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Introduction and O2 Question


roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt
Roger Am anxiously waiting for your project to come to fruition. ... but am now very curious with what you are doing as it works along with the motronic and not over rides it, if my understanding is correct. ...

 

taylor1, the project is grinding to conclusion with some final decisions about connections, and connectors. I'd like, if possible, for there to be either one wire (ground) or none, other than the O2 connectors.

 

Your understanding is right. Most solutions for adding fuel disable the O2 sensor because it enforces stock fueling and cancels any fuel additions.

 

By changing the O2 sensor reference point from 14.7:1 (stock) to something slightly richer, the Motronic actually becomes your ally rather than your adversary. The Motronic then cooperates and figures out how to get the extra fuel delivered, lengthening the injector pulses to do so. And last but not least, it is very precise.

 

I'll keep updates on this thread for a while but when we're ready, product specific info will be on a web site and this thread will just be for research and data on using O2 sensor to enrich fueling.

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Today I began to work on my bike to install the LC1 and the R1200RT 3,5 bar fuel pressure regulator. I will also check the hoses in the fuel tank. For the fuel pressure regulator access, do I have to lift the tail and take out the air box ? If yes, i'm not sure i'll do this job, I've done it last year for clutch spline lubrication and I am not really tempted to do it again. I looked at the spark plug colour and since I have this bike, one side is always darker than the other. Stick coils were changed by new ones and even if I change them from one side to the other one, this situation remains the same. I seriously think that I will have to check the injectors if they deliver the same amount of fuel.

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roger 04 rt

Hopefully someone else can comment on the difference in spark plug color side to side.

 

It is my understanding that the regulator can be removed by fiddling the fuel distribution unit out from behind the airbox but I'm told it is tricky, you have to loosen the airbox and then squirm the plastic distributor about.

 

WJG and Jammess each put the regulator in but I think that is optional. Adding the 3.5bar regulator only speeds the adaptation time. (You can also do with a boosterplug or equivalent.)

 

If I were to prioritize, I would put cleaning and checking the injector flow ahead of the regulator.

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Afternoon legarem

 

I have heard of some installing a new fuel pressure regulator without removing the air box but I can't see how they are doing it without kinking one or both of the plastic distribution lines. Those plastic lines kink real easily & once kinked then that crease will always be there.

 

I do know some have cut the plastic lines then used rubber hose & clamps to piece it back together. That, I highly recommend you don't do, as fuel injection operates at a fairly high pressure.

 

On the spark plug color difference side to side? -- That is fairly normal & common if the bike wasn't ridden 20 miles or more then had the engine shut off with little or no idling before plug removal.

 

If you want good plug readings then take a new set along & ride the freeway at 75-80 mph for about 20 or 30 miles, then pull the clutch in, hit the kill switch & coast into a rest area.

 

Then allow the engine to cool & remove & mark the plugs for removal position. Then install the other set & ride on.

 

When you get home use a good glass & read the plugs (bet they look the same side to side).

 

You just can't get a decent spark reading if much engine idling involved & almost impossible if a cold start & cold engine idle is involved without a high speed run to clean & re-color them.

 

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roger 04 rt
Today I began to work on my bike to install the LC1 and the R1200RT 3,5 bar fuel pressure regulator. I will also check the hoses in the fuel tank. For the fuel pressure regulator access, do I have to lift the tail and take out the air box ? If yes, i'm not sure i'll do this job, I've done it last year for clutch spline lubrication and I am not really tempted to do it again. I looked at the spark plug colour and since I have this bike, one side is always darker than the other. Stick coils were changed by new ones and even if I change them from one side to the other one, this situation remains the same. I seriously think that I will have to check the injectors if they deliver the same amount of fuel.

 

When you are ready to program your LC-1 please see this note: Programming the LC-1.

 

Also, I need to make some slight changes to the documentation on the programmed values. Let me know when you're ready if I have updated the thread by then.

 

RB

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Today I lifted the bike tail to reach this damn fuel pressure regulator. Don't think to get it unless you do this job. I really can't think there is any other way to do this job. Wiring the LC! will be done tomorrow. I have to wait to receive my 3.5 bar (R1200RT) fuel pressure regulator bought on eBay and finding a shop to clean and test the injectors.

