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roger 04 rt

Introduction and O2 Question

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roger 04 rt

In August I bought a 2004 R1150RT and for the past several months I've been reading this great Board. It has helped me to do all the regular service required at about 30,000 miles, including a CAM tensioner upgrade to the left side. The summary of what I've been doing is here at, 04 RT Summary. The only thing I haven't tackled is the Spline Lube but will in a couple months. The bike runs great. Thanks to many on this forum and to your great archive.

 

In the meantime, I am experimenting with a few things. One is a Wideband O2 Project that I've started writing about. My goal is to richen both Open and Closed Loop mixtures a bit to make the bike as strong running hot as it does when cold, before the O2 sensor allows Closed Loop.

 

Moderator Edit: Please see Ad in Classifieds

 

I hope to have the chance to add to this Forum.

 

Thanks,

Roger

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ednowicki

I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

 

Ed

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dan cata

So you want to use this O2 sensor?

 

LC_1.jpg

 

From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

 

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then ;)

 

Dan.

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dirtrider

Morning Roger

 

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

 

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

 

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

 

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

 

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

 

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

 

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

 

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.

 

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roger 04 rt
So you want to use this O2 sensor?

LC_1.jpg

 

From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

 

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then ;)

 

Dan.

 

Dan, That is the unit. The Bosch Wideband with that is 4/5 wire and plugs into the LC-1.

 

The LC-1 has a wideband output AND a simulated-programmable Narrow Band output. In order to make use of the Narrow output, I need to attach a connector like the one on the orignial Narrow Band O2.

 

Boosting the pressure or bigger injector nozzles would richen the Open Loop mixture but once the bike goes closed loop, which it does half or more of the time, the AFR goes back to stoichiometric about 14.1:1 for the E10 fuel we get up here.

 

I have used a BoosterPlug to slightly enrichen the Open Loop mixture. It is the Closed Loop mixture I'm looking to slightly alter.

 

I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

 

Ed

 

Ed, Thanks. I've studied the Techlusion products and they're not what I'm looking for. I think the Motronic is pretty good, just a bit lean in Closed Loop mode.

 

The LC-1 has a Narrow Band output and I'll program Lambda (AFR) down from 1.0 in small steps. This way I'll have control over the closed loop fueling ratio but still keep all the functions of the Motronic intact.

 

The BoosterPlug is interesting. It only affects Open Loop modes but its 6% enrichment just about matches the 4% enleanment of E10 fuel. So I think Open Loop is good just now.

 

 

Morning Roger

 

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

 

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

 

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

 

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

 

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

 

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

 

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

 

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.

 

Good Morning D.R,

 

There are two outputs from an LC-1:

 

1) programmable Narrow Band output, sharp transition 0V to 1V, that can replace the stock Narrow Band O2. I need a connector to attach to this wire to plug into the Motronic. If worse comes to worse, I'll cut the connector off my good O2. This has been used on Motorcycles before. Zeitronix also makes a unit I considered, the ZT-3.

 

2) wide band linear output 0v = 7.35:1 AFr, 5V = 22.39:1. This will drive a small AFR gauge I plan to mount at least temporarily.

 

The Techlusion boxes are reasonable but affect the Open Loop mode more than closed. And it keeps the Narrow Band sensor so Closed Loop can only be Lambda=1 (14.7 AFR).

 

The Power Commander III USB is something I seriously considered. It uses the same Wideband Sensor as the LC-1 but adds fuel map modification capability that I'm not looking for yet. By taking control of the Closed Loop mode from the Motronic, it's a bit more invasive than I'd like. It interecepts the TPS, both Injectors and the O2 Sensor and Closed Loop.

 

One interesting thing I noted while playing with the PC III software, it starts Closed Loop AFR at 13.8:1 (Lambda=0.94) !! This is a big hint to all of us that the bikes run better with a Closed Loop fueling ratio nearer that number. I plan to start Lambda at 0.98 and work downward in 0.02 steps.

 

If you look toward the bottom of this page: R1150RT Open/Closed Loop Data, you can see how much of the time the bike runs Closed Loop, even going Closed-Loop-lean during acceleration!

 

I'm excited to see what dropping the Lambda with this sensor will do and appreciate everyone's support and interest. Below is a chart of one of the graphs from the above link.

 

RB

 

datastream.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dan cata

Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that ;)

 

Dan.

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roger 04 rt
Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that ;)

 

Dan.

 

Dan, Thanks. There's no easy way to make a JPEG from a spreadsheet that I know of. I used PrtSc. In the future I'll use Alt-PrtSc. Roger

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dirtrider

Morning Roger

 

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

 

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

 

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

 

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

 

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.

 

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roger 04 rt
Morning Roger

 

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

 

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

 

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

 

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

 

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.

 

For the several percent I'm moving the CL ratio, the Motronic will see this as a usual O2 sensor behaving in the normal way (but I will have moved Lambda and the binary switch point you mentioned in a way that is invisible to the Motronic). I will double check this with the GS-911.

 

Your comment about Hot Curb Idle is interesting. I've ridden several times with my GS-911 and Computer datalogging info. The Motronic goes Closed loop more than half the time, including during acceleration, once the bike has warmed.

 

My reason for taking the minimalist approach is that I believe that BMW did a pretty good job designing this engine and its fueling. The difficulties came when the EPA mandated 14.7:1 and the 3-way converter, and then compounded the problem with e10 fuel during Open Loop which needs a richer fuel table to stay on par with pure-gas.

 

Anyway, I'm taking small steps, will try to stay as close to Lambda=1 as I can. It surprises me how much stronger these bikes are just before they warm up enough to enable Closed Loop.

 

Thanks very much for your interest and feedback, I really appreciate it. I haven't seen this done on an Oilhead or BMW before but have seen some results of the LC-1 on a Harley and have talked to the shop that did it. We shall see ...

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider

Afternoon Roger

 

Obviously the BMW system is programmed to go into & stay in closed loop way more than at hot curb idle.

 

The reason I mention the hot idle closed loop is at most above idle & road load conditions even a slightly rich running system will run the cat. clean. At hot curb idle there just isn't much engine loading or exhaust heat to keep the converter fired up & hot enough to keep itself clean.

