The end of an era, RIP Joe Pa

[ltljohn]

Joe Paterno passes at 85. LINKY

[Glenn Reed]

I grew up rooting for Penn State, as I had three older cousins who attended the school. I always had high regard for Joe Pa and the school overall. Obviously, the recent revelations didn't fit that history, but I don't know anyone who is perfect.

 

RIP Joe Pa.

[RockBottom]

My #1 daughter is class of '10. She'd never watched a football game before she went and now I think the signed Paterno ball I gave her is one of her favorite possession.

[beemerman2k]

To me, JoePa is, and always will be, a giant among men.

 

Terrible that he dropped the ball like he did in that instance, but I think we need to allow for human shortcomings when evaluating the man.

 

To me, JoePa is, and always will be, a giant among men.

[Ohio48]

Never can or will be replaced, a one of a kind human!!!

[RichEdwards]

Shakespeare could have written this tragedy. One tragic flaw brings a great man down and ultimately leads to his death.

[Dan5620]

Shakespeare could have written this tragedy. One tragic flaw brings a great man down and ultimately leads to his death.

 

I'll get in trouble for this however....

 

With all due respect to a football coach, job loss does not cause lung cancer.....especially in 84 year old men.

 

Plus, I don't think he was "bought down",may be fired, which happens to many. More like a University between a rock and a hard place, like they still are....how does PSU celebrate a life, it fired for what they say was wrong?

 

 

It is sad, like you suggest, a Shakespeare play.

[Jaguar]

Penn State has already condemend him by firing him. Now, a couple months later, they have to find a way to immortalize him.

[Ken H.]

This is a hard one for me. On one hand I think had he lived he should have stood trial for what he allowed in the abuse cases. Despicable.

 

OTOH it’s probably fair to recognize him for his successes as a coach.

 

OTOOH I don’t see how the later can in any way overshadow the former.

 

And I think this obsession with football organizations, especially at the college level, as gods is totally out of control and has clouded judgments beyond the point of recognition.

 

[dba]

And I think this obsession with football organizations, especially at the college level, as gods is totally out of control and has clouded judgments beyond the point of recognition.

 

Certainly allows for some bad behavior it seems.

[philbytx]

Using the sports vernacular, how apropos!

Him "dropping the ball" is an understatement.......in the case of the abuse scandal, he either ignored his moral compass and/or simply threw it away.

 

No giant this.....

 

[Mike]

And I think this obsession with football organizations, especially at the college level, as gods is totally out of control and has clouded judgments beyond the point of recognition.

 

Ken, that's probably the most insightful analysis I've read.

 

This is a clear instance where the resultant corruption of values led to many moral compromises that had a profoundly negative effect on many children.

[beemerman2k]

And I think this obsession with football organizations, especially at the college level, as gods is totally out of control and has clouded judgments beyond the point of recognition.

 

Ken, that's probably the most insightful analysis I've read.

 

This is a clear instance where the resultant corruption of values led to many moral compromises that had a profoundly negative effect on many children.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with this characterization of the situation here. I have long been a die hard college football fan and Penn State is one of the great rivals to my University of Michigan. Like many, I loved and respected Joe Paterno. But here's the rub: nobody expected Joe to ever win another National Title. Period. Sure, Penn State had its years when it did well, but it also had long periods under Paterno where they simply sucked. Paterno's value was not the same as that of other head coaches. 99.9% of other coaches have Paterno's record and they'd be fired on the spot.

 

Joe Paterno was a powerful moral force at Penn State, and that was his ultimate value there.

 

The good will the school enjoyed under his leadership was unprecedented -- OK, I'll allow for one other case, that of Bobby Bowden at Florida State. As much as Paterno was respected, nobody on the planet expected Penn State to win the Big 10, let alone a National Title. In fact, has Paterno ever won the Big 10? I don't think so. In fact, ask Danny ("Huzband") how worried he was about his Alabama Crimson Tide travelling up to play at Penn State earlier this past season. OR, you can go back and read the College Football 2011 thread and see how "worried" he was (in a word, he wasn't worried at all!).