 

I also try to find a place on the bike to install the little round meter I got with the kit. It seems that there's not enough place on the dash to find a good place for it.

Edited by legarem
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roger 04 rt

Sounds like you're making headway, look forward to hearing as you progress.

 

There's no harm in installing the meter but it is only a snapshot of what's happening. I occasionally mount mine temporarily. When you really want a picture of what's happening connecting logworks3 and getting a datastream captured give much more insight.

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Roger

 

How about the stability of the LC1 system ? Do we have to reset the LC! after some time or it always stays at the setting we program ?

 

Thanks

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roger 04 rt
Roger

 

How about the stability of the LC1 system ? Do we have to reset the LC! after some time or it always stays at the setting we program ?

 

Thanks

 

It seems that the LC-1 holds its programmed values very well. I've quized Innovate about this and they say it is essentially permanent but that some kinds of static could change the programming.

 

I have never found the values to have changed even after mounting/dismounting, recalibrating, etc.

 

I've also posted this answer in the install thread.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt

Over the past couple of weeks I've been working with the riders of a 2007 R1200GS and a 2011 R1200GSA (terryofperry) to help them with their installations of dual Innovate Motorsports LC-1s. To my knowledge they are the first to install the LC-1 systems on the R1200. I'm taking this opportunity to preview the results.

 

There has been a lot we've learned about the installation and there is probably a small amount of fine tuning that will get done over the next month. The R1200 required different program settings but terryofperry has a GS-911 and was able to rapidly create the data that was needed to debug the installation. He's in Georgia and I'm in chilly Massachusetts so the work was done by phone and e-mail. I'm surprised by how quickly this was accomplished. (And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that DR was there, in the background, helping.)

 

The bottom line is that the 2011 R1200GSA has two Innovate Motorsports LC-1s installed and fully operational.

 

Just as a reminder, using the LC-1s results in a fully-functional Closed Loop integration with the BMS-K and requires no Dyno tuning to make it work, it leverages the full capability of the R1200, as designed.

 

Below is a chart of the two LC-1s, logging AFR data simultaneously, with histograms showing distributions of each independent cylinder's combustion, as measured by the LC-1, in the exhaust stream where the Wideband O2 sensors get installed in place of the stock Narrowband unit. From the results we have so far, the BMS-K is working, without the knowledge of the shift in Lambda (that's good), delivering richer fueling, and performance improvements similar to those of the R1150 installations.

 

R1200AFR13.8.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt
I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

 

Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

 

I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.

 

Last week I took some data from the LC-1 to see what was happening. The conditions of the plot below were:

 

Idled to log closed loop AFR.

Road in second gear between 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked

Road in first gear 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked.

 

Conclusions:

Above 4000 rpm in 1st or 2nd gear, the Motronic is Open Loop even if the throttle is locked-steady. Depending on throttle angle and load, the Motronic is leaner or richer than the lambda switch point, up to 4% lean.

 

On my bike 4% lean is 14.4; on a stock bike it would be 15.3:1, very lean. Add in some cylinder mismatch and the leanest cylinder could get close to 16:1—certainly in surging territory. This is the best measured evidence I've seen of surge-able conditions being created by the Motronic. This is much leaner than anything observed so far. As more bikes run LC-1s the Motronic will give up more secrets.

 

Also since the bike is Open Loop above 4K, the chart shows pretty good evidence of Adaptation being applied in the Open Loop area as the Open Loop AFRs seem well correlated to the lambda 0.94 target (13.8:1).

 

RB

 

fisrtsecondsurge.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
roger 04 rt

Although this is R1200 information, I'm adding the data to this thread because I think many readers have older and newer bikes.

 

Terry is in the midst of a several hundred mile trip into the mountains on his 2011 R1200GSA with dual LC-1s and has sent me hours of very impressive data that I've been going through. I'll add some of it to the thread later today or tomorrow. A few things stand out:

 

1) The BMS-K spends much more time in closed loop operation than the Motronic MA 2.4. After acceleration or deceleration it returns to closed loop rapidly.

 

2) After the Adaptation Values are reset there are very obvious imbalances between the AFR of the Left and Right cylinders. It seems to take quite a bit of time and driving for the BMS-K's full adaptation matrix to be populated. During that time the L/R imbalances persist.

