Generac House Backup Gen - Opinions?

[moshe_levy]

All-

 

I am in for a really, really sweet deal on a professional installation of a Generac 14KW natural gas house generator - see http://www.generac.com/Residential/Guardian/Products/Guardian_Series_14_kW/ and I wanted to know if anyone else here has one, and if so, your impressions.

 

Power outages here are rare indeed - one in the past decade that I remember, during peak AC hours in summer a few years ago when a transformer down the street blew up. We had no electric for about 4 hours. That was it....

 

But a large electrical project at work prompted a "group buy" of generators, since most of my coworkers have experienced many outages this year alone, from Irene to the freak snow storm in October.

 

So assume the cost is no issue because at this point it's really insignficant thanks to the large "group buy," and the electrician is known and trusted. 14W (really 13KW on natural gas, which is how mine would be configured) is more than enough for my whole house including AC which is ultra high efficiency, so I would basically be covered top to bottom in the event of emergency. Let's then focus on product, and let me know if you have any personal experience with this gen or any thoughts in general. Thanks!

 

-MKL

[ESokoloff]

I'll assume this beast resides outside?

If so what provisions are included to keep moisture at bay?

An electric heater somewhere?

 

How often should it be run to keep it in shape?

How often will the oil be changed & based on what.

 

And do I dare ask.... What kind of oil will it use?

 

Sorry I cant add more to this.

[moshe_levy]

Eric-

 

Yes, it's an outdoor unit - I'm not worried about the environmentals. A treated steel enclosure will hold up find around here, and it automatically starts itself weekly which alleviates any moisture, etc. and keeps internal fluids circulated. The whole thing is automatic. Typical maintenance on these is every 200 hours (oil and air filter) and oil is 30 weight under most temps - all pretty boring standard stuff. I'm really more interested if anyone actually has one, to alert me to any issues that aren't spelled out in typical brochures, etc.

 

-MKL

[AviP]

I'm not sure if natural gas is delivered or piped into your house. If it is delivered, note that delivery trucks are not permitted on roads with downed wires. During the freak Oct snowstorm, I met a couple of homeowners at a coffee shop that had generators but no fuel, propane in their case, because they ran out.

 

Gas/diesel can give you more flexibility at the expense of more frequent trips to the pump.

[moshe_levy]

Nahhh, my natural gas is piped in, so no issue. It's ideal because you don't have to go to any station or rely on anyone for delivery in bad weather.

 

-MKL

[jviss]

I have done a ton of research on home standby generators. I decided on what i wanted, didn't pull the trigger, and then ended up buying a smaller Honda generator in a panic in the midst of the 'freak' October 29th.

 

Most of the Generacs use air cooled engines. They run at 3600 RPM. This means high noise, and generally short life or low reliability. It's not to say you can't make a good generator that is air cooled and runs at 3600 rpm, but not everyone can.

 

I recommend reading the reviews of Generac generators on Amazon. There are complaints of engine failures, and poor customer service from Generac.

 

For me, I had decided on an 1800 RPM diesel powered, liquid cooled system of about 1o to 14k Watts, which would keep it to a 3 cylinder diesel. I would run it from my 275 gallon home heating oil tank via an electric lift pump. I ended up not doing this.

 

The Honda, an EU3000is, while much less capacity than what I planned on, is really very good. I can't run my 240V loads, so no cooking on our electric range (no gas in the street). But, it ran everything else: 2 refrigerators, lights, oil burner, coffee maker, microwave, etc., etc. And, since it is an inverter-based generator, i.e., non-sycnhronous, it will idle back when the load is low, saving fuel. It's ultra quiet. We consumed, on average, 1/6 gallon per hour, over a 20 hour period.

 

If you can afford it, I would go for a liquid cooled, 1800 RPM, natural gas generator, like a Kohler.

 

jv

 

[moshe_levy]

John, I'm not clear on why 3600rpm air cooled configuration is an issue. Nearly every small 4 stroke gas engine runs at 3,600 rpm. Any lawnmower, snowblower, etc. etc. all basically operate in that range. The 14KW model is a 1 liter v-twin, similar to a large commercial lawnmower, and these last for many thousands of hours operating in exactly this range. A liquid cooled Kohler is several times the price of an air cooled model which is more than enough for my needs.

 

-MKL

[Skywagon]

moshe...no comment on generac as no experience..however here in the hurricane alley of Galveston/Houston, I have been considering a similar set up. Our house is 4 years old now. It was a few months old when IKE knocked on the door and we were without electricity for 11 days. Swored I would get a good house generator, but procrastination and 2 seasons without a direct hit...

 

One of the neighbors has a unit that runs his whole house with 3 - 5ton airconditioners. His is natural gas too. Not sure of the brand.

