Should poor people receive social drivers licenses?

[upflying]

Traffic stop started normal enough, an unregistered 11 year old Honda Accord driving the wrong way on a one way street.

Driver matter-of-factly states her driver's license is suspended and identifies herself with a ticket she received yesterday for running a red light and driving on a suspended drivers license. Driver acknowledges she should not be driving but she had to drive her 5 year old son to school and pick up an asthma inhaler for him at the pharmacy. Driver said the license is suspended because of inability to pay traffic fines.

Drivers license record check indicates at least a half-dozen prior convictions for driving with a suspended drivers license.

Asked about the lack of registration and insurance and she says, "it's not my car, it belongs to my sister".

Asked why she doesn't walk her son to school, "it's too cold, my son's asthma will be aggravated". (Driver lives two blocks from school).

Asked why she doesn't take the bus to the pharmacy, "son's asthma will be aggravated by the diesel fumes"

Asked why she doesn't depend on extended family and friends for transportation, "they don't have cars or drivers licenses either".

Driver begged me not to write her a ticket since she is jobless and has no money to pay the fine. Apparently she already owes thousandsof dollars in fines, all unpaid. Driver claims she did not see the one way sign.

I ended up writing her a ticket mainly based on the fact she had been stopped the day before and was warned not to drive. During that stop, the officer told her he would not tow her car if someone could come and drive the car for her. She made arrangements for a licensed driver to respond.

I also decided to tow the car since registration was 9 months past due. She was also parked in a red zone with no one to move the car.

At this point the driver "mother-fuched" me both up and down and from side to side. A very sad display of disrespect, especially in the presence of her 5 yr old son.

I just listened as the driver ranted on and on about my lack of compassion for drivers who have no money and job to pay for registration, traffic fines, drivers licenses and insurance. She explained she depends on the car to go to the shopping, doctor, pharmacy and school and she could not afford to pay to get the car out of tow impound. She added her asthma disabled son would also suffer physically because of my lack of understanding and compassion.

This experience is frequent and often occurs during traffic stops. Her uncooperative, indignant and irate attitude led to me to think about what could be done for drivers who appear to depend on a car as a "lifeboat" in the unfair sea of life.

Could driver's caught with the inability to pay traffic fines receive restricted licenses allowing driving only for subsistence reasons? How could that be regulated?

Driver acted like driving was an entitlement, how does one respond to that?

Could such drivers pay for fines through volunteer service?

Could driver's with unlicensed and uninsured cars receive government subsidy to pay for registration? Is insurance needed when drivers have no assets to protect?

Unlicensed and uninsured drivers are many more times likely to be involved in a collision as well as a hit and run collision.

Is it fair to safe, law abiding motorists for LEO's to knowingly allow and expose them to drivers with suspended licenses?

Did I do the right thing by towing and citing?

Interested to hear from non-LEO's on how I should have handled it.

 

[moshe_levy]

In my humble opinion, you handled it 100% correctly.

 

-MKL

[ragtoplvr]

If the town has effective public transportation, then I think the second she started cussing you she should have been arrested, her son put in foster care and the car impounded. She can work off her fines in the prison labor force. If she can not see a one way sign, odds are she can not see an oncoming motorcyclist.

 

Probably a good thing I am not police.

 

Rod

 

[pbharvey]

You should have locker her up...so she couldn't vote.

 

I have a good friend who is a police officer. I don't know how you guys do it.

[Polo]

I was waiting for the one mitigating reason why she should be the shown some compassion. I read your entire post and could not find such.

 

She never argued that she needed to drive to work, or find work.

 

She was lying!; she had gotten away with this too long already. No license, no insurance, no registration, a clear violation, a number of unpaid tickets. Since you did not buy the BS so she can do it again tomorrow, she proceeds to MF you, and blame society for her misfortune?!?!?!

 

I wont go into what I would like the world to be, but I think you were too benevolent given the evidence.

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

Clearly she did feel entitled to continue to drive without a license, with justification, since she had been allowed to continue to drive on so many previous occasions. Similar to the indignation most of us would feel if we were pulled over for doing 60 in a 55 zone, when we had been getting by with driving 65 in the 55 zone for as long as we could remember.