 

3) After hours and a hundred miles or more of riding, the L/R cylinders seem nearly identically matched. The BMS-K has a very potent ability to balance the two cylinders through it Adaptation Strategy.

 

4) The quality and consistency if the data is high and the BMS-K is not issuing any error codes. The BMS-K is fully functioning and fueling the motorcycle at the programmed lambda of 0.93 (as Terry has programmed it).

 

Overall I'm very impressed by effectiveness of dual LC-1s on the R1200 and also the power of the BMS-K to manage fueling and to balance the L/R cylinders.

 

There are some implications: 1) if you change the intake or exhaust, the BMS-K will fuel to the set-point of the O2 sensor; eventually adapt to it fully. There could still be different exhaust resonances for aftermarket systems which would result in richness or leanness at specific engine RPMs and loads. 2) Simple attempts to alter fueling will be negated by the BMS-K over time. However, reprogramming the value of lambda through the O2 sensor are not negated. In fact the BMS-K is fully engaged in the process of shifting fueling. 3) The BMS-K with adaptive fueling and adaptive spark is so powerful that Closed Loop should not be disabled without a lot of consideration. Disconnecting the O2 sensor, as with a Power Commander, will leave the motorcycle without its most important cylinder balancing tool.

 

RB

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Hi Roger

 

I powered my bike with the LC! installed. Everything seems to work great but I am unable to operate the software to configure it. The computer doesn't recognize the device even if usb to serial software was installed. USB device is detected by the computer ( I hate PCs to die ) but something doesn't work to detect the LC1. I tried with XP and Vista and got the same results. Can you help me

 

Thanks a lot

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roger 04 rt
Hi Roger

 

I powered my bike with the LC! installed. Everything seems to work great but I am unable to operate the software to configure it. The computer doesn't recognize the device even if usb to serial software was installed. USB device is detected by the computer ( I hate PCs to die ) but something doesn't work to detect the LC1. I tried with XP and Vista and got the same results. Can you help me

 

Thanks a lot

 

They can be finicky to get the software to connect.

 

Here are some instructions I posted in the install thread: LC-1 Software Sequence.

 

Make sure that you are connected to the correct serial plug, one is IN the other is OUT. Refer to the instructions for which is which.

 

Make sure you have the terminator plug installed.

 

When you insert either plug or cable, twist it a bit to make sure the connections are good.

 

If you have trouble send me a PM and I'll give you a call.

Roger

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt

That's pretty frustrating. So I take it you've done the heater calibration and the free air calibration already?

 

Also where did you connect +12 V?

 

Last question for now, when you turn the unit on does the red LED flash for about a minute and then go steady red?

 

When LM Programmer 3.29 starts it often issues me a message saying it won't connect, but then after another 15-20 seconds it does.

 

If you want me to call you let me know.

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roger 04 rt
Any updates on the plug and play LC1 (almost) equivalent? I'm either going to buy an LC1 or your new plug and play device, but I'd rather buy something plug and play.

 

Any updates are appreciated!

 

Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update, here. The Proto 2 photo is below, a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.

 

The key pieces are the two BMW OEM connectors for which we now have a supply, you can see them in the photo. The connectors are what make it plug 'n play. Our manufacturing subcontractor has begun production on the first 25 units. Then after we've built the first couple dozen, we will gear production for a higher volume. Sometime in the next month I'll launch a web site that will allow the product to be delivered, the web site will be simple at first.

 

Because I also have the LC-1 installed that the same time I can compare Proto 2 to the gold-standard LC-1. For the past week, I've continued to ride Proto 2 which works very well. This weekend I'll be removing Proto 2 from my bike and sending it to a beta-rider.

 

I've also built an R1100, Motronic MA 2.2 proto which I'll post later this morning.

 

So progress is good, I'm evaluating thoroughly so that when we turn on production buyers will be able to expect prompt delivery.

 

bmw.ied.2.JPG

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Everything is connected as your published schematic

 

The led is first flashing then after some time it stays red

 

No I didn't do free air calibration and heater calibration. I thought it was optional. Do I really have to do it ? I'm not tempted to take out the gas tank again and clipping the tie wraps.

