Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 130K on the clock 1100rt died in the driveway. Initial thought was fuel pump but further investigation proved no spark. I took the HES off and did the quick and dirty test light test and it passed. Harness and wires look ok and not brittle. So where do I look next ignition- Motronic- coil- ??? I totally suck with tracking electrical stuff. Point me in some direction PLEASE! Link to comment
snod Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If your RID isn't working, I would suspect sidestand switch. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Nope that works and the temp is pegged on it, so somewhere there is an issue of which I can not find. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Afternoon Tony UNUSUAL electrical issues are difficult enough to find with proper meters, wire diagrams, & testing equipment with the bike in hand, let alone over the internet. You need to start by verifying ALL the fuses that control the system or Motronic have power into & out of the fuse (basically with key ON test for power on BOTH sides of each fuse). With the RID temp pegged as well as no spark I would start with the Motronic fuse as that can effect NO spark as well a peg the temp gauge. Just looking at or exchanging fuses is not good enough. You need to VERIFY 12v power into & out of (on both sides of) the Motronic fuse. If the Motronic fuse has power into & out of it then move on to check for key-on power at fuel injectors then at the Motronic connector itself. Also access the ignition coil to see if that has a key-on 12v supply feeding it. Otherwise you will need a wire diagram & verify ALL key off 12v power feeds have 12volts, all key on system circuits have 12 volts, & all grounds are intact & without high resistance. You can't just guess around & hope to find much. You need to systematically verify ALL circuits & systems are powered & grounded correctly as well as all switch interlocks (like side stand & kill) tested & are working correctly. You also need to positively be able to trust that the HES is functioning properly. Do what you can with the above info & if nothing easily found we can talk you through EACH system function & test but that will take a lot of time & persistence on your part. It should also probably be done with one person by PM as too many cooks so to speak can really make it confusing for you. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ok what about this... Coil off testing with a multimeter (which I have no idea how to use) Set to meter to 200Ohm probe on the primary (-1 +15) I get 1.7 on the read out On secondary I get nothing. Again, I have no idea how to use this multi! Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 D.R. I just saw your post. I tend to poke around thus not good with electrical! Ok I will need to go back and reinstall stuff and start over. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ok what about this... Coil off testing with a multimeter (which I have no idea how to use) Set to meter to 200Ohm probe on the primary (-1 +15) I get 1.7 on the read out On secondary I get nothing. Again, I have no idea how to use this multi! Afternoon Tony On a cool coil (room temperature) your coil should show around .5 ohms on the primary and around 7.5K ohms on the secondary. The resistance you measure is dependent on the coil winding temperature and how clean your probe connections are and how accurate your ohmmeter is. Also keep your damp fingers off the probe metal on the Primary side test as your body resistance can skew the readings a bit. You will also need to set your meter to something at or over 10K ohms for the secondary test. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 D.R. I was doing the MM right here and there is no read on secondary at any setting... Did I mention I hate electrical issues... ugh. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Tony How are measuring the secondary side? Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Probe to pin-out and one into spark wire hole... all combinations of that. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Tony The secondary is isloated on the BMW 1150 (lost spark) so just put one probe in one plug wire tower & the other probe in the other plug wire tower. (meter on 10K or 20K scale) Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 20k tells 7.06, thank you for that, I didn't do that combo! Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Loose parts put back on bike. Key on- all fuse ports light up test lamp, so all are hot. With key on I get all lights, RID and ABS click. What I don't have is fuel pump activation or spark. I guess I can just sit on it in my garage and make motor sounds and pretend... Free beer and pizza to anyone who wants to tear into it! I have room for 5 motorhomes on my property so feel free to move in! Link to comment
Jim Moore Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'd throw a HES in there and see what happens. At 130K you're due anyway. I'd also do a very careful check of your fuses. I seem to remember if you pull a certain fuse you will get the full temp on theh RID, but I can't remember exactly which one. Hell, I'd probably replace them and see what happens. It's only a couple bucks for that. Link to comment