 

BUT, the number of people whose lives were trained, straightened out, guided, mentored, and groomed -- too numerous to name! I would hear stories of Paterno instructing his players to clean up the stadium after the game was over! He had his players perform various community services simply to teach them the importance of community service and of service to others. Great stuff! And kids did this because they were honored to play under this man's leadership.

 

Joe Paterno was the real deal, and this situation is the shocker that it is for this very reason.

 

Tell you what I think. I think Paterno grew up in a time and in a community when this kind of thing was treated with silence. As bad and as sad as that is, just like domestic violence or violence toward people of color or gays, this was also something that people at one time looked the other way. And I think that when this issue surfaced in Paterno's life once again, he behaved in the manner in which he was raised. Sure, he reported it, but then he acted as most other did in his day and age. Tolerated in that day (just like domestic violence and racism and homophobia and...), but repugnant in our day. That's what I think happened in this case.

[Fubar]

When I called my wife at work to tell her Joe had died, she cried. She never went to a game, never met the man, didn't attend the college. Her only connection was that her (recently deceased) grandparents lived 10 miles from P.S.U. all of their adult lives, 65+ years.

 

We as a nation need to stop revering sports figures and celebrities, et cetera as superior beings. Personally I'd rather revere Stephen Hawking or some other intellectual giant than some perky blond from Hollywood but that is just as bad. Applaud or vilify the contributions of the individual objectively but do not put them on a pedestal or cast them into a ditch because of subjective views of that individual.

 

As a coach, Joe was amongst the giants. Maybe not for the overall record or the number of "great" seasons or championships but certainly for longevity and the intangibles he gave to the game and the school. As a man, he had his strengths and weaknesses like everybody else.

 

His role in the abuse scandal at P.S.U., if any, will, I hope, come out factually and in a timely manner. His memory deserves it, his family needs it, the school needs it, the communities of central PA and football need it, the nation needs it and, most importantly, the victims need it.

 

As the justice system goes through its machinations, as the evidence comes to light, I fervently hope that this will finally be the last time it happens. But I know it won't be.

 

Regardless, goodbye and thank you, Joe, you will be missed.

[ragtoplvr]

Rule one, the football god is never wrong.

 

Rule 2, in case the football god is wrong, see rule 1

 

Long ago I deserved and received an "Aw Shit" award. It states that one "Aw Shit" cancels all brownie points.

 

I do not understand how the football god thing got started, but this is the root cause. Lots of young men sacrifice their bodies on the football alter so the chosen one can advance to the pro's. Many regret it later in life. In this case, some other men made a really terrible sacrifice for the foot ball god.

 

Unacceptable, and wipes out ALL the good.

 

Rod

[philbytx]

I always appreciate and respect your insight and thoughtfulness. However, what you said below is so wrong on so many levels.

 

 

quote Tell you what I think. I think Paterno grew up in a time and in a community when this kind of thing was treated with silence. As bad and as sad as that is, just like domestic violence or violence toward people of color or gays, this was also something that people at one time looked the other way. And I think that when this issue surfaced in Paterno's life once again, he behaved in the manner in which he was raised. Sure, he reported it, but then he acted as most other did in his day and age. Tolerated in that day (just like domestic violence and racism and homophobia and...), but repugnant in our day. That's what I think happened in this case.

unquote

 

So, what you say above is that a man of his intellect suffered from terminal myopia and thusly learned nothing in his lifetime.

 

IMHO, truly a reach to excuse this terrible moral failure on his part.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Albert]

I'm no fan of Penn State (Pitt alum) and I certainly don't condone anything that's been alleged in the Sandusky case. But it seems like we might want to wait, at least, until there's a trial before we start any effigy burning. Unless I'm mistaken everyone's reacting to hearsay at this point. Even the accused hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

[beemerman2k]

That's exactly what I'm saying, and there's nothing intellectual about it. All emotions so great they overwhelm logic. Happens y'know, certainly happens to me. It doesn't excuse anything, but it also paints a more complex picture than "Joe just wanted to win more games".

[moshe_levy]

Some of us are patient enough to wait for the facts before making any judgement calls. But at that point, we want to see a line in the sand - abuse of children is intolerable - period, end of sentence, no further shades of gray warranted.

 

I don't give a squirt about how great of a coach or a priest or a CEO or a teacher or whatever someone is. Once that line is crossed, that's it. And we should apply that to individuals and further, to organizations as well. So I, for one, as a person who knows less than nothing about sports, am just waiting for the facts.