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roger 04 rt

You don't have to pull the tank unless it covers your LC-1.

 

First, let me ask, where did you connect +12V?

 

 

Here are some thoughts from Terry who also had some startup problems with the LC-1 software.

 

I am familiar with the USB to Serial communication problems so I will give my thoughts to Legarem when I have a chance. XP and Vista can be difficult regarding the drivers. I have two different USB to Serial adapters, one will work on certain programs and not others while the other works on another program even with Windows 7, 32 or 64 bit. I can use only one manufacturer with the Logworks strange as it seems. Stranger still is I need to use a certain usb port although I have several. Plugging into a different port and it is not recognized. I also had to go to the manufacturer’s website and pull down a specific driver. Then there is the sequence issue you have posted, allowing about 15 seconds between powering up the bike to opening the software. I do not know how familiar he is with “device manager” but that can be a good troubleshooting step.

 

 

 

I don’t know if your set up does this but after I turn off the key my LC-1 LED lights stay powered from the heater + for about 5-7 seconds and I need to wait until they go out before unplugging or the programming may not take.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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You don't have to pull the tank unless it covers your LC-1.

First, let me ask, where did you connect +12V?

 

12 volts supply is taken from the White +12V on the old oxygen sensor wire. The other white (ground) is unused.

 

My LC1 is under the tank so the new oxygen sensor has the same wire path as the old O2 sensor.

 

Yes, i'm unfamiliar with device manager because i'm a Mac user.

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roger 04 rt

So in order to communicate with the LC-1, you have to have your motor running. And your ground is two wires running to the battery?

 

Assuming that your motor is running while you're trying to connect I think you should at least do a heater calibration which means disconnecting the LSU 4.2 from the LC-1.

 

Although their documentation doesn't say so, Jammess had a problem with his unit and the Innovate Motorsport people told him to do a heater/free air calibration.

 

Terry has found out that some Serial to USB cables only work with some serial devices.

 

Mine's been finicky at times but always works. Two other guys have had no Serial to USB issues.

 

I guess if it were me, I'd bite the bullet, do the heater and free air cal, or find another serial to usb cable. The one I (randomly) bought is a Trendnet TU-S9.

 

BTW, a guy in Denmark just finished an install on an F800S. Turned it on, programmed it and went for a ride. But even for him he said the following: "I actually managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out."

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Problem is solved

 

After googling, I found many peoples having the same problem with their Usb to serial adaptor. I installed this software which everybody seems satisfied and it worked at the first time.

 

http://www.winchiphead.com/download/CH341/CH341SER.ZIP

 

I used custom value of 13.7

 

As it is now raining with melt snow, I can't try the bike.

 

I'll publish the values it gave with this setting.

 

Thanks again for your help.

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The picture doesn't seems to work after downloading it

 

Here are the values I got

 

1 volt at AFR 13.12 lambda .958

0.100 volt at AFR 13.99 lambda 1.022

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Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update ... a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.

 

Roger, any speculation of how beneficial (or not) the device might be for an '02 K1200RS ?

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roger 04 rt

I can't understand what you're seeing from the post. Please email the pictures to me or an LC-1 log file at pametfisher@hotmail.com

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roger 04 rt
Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update ... a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.

 

Roger, any speculation of how beneficial (or not) the device might be for an '02 K1200RS ?

 

I've got a lot of irons in the fire at the moment but I'm pretty sure that it would work about he same for your K1200RS.

 

At this moment we have 4 LC-1s install on 1150s, twin and single spark, GS and RT. It is also installed on two R1200s and an F800S.

 

It will richen the mixture on your bike by a programmable amount of your choosing. The question then becomes will the K respond as favorably to the enrichment--bet it does.

RB

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roger 04 rt
About what I figured. In line then for a unit when available.

 

What's involved in getting access to the O2 connector on your bike?

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About what I figured. In line then for a unit when available.

What's involved in getting access to the O2 connector on your bike?

I assume you want to see the style of connector, yes? I'm not where I can check right now, but found this on ebay ... Its an '01 but I believe the '02 is the same

 

 

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roger 04 rt

The connectors are the same, which is good. I was more interested in how much dissassembly is required to get to it.