Galactic Greyhound Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'd throw a HES in there and see what happens. At 130K you're due anyway. I'd also do a very careful check of your fuses. I seem to remember if you pull a certain fuse you will get the full temp on theh RID, but I can't remember exactly which one. Hell, I'd probably replace them and see what happens. It's only a couple bucks for that. From notes kept on my recent RID repair: "However, it was noted after re-assembly of bike that if Fuse No. 5 (Motronic) was removed and the Ignition switched on, the Oil Temp Gauge showed 10 bars." I don't know what else causes the Temp to peg at 10 bars but the No. 5 fuse/wiring looks a good place to start. Edit: I looked at the wiring diagram, Motronic relay failure may cause the same symptoms. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Morning Tony Well IF you are sure fuse #5 has power both INTO, THROUGH, & OUT OF it then you need to move on to other possible things. At this point you should check for KEY ON power at the (+) terminal on the ign coil. (yes or no will tell you where to go next) Next thing to do is BY-PASS the side stand switch as a defective side stand switch can kill off power to both the Motronic & fuel pump relay. If by-passing the side stand switch doesn't help then you will need to get a wire diagram in hand & verify the Moronic relay is powering up & passing power on to the Motronic. Verify the fuel pump relay is powering up & passing power on to the fuel pump, etc. Also look (closely) at the wire attachments right at the battery (+) post. You have a main cable & a couple of other smaller wires hooked up there. If one of those smaller wires is broken or pulled loose that can drop power to the needed circuits that give you spark & fuel pump. It looks like Eric sent you a PM on your problem so if he is going to work with you & talk you through trouble shooting your problem let us know so we can back off & allow him to work you through your troubleshooting without adding additional complexity to your problem. You really need only one person to work with you at a time & talk you through trouble shooting all the possible sources of your issue. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You really need only one person to work with you at a time & talk you through trouble shooting all the possible sources of your issue. D.R., you be the brains & if need be, I'll be your fingers & eyes. I'm more of an A.C. (current) kinda guy. Link to comment
flars Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I am with Jim Moore on this - it sounds like HES. Many people find that the HES will pass all the tests in the world, and still be bad. The last inch or two of wire between the wire restraints and the sensors are the vulnerable places, and can only be checked by stripping the cover off the last few inches of wire. If you try to start the bike, does the tach jump around? Do you get a good spurt of gas out of the injectors? Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'd throw a HES in there and see what happens. At 130K you're due anyway. I'd also do a very careful check of your fuses. I seem to remember if you pull a certain fuse you will get the full temp on theh RID, but I can't remember exactly which one. Hell, I'd probably replace them and see what happens. It's only a couple bucks for that. Given your symptoms, I would go with the HES diagnosis. Flaky HES are not easily nailed down, without replacement. The fuse thing should be pretty straightforward with a volt meter. Good Luck. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Afternoon Tony Before just randomly throwing an expensive HES in it personally I would do a bit more testing in that area. In your original posting you didn't seem to have fuel pump at initial key on. As a rule a faulty HES would effect "no fuel pump operation" during actual engine cranking but not at the initial 3 second pump run at key on. This doesn't mean it can't be the HES just your symptoms don't seem to point directly to it. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks everyone! I will take the info you gave and pull it all together and track this down. I may be able to enlist Eric Socoloff as a second set of eyes which is great. Will be looking deeper into the issue Saturday. D.R. I will follow your lead and run down the list systematically. Thank you! Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Tony The secondary is isloated on the BMW 1150 (lost spark) so just put one probe in one plug wire tower & the other probe in the other plug wire tower. (meter on 10K or 20K scale) I'll assume that's the same with a 1100? Link to comment
dirtrider Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Tony The secondary is isloated on the BMW 1150 (lost spark) so just put one probe in one plug wire tower & the other probe in the other plug wire tower. (meter on 10K or 20K scale) I'll assume that's the same with a 1100? Evening Eric Yes, I should have mentioned that. The 1100RT & the 1150RT single spark use the same ----41978 coil. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks DR I've got a 1100 schematic & fuse/relay local info as long as I have email access. Wish us luck..... Link to comment
KDeline Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 IF I remember correctly and that is a big IF, when my HES went south a symptom I had was with the spark plug out of the cyclinder but hooked up and grounded to the cyclinder it would spark when I turned on the key. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ok, it's fixed! It took a second pair of eyes and a tutorial on meter use. A damaged relay in the motoronic slot was the culprit. Now this still doesn't answer why when swapping relays around previously I wasn't getting spark. Oh electrons... why are you so fickle at times! Thanks to Eric Socoloff for spending the day over here (we solved the issue in the first 8 minutes) talking and having lunch. A good time with a good friend made even better with a working bike! I am however going to get another HES sooner than later and stock a few more relays and keep my meter reading skill tuned up. Thank you all for guidance especially D.R. for the rundown list which is now saved for future reference. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ok, it's fixed! Time/miles will tell..... Still might be a gremlin or two lurking. Glad I could help out. Link to comment
tallman Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Kudos for job well done. Link to comment
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