 

If the line is crossed, there will be no excuses pouring forth from anyone with their priorities straight.

 

-MKL

[tallman]

Joe said that he wished he had done more.

He had the opportunity, but apparently not the motive to do so at the time, nor during the subsequent years (decades).

 

That says a lot, IMO.

[Ken H.]

I'm no fan of Penn State (Pitt alum) and I certainly don't condone anything that's been alleged in the Sandusky case. But it seems like we might want to wait, at least, until there's a trial before we start any effigy burning. Unless I'm mistaken everyone's reacting to hearsay at this point. Even the accused hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

Some of us are patient enough to wait for the facts before making any judgement calls. But at that point, we want to see a line in the sand - abuse of children is intolerable - period, end of sentence, no further shades of gray warranted.

 

I don't give a squirt about how great of a coach or a priest or a CEO or a teacher or whatever someone is. Once that line is crossed, that's it. And we should apply that to individuals and further, to organizations as well. So I, for one, as a person who knows less than nothing about sports, am just waiting for the facts.

 

If the line is crossed, there will be no excuses pouring forth from anyone with their priorities straight.

I agree with both of those statements. As I said, I wish he had lived to stand trial. After all, people can be found innocent. And we do have too much ‘trial by the media’ these days.

 

That being said, if he had been found guilty (or is posthumously) all celebrations, awards, eulogies and tears are hereby canceled. Participation, even if only by looking the other way, in sexual child abuse nullifies everything in my book. Going to hell (if I believed in such) is not done based on averaging. One strike and you’re out.

 

[tallman]

Ken,

He wasn't indicted.

Not sure but I think Penna. has odd laws wrt reporting child abuse.

Here, no brainer.

I'm required to report to superiors and authorities.

I am responsible.

No buck passing, no excuses.

 

So Joe wasn't going to be tried except in the court of public opinion.

Nothing, IMO, will ever change the verdict in that arena.

[beemerman2k]

Did Joe blow it? Absolutely, but that fact is not my point of contention. I am challenging the suggestion that the reason he was silent was to protect the football program. That does not add up to me.

 

Sandusky was no longer coaching.

 

Penn State is good, but not that good! Maybe the locals saw JoePa as a leading coach in college football, but few others did.

 

What did he have to lose by blowing the whistle? Unless he Sandusky held leverage over him--like JoePa is guilty of things he wouldn't want public--why wouldn't he go public?

 

Also, why would Paterno put such a heavy emphasis on personal character and conduct among his players? It was totally unnecessary for him to do so.

 

I don't buy that this was about protecting the football program. Joe blew it for reasons we may never know.

[tallman]

James, the facts tell a different tale.

When AD's and VP's knew and did nothing there can be one conclusion

drawn IMO.

The possibility that campus police and/or state police knew

and did nothing also speaks loudly.

Paterno stood to profit from a campus development, as did the university.

There were some financial irons in the fire that the downturn melted, but (from memory) a relatively small investment (including Paterno) was going to yield a huge windfall in short term and a long term annuity in perpetuity.

Big bucks for certain individuals, including Paterno.

There was more at stake than just football.

[beemerman2k]

OK, but let's examine all the facts

 

Even after his firing, JoePa and his wife still made a huge financial contribution to the University. That act is not consistent with a man willing to bend his morality and to risk everything for some sort of payday.

 

C'mon, bring on the arguments! I just want something consistent with what we KNOW about JoePa, that's all.

[Huzband]

What we know is he didn't act when he should have. Don't give me that lame excuse that he grew up in a different time, & didn't understand what was going on. He couldn't have been that removed from society.

 

Honestly, I was never a PS fan. Matter of fact, I have reason to dislike them with regard to the '82 season. But that's neither here nor there.

 

He clearly knew what happened, honored his contractual obligation, & forgot about it. This has already come out in testimony, & as I said, it's a sad end to what was an otherwise great career.

 

While he had such a positive impact on so many young men, his lack of action had a greater impact on so many others.

[beemerman2k]

What we know is he didn't act when he should have. Don't give me that lame excuse that he grew up in a different time, & didn't understand what was going on. He couldn't have been that removed from society.