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Ahhh .... never having traced it, don't know. Difficult or not, still count me in for a unit. :) The bike and I are not currently in the same city, so it might be next weekend before I can report back.

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roger 04 rt

Although I'm posting this in the Oilhead forum, I am doing so because it further shows the benefits of installing something like an LC-1 on a another model of motorcycle. In this case it was a friend's 2007 F800S. We began discussing the project about a month ago and it is now complete. Most of the installation took place over about a week.

 

The F800S has a BMS-K the same as Terry's installation last month on the R1200GSA. The same software settings worked but rather than a single load resistor to satisfy the BMS-K that an O2 sensor was installed, seven 1/4 watt 1000 ohm resistors were installed in parallel which you can see in the box below(he's a very neat craftsman) . His reasoning was that this would save space and slightly warm the box insides to keep it dry.

 

There are also two relays added inside the box. The first was a relay to switch the power, rather than use the O2 sensor Heater+. The second was a relay controlled by a panel switch to allow selection between the LC-1's two analog outputs. He has one setting at lambda 1.00 (14.7:1, stock) and a second setting at lambda 0.94 (13.8:1, 6% richer). This was a clever idea and he can switch mixture on the fly. (He comments on below.)

 

f800sbox.jpg

 

Hi Roger,

 

I managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out.

 

And the first road tests (100 km today) have been really promising.

 

First, I'm happy and proud that everything worked in the first attempt.

--Function is easy to check with out lifting the seat to see the status led - what you do is to ride the bike at a steady speed, fix the throttle, read the current fuel consumption in the extended dashboard display, and flick the switch on. Two seconds later, the fuel consumption has stabilized it self at a slightly higher level.

 

--Your calceulations were spot on: 4,4 l/100 km became 4,7 l and 3,3 l/100 km became 3,5 l when the richer mode was switched on. I know the dashboard reading is not 100% accurate and there's only one digit after the comma, but both tests are indicating a 6% increase in fuel consumption - or something close to that on a spot measurement.

 

--So I'm not seeing a reduction in fuel consumption like you do, but it may be related to the non-ethanol fuel we got over here? (Editor's Note: I believe I get about the same fuel mileage overall at 6% richer due to being in one higher gear much of the time.)

 

The F800 was never surging badly at constant speed, but with the richer mixture, it's definitely running smoother and feels stronger in all closed loop conditions. Quite funny actually, because now you can really feel how hard the lean burning engine was [struggling] before.

 

I would like to take the bike to a Dyno at some point to have a performance run on both settings to compare them. My butt feeling says that the engine is a couple of horses stronger all the way from 3500 RPM to redline, and the torque dip around 4000 RPM seems to be gone. But a dyno run will tell if my butt is right….

 

So it seems that your recommendation of the LC-1 complimenting my BoosterPlug installation very nicely—Open & Closed Loop. It's a real pleasure to ride the bike now with balanced richer fueling.

 

This setup is a keeper and is staying on my bike, and I'm happy that I have the capability to chose between fuel saving mode for cruising and power/fun mode for backroads and mountain riding.

 

I'm taking the bike to a rally tomorrow that will involve 70-80 km backroad riding, so I will get a good chance to test the LC-1 further.

 

Please accept my compliments for a bright idea and thanks for sharing it with me.

 

All the best.

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roger 04 rt

R1100 Prototype Lambda plug n play device.

 

Today I got out for a test ride with an R1100 prototype device. It's appearance is just like the R1150 verson except the connectors are different so I built up it up with salvaged R1100 connectors on either end. Then I took a used R1100 (thimble style) O2 sensor, lambda element grounded to the case, different from the R1150 style, and installed the R1100 O2 sensor in my R1150RT's second O2 bung.

 

Lastly I built an adapter cable to convert the R1100 style output connector to the R1150 connector. So the build-up was:

 

R1100 O2 sensor, connecting to:

R1100 Proto lambda device with R1100 connectors on either end, connecting to:

R1100 to R1150 connector cable so that I could plug it into my R1150

 

It worked as well as the R1150 version, maybe a little better. I believe that is due to the R1100 O2 sensor having a more powerful heater (guess?). There was no discernable temperature effect, meaning it was less sensitive to exhaust temperature than the R1150 sensor.