 

I'm not sure why someone's car isn't towed the first time they are caught driving without a license or with a suspended license. Similar to when I read of someone who gets in a wreck and is reported to have 5 or 6 prior DUI's, and I wonder why they weren't locked up for a good long time after their 2nd DUI, and for years longer after their 3rd DUI.

 

My suspicion for why these things are happening is that our society is in the process of breaking down, and we just don't have the facilities or resources to lock someone up for years after their 3rd DUI, or impound the car of everyone who is caught driving without a valid license. That there are just too many people violating too many of these laws, and the legal system is just unable to cope with them. Do you think this could be true?

[BFish]

IMO you did your job. There are times for understanding and compassion, but the prior record thru that out her window.

 

Your question on temp driving, state/fed funded license/registration is interesting. My opinion is not a good idea. Public transporation, old fashioned walking or whatever should be utilized.

 

Feel sorry for the kid. More than likely he'll never respect mofo's in uniform. (The mofo reference goes back to your post...no disrespect intended )

[upflying]

Clearly she did feel entitled to continue to drive without a license, with justification, since she had been allowed to continue to drive on so many previous occasions. Similar to the indignation most of us would feel if we were pulled over for doing 60 in a 55 zone, when we had been getting by with driving 65 in the 55 zone for as long as we could remember.

 

I'm not sure why someone's car isn't towed the first time they are caught driving without a license or with a suspended license. Similar to when I read of someone who gets in a wreck and is reported to have 5 or 6 prior DUI's, and I wonder why they weren't locked up for a good long time after their 2nd DUI, and for years longer after their 3rd DUI.

 

My suspicion for why these things are happening is that our society is in the process of breaking down, and we just don't have the facilities or resources to lock someone up for years after their 3rd DUI, or impound the car of everyone who is caught driving without a valid license. That there are just too many people violating too many of these laws, and the legal system is just unable to cope with them. Do you think this could be true?

Driving with a suspended licesne is a misdemeanor but it is not a bookable offense. LEO's can arrest but the cite release simply occurs at the jail instead of the street corner.

The car I towed this morning has a "30 day" hold on it. I did not disclose that to her for fear of escalating the situation.

When disclosed, I tell drivers that writing them suspended license tickets offers no deterrent to driving. But putting their car in jail for 30 days is a deterrent to driving.

Many drivers go ballistic when told of the 30 hold. Costs $1500 to bail the car out the tow yard.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Fine job!

 

I bet if you look around tomorrow you'll find another car you can take away from her when she does something illegal in it too... Please do!

[1MPH]

In my humble opinion, you handled it 100% correctly.

 

-MKL

 

 

Ditto!

[RonStewart]

You have known me to make negative statements about police action or inaction. I no longer give police the benefit of the doubt in a questionable situation.

 

This was not a questionable situation. I admire your skill and restraint, Bob.

[philbytx]

A job well done mate

[Quinn]

Isn't there a limited driver's license for DUI's, allowing them to drive to work and home?

 

She makes it sound as if she's in a hole to deep to see her way out. Without commenting on how much of it she dug herself, so you have th option of getting her and her asthmatic son some social services help?

 

----

 

 

[ragtoplvr]

In areas, like rural Missouri and rural Kansas, they will issue severely restricted hardship licenses. If alcoholic they have to have a breathalyzer installed, there are grants for this. They have to have liability insurance.

 

I knew someone that had one for about 2 years before the repeated offenses landed him in jail. He now rides a 50CC scooter. The well known liquor cycle! In the snow, in the cold rain, and I do not feel one bit sorry for him either. He is often drunk on it too, kind of gets a town pass. I guess they figure he can not do too much damage on it. On of these days he will be dead.

 

Rod

 

[Kitsap]

In my humble opinion, you handled it 100% correctly.

 

-MKL

 

 

Ditto!

 

Agreed. Her son is suffering but not at your hands, just maybe he realizes it.

[KDeline]

You have known me to make negative statements about police action or inaction. I no longer give police the benefit of the doubt in a questionable situation.

 

This was not a questionable situation. I admire your skill and restraint, Bob.