 

I think you are taking the correct path by installing a wide band fuel/air ratio meter but making it WAY more complicated than necessary by trying to shift the lambda point using a W/B 02 sensor & input spoofer.

 

Once you get your fuel/air meter installed & the fueling readings believable you should see that just disconnecting the 02 sensor & forcing open loop will get you pretty close to what you are looking for. Then if you still have a few sags in your fueling control just install a Techlusion or Power Commander & trim the fueling a bit closer to what you want.

 

I have installed quite a few Techlusion's over the years on a single spark BMW system & for the most part they work pretty good. As a rule the twin spark systems can handle the leaner narrow band control (if) all 4 spark plugs are working as intended. Lot of riders riding around with a weak stick coil & don't even know it.

 

I like the Power Commander better on systems that allow both spark & fuel control but on the BMW the Power Commander only allows fueling control so not a lot of gain from the Power Commander.

 

The BMW Motronic 2.4 system is still pretty crude in that it isn't a sequential injection system & controls both sides to only one lambda sensor.

 

On the Harley fuel injected system that is a different system with the newer ones using an Ion Sensing System as well as cylinder head temp input.

 

I really can't comment on that LC-1 system but if like other similar systems I have seen used on the early fuel injection systems the output is mostly ignored by the fueling computer after a time so the fueling computer goes open loop & the thing runs better so therefore people think the added system is fueling to closed loop & still making it run better.

 

 

 

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roger 04 rt

Yesterday I pulled the tupperware and exhaust, removed the stock O2 and dropped in the wideband LC-1 O2 sensor. Also scoped out how and where I will locate and connect the LC-1 "computer". It looks like it will fit nicely under the tank strapped to the frame, in front of the ABS. Will add a photo later.

 

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?

 

Also installing Beemerboneyard metal QDs at this time since the tank is off.

 

Once installed my plan is:

 

1) Ride with the O2 sensor function NOT connected to the Motronic to get baseline data ON AFR/Lambda.

 

2) Attach virtual-narrow-band O2 function with Lambda=1 to verify that it runs correctly and stays Closed Loop as per the stock O2 sensor.

 

3) Adjust Lambda upward and downward in small steps to measure its effect on warmed-up driveability.

 

RB

 

 

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dan cata

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?

 

 

Since you are so close to it, why not run it from the battery? If it was further, I usually find the closest screw that bolts into the frame and connect it there, but the battery terminal is the best way to go here, imho.

 

Dan.

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roger 04 rt

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?

 

 

Since you are so close to it, why not run it from the battery? If it was further, I usually find the closest screw that bolts into the frame and connect it there, but the battery terminal is the best way to go here, imho.

 

Dan.

 

Thanks Dan. That's what I was thinking too so that it is electrically closest to the Motronic ground. The main battery ground seems to go from there to the harness ground (buried in covering) and also to a motor connection under the ABS.

 

Power (12V) will connect to a key-on lead in the electrical box.

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roger 04 rt

Yesterday I finished installing the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Controller on my 2004 R1150RT. Before describing the project and my first test ride impressions a couple points:

 

--When the valves are adjusted, idle set and the throttle bodies are balanced my 1150RT runs pretty well.

--My preference is that the motorcycle is as near stock as possible, maintaining EVAP canister and Catalytic converter.

--BMW and Bosch (Motronic, O2 sensor, ABS) design well and know more about these systems than I ever could.

--The aircraft that I flew for a couple decades had three main performance modes: Full Rich (takeoff and climb), Best Power (fastest cruise, AFR< 14) and Best Economy (greatest range, AFR > 15). Although all modes were "smooth", if you over-leaned Best Economy the engine would start to stumble and eventually ping.

 

--Ethanol fuel: The 2004 RT uses Open Loop fueling tables that were designed for gasoline with a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1. In the Northeast US, gasoline with up to 10% ethanol is about all that's available, which has a 14.1:1 AFR. This suggests that the stock Open Loop fueling tables run about 4% leaner than the BMW/Bosch designers planned for. (In Closed Loop operation when the O2 sensor is used for control it automatically corrects for the E10 fuel.)

 

--My '04 RT feels strong while the engine is cold. After warming up, the motor seems reigned-in a bit from 2,000 rpm to 4,000 rpm (and reminds me a lot of how my plane felt with a too-lean mixture). After warming up the Motronic allows Closed Loop operation with the O2 sensor which means the AFR (in gasoline terms) is toggling between an AFR in the low 14s to an AFR in the low 15s. And since the cylinders are independent of one another, one cylinder is bound to be even leaner than the other.

 

My project goals:

1) Open Loop: Richen fueling tables to compensate for gasoline with Ethanol added. For this I've used a BoosterPlug which claims 6% richer mixtures; and ethanol fuel is about 4% leaner so I'm guessing about a 2% gain richer mixture overall.)

 

2) Closed Loop: Richen the stoichiometric target by the smallest amount needed to remove the sense of leanness between 2,000 and 4000 rpm. The Innovate Motorsports LC-1 provides a programmable Narrow Band output to the bike's Motronic ECU input.

 

Project:

LC-1 Kit: Bosch Wideband O2 sensor, LC-1 Controller, Cables, Programming Software, Serial Bus programming input.

Also purchased: PC Serial Bus to USB Converter (since none of my computers have serial inputs)

 

1. Pull the fairings, remove the fuel tank (replaced QDs at same time).

2. Drop the exhaust, remove stock Narrow Band O2 sensor, install Wideband O2 sensor.

3. Install LC-1 controller on right side of bike, under tank on frame, near alternator.

4. Connect Wideband O2 to LC-1, routing cable using same path as stock O2 sensor.

5. Route LC-1 cables to left-hand side of bike, along frame, and make connections to power, ground, AFR meter (part of LC-1).

6. Route LC-1 programming cables to area under seat behind electrical box.

7. Connect LC-1 Narrow Band output to Motronic by cutting and splicing into the original O2 sensor leads.

8. Leave O2 heater wires connected to the stock Narrow Band sensor, temporarily, until I can figure out what the Motronic needs to "see" in order to enable Closed Loop and not create a fault code. Tie wrap O2 sensor to frame.