 

It works well enough now that I will send it to a few R1100 owners soon for their feedback.

 

The R1100 OEM connectors are decades old. It may be that the package will be a lambda shift device and a new R1100 O2 sensor, as a way of getting the needed OEM connector. It will add to the cost but many R1100 O2 sensors are very old and would probably benefit from replacement.

 

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roger 04 rt

Here another LC-1 install on a GS. The idle AFR variation he refers to was due to misadjust throttle stops. The throttle stop issue might not have been apparent for a while and it preceded the LC-1 install. One of the nice benefits here is that the constant AFR monitoring is a terrific diagnostic tool.

 

 

I've been following your threads extensively regarding the wideband 02 sensor installation on your R1150RT. All the data and discussion you posted in the forum really got me interested so I went ahead and got the LC-1 kit for my '02 R1150GS.

 

Installed it on Sunday, everything worked as planned. I put the 14.2 AFR tune you had posted on the installation guide in, adjusted the TB's for idle and balance again (idle was at like 1500 after the bike warmed up as it should). Today I took it out for an extended ride, about 250 miles.

 

WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

 

Acceleration across the board is better. Even starting out in first gear, the bike doesn't feel like it wants to stall below 1700 RPM. I can easily use one higher gear in all my driving, and there's no more pinging if I crack the throttle at low RPM.

 

Cruising at 75 mph was so much more enjoyable as well. The buzzing in the hand grips was drastically reduced, and the throttle seems a lot more forgiving. Before the mod, the throttle was so sensitive it was like a balancing act between accelerating and decelerating, very hard to maintain a set speed (a lot of people call this surging, maybe, or lack of throttle finesse. It's hard to keep steady even with everything setup perfect ). After the mod, I feel that the throttle is more forgiving, much easier to control. Much more like my old R65 used to handle.

 

I just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work and dedication to this project! It made the install a breeze.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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I installed a LC1 to my R1150Rt and I will never return with the bike in stock condition. With the LC1 you discover the virtues of the boxer motor. Torque is there and so you can drive the bike in 6 th at 2500rpm and when you open the throttle, it can rev without downshifting. Power is becoming smooth and torquey like it should be with this kind of motor. If you want to ride hard, the motor revs fast and without any hesitation. One word to describe the modified bike is: FUN

 

I want to thank Roger a lot for the research done and for the great help he gave me to make this thing work. It is fairly easy to install but the LC1 software and the serial port to USB port adaptor software gave me some headache.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello Legarem,

I can confirm everything you say about performance after install of the LC-1. I get the same results as you with my '04 R1150RT. Never was comfortable using 6th gear until the LC-1 and that alone is worth it. What AFR are you using? I have mine set at 13.5:1 and I hesitate to change from 13.5 because I can't believe the performance could ever be better. I did have my injectors cleaned and flow tested and that was like frosting on the cake. My bike has never run better in its 9 years of life. Before the LC-1 I was thinking about selling but not anymore. The difference is just amazing.

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Hi James

 

My injectors were checked and there was 1cc of difference during doing a test at 35 psi so they did not clean them. With the LC1 software, I had some difficulties to adjust it by the AFR. I adjusted it by the advanced method settled at 0.92. I think is is doing 13.5. I also use a 3.5 bar fuel regulator coming from a R1200RT. This fuel reg. replacement was the worst job to do with the air box we have to move. Really not funny !

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Hi Legarem,

Yes, I set my AFR with Lambda numbers as you did. I also have the 3.5 BAR fuel pressure regulator but my installation was simple because a couple years ago I got really pissed off at my ABS brakes so I removed all traces of the system including pressure modulator or whatever they call it (can't remember now) so there was plenty of room to work. My injectors were in dire need of cleaning so I really noticed an improvement in engine smoothness. I could actually see more clarity in the rear view mirrors. It only took 9 years and help from Roger for me to finally end up with the kind of motorcycle I thought I paid for. But, all is certainly well now. :clap:

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roger 04 rt

While you guys are talking about what AFR to run I'll mention Terry's experience on his 2011 R1200GSA. He started at lambda 0.96 and got a good improvement. Then over the course a month he tweaked it from there to 0.91 (9% richer) in small steps. It becomes addictive. Terry runs stock fuel pressure but already had a BoosterPlug.