 

 

Believe it or not....me too.

[Shaman97]

If the town has effective public transportation, then I think the second she started cussing you she should have been arrested, her son put in foster care and the car impounded. She can work off her fines in the prison labor force. If she can not see a one way sign, odds are she can not see an oncoming motorcyclist.

 

Probably a good thing I am not police.

 

Rod

 

Effective public transportation in Northern California went away with the demise of the Key Route System.

[KDeline]

Driver acted like driving was an entitlement, how does one respond to that?

 

I'm kind of the same mindset. Maybe it was a privilege when cars first came out, but in this day and age it's hard not to be able to drive just to get by in real life. TBS if you screw up you lose the entitlement.

[racer7]

You know, much of China and many other places still gets by with bicycles. Keeps one in decent shape and takes almost no $- and reasonably practical in many places in the US where distances to survival necessities are only a few miles at most. Imagine what that would do for the obesity epidemic in that part of our population that subsists on greasy burgers, fried chicken, pizza and the rest of the fast food industry specials.

Its even faster than motorized stuff in certain urban situations

Like it or not, we generally live in a society where freedom (and justice for that matter) is at least partly defined by what one can afford. Today at least some parts of our society have "victim mentality" and believe their situation in life is someone else's fault/responsibility rather than their own. Often these are the uneducated who chose their own path before they were 20 and failed to get smart enough to correct and fix it before they got too old and lazy. Not much you can do about it for them and its clear that society as a whole isn't going to put a bigger % of $ into "helping" them either

 

One more thought. Don't get hung up on the "respect" thing. Sometimes that emotional response is simply a recognition of your authority and the other person's complete frustration and feeling of hopelessness or temporary anger and, of course, reacting to it at all is only a road to more trouble (unless physical violence forces a response). Had groups of hundreds of people reporting to me for most of my career, often in situations with time pressures and tough choices and sometimes ended up as a target for someone's venting. Its just a part of the job and usually they regret it and would apologize later if a chance arose. Despite having "opportunities" to fire folks for insubordination, I never did that- but by taking the brunt of some of those outbursts I never had anyone "go postal" either. Sometimes a thick skin is good for all involved.

[yabadabapal]

I think you did an outstanding job Bob. Perhaps if this had been done in the very beginning, this woman might not have been led to believe that she was the heir to some sort of entitlement.

I think you have a great idea for allowing a limited drivers license which would include a GPS Tracker via a computer that would immediately show when she was driving outside of the agreed upon route or routes as agreed upon when the limited work license was issued. There is a big difference between helping someone and allowing them to continue via entitlement, down the wrong road.

Make a recommendation about your idea to your representatives.

It might fly if you try!

[Bob Palin]

registration was 9 months past due

 

Could happen to anyone, la, la la, la la la...

[beemerman2k]

What a piece of work this woman is. If she had no priors, and clearly drove with respect for traffic laws, and yet was somehow caught, one might be able to cut her a break. But under these conditions, no way. And her attitude only confirms the unsuitability of her being behind the wheel. Imagine the barrel of excuses she'd offer were she to hit someone? Amazing.

[racer7]

With the budget issues in "big govt" CA, I suspect there is close to zero chance of getting $ aimed at that sort of thing even if there happened to be enough political support- which I also doubt. Any regulatory type of program that lacks a funded enforcement program is worthless anyway.

[markgoodrich]

Could driver's caught with the inability to pay traffic fines receive restricted licenses allowing driving only for subsistence reasons? How could that be regulated?

 

Aren't similar restrictions put on parolees sometimes, or DUI offenders? Regulation would be impossibly expensive, technically easy.

 

Driver acted like driving was an entitlement, how does one respond to that?

 

Your response was correct...from start to finish.

Could such drivers pay for fines through volunteer service?

 

Why not? People get sentenced to "Community Service" for all sorts of things.

 

Could driver's with unlicensed and uninsured cars receive government subsidy to pay for registration? Is insurance needed when drivers have no assets to protect?

 

To your first question, yes, they could, of course. But no, they shouldn't, I think. It's a real problem for many in areas with poor public transport, but I've no solution to offer. Yes, insurance is needed: liability insurance. I don't care about whether they (or anyone) protects their own assets.