 

Right. The idea behind what I am attempting to do is not to excuse the man, but to explain the man. What I am trying to do is to understand his actions. It's been charged almost unanimously that he remained silent to protect his winning record (I think I refuted that possibility given that Sandusky was no longer on staff) or that he wanted to protect his pay day (that doesn't makes sense either given his generosity to the University even after his firing). Therefore, I proposed the following potential scenarios:

 

- acted his age (the 'other era' theory)

- was being black mailed to remain silent (what Sandusky might have had on him we don't know yet)

- was reminded of his own past (this is a real WAG here!) when maybe he was confronted with this issue in his youth and therefore emotionally ran away (like I said, I'm trying to consider anything that explains his actions!).

 

He clearly knew what happened, honored his contractual obligation, & forgot about it.

 

Yes, that is clear, but WHY did he choose to "forget about it"?

[texasaggie97]

Now we know why he (JoePa) could never be fired till this came out. I believe the whole institution was involved in this molestation case. Sandusky was seen in the presidents box at the games after he was no longer coaching up to that last season of JoeaPa. The whole enchilada was involved in the cover up and they all deserve to go to jail or be placed in a big prison cell with bubba the man lover and let him have his way with them and no one say anything for years and see if they are sorry. I am sure the will be crying out for justice for themselves.

 

It is so sad to see someone who built their career around character and integrity have such a fail.

 

Just my .02 but when it comes to children we have a responsibility to protect them every single one of us. When we see something not right ask questions. There are 50,000 child sex slaves in America. Yes people are that sick and we need to keep our eyes open and ask questions. Forget all this Political Correctness and mind your own business get involved and change this country back to having a back bone.

 

Soap box over sorry for the rant.

[Dan5620]

I found it interesting, in Joe's statements, that he'd never heard of man on man rape. He was a Catholic, I assume he would have heard of the Church's sexual sandals throughout the years. Also understand he was very interested in Greek philosophy, the topic of homosexuality is a main stay in many Greek writings.

[beemerman2k]

Because this is so radically outside what we know about this man, I want to know why he reacted like he did. I would argue, however, that from the point of view of society's intolerance to child sex crimes, these are the "good old days". In decades past society was hush hush about these crimes, which is why people have the illusion that this kind of thing didn't happen back then. The Catholic Clergy didn't just wake up one morning in our modern high tech times and decided to molest some kids, this kind of thing was going on for quite some time. We just reached a point as a society to where we won't stand for it anymore, which is real progress indeed!

[tallman]

James,

As to "refuting" the winning record argument, nope.

The opposite actually.

Otherwise, why did they wait 'til #409 in the books?

No sale buddy.

 

Do some reading on the real estate venture I mentioned above before you dismiss that out of hand.

 

Sandusky on or off the staff isn't relevant.

He, Sandusky, continued to be an active participant on the campus, at the games, in and around the lockeer room, all the while involving young boys.

Joe wore thick glasses, so he was able to see, he just chose to be blind to some obvious things.

How different this would've all played out if only (sic) he had marched to the Prez's office and demanded justice be done immediately.

Remember, Sandusky was one of Joe's boys that Paterno molded.

Joe was an asst. coach while Jerry played.

No amouont of trying to explain what/why Paterno didn't do will change what he did do, which was not enough by any moral/ethical standard.

[Ken H.]

Ken,

He wasn't indicted.

Not sure but I think Penna. has odd laws wrt reporting child abuse.

Here, no brainer.

I'm required to report to superiors and authorities.

I am responsible.

No buck passing, no excuses.

 

So Joe wasn't going to be tried except in the court of public opinion.

Nothing, IMO, will ever change the verdict in that arena.

Well we never got that far. Would he eventually have been indicted (the word I really should have used instead of “tried”) I would guess yes, but we will never know.

[Ken H.]

Therefore, I proposed the following potential scenarios:

 

- acted his age (the 'other era' theory)

- was being black mailed to remain silent (what Sandusky might have had on him we don't know yet)

- was reminded of his own past (this is a real WAG here!) when maybe he was confronted with this issue in his youth and therefore emotionally ran away (like I said, I'm trying to consider anything that explains his actions!).