 

Another guy with a 2006 1200GS runs 0.94 now, no FP boost or BoosterPlug. I was looking at his AFR plots and its clear his bike has built up a good set of adaptation values because the data looks the same as Terry's.

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Hi Roger,

A target lambda of .91 works out to an AFR of 13.4 which is close to the 13.5 I use so doubt I could tell much difference and I'm afraid to go much richer for fear of carbon build up that and you can't really argue with success.

 

Wish we knew more about the early 2.2 Motronic and if it has adaptability capability as I am thinking about an LC-1 for my '94 RSL. My '94 runs and performs just about perfect as it is with the ccp jumper cut and a CO Pot installed but I can't help but wonder. Have any of your converts installed an LC-1 on the early oilhead?

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terryofperry

I borrowed Roger's thread for a moment to post the following in the Camhead section:

 

After following Roger’s wideband O2 project and researching many alternatives, I have completed an install of dual wideband controllers on my 2011 R 1200 GSA. I have logged many hours of data over a few thousand miles both in the mountains (HeleNBack 2013) and in the flatlands of Central Georgia. I feel I finally have enough information to comment as some have requested.

The install was completed a few days before HeleNBack. It went very well due to Roger’s previous work and tremendous help by e-mail as well as phone.

 

We started with conservative settings, progressing in small increments based on data Roger was seeing and how I felt the bike was responding. Each day leading up to HeleNBack 2013 I would add 1% to 2% of fuel. I left for Helen with a setting of 0.93 Lambda (13.67/1 A/F R) in one switch position and 0.96 Lambda (14.1/1 A/F R) in the other. I logged data throughout the day, each night I would send Roger the data from the day to analyze and recommend changes. The bike performed very, very well.

 

Would I do it again? Yes, without a doubt. Does it transform the Big Pig into an S 1000 RR? No. The Camhead 1200’s run pretty good out of the box, add some fuel and they are wonderful to ride. The throttle is smoother, the motor response to throttle change is more linear, both on accel and decel, less hesitation, very responsive to small inputs. Adding fuel results in a cooler exhaust, cooler valve face, longer lived motor. The biggest change is in the higher gears. I can stay there a little longer without lugging the motor. Or shift up a little sooner with pulling power available. Based on my research and some knowledge of motors I expected some of these changes, one I did not expect was the ease with which it starts. Cold, warm, or at temperature it fires right up where before it did not. Upon returning I continued the programming changes. I am now at 0.91 Lambda (13.38 A/F R). The roll on power in 6th gear from 60 to 95 is surprisingly much stronger. Although best power may be down around 12.8 +/- I am looking for best ride-ability, best throttle response, best feel for me, not racetrack performance. I am very pleased where we are now.

 

Fuel mileage is still up in the air. I keep a record of every drop of fuel, I have information from Little Switzerland, HeleNBack 2012, and F.A.R.T. before the LC-1 install. Preliminary tabulations from HeleNBack 2013 indicate two tanks got less mileage than a year ago, 2 tanks got slightly more. Too many variables to reach an accurate conclusion. I will monitor it in the flatlands here and have a better idea but I gotta say it is a lot more fun to ride.

 

Do I recommend it? It works through the entire RPM range, open loop and closed, plays very well with the BMSK ECU. For those wanting to log data, program precise control, and do not mind the wiring, it is ideal. My install and set up went extremely well because Roger knows what he is doing. The fact we spoke the same language with regard to the data and the motor helped the process proceed swiftly. Roger’s groundwork has resulted in bikes running very well quickly. Most settings have been tested, the 1150, 1200, and now an F 800 are pretty much good to go. If you want all of the benefits without the wiring involvement I would recommend the device Roger is working on. It will do everything the LC-1 will except log data, not really necessary now. I have owned a Techlusion, I have a lot of experience with the Power Commander, I have a Boosterplug device, the O2 sensor device is the correct way to go about it. Tell the ECU what you want and let it accomplish the task.

 

Terry

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When I look at the design of the air box, it seems that the air intake is quite small, I was wondering with the LC! if I could take out the intake snorkel to have more air for the motor. The LC1 with the Motronic should adjust the correct AFR with more air. Do someone tried it ?