 

Keep us posted...very intersted in your outcome...

[jviss]

The 3600 rpm air cooled is more noisy and shorter life than 1800 rpm liquid cooled, that's all.

 

I agree you can make a long lasting 3600 rpm air cooled generator, like the military diesels; but the Chinese engines don't have a good reputation for this.

 

 

[mbelectric]

I have installed a few in my time, so Plus 1 for the Kohler units. These days I install the larger CAT V16 diesel units on an Industrial level.

 

Generally Kohler has better power quality, faster startups , quieter operation, less maintenance.

 

In my experience, Generac units typically are cheaper,(at least the one's sold at the box stores) which makes them attractive to the homeowner. Interface sometimes

difficult depending on what system you purchase. Customer service is less than stellar compared to Kohler.

 

But then you are getting one for next to nothing?

 

Think you answered your own question Moshe.

 

Good luck, and don't forget the transfer switch...

 

MB>

[moshe_levy]

David, this isn't so much a research endeavor for me. I'm basically "stuck" with this brand in order to participate in what is a large group buy. I don't think I'm really stuck though - looks like a decent product on paper and the brand is certainly well known and pretty large. Like anything else involving the house (and motorcycle suspension for that matter) I think whoever installs the product is infinitely more important than the brand, so long as said brand is respectable.

 

John, I do agree, a liquid cooled Kohler is certainly a step above an air cooled Generac. It's also more than 3x as expensive initially, and as I said earlier I've had one outage of 4 hours in the past 10 years - not nearly enough to justify a "BMW" generator when a "Chevy" will do fine for my meager needs.

 

A typical small air cooled engine's service life (or duty cycle before rebuild) is easily 3,000 hours, bare minimum. To put this into perspective, if I have a few hours interruption PER YEAR (recalling I've had only ONE in 10 years) it will still be, at least theoretically, decades before I need to rebuild this motor. And obviously, a rebuild of an air cooled V-twin is substantially less expensive than a rebuild or service of a liquid cooled motor. FYI the Generac motors are made in Wisconsin, not China, per the FAQ on their site.

 

I too am pretty leery of the Chinese small gas engines I've seen. We bought a bunch of 6KW diesel gens from a Chinese manufacturer a few years ago - none of them ever worked properly. Cheap to buy, but ultimately worthless.

 

-MKL

[doc47]

Wonderful idea!

I installed a GenTran and bought a generator for my house after experiencing a 3-day mid-winter outage in Michigan. After that, of course, there was never an outage again.

Installing back-up is the surest way of insuring that you'll never experience a general outage!!

[Patallaire]

Quite frankly, I am not sure you can justify the purchase at all! One 4 hour outage in 10 years does not make a need, a want can be justified in any number of ways, and you have articulated many of them. I looked into those myself as we had a blowout storm here one October that kept me out of power for 9 days, first and only time I have ever had that experience. After looking at the cost of the food loss, re-designing my sump pump with a passive model and re-dundancy it made no sense to have a generator. Friends who bought them said they are a PIA as they must be operated everyday, automatic or not, they are loud, and it is another maintenance item. Just my thoughts.

[moshe_levy]

Pat-

 

At the price I I'm getting it I will not turn it down, want vs. need notwithstanding. I've got two little babies here and a power outage would be a disaster to deal with, so I'm not going to pass up this group buy. I've never crashed my motorcycle in 10 years either, but that doesn't mean I don't carry a good insurance policy.

 

-MKL

[racer7]

I've been responsible for a bunch of different very large backup generator and UPS systems as head of manufacturing (amd therefore maintenance) for large firms. The problems have most often been switch mechanisms, not motors. Even at the industrial level with a highly qualified staff, these things are a PITA that are tolerated only because when you really reeally need it, it will work if you do the upkeep BUT ONLY if you do the upkeep. (One day we saved a $10 MM manufacturing run on irreplaceable stuff when we needed the backup- that fraction of time before it kicked on had my heart in my throat). In general I found it at least as useful to threaten to sue the local utility - they had connected a new plant with a whole bunch of electric heat treat gear on our incoming line and every time they fired those things up they shut the line down so I forced the utility to run a separate line to us. (that single buildling used 3 megawatt on a regular basis and we had a 12 megawatt gas fired cogen in addition to diesel backup for the whole building plus a UPS for the electronic control that had a very large room full of battery racks and a switch contact over 3 inches in diameter.)

After my experiences with industrial stuff I've never thought about putting one on my house. A portable maybe..

[ltljohn]

I don't have one but my neighbor does. It is a Generac 10KV that runs the whole house. It starts and runs a diagnostic every week and has worked fine for 10 years. In that time we have had outages of 3, 4, and 5 days as well as numerous half day events. I must say he had a minor problem the last outage but it was up and running in less than 24 hours but it was 10 yrs old at the time.