As long as we’re just speculating theories...

 

- was extremely good (with extremely bad results) at emotional compartmentalization. A valuable coping mechanism when applied appropriately, a dangerous mental defect when taken to too much of an extreme.

 

[beemerman2k]

James,

As to "refuting" the winning record argument, nope.

The opposite actually.

Otherwise, why did they wait 'til #409 in the books?

No sale buddy.

 

Wait?! Is that what happened? The school waited until win 409 and the came clean? OR did the mother of a child raise hell which blew the cover off this thing? Had she not acted, we may still be unaware of this situation. Nobody waited for anything as far as I am aware.

 

Sandusky on or off the staff isn't relevant.

He, Sandusky, continued to be an active participant on the campus, at the games, in and around the lockeer room, all the while involving young boys.

Joe wore thick glasses, so he was able to see, he just chose to be blind to some obvious things.

How different this would've all played out if only (sic) he had marched to the Prez's office and demanded justice be done immediately.

Remember, Sandusky was one of Joe's boys that Paterno molded.

Joe was an asst. coach while Jerry played.

 

It IS relavant if the argument is Joe protecting his winning record!

 

So, what r u saying, that Joe didn't act because of his loyalty to his pet student? If that's what your getting at, then thank you for putting forth a theory! That's all I'm looking for here. And maybe this is indeed consistent with his character? Maybe his loyalties are too strong and blind him to reality? OK, then maybe we now know why!

 

 

No amouont of trying to explain what/why Paterno didn't do will change what he did do, which was not enough by any moral/ethical standard.

 

Where in this thread did I suggest otherwise? I am looking for consistency -- pinning this on material gain is highly inconsistent with what I see in Paterno's behavior, so no, I don't buy that idea one bit. The university? Sure! JoePa? No.

 

IF someone you felt you know well was accused of a crime so far outside of what you could ever imagine, and then a motive was put forth that u felt was anything but consistent with that persons character and actions, wouldn't you be curios as to the real why behind the act?

 

If and when the truth comes out, and we learn why he failed to act, that won't exonerate or excuse his moral failings at all! Gee, he cared too much for Sandusky. Gee, he succumbed to blackmail. Gee, he ran from his past. Gee, he failed to update his thinking -- whatever! Does not excuse, but maybe it shows us that this man, for all his ugly flaws, really did try to live a life of service, really did try to call people higher, really did try...

 

If that was my kid I'd want to fry JoePa! Given that it wasn't, I want to take a moment to reflect on why, that's all.

 

If joe wanted money, he could have gotten it in much cleaner ways.

[beemerman2k]

Therefore, I proposed the following potential scenarios:

 

- acted his age (the 'other era' theory)

- was being black mailed to remain silent (what Sandusky might have had on him we don't know yet)

- was reminded of his own past (this is a real WAG here!) when maybe he was confronted with this issue in his youth and therefore emotionally ran away (like I said, I'm trying to consider anything that explains his actions!).

As long as we’re just speculating theories...

 

- was extremely good (with extremely bad results) at emotional compartmentalization. A valuable coping mechanism when applied appropriately, a dangerous mental defect when taken to too much of an extreme.

 

Yes Ken, that's all I'm trying to do here. That's it, nothing more.

 

OK, so u put forth a very realistic theory! Thanks

[Husker Red]

Therefore, I proposed the following potential scenarios:

 

- acted his age (the 'other era' theory)

- was being black mailed to remain silent (what Sandusky might have had on him we don't know yet)

- was reminded of his own past (this is a real WAG here!) when maybe he was confronted with this issue in his youth and therefore emotionally ran away (like I said, I'm trying to consider anything that explains his actions!).

As long as we’re just speculating theories...

 

- was extremely good (with extremely bad results) at emotional compartmentalization. A valuable coping mechanism when applied appropriately, a dangerous mental defect when taken to too much of an extreme.

Compartmentalization is what I suspect. Paterno didn't keep the accusation to himself, he reported it up the chain of command and assumed they took care of it. They didn't. When he continued to see Sandusky around campus Paterno probably just preferred to think that everything must have been a misunderstanding and it's been worked out. Paterno was probably willfully ignorant about what happened. After all, if Sandusky was responsible he'd be in jail right? Right? Like he's in jail now? Oh, wait... He's still walking the streets and living comfortably? Years from now, if/when he ever does get sentenced to jail and if/when he actually does have to report he'll probably just take the coward's way out and shoot himself then. I see lots of moral outrage that he wasn't stopped immediately back then - and I agree - but I'm even more outraged that EVERYONE knows now and he's still free.