9. Program closed loop AFR target to 14.2 which was a guess about where to start.

10. Start the motorcycle, attach the GS-911, let it warm up, confirm Closed Loop operation and make sure there were no Fault Codes in the Motronic. EVERYTHING WORKED! (Photo below shows #1) AFR switch points, and #2) that the bike entered Closed Loop after warming up.)

 

The installation took about 6 hours spread over a few days. Someone experience could do it faster but it was the first time I'd pulled the tank and exhaust. I got out for a test ride late yesterday.

 

Riding Impressions:

The course was over winding, hilly, straight and flat roads for about an hour. I am truly excited by the first results. Knowing that I'm looking for a positive outcome I wouldn't blame you for being skeptical. I haven't collected data yet to back up my impressions. But I'm not selling anything, just trying to enjoy my bike more. Here are some observations.

 

--No hesitation, no feeling of being reigned-in or surging. No popping, pinging or backfiring. In brief, no negatives.

--Very smooth acceleration in every gear at high and low RPMs.

--Good roll on throttle response at high and low RPMs.

--Very good cruise at low RPMs (2,500 to 4,000). 5th gear was a pleasure at 40 MPH or so. 6th gear, from memory, was easy at 50.

--Smooth at high RPMs.

--Warmed-up bike using Closed Loop modes feels just like the cold engine--strong and smooth.

 

Still to be done:

--Clean up wiring

--Figure out what to do about Motronic heater wires (cut or add a resistor)

--Try many more combinations of Closed Loop AFR settings

--Carefully monitor Motronic operation with GS-911 (no error codes so far)

--Get an exhaust gas analysis after settling on an AFR.

 

I'm not sure how much I can get done before the snow starts here in MA. When it does start snowing, the bike will get opened up for a spline lube.

 

afr14.2.jpg

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dan cata

Nice work, Roger ;)

 

As for the heating wires, AFAIK, the motronic calculates the time since the engine was started and until it gets info from the O2 sensor, this meaning that it has reached the working temp, being heated by the resistor inside the O2 sensor. If that time amount is > than a predefined value, it will raise an error about the O2 sensor being bad. Not sure if this affects your current setup but you might want to consider this.

 

Dan.

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roger 04 rt
Nice work, Roger ;)

 

As for the heating wires, AFAIK, the motronic calculates the time since the engine was started and until it gets info from the O2 sensor, this meaning that it has reached the working temp, being heated by the resistor inside the O2 sensor. If that time amount is > than a predefined value, it will raise an error about the O2 sensor being bad. Not sure if this affects your current setup but you might want to consider this.

 

Dan.

 

Dan thanks. The LC-1 is pretty fast. Maybe 20 sec. So I should be able to cut the wires and remove the sensor. How did you figure that out?

 

RB

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roger 04 rt

Over the last two days I've put a few hours on the bike. I have to say, that the slight downward shift of Closed Loop Lambda (AFR) from 1.000 to 0.965, has made a remarkable change in smoothness and low-end power. There has not been any sense of hesitation, in fact quite the opposite. I'm now running RPMs between 2500 and 3500 around town, even in 5th gear.

 

As far as the Motronic ECU is concerned the data looks like this:

 

Total data points: 4,000

Percent Closed Loop: 45% (same as before for the local conditions)

Average Closed Loop Lambda Voltage: 410 mV (right where expected, indicating good loop closing)

 

The new shift plots are looking the same as the earlier stock sensor plots. The big difference being the improved performance and the AFR meter reading 14.2:1 +/-. The above also indicates that the Motronic has been "convinced" to accept the programmable O2 setting and doesn't know that I've richened Closed Loop Lambda.

 

The next tests will be on the highway.

 

There are several variables still to be tuned:

 

High Lambda Voltage: (800 mV to 1V)

Low Lambda Voltage: (0V to 200mV)

Low Lambda Value: (how far below the 0.965 mid-point)

High Lambda Value: (how much above the 0.965 mid-point)

Target Lambda: (is there a better target that 0.965, implied AFR 14.2)

 

Filter Sensor inputs?

Monitor Sensor waveform.

 

In spite of what needs to be evaluated still, it looks to me like a slightly lower Lambda target (richer AFR) makes a MUCH smoother bike.

 

Will post up some charts later.

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roger 04 rt

Here are some plots of several thousand data points acquired while running at 14.2 Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). The key observation is that the Motronic is operating normally, unaware that it has been spoofed to run at Lambda=0.965 which is an equivalent gasoline AFR of 14.2.

 

This an acceleration through a couple of gears with a warm engine. Notice that just like the earlier chart (a few posts back), the Motronic goes into closed loop while the RPM is accelerating. The Motronic doesn't know the Closed Loop AFR is 14.2, but for the rider (me) the engine feels much stronger and smoother because the AFR is richer.

 

14.2lrpm.jpg

 

 

The next two charts show a before (14.7 AFR with Stock Narrow Band O2 Sensor) and after (14.2 AFR with Wideband O2 Sensor and LC-1 connected to the Motronic in place of the Stock Sensor). Although the shapes of the curves are different due to how I have set up the hi/low transitions (something I will continue to experiment with) the key takeaway is that the Mean (average) and Median voltages are nearly identical (about 20 mV different). This suggests that the Motronic is controlling Closed Loop operation and is satisfied that it is in charge, producing the same average Lambda in Closed Loop.

 

Stock O2 Sensor

14.7closedlooplambdav.jpg

 

Wideband O2 Sensor

14.2closedlooplambdav.jpg

 

Next I will get some highway riding time in.

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roger 04 rt

For those interested in the most arcane aspects of this project or who might offer some insight:

 

--Both the heater and the sensor are isolated from the case (meaning they are not grounded to the exhaust). It is a 4-wire sensor.

 

--The wire called signal ground seems to have a 100 ohm source impedance (more to be confirmed), and the open circuit voltage is 140 mV. Since the sensor is isolated from the case, this strongly suggests that the entire sensor signal is offset by 140 mV. I have read that the reason for this offset is to allow shorted and open leads to be detected by the ECU--makes sense. Right now I may have the +Signal going negative relative to the -Signal.

 

--I have also read that the ECU builds closed loop adaption tables so I should be doing a full reset of the ECU each time I change an LC-1 parameter.

 

--This signal + side seems, from research, to be routed to a dual comparator circuit that creates a +/- 25mV hysteresis window.

