wanted to have pointless and unsatisfying arguments about politics, I can go to Facebook or countless other discussion boards. It's the relatively politics-free zone here that's made it the unique community it is. I have no earthly idea why you would feel compelled to meddle and destroy that.

 

What he say...

face it, you can count on one hand the number of times someone changed their opinion as a result of\a political discussion here.

No matter how much information was available, no matter how valid the data, how up to date, how perfectly done the study was, many if not all of those who had an opinion (not a factual POV, but an opinion) stuck to their POV regardless.

And then there are the trolls...

no thanks.

[moshe_levy]

I'm probably one of the more common offenders with regard to engaging in political discussion, and I voted to keep politics. Let me tell you why:

 

First, I've found the membership here very varied in their opinions, and very intelligent in their responses for the most part. So selfishly, this means that I am generally going to learn something discussing these issues with this board. This desire to learn makes engaging in the discussions sometimes irresistible.

 

Second, we are generally speaking enthusiasts of motorized vehicles, and that topic is fraught with politics. Renewable energy, oil, crash regulations, import / export subjects, and so on, and so forth. It is quite natural for these issues to come up, and come up often as the industry changes to respond to external pressures (both private sector and public sector). Some welcome the changes and some don't - we should be able to discuss why, like adults.

 

I, too, have seen ADVrider and FB discussions and generally find them petty and lacking in any substance. As opposed to here, where we're for the most part above making it personal. Am I guilty of violating that? Yes, I am. So are others. Heated discussions can get "extra" heated at times - but I haven't found them to be nasty here. Questing another person's opinions, maybe, but not much further than that.

 

And finally, these threads are not forced on anyone. I routinely bypass threads with titles or topics that do not interest me. I would imagine everybody else does the same. And even in the old days (well, for me that means about 2006-2007 when I first joined here), I do not remember a political thread for the sake of a political thread - I've seen threads about energy or hybrid cars or some other such topic migrate to politics naturally, not a post started with th express purpose of stirring the pot. Maybe I missed those, maybe not. But i think we've got a really great group of really bright people here who have opinions to share and cannot do so without treading sometimes into these arenas, and they should be allowed to do so within some firm and easily understood guidelines (no personal attacks, etc.).

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on it.

 

-MKL

 

[Ken H.]

From where I sit, I think there is too much concern amongst the mods that BMWST Other Topics is going to turn into another Advrider Yo-Mama kind of a thing. But I think that’s short selling the vast majority of people at BMWST though. From what I’ve seen, I think, overall, the participants in an Other Topics conversation do a pretty good job of jumping back at someone that gets out of line. Or just ignoring him/her. While occasionally someone sets or gets baited, or brushes up against making a personal attack, I think that’s the exception rather than the norm. By-and-large it’s a ‘gentlemen’s group’ (and of course “gentlewoman”) who are quite capable of discussing controversial, even political topics in a courteous manner on their own, without moderators deleting this or that that they think crosses some gray line.

 

More important than that though, what bothers me is that the moderating overall stifles frank conversations. Everyone is always trying to tip-toe so as not to break the rules; which then tempers what they do or don’t say. Now if they’re about to call someone a “_ucking idiot” then that tempering is, of course, a good thing. However, overall I think it leads more to a poster having to hold back voicing their legitimate opinions on the subject at hand. (And it IS legitimate for someone to have an opinion, whether or not someone else agrees or disagrees with the specifics.)

 

My suggestion - quit moderating on subject, and instead moderate on approach, tone, intent. Not what someone says, but how they say it. E.g., “I think that liberal/conservative Mr. _______’s position on _______ is wrong and here’s why…” is fair game. “I think you are an idiot because you’re a name of party” is not.

 

The way it is being done now at BMWST just breeds resentment that he/she was censored whereas him/her was not. Regardless of which way is which.

 

I say let the conversation(s) take there natural course. If someone gets vulgar or personal of course it makes sense to step in. But just because of the subject of the post; IMHO – no.

 

 

[Ken H.]