 

Unlicensed and uninsured drivers are many more times likely to be involved in a collision as well as a hit and run collision.

 

Is this statistically accurate?

 

Is it fair to safe, law abiding motorists for LEO's to knowingly allow and expose them to drivers with suspended licenses?

 

No. I've been hit twice by uninsured motorists. I didn't like it. I would have liked it a whole lot less if they also had suspended licenses.

 

You clearly thought your actions through before citing the woman. The 30-day hold is reasonable from your point of view, and from most people's, despite the draconian effect on the woman's life...she'll almost certainly never see the car again, which may make it even more difficult for her to find work, if, of course, she is interested in doing so. This is a tough situation, and you obviously see both sides of the issue.

[Lawman]

Another good reason irresponsible people should not even get a license...No license...no suspension...

[Mike]

Truly, some people can't get their act together. While you hate to see them engage in self-destructive behavior, particularly when kids are involved, are we to turn a blind eye? You did the right thing.

 

A couple days ago I came across a single-car accident. The young woman, totally drunk, had crossed over the centerline, went into a ditch, and rolled her car. She was barely able to stand, but found her keys and was ready to (try to) drive away. When I pulled the keys out of the ignition, she lit into me, accusing me of "f-ing up her life" by calling the cops and not letting her drive away.

 

"Sorry, darlin'. You did that to yourself."

[Medic Mike]

Bob-

110% on the dot. This is why I am not a cop, I would have tased her just out of annoyance. You have more patience than I. I rally like that 30 day hold idea. If only I could do that with my 3am hammer toe call. Place them on a 30 day NO EMS resriction. Life would be good.

[mbelectric]

Seems she missed the question on the DMV test..."driving in the State of California is a priviledge, not a right"...

 

Thanks for at least "temporarily" taking away that right.

 

Good on ya Bob.

 

MB>

[Boffin]

 

I'm not sure why someone's car isn't towed the first time they are caught driving without a license or with a suspended license. Similar to when I read of someone who gets in a wreck and is reported to have 5 or 6 prior DUI's, and I wonder why they weren't locked up for a good long time after their 2nd DUI, and for years longer after their 3rd DUI.

 

 

In the UK, if a car is un-insured, or the driver has no licence, or has no MOT (safety test valid 1 year) or has no road-tax, it is impounded. To release the car a fee has to be paid and the relevant missing items sorted out. If not, after 30 days the car is either crushed or sold.

 

Andy

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Inability to pay a fine for one or two tickets? I could see someone going before a judge to make a financial hardship plea that allows a longer payback period.

 

If traffic citations aren't really about revenue generation, then yes, it ought to be permissible for anyone to work off a traffic ticket through community service. Minimum wage is somewhere around $7.50/hr, so maybe a $150 traffic ticket ought to equate to 20 hours of community service? Maybe we can finally get all the trash picked up from the sides of the highways.

 

If someone has racked up enough tickets to get their license suspended, then they are a dangerous driver and should not be on the road regardless of financial status.

 

If someone does not have liability insurance, then they should not be driving.

 

Did I do the right thing by towing and citing?

 

She has half a dozen convictions for driving on a suspended license. Driving without a license isn't a hazard in itself, but for her to have been stopped each time, she must have committed some sort of traffic infraction that was witnessed by a LEO.

 

Only one day before you stopped her for going the wrong way on a one-way street, she had been stopped for running a red light.

 

I'm not that concerned about her inability to pay the fines. The bigger issue is that her track record pegs her as a dangerous driver who should not be behind the wheel. If you had let her drive away, it would only be a matter of time before she got into an accident and caused major property damage she couldn't pay for, or injured/killed someone.

 

IMHO you did the right thing.

[tallman]

Isn't there a limited driver's license for DUI's, allowing them to drive to work and home?

 

 

----

 

 

Yep.

And the drunk who intentionally ran over me with his truck was allowed that as he was sole support of wife/daughter/grandchild.

A month or so later, same guy sped through an intersection, turning left in front of me (in my car)k forcing me to slam on brakes.

I asked my passenger if they saw the damage to the front of the truck.