 

I'm sad to see Paterno pass, particularly under this cloud. He was a great man in many ways, and a flawed man too but who isn't? Yes, he should have done more in this case, but he has done so much in so many other cases that I prefer to remember those now.

[tallman]

James,

Please review the timeline.

The whistle blowing, knowledge of the allegations, and win #409

all are related.

If you really believe that coincident w/win #409 suddenly allegations were made, or they had more merit than those going back over 15 years, well, I think otherwise.

The entire facade created by PSU with the tacit (or otherwise) acceptance of their figurehead JoPa plays out rather clearly if you look at the big picture and when the university did respond.

" According to the Journal, not only did Paterno lobby for the power to make disciplinary decisions about football players himself, but he threatened then-Penn State president Graham Spanier that he would stop fundraising for the school if he didn't fire Triponey. Paterno's position, the paper reports, was that he did not want Penn State's code of conduct to be applied to athletes. And he encouraged football players not to cooperate with PSU Judicial Affairs' disciplinary proceedings in the case of one major brawl because, in the words of the Journal, "they would have to testify against each other, making it hard to play football together"

Take a look at this information, including Wall Street Journal sources.

link

" "Coach Paterno would rather we NOT inform the public when a football player is found responsible for committing a serious violation of the law and/or our student code," she wrote, "despite any moral or legal obligation to do so."

 

Sounds like a certain incident reported to Paterno regarding Sandusky doesn't it?

Sounds exactly the response made by Paterno after being notified of Sandusky's actions, doesn't it?

 

 

James.

Years ago Paterno allowed a player, who had been expelled from the university to participate in a bowl game.

Paterno acknowledged the player was expelled but justified his actions by saying the second semester doesn't start until January X so I don't think he is out until the second semester starts.

Even if that had any merit as an argument, it flies in the face of ethical competition and NCAA rules.

Again, for better or worse, a facade.

[beemerman2k]

OK, Tim, where u r scoring points with me is that u r painting a picture of consistent behavior. These r matters I was unaware of, but OK, given this info, yes, a picture is starting to form.

 

Aside from the abuse of power to want to take command of the system of justice, if u do that, you now take on the responsibility of every crime committed under your jurisdiction. In other words, if Paterno did a power grab on the justice system, he is now responsible for what ever crimes r committed even if he is unaware of them.

 

OK, I was not aware if this side of him. Therefore, his inaction IS consistent with his character. And to the degree that these facts r credible (not questioning you, Tim, just the media), then this has to be taken as a part of who the man really was.

[tallman]

James,

And now for a timeline going back over 30 years.

link

 

There Are A Lot Of People Who Think I'm A Phony And Now They Think They Have The Proof'. - Joe Paterno

"Sports Illustrated March 17, 1980"

 

"I Don't Know Anything About It" - Joe Paterno

"ESPN Outside The Lines -2008

 

"2002 to 2008 - A Veritable Crime Wave. Where The Hell Was Dick Tracy?

According to Public Court Records during this period Forty-Six Penn State Footballers are charged with 163 different crimes. Twenty-seven players are convicted or plead guilty. That is almost four per year. The charges range from underage drinking to sexual assaults. There was enough criminal activity, police reports, depositions and court records here for "Law And Order - We Are Penn State"

link

 

 

"With The Benefit Of Hindsight , I Wish I Had Done More" - Joe Paterno

Penn State Press Conference - November 9, 2011

 

I bet he did....

[philbytx]

Ah! Lord Acton's dictum........

[beemerman2k]

OK, finally home. All day I've been posting to this thread via my iPhone, which sucks completely! So you know I feel passionate about a subject if I'm willing to deal with typing on this tiny device.

 

OK, so I have some learning to do about the real JoePa.

 

If this happened on just about any other campus, including the religious ones :smirk:, there would have been disappointment and deep sorrow, but not the kind of shock like I had in this case.