 

Although things are working really well, I am not convinced I am getting a good rich/lean toggle yet so I will probably go and get an oscilloscope so that I can look into all this with a bit more certainty.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider

Morning Roger

 

All 2/3/4 wire 02 sensors I have ever worked with use an isolated ground for both the heater element & sensor low. The exhaust system hasn't been used for 02 low (or grounding) since the old single wire 02's of the 70's. (it never worked real good as rusty exhaust system parts caused low side resistance issues)

 

I'm not sure what you are measuring on the sensor low but keep in mind there should be a very low current (@ around .45-.5 volt) output across the (stock) sensor all the time. The fueling computer uses that as a indication of when the sensor is ready to allow closed loop operation. When the fueling computer sees that constant return voltage it knows the 02 isn't producing it's own voltage yet. Seeing as the 02 never stays at a constant .45-.5 volts output when the fueling computer sees the 02 voltage rise or fall off of that .45-.5 volts it knows the 02 is hot enough to use it's output signal.

 

That is kind of strange 02 signal your graph shows, where are you trapping that signal at?

 

I would sure like to see the Motronic fueling command vs that 02 output signal.

 

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roger 04 rt

Yes, that last chart could be confusing. It isn't a real time plot, just an ordered list of all the o2 voltages measured by the motronic as reported to the gs-911. That lets me know that there isn't an unusual signal pattern. I suppose ideally it would be a straight line.

 

I went back and made some more voltage measurements and sure enough the motronic puts out about 140mV on sensor low. The narrowband sim does go to high impedance and the voltage you mention is there before warming up.

 

Much earlier in the thread you mentioned that a lot who have tried the narrowband output of WB sensors have had mixed results. I can see why. The motronic takes a bunch of stuff into account to consider the sensor good. Also the narrowband sim is coming from what is in effect another computer so electronic noise has to be managed.

 

I'll rent a scope and probably look at lc-1 and stock o2 on a running bike.

 

As an aside, it looks like just a bit of closed loop richening (14.2) is going to yield a very smooth running bike.

 

Happy Holidays and Thanks

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt

A bit more info ...

 

More measurements. It turns out that the sensor does float on a signal 140 mV above ground. And the unwarned-up sensor voltage between sensor + and - is 450 mV. Any O2 sims like mine have to add the 140 mV to the lc-1 or other o2 computer. Although I'm still fine tuning, the bike is running strongly at 14.2:1 (13.7 to 14.7) Closed Loop. Will continue to report the clean-up work. The challenge is getting two sensitive computers, motronic and lc-1 to each love the new environment and for the motronic to be blind to it. I expect to refine:

 

--Wiring length

--Component positions

--Motronic heater emulation

--Electrical noise

--Simulated o2 rise time.

 

In spite of these planned improvements the bike continues to be smooth and powerful through all gears over a much wider RPM range.

Roger

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Peter Parts

Very interesting discussion with data!!!

 

Big bucks were spent sorting out the map - can't be bad. Includes minor trimming for altitude, air temp, and oil temp. I'd say for sport bike riding, map is smarter than the O2 sensor.

 

Yes, Motronic "conserves" .45 volt stoic. So the obvious fix is not wide-band O2 sensor but an op-amp (powered by the sensor heater B+) that scales the O2 output. Simple enough.

 

I can see how a wide-band sensor can work with an advanced ECU to do tricks our Motronics can't. But I can't see any added smarts when it is connected to the old Motronic?

 

I wish all this talk about zero-crossings would go away. Yes, the Motronic output can't guess what spritz duration to use while listening to the sensor and so it is all-or-nothing, but the sensor is simply analog and never anything else, within its time-constant performance.

 

The other thing that really needs data is the continuing debate about just how much time a sport bike spends closed-loop. I think it isn't much for ordinary sporty riding, and that's OK with me. Data?

 

Ben

Edited by Peter Parts

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roger 04 rt

Ben,

I have published additional data where I began this thread on another site, Here . Or here .

 

If there is enough interest I could add the charts here too. Roughly 45% Of the time during a normal ride the bike is closed loop, including to my surprise, during acceleration.

 

The lc-1 that I used has a simulated narrowband output that is connected to the motronic directly. Then I programmed a lower target AFR. It makes a big difference. So the added smarts come from the innovate motorsports lc-1.

 

Roger

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Peter Parts

That Innovate gizmo sounds pretty helpful.

 

How do you know when closed-loop? Even on the highway, best place for surging, you find just 47% closed-loop and "only" 80% with a steady hand. I leave it to others to decide if that sounds more like dirtrider's point of view or mine.

 

Interesting data on the other link. The Motronic is open-loop when you blip the throttle (any idea how much???), But if you hold it steady WHILE accelerating, it will go closed-loop. And, the dumb ECU will be falsely lean: that's why I don't think the feedback Motronic is helpful for sporty riding.

 

You found the Motronic totally zaps some injections (not smart enough to be proportional, just all-or-nothing). The Motronic acts like a switch and the O2 sensor is tied to it, not the other way around as certain authorities have argued in the past.

 

Yes, it is a paradox that these boxers need a richer mixture to burn stoich-like. The old Motronic system with a narrow-band sensor has no way to discern what to do, except to have a scaling-circuit like your gizmo or as I posited above. Or.... if Bosch were to make a 14.2 sensor!

 

Thanks a million. Very glad to have your great work to learn from.

 

Ben... soon 51 seasons

 

 

Edited by Peter Parts

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roger 04 rt

51 seasons, wow, congrats! (I've worn a lot of tread off my tires too.)

 

The way that I know that it's gone closed loop is after examining the data. I'm riding with a GS-911 connected to the service dongle under the seat, and with a small netbook computer strapped behind me. Then I download the data into Excel and go from there.

 

It may also be that 14.4 works and I'll be leaning upward to see how close I can get to 14.7:1.

 

I was looking back at some old R1150RT promotional material. It refers to, and I quote, MOTRONIC with FUEL CUTOFF OVERRUN.

 

All in all I'm not surprised that 14.7:1 wasn't the best place for this model, it's pretty far off the best power mixture. BMW and users tried a lot of things to improve the bike between R1100 and R1200, careful TB balancing, valves, tuning, Lentini's Zero=Zero tune, fooling with CAT Code plugs, and even second spark plugs. There was also the class of BoosterPlugs, Techlusion, etc. While they can help, those solutions don't change Closed Loop.