"Yes."

I said, "that's where he hit me on my beemer".

This was 1971.

This type of scofflaw has been around as long as we've issued licenses.

Good job on calling her to task.

[RichEdwards]

Did I do the right thing by towing and citing?

 

Yep. You did exactly what had to be done. Now she needs to be hauled into court to be made accountable for her violations.

[Huzband]

In my opinion, you did almost all the right things. Certainly your patience went above & beyond the call of duty. But something much more important has not been addressed.

 

You stopped her for driving the wrong way on a one way street. The day before she was cited for running a red light. She has a five year old in the car. To my knowledge, which I admit is lacking in some areas, this qualifies as child endangerment. You should have arrested her & turned the child over to protective services. She should spend time in the prison farm working off her fines, & lose custody of her son. He, & everyone on the road, would be much better off.

[upflying]

Another good reason irresponsible people should not even get a license...No license...no suspension...

Actually drivers caught driving without a license are issued "index" numbers by DMV. This is a way for DMV and law enforcement to track driving offenses by drivers who were never issued and never applied for a drivers license. I have on many occasions seen "index" driving records become "suspended" for failures to appear and failures to pay fines.

[upflying]

Isn't there a limited driver's license for DUI's, allowing them to drive to work and home?

 

She makes it sound as if she's in a hole to deep to see her way out. Without commenting on how much of it she dug herself, so you have th option of getting her and her asthmatic son some social services help?

 

----

 

Not wishing to stereotype, generalize or profile the driver, I would think it is safe to assume the driver is receiving some sort of public assistance. That includes case workers who keep track of the boy's welfare.

[Mister Tee]

I have zero issues with removing unsafe drivers from the road. Particularly habitual unsafe drivers.

[upflying]

You know, much of China and many other places still gets by with bicycles. Keeps one in decent shape and takes almost no $- and reasonably practical in many places in the US where distances to survival necessities are only a few miles at most. Imagine what that would do for the obesity epidemic in that part of our population that subsists on greasy burgers, fried chicken, pizza and the rest of the fast food industry specials.

Its even faster than motorized stuff in certain urban situations

Like it or not, we generally live in a society where freedom (and justice for that matter) is at least partly defined by what one can afford. Today at least some parts of our society have "victim mentality" and believe their situation in life is someone else's fault/responsibility rather than their own. Often these are the uneducated who chose their own path before they were 20 and failed to get smart enough to correct and fix it before they got too old and lazy. Not much you can do about it for them and its clear that society as a whole isn't going to put a bigger % of $ into "helping" them either

 

One more thought. Don't get hung up on the "respect" thing. Sometimes that emotional response is simply a recognition of your authority and the other person's complete frustration and feeling of hopelessness or temporary anger and, of course, reacting to it at all is only a road to more trouble (unless physical violence forces a response). Had groups of hundreds of people reporting to me for most of my career, often in situations with time pressures and tough choices and sometimes ended up as a target for someone's venting. Its just a part of the job and usually they regret it and would apologize later if a chance arose. Despite having "opportunities" to fire folks for insubordination, I never did that- but by taking the brunt of some of those outbursts I never had anyone "go postal" either. Sometimes a thick skin is good for all involved.

 

Thanks for all the support. Makes my job easier knowing all LEO's have your support when faced with circumstances like this.

I didn't let her anger and hostility bother me but sometimes inner doubt is kindled when she made comments that she hates cops and hopes that someone would kill me. I felt especially sorry for the son who is simply a sponge for his mother's behavior. Sadly he will grow up with a hatred for law enforcement and his chances of being a productive member of society is in jeopardy.

I quoted this particular post because it seems to hit the nail on the head. It would appear the driver has become a "victimology" sufferer.

She has become so conditioned to perceived injustices and unfair treatment in her life that she blames others and the events for her sad predicament in life. I simply became another cog in the wheel in her world of injustice. I became the cause of the loss of her "subsistencemobile". Her anger was taken out on me because she has lost the ability to see that she is the cause of her troubles through her clouded emotions.

How did she become like this? Psychologists probably have many theories. I have some ideas but I refrain from speculating out of fear of generalizing a socio-economic class of people.