[4wheeldog]

John, I'm not clear on why 3600rpm air cooled configuration is an issue. Nearly every small 4 stroke gas engine runs at 3,600 rpm. Any lawnmower, snowblower, etc. etc. all basically operate in that range. The 14KW model is a 1 liter v-twin, similar to a large commercial lawnmower, and these last for many thousands of hours operating in exactly this range. A liquid cooled Kohler is several times the price of an air cooled model which is more than enough for my needs.

 

-MKL

 

If it doesn't come with one stock from the manufacturer, make sure it has a low oil level sensor that shuts the unit down. Most failures of engines that run without supervision are due to oil starvation.

[jviss]

Quite frankly, I am not sure you can justify the purchase at all! One 4 hour outage in 10 years does not make a need, a want can be justified in any number of ways, and you have articulated many of them. I looked into those myself as we had a blowout storm here one October that kept me out of power for 9 days, first and only time I have ever had that experience. After looking at the cost of the food loss, re-designing my sump pump with a passive model and re-dundancy it made no sense to have a generator. Friends who bought them said they are a PIA as they must be operated everyday, automatic or not, they are loud, and it is another maintenance item. Just my thoughts.

Four hours, no problem. Four days when it's cold outside - problem! On October 29th, I lost power at about 6:30 p.m., and got it back on Tuesday, Nov. 1 at about 4:30 p.m., so three days. I bought a generator about 20 hours before the power came back. I'm glad I did, and glad I have it now. I plan on exercising my generator once a month. It's whisper quiet in operation: 49 to 58 dB(A). It sips gas - 1/6 gallon per hour (actual, measure by me in my application).

[jviss]

Moshe,

 

On the engine, as one engineer to another, I would like to point out the bathtub curve no doubt applies to engines: you will experience infant-mortality failures, and then failures after a long time in service. I recommend that you burn this in to screen for flaws or defects that could result in an early life failure. One way might be to just use it, under the load of your whole house, for long enough to get to the first oil change, which is probably at 20 hours.

 

jv

 

[moshe_levy]

JV, that's an excellent suggestion and precisely what I was thinking of doing. Yes, this unit has a low oil sensor with automatic shutdown. The engine seems to have all the usual bells and whistles you'd find on an engine of this size and type.

 

-MKL

[Lets_Play_Two]

I had a Generac 70kW generator for 5 years before I sold the house and never had any trouble with it. It actually had to run only twice in that period but operated flawlessly. Noise was not a problem and as I recall this was a 6 cyl. auto engine. It ran weekly for 15 minutes automatically and I had it serviced 4 times a year.

[moshe_levy]

Wow!!! 70KW? What did you live in, your own hotel?

 

-MKL

[Rocer]

I have a 6.5 kw Yamaha portable. I've been told when I do maintenance runs that this should also included loading the generator as well otherwise the windings surface oxidize and become progressively inefficient. I'd appreciate any comments on this as well. I presume when the unit in question does its maintenance run it doesn't switch to load.

[jviss]

Most automatic transfer switches, which is where the exerciser is generally located, allow one to optionally exercise loaded or unloaded. Unloaded is very bad for diesel engines, apparently causing glazing of the cylinder walls, and subsequent smoking and power loss.

 

I would recommend exercising loader; and no I don't mean drinking and then working out.

 

[mbelectric]

-

 

I've got two little babies here and a power outage would be a disaster to deal with..

 

-MKL

 

Just kinda wondering what we did back in the old days...If I remember right, we got the campstove out, blankets, and a deck of cards.

 

MB>

[moshe_levy]

-

 

I've got two little babies here and a power outage would be a disaster to deal with..

 

-MKL

 

Just kinda wondering what we did back in the old days...If I remember right, we got the campstove out, blankets, and a deck of cards.

 

MB>

 

We've gone soft. It's true!

 

-MKL

[racer7]

When I used to live up north wood stoves and oil lamps covered for outages- cooking, light, heat, etc all covered and lack of refrigeration was no problem with all the ice outside.

 

Down here in hurricane country my longest outage was only about 3 days and the biggest nuisance was lack of A/C. Cook on gas stoves, loaded freezers ahead with big ice blocks frozen in plastic bottles and taped a couple layers of cut insulating board around them and they held fine for 3 days. Soemtimes help friends who have portables and enough gasoline on premises to fire them for a long time. Got solar powered radios etc to keep up with what's happening and a police scanner which is also handy when large parts of the area are flooded, etc.

 

Maybe if I regularly got stuck for a week or more with no power I'd get more interested in fixed generator backups. When the whole area you live in is without power you aren't going to be going shopping or using computers and cable, etc. Getting by is pretty easy but the pace changes so much you may find boredom a real issue.