 

When you look at the R1150RT map that comes with a PowerCommander (it has a Wideband Sensor), it starts with Closed Loop set to 13.8:1! For most PowerC users, my data suggests that its richer closed loop is one of its best fixes. Also, with it you can richen the fuel tables by the amount needed to fix the Motronic maps for E10 (or any other Exx) Ethanol-spiked fuel.

 

The Innovate LC-1 or MXT-L is a good product but NOT plug and play. I will try to write up the easiest way to install and locate it when every thing is done.

 

Fun Stuff ...

 

 

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dirtrider
--

 

Although things are working really well, I am not convinced I am getting a good rich/lean toggle yet so I will probably go and get an oscilloscope so that I can look into all this with a bit more certainty.

 

Morning Roger

 

First off, thanks for taking the time to document & share your wide band project with us. This has been interesting reading & I'm sure an interesting project for you.

 

Yes, I would be interested in seeing that scope data also. From the limited plots I have seen of your 02 as filtered by the LC-1 it looks like there are long periods of the signal going to the extremes with no cross counts for that period. If the Motronoic sees that maxed out 02 signal with no cross counts long enough it will pop open loop & use base mapping trimmed by the sensors. Your LC-1 might be forcing longer open loop periods than the stock narrow band did.

 

Same with your acceleration closed loop periods. From what I have seen using a duty cycle meter on the (stock) 02 the system goes open loop on throttle movement (difficult to use narrow band 02 input on quickly changing load/rpm) but as the TPS signal goes steady but vehicle still accelerating the fueling quickly catches up to the 02 then the system starts reacting to the 02 again.

 

It would be nice to see your same route ridden with the stock 02 sensor feeding your Motronic but the wide band watching your fueling control, then the same route ridden again with no 02 input & operating open loop, then ridden again using your wide band system for fueling control.

 

If you have some riding down time this winter & want to remove your Y pipe let me know as I have some weld in threaded stainless steel 02 sensor "bungs" I machined up for a wide band project I did few years ago. You are welcome to one to weld into your Y pipe so you can add the stock 02 narrow band back into your system along with keeping the wide band in place for A/B comparisons.

 

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TestPilot
From the limited plots I have seen of your 02 as filtered by the LC-1 it looks like there are long periods of the signal going to the extremes with no cross counts for that period.

 

DR,

 

Pardon me for jumping in, but I think you are misreading the GS911 plots of RPM, TPS and Lambda. I believe the Lambda traces are not the voltages from the O2 sensor (real or simulated), but simply an indicator of whether the system is operating open loop (output = 0) or closed loop (output = 1).

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dirtrider

Morning Carl

 

Well that's sure possible. It does look pretty strange for 02 traces.

 

I would like to see a plot of LC-1 output spoofed 02 voltages as well as the cross counts vs injector on times, vs seconds (or some reference time period).

 

Hopefully he can get a scope on it then we can see unmolested signals.

 

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roger 04 rt

D.R.

Karl,

 

Lots of good ideas and comments in the last three posts which I completely understand.

 

Karl is right, the GS911 is reporting 1=Closed Loop, 0=Open Loop. And to make matters worse in that sense, it can only take a sample every 650 milliseconds, or so. There are a couple charts that D.R. asked about that are voltages but they are merely a plot of all the voltages captured. I did that to make sure there were no "holes", that is voltages that were never measured. It is a way to check things in a environment where the sampling rate leads to "undersampling".

 

However, the GS911 has a function that you can use in the garage which shows sequential O2 points. I used that to temporarily fine tune yesterday. On the one hand, I now have the O2 sensor toggling much like it was with the Narrowband or the other hand, I now realize that I could have engineered the installation for less electrical noise and want to do that. Also, I want to see a real time oscilloscope output.

 

In the meantime, I will try and screen capture the sequential plots.

 

I can say with pretty good certainty now that I have a functioning solution. I want to work more to make it the best it can be and am thinking about welding another bung into the exhaust system so I can try some of the ideas I've had and the ideas D.R. mentioned.

 

When I finish, I think this will be a very good tweak for O2 switching point. And as D.R. mentioned, a very fun project.

 

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dirtrider

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Here is that 02 threaded bung I was talking about. If you want to add that 2nd bung into your Y pipe just PM with your address & I will send you one. (a donation to your worthy project)

 

I would like to see a screen dump of your LC-1 induced GS-911 02 real time data. I presume you are getting nice .45 volt crossovers? Without enough cross counts it will drive the Motronic to open loop. If you have that GS-911 captured 02 data maybe you can send that to me in a PM also.

 

I have some GS-911 stock 02 cross-over screen dumps from a good running 1150 twin spark so I would like to compare yours to that.

 

 

 

 

02bung-1.jpg

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Peter Parts

I suppose any fixed AFR, say 14.4, will not be right for all conditions... and certainly not something fixed at 14.7. "14.7" has no particular sanctity except for lab work, and as you say, nobody ever said it results in max power. But when you install an O2 sensor that is what you must get. So neither closed-loop narrow-band nor wide-band PowerC are perfect so long as they have an set set-point, nor is a set map. The same argument applies to air-mass sensing. Some combination (along with maybe a torque sensor!) makes the most sense.

 

The "fuel cut-off" refers to a software switch which cuts fueling when the TPS goes below maybe .4 v. Many folks are unaware of that and when their TPSs are ill-set or they don't work their throttles right, get backfiring. It can be you are getting identifying some injector-off periods as arising from closed-loop operation when in fact they arise from that over-run cut-off????

 

Great thread.

Ben

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roger 04 rt

Afternoon Roger

 

Here is that 02 threaded bung I was talking about. If you want to add that 2nd bung into your Y pipe just PM with your address & I will send you one. (a donation to your worthy project)

 

I would like to see a screen dump of your LC-1 induced GS-911 02 real time data. I presume you are getting nice .45 volt crossovers? Without enough cross counts it will drive the Motronic to open loop. If you have that GS-911 captured 02 data maybe you can send that to me in a PM also.