Regarding ‘take the conversation to FB or somewhere else on the net.’ First, if anyone has ever attempted to engage in an in-depth conversation on FB, it’s a lousy platform for it. Its format is meant for the quick come and go posts of the instant feedback world of today. Trying to filter through all the noise, or even back to a prior conversation there is a total PIA. It’s just a different platform than a DB.

 

But more importantly, going to most any of the other popular political bent sites, and I frequent a few, has the problem of the ‘preaching to the choir” syndrome. It’s easy to find a site with a liberal bent, and post there. With other liberals. Or of course a conservative leaning site with the same problem. But other than self-reassurance, i.e. – “See, I’m right”, where’s the value in that?

 

OTOH this site is somewhat unique in that it bring together people who share a non-political common interest – motorcycles. We just happen to also have a variety of (variety being the key word) political interest and views, which uniquely can lead to very rich conversations. (Not just on politics BTW, on many other subjects as we have seen many times.)

 

It’s the fact that this is not a politics site that paradoxically makes it a great politics site.

 

[Dan5620]

Debating politics is a waste of time....no one wins and it does nothing but cause eventual hard feelings, be it work, family and/or web sites. Better place without it.

[TyTass]

I agree with many of the thoughts presented on both sides of this question.

 

Yes, it could get ugly, as some have presented. However, I agree with Ken here ... most people speak up when someone's out of line, and if people don't, mods can for sure. I further agree with Ken that content isn't the issue, the issue is approach, tone, and intent.

 

So, if the mods are up to it, I say we allow gentlemanly discussions.

 

But all that said, I've kind of pulled out of the quasi-political debates this past year, so I too would like to see a Topic Category for politically-related subjects so that it's easier to filter.

[ESokoloff]

I didn't vote.

To do so would have been a participation of politics which is not allowed on this site.

[texasaggie97]

I disagree that people can not have a constructive conversation and come away with a different view or learn something from someone who has experienced a different side of life. I think politics is one of the more tough conversation to have but what is the next thing we can not talk about. I believe the First Amendment to the United States Constitution codifies the freedom of speech as a constitutional right.

 

The Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Although the text of the Amendment prohibits only the United States Congress from enacting laws that abridge the freedom of speech, the Supreme Court used the incorporation doctrine in Gitlow v. New York (1925) to also prohibit state legislatures from enacting such laws.

 

This law was enforced so that people could have open conversation and learn from others. I believe people in this country have died for these rights so we should not take censorship lightly. If someone on this site cannot have a open conversation without getting offended or upset they need to stop reading and just walk away. People here should not attack others in a cutting disrespectful way. We all also must understand that some people lack the personal awareness of how they speak to others.

 

My last comment on this subject I will just sit back and see what others have to say.

It is Friday and I am going to have a great day!!

 

 

[EffBee]

Thanks, all.

 

As I stated twice, this wasn't a poll about whether we should go back to allowing discussions that have a political aspect, but rather to take the measure of the room to see where peoples' heads were at.

 

I think there's general agreement among our Admin Team that things were "livelier" back then. We also know that there's a danger in romanticizing that liveliness and overlooking the work that it was to moderate those threads. Just the intensity in some of the responses here has helped resurrect that awareness.

 

Also, "lively" is a relative term. This place needs to be a destination for informative exchange of motorcycle issues, primarily BMW related, and the sharing of riding experiences. If we never reach six-figure membership numbers, or if people stay members only for a while and then move on to greater excitement amid other sites' unrestricted anonymity, visiting here only sporadically, then it's not that we haven't met their expectations, they've not met ours. And that's fine. We're a sport touring site, focused on BMW's. Anything offered above and beyond that (how to fix your home a/c unit or what's the best cordless drill) is gravy. The question we asked ourselves was, how much gravy?

 

Politics exists everywhere. As Moshe pointed out, there are several political aspects to simply owning a motorcycle. This wasn't a poll to elicit change, so none will be forthcoming. We'll just have to be stuck with less "lively" topics as oil and tires. Oh, and whether Casey Stoner is better than Valentino Rossi. Now there's a barnburner for ya.