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terryofperry

Legarem

 

Someone more knowledgeable will have a better answer but our motor is not using all of the air available in the air box now. Without forced induction only so much air can get in the combustion chamber. It would be very evident if the motor was starving for air. You can try it, won't hurt anything and I am interested in the results.

 

Terry

 

 

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When I look at the design of the air box, it seems that the air intake is quite small, I was wondering with the LC! if I could take out the intake snorkel to have more air for the motor. The LC1 with the Motronic should adjust the correct AFR with more air. Do someone tried it ?

I can't find the link, but in the past someone did some intake filter tests on a R1100RT to investigate if high-flow filters would help the RT. The bike was dyno tested in various filter configurations - with the filter more than half-covered in food wrap there was _no_ reduction in power from the engine.

So, in short, these bikes are not in any way intake restricted. (except that the intake tracts can be slightly improved, but the real restriction lies in the exhaust ports - to about 2-3% extra power - or no noticeable difference without a dyno)

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

 

If the bike is in stock condition I don't think that opening the air filter box will give extra power but with a LC1 adjusted art 13.5:1 will it be the same ?

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roger 04 rt
Hi Andy

 

If the bike is in stock condition I don't think that opening the air filter box will give extra power but with a LC1 adjusted art 13.5:1 will it be the same ?

 

AFR setting doesn't effect that reasoning. For most if your driving adding air, if you find a way, only means you use less throttle—unless you're at WOT a lot of the time.

 

I tend to agree with Terry and Andy, you won't be able to get much more air into the engine and if you did, the only place it would matter is between 70-80 degrees throttle. At full throttle, even with your stock sensor, there was already enough fuel (At 50-80 degrees throttle, the AFR is between 12.5 and 13:1 stock.)

 

It's my believe that if you added some kind of forced air system to boost air pressure, that would mean smaller throttle angles at cruise, if anything detracting from engine smoothness.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt

We've been running some tests with the LC-1 and my GS-911 on Wally's bike. I've learned about several differences on the R1150GS single-spark Motronic. The important differences are that the ECU's microprocessor seems slower, it's data acquisition seems less frequent, and the GS locates its O2 sensor in a place that seems to have less air flow. As a result, at regular idle, the Closed Loop period is a VERY slow 4 to 5 seconds. One to two seconds would be the norm.

 

Other than that, the LC-1 and single-spark Motronic MA 2.4 play very well together. Here is a beautifully adapted cold start sequence with some notations.

 

RB

 

wallycoldstart.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt

Thought I'd provide some updates on what's been going on lately.

 

There are three beta devices circling their way around the US and Canada—r1100, R1150s. All are progressing very well.

 

I took delivery of an R1200 wiring harness and harvested 4 female O2 connectors so I can build beta units for R1200s and F800s soon.

 

For the Narrowband device I expect to get production approval units this week.

 

On My R1150RT with LC-1

I added a small switch to my lc-1 connector box. The switch has three positions: off (so I can run open loop when I want), connect to LC-1 analog 1, and connect to LC-1 analog 2 (analog 2 is usually for the gauge but can be programmed like analog 1). The switch connects to the black (O2+) wire in the O2 connector cable. This allows me to do an a/b comparison of two different mixtures with just a switch.

 

I rode at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1, I'm doing it for comparison testing. I'll also try a very lean setting soon like 16.2:1 to measure economy.

 

Here is an LC-1 report from a recent self-done implementation.

 

"I'm really amazed by the performance of the motor with the LC-1. Peoples who don't try it are lacking something. I loved the old BMW powered with carburated motors because they had torque. Now with the LC-1 I have this feeling. Today I went for a high speed ride and I would be surprised to look at the time required to do 1/4 of miles. The motor revs fastly with authority. I'm in love with my bike.

 

My AFR is settled at 0.925 and 0.915.

 

The only drawback is idling which seems overly rich when it is cold and with the fast idle. The motor doesn't like to be kept at idle when cold because after some time it doesn't idle smoothly until I open the throttle to rev the bike. As stated I suspect overly rich mixture when cold and the exhaust gas stinks.

 

Thanks a lot for everything."

Edited by roger 04 rt
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