 

I have some GS-911 stock 02 cross-over screen dumps from a good running 1150 twin spark so I would like to compare yours to that.

 

Hi D.R., That's a generous offer. A bung came with the LC-1, but maybe not as well made as the one in the photo. For now, I'm going to skip the step of adding the bung. What I will do in the coming week or two is get that 'scope so I can see exactly what each sensor does. Signal quality is important to me. I'm also thinking that an RC low pass filter may get the characteristics to be more like the stock sensor, I'll have to think more about that, maybe something with a 50 mS rise time.

 

It took some experimenting to get it best for the present wiring, etc. but after adjusting the low voltage and the high voltage (accomodating the O2 low offset of 140 mV), plus adjusting the low lambda and high lambda (0.965/0.975 to get a sharp enough switch point), and setting the LC-1 update frequency--choices of none, 1/12 sec, 1/6 sec, 1/3 sec), I am getting good reliable crossings, stable high and low voltage switching, and good switch through 450 mV--plot to come later.

 

I suppose any fixed AFR, say 14.4, will not be right for all conditions... and certainly not something fixed at 14.7. "14.7" has no particular sanctity except for lab work, and as you say, nobody ever said it results in max power. But when you install an O2 sensor that is what you must get. So neither closed-loop narrow-band nor wide-band PowerC are perfect so long as they have an set set-point, nor is a set map. The same argument applies to air-mass sensing. Some combination (along with maybe a torque sensor!) makes the most sense.

 

The "fuel cut-off" refers to a software switch which cuts fueling when the TPS goes below maybe .4 v. Many folks are unaware of that and when their TPSs are ill-set or they don't work their throttles right, get backfiring. It can be you are getting identifying some injector-off periods as arising from closed-loop operation when in fact they arise from that over-run cut-off????

 

Great thread.

Ben

 

My objective is simply to find the highest Lambda less than 1.0 (AFR 14.7:1 for gas), that results in a motorcycle that performs as well after it's warmed up as before. In particular, no feeling of being "held back" just as it is shifted. A benefit I'm finding is that I have a bike with much more responsiveness at RPMs between idle at 3500 RPM. Something in the Lambda = 0.96 to 0.98 is looking like it will do that. Running with a switch point of 0.97 is giving excellent results no.

 

Understand about the fuel overrun cutoff. You are right, it is definitely happening on rapid deceleration with the throttle at or near zero. I did a test to see what would happen with the cold-start lever up--it will still go into fuel overrun cuttoff mode and shut off the injectors.

 

Thank you both for the detailed comments.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt

In the photos below are the settings for the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Sensor that I used on my R1150RT to drive the stock, narrowband O2 sensor inputs to the Motronic. To summarize the project:

 

--I wanted to smooth out the performance of my motorcycle at low RPMs and remove all sense of hesitation in the 2000 to 4000 RPM band, even though the bike had already been fully tuned and balanced and didn't seem to have any surging.

 

--My test runs with the GS-911 showed that the R1150 spends almost half its time Closed Loop, meaning using the O2 sensor and toggling the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) just above and just below 14.7:1. This is a leaner mixture than the so-called Best Power mixture for most engines, and I felt it likely the cause of a "holding back" or lean-ness that I felt in the 2000 to 4000 range.

 

--I wanted to allow the Motronic to operate the bike as it was designed to do, including Closed Loop with an O2 sensor and CAT.

 

--I replaced the stock O2 sensor which only allows Closed Loop AFR of 14.7:1 (gasoline) with a Wideband sensor who's AFR could be programmed to something between 13.0:1 and 15.0:1 so that I could find an AFR near 14.7:1 at which the bike ran its best. The product I chose is the Innovate Motorsports LC-1.

 

At this point using a target AFR of 14.4:1 (actually Lambda = 0.97), the project seems successful. Now the bike seems smooth and powerful from 1,500 RPM to 6,000 RPM--no surge, no hesitation, no stumbling, no "holding back". I can easily drive local roads in 5th gear and now regularly run RPMs around town between 2,500 and 3,500.

 

The installation is complete and stable but the LC-1 is not a Plug 'n Play solution. You have to connect it to power and ground, and have to connect it to the narrowband input wires of the stock O2 sensor. I did it quickly and left 5' of cable attached to the LC-1. I will cut that back, reroute the wires and check noise levels with an oscilloscope to determine the best wire routing. I will also rethink where the LC-1 (weatherproof) gets located.

 

Below are some screenshots of the LC-1 software and also one from the GS-911 showing its reports of how the Motronic sees the voltage toggling. It looks pretty good.

 

Thanks to everyone for the comments and support.

Happy Riding in the New Year,

RB

 

o2toggle1.jpg

 

lc11.jpg

 

lc12.jpg

 

lc14.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Peter Parts

The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.

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roger 04 rt
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.

 

Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.

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Peter Parts
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.

 

Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.

 

As I understand it, the over-run shut-off is tied to TPS voltage. Couldn't be the Hall sensor speed, as least as the primary determinant.

 

I've never seen a definitive opinion about the voltage, but I suppose it is around .42 volts (pretty close to tight closed), which provides some slack for mis-adjusted TPSs. Maybe dirtrider knows for sure.

 

Another factor, a human factor, not introduced so far is just how often and how far riders jiggle their throttles (which opens the loop, if the jiggle is big enough... nobody know how big is big enough). Any time I've tried to judge on, say ordinary highway riding, it is like 8-12 times a minute. Of course, I have a throttle counter-force spring, so my throttle is vastly more fluid than everybody elses and I can smoothly roll-in even fine-tuned throttle corrections. (And my hand doesn't tire for a long time.)

 

In light of all your work and this discussion, what is your latest opinion on how and when and how much the Motronic goes into closed-loop?

 

Ben

Edited by Peter Parts

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roger 04 rt
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.

 

Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.

T

As I understand it, the over-run shut-off is tied to TPS voltage. Couldn't be the Hall sensor speed, as least as the primary determinant.

 

I've never seen a definitive opinion about the voltage, but I suppose it is around .42 volts (pretty close to tight closed), which provides some slack for mis-adjusted TPSs. Maybe dirtrider knows for sure.