It boils down to people who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions.

[upflying]

I have zero issues with removing unsafe drivers from the road. Particularly habitual unsafe drivers.

Although what she did is unsafe, remember her suspended drivers license stems from the failure to pay traffic tickets and not because she a "negligent operator" by accumulating too many points on her driving record.

[upflying]

 

Unlicensed and uninsured drivers are many more times likely to be involved in a collision as well as a hit and run collision.

 

Is this statistically accurate?

 

One of many sources.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=92&issue_id=092003

[Francois_Dumas]

Wow !!

 

People with such a poor sense of responsibility and respect belong in one place only: the slammer.

 

Tomorrow she'll kill an innocent person with her illegal, non-insured car and throw some law-abiding family in a lifetime crisis.

[Smoky]

Thanks for handling it like you did.

 

And thanks for getting her and the car off the road.

[MT Wallet]

Non-LEO here. I want to tell you you're my kind of cop. I think you did everything you should have done. Towing the car is the closest thing to tough love she's probably experienced from the system. She had no insurance, as you said it's unlikely she had assets to protect, but insurance protects the other guy from her irresponsibility. Thanks for taking her off the road. You may have saved some cyclist from 6 Mo. of hospital time at the hands of this driver.

[bayoubengal]

You did the right thing. Thank you.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Although what she did is unsafe, remember her suspended drivers license stems from the failure to pay traffic tickets and not because she a "negligent operator" by accumulating too many points on her driving record.

 

 

As you've noted, the suspended license by itself isn't a hazard. However, from your OP:

 

Drivers license record check indicates at least a half-dozen prior convictions for driving with a suspended drivers license.

 

Like I said earlier, if she has been stopped six times, then there was a pretext for each of those stops. Given that her two most recent stops (yours being one of them) were for running a red light and going the wrong way on a one-way, each of those other pretexts was presumably also something unsafe, and each was done in the presence of an officer who then pulled her over.

 

How many times did she do something dangerous when an officer wasn't watching?

 

 

[leikam]

Bob, I think you made the right choice to cite and tow. Thanks. The sad part is that this woman just cost her sister the use of her car for a month plus the impound fee.

 

I'm pessimistic about regulations. People will drive when they think it's necessary regardless of whether they have a license or insurance or registration. If subsidies are to be made, I'd put them towards public transportation or bicycles. Or better yet, towards infrastructure and land-use policy which makes driving unnecessary. Cars are expensive and encouraging people who can only marginally afford to drive does them no favors.

[Mister Tee]

I have zero issues with removing unsafe drivers from the road. Particularly habitual unsafe drivers.

Although what she did is unsafe, remember her suspended drivers license stems from the failure to pay traffic tickets and not because she a "negligent operator" by accumulating too many points on her driving record.

 

Understood, but I was going by the history of repeated traffic offenses. And a flagrant disregard for obeying all laws including the administrative ones certainly justified getting her off the road in my mind.

 

Granted, the Tee would have a different traffic law structure if he was in charge, but the one we are given must be enforced.

[Dennis Andress]

You have a tough job, Bob. In this case compassion is for the judge to find. I like the comment about locking her up so she can't vote. That may be the only long-term solution.

[k9gromit]

I know you asked for a 'civilian' point of view...Afraid I can't help you out there, but a a fellow LEO - Good Job!

[baggerchris]

You did fine. I don't know how you folks do this day in and day out. 40 years ago, I did a stint as a Deputy on the Navajo reservation and I know that if I had kept doing that it would have ruined my life. It takes a very special brand of Man or Woman to do your job and I admit, I did not have the guts and fortitude to do it. My hat is off to you and I hereby stand up and salute you for doing a job that I would not and could not do myself.

[KLC]

You without doubt did the right thing. Say she had killed or seriously injured sombody .No insurance,no licence wont pay the victims bills. Driving without insurance in the uk involves immediate confiscation of the vehicle at the roadside plus points on your licence. Drivng a 1 ton piece of metal carries rights and responsibilities of which this individual doesnt seem to care about. Lock her up. Its estimated that uninsured drivers are adding 30% to law abbiding motorists premiums.