 

Another factor, a human factor, not introduced so far is just how often and how far riders jiggle their throttles (which opens the loop, if the jiggle is big enough... nobody know how big is big enough). Any time I've tried to judge on, say ordinary highway riding, it is like 8-12 times a minute. Of course, I have a throttle counter-force spring, so my throttle is vastly more fluid than everybody elses and I can smoothly roll-in even fine-tuned throttle corrections. (And my hand doesn't tire for a long time.)

 

In light of all your work and this discussion, what is your latest opinion on how and when and how much the Motronic goes into closed-loop?

 

Ben

 

 

I would class myself as an enthusiastic rider. I like shifting up and down on corners, hills and for speed changes--part of the fun of riding. On the highway, other than when I am logging data to see what will happen if I lock the throttle, I am constantly adjusting to the conditions--the roads are busy around here.

 

With those provisos, the data I took on the narrowband sensor and then again with the LC-1 shows that my bikeold closed loop 40-50% on local roads and 50-60% on the highway. Enough so that it is a big part of the driveability equation.

 

Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.

 

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Peter Parts

Thanks for loop update.

 

From my observations (and from some acquaintance with feedback theory), there's also a period of hunting towards the set-point, once the ECU decides it wants to try closed-loop operation.

 

Big question about just what is learned by the ECU. For sure, the anchor voltages of the TPS so the ECU can scale it. But quite a mystery what else. Moto One in Australia, my favorite writer, thinks there is a lot recorded. I doubt it but have no way of knowing. Kind of stupid and penny-pinching not to have non-flamable memory.

 

Ben

Edited by Peter Parts

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TestPilot
Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.

 

I'm not sure if the MA 2.4 Motronic in your bike stores adaptation values (otherwise known as long term fuel trim) or not. The GS911 web site states that checking and resetting adaptation values for R1200s will be a feature available in future software releases, but doesn't mention the same for the R1150s.

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roger 04 rt
Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.

 

I'm not sure if the MA 2.4 Motronic in your bike stores adaptation values (otherwise known as long term fuel trim) or not. The GS911 web site states that checking and resetting adaptation values for R1200s will be a feature available in future software releases, but doesn't mention the same for the R1150s.

 

Thanks for the hint. Im going to drop hexcode.za a line. Also the yahoo BoschDME group.

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning Roger

 

Thanks for the follow up.

 

That is an interesting 02 plot. Any idea what the time factor is? Also what was your adjusted fuel air ratio at the time of that data trap?

 

The cross counts look fairly decent (but still just a bit odd looking compared to stock) as well as the voltages staying within the mid usable range.

 

That LC-1 must have some very unique programming to use a wide band input but still allow the 02 voltage/crossovers to stay within the range the Motronic can utilize it, maintain adequate cross counts to keep the Motronic from ignoring it, & somehow keep the Motonic from simply chasing the 02 output off to one side of .45 volts therefore nullifying the 02 as a fueling control input.

 

It would be interesting to see the fuel injector commanded fueling plotted against the cross count swings. My guess is that the LC-1 is artificially producing the cross counts to keep the fueling computer happy then using the wide band input to somehow skew the 02 output signal's time at voltage to achieve the fueling offset.

 

It looks like the LC-1 has been able to find a way around the pitfalls of using things like voltage generators or op amps by artificially inducing "believable" cross counts that fool the fueling computer into thinking it is in response to it's own fueling command.

 

That last screen shot shown (advanced analog out setting). (interesting)-- Does that allow you to adjust the warmup output voltage as seen by the fueling computer? That's one of the many problems with using 02 voltage generators or op amps that pull the pre 02 warm up voltage off the .45 null voltage so the fueling computer tries to fuel to a cold unresponsive 02 sensor allowing the engine to run like crap during late stage cold warm up.

 

I'm also wondering how much your LC-1 adjusted fueling offset is effecting the amount of time the system is staying in closed loop during a normal ride. If you ever get a dedicated ride course set up to minimize the variables on a test ride it would be interesting to see if setting the fuel/air ratio back to 14.7:1 increases the time the thing stays in closed loop operation.

 

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roger 04 rt
Morning Roger

 

That is an interesting 02 plot. Any idea what the time factor is? I don't know exactly the manufacturer doesn't say but it is faster than 650 mS, I estimate every 200 to 300 mS for a new point. Also what was your adjusted fuel air ratio at the time of that data trap? Lambda was toggling at 0.965 and 0.975 so using 0.97 translates to 14.25 for gasoline or 13.7 for E10.

 

The cross counts look fairly decent (but still just a bit odd looking compared to stock slight oddness probably due to sampling interval and non-coherence of sample times) as well as the voltages staying within the mid usable range. According to the GS-911 site, this is well within bounds but I want to get a scope on it to get a realtime view and perfect it.

 

That LC-1 must have some very unique programming to use a wide band input but still allow the 02 voltage/crossovers to stay within the range the Motronic can utilize it, maintain adequate cross counts to keep the Motronic from ignoring it, & somehow keep the Motonic from simply chasing the 02 output off to one side of .45 volts therefore nullifying the 02 as a fueling control input.The LC-1 has two Analog Outputs that you can program. I have one programmed to have high and low voltages that simulate the stock sensor and then I program the voltage to stay at the high number until Lambda = 0.965 then it switches to the low voltage. After staying low for as long is the Motronic wants it too, the Motronic then starts ramping the fuel until Lambda reaches 0.975 at which time the voltage rises again. About like a stock sensor.

 

It would be interesting to see the fuel injector commanded fueling plotted against the cross count swings. My guess is that the LC-1 is artificially producing the cross counts to keep the fueling computer happy then using the wide band input to somehow skew the 02 output signal's time at voltage to achieve the fueling offset. Not artifically producing cross counts, just staying in the voltage range for the Lambdas I mentioned above.

 

It looks like the LC-1 has been able to find a way around the pitfalls of using things like voltage generators or op amps by artificially inducing "believable" cross counts that fool the fueling computer into thinking it is in response to it's own fueling command.

 

That last screen shot shown (advanced analog out setting). (interesting)-- Does that allow you to adjust the warmup output voltage as seen by the fueling computer? Yes it does. However what I set it to is High Impedance. In that case the Motronic pulls the voltage between high and low to 0.45 volts, which I have confirmed by measurement and just what it wants to see.That's one of the many problems with using 02 voltage generators or op amps that pull the pre 02 warm up voltage off the .45 null voltage so the fueling computer tries to fuel to a cold unresponsive 02 sensor allowing the engine to run like crap during late stage cold warm up. I have many sets of before and after data, and the bike warms up producing data just the way it used to. Stays out of closed loop until about 140F and then goes closed loop under the appropriate conditions.

 

I'm also wondering how much your LC-1 adjusted fueling offset is effecting the amount of time the system is staying in closed loop during a normal ride. I have a lot if before and after ride data. It is pretty much just the same after as before. That was very important to me as I want the Motronic operating like nothing has changed. I just wanted the Motronic to have a "narrowband-type" input that changed under my programming.If you ever get a dedicated ride course set up to minimize the variables on a test ride it would be interesting to see if setting the fuel/air ratio back to 14.7:1 increases the time the thing stays in closed loop operation. I tried that briefly and it seems to be the same before and after. I haven't written much about it but between lambda=.94 and lambda=.97 the bike runs very well. I have also gone above lambda=1 and guess what? It starts to feel like it's running lean!

Morning DR,

 

Some answers to your questions are above. Also, here is a link to GS-911 Plots from the manufacturer.

 

There are many positive implications to this project. It is possible that a Lambda range could be found that kept the AFR rich enough to run really well but with a lean period that let O2 reaccumulate in the catalytic converter.

 

Also, I mentioned that there are two analog outputs. I could use one for idle and the other for everything else. Or I could combine the two in a summing network to get different shape curves. The more questions I answer for myself, the more experiments I think of.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt

Here are some update comments to the plots.

 

 

 

Plots and Comments:

 

The is the plot of the GS-911 toggling O2 around the setting of Lambda=0.97 or AFR 14.2:1. It goes solidly and regularly above and below the Motronic switching levels and produced a steady stream of cross-counts.

o2toggle1.jpg

 

This is the LC-1 first setup page. I left Stoichiometric at 14.7 (rather than adjust to 14.13 of E10 fuel) since it's easier to think in those terms. It only affects the display of operation, not the settings.

lc11.jpg

 

Here are the voltage and Lambda settings that created the best O2 toggling waveform. They take into account a 140mV low side offset that I discovered in the Motronic, and produce a sharp change from Lambda=0.965 to 0.975.

lc12.jpg

 

I selected updating 12 times per second as a way to keep the Motronic from over-responding to the very sensitive LC-1.

lc14.jpg

 

 

Here are some usual plots with stock O2 sensors according to the GS-911 manufacturer. You can see that the usual plots are a bit jagged. This is because the GS-911 doesn't produce realtime data points, just every 200mS or so. If you go their site they also show some others, including bad plots.: http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda

 

s1000rr_lambdavoltage1.png

 

hp2_lambdav2.png

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt

Today I got a chance to pull the fairings, lift the tank and disconnect the O2 Sensor input to the Motronic. My goal was to see what the Open Loop Air Fuel Ratios (AFR) for the Motronic 2.4 looked like.

 

As a reminder, I have a Wideband LC-1 installed in place of the normal Narrowband O2 sensor. Usually it is set to 14.2:1, so when the motorcycle goes closed loop, I can't tell what the Motronic would do on its own, with the O2 Sensor disconnected.

 

I also pulled the Pink CAT Code Plug and looked at those results as well.

 

Procedure:

1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor

2) Disconnect BoosterPlug

3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

 

Results:

From Cold Engine (40F) to Warm Engine (140F-ish): AFR Range 13:1 to 14.7:1

Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.5:1 to 15.2:1

 

Comments: There was no sign of a rich Limp Home Mode. Without O2 Sensor connected, mixtures got leaner than 14.7:1.

 

Next Test:

1)Pulled Pink CAT Code Plug

2)No BoosterPlug

3)O2 Sensor Disconnected

4)Motronic Reset

 

Results:

Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.7:1 to 15.5:1.

 

Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.

 

Summary:

It looks to me like the stock fuel tables in the cruise range for the Motronic MA 2.4 are centered around 14.7:1 and get leaner somewhere between 2,500 and 4,000 RPM depending on TPS. I often saw AFR readings in the low 15s.

 

It may be that without the O2 sensor installed, and with the E10 Premium fuel I'm running, the Motronic stock fuel tables result in leaner than 14.7:1.

 

As you can guess, I will be reconnecting the LC-1, reprogramming my Closed Loop O2 to 14:2:1 and reconnecting the BoosterPlug for Open Loop enrichment.

 

PS: I broke a tab on one of the fairings in my rush to open the bike. Any suggestions for how to glue to reattach a piece to the fairing (in the cylinder head area)?

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dirtrider

Evening Roger

 

Thanks for the data update. (good looking cross counts for that much offset)

 

Years ago when I was playing with CCP's on the 1150 (single spark) different CCPs changed the spark timing trim so maybe that had some effect on your cylinder burn.

 

 

Can you post a picture of the broken tab as that will help us understand the best repair for that particular tab.

 

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roger 04 rt
Evening Roger

 

Thanks for the data update. (good looking cross counts for that much offset)

 

Years ago when I was playing with CCP's on the 1150 (single spark) different CCPs changed the spark timing trim so maybe that had some effect on your cylinder burn.

 

 

Can you post a picture of the broken tab as that will help us understand the best repair for that particular tab.

 

Thank you. Yes, I'll post a couple pictures tomorrow.

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roger 04 rt

Ran the same Open Loop tests with the BoosterPlug installed, as expected, about a 6% richer mixture across the board.

 

Procedure:

1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor

2) Connect BoosterPlug

3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

 

Results:

Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 13.5:1 to 14.5:1

 

Open Loop, with the BoosterPlug installed, the motorcycle seemed to run strong in all gears and modes (accel, cruise, decel), much better behaved than with stock Narrowband O2.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Peter Parts

More great data. Thanks.

 

Some first thoughts.

 

Not quite correct to talk about the maps as aiming for say, 14.7. The maps have their spritz durations but your measured A/F also depends on other factors which may or may not be close to the Factory parameters.

 

Zero crossings in a feedback system are not an essential or even meaningful property of the system but just a consequence of lots of other factors.

 

Booster Plugs and other foolers are a strange approach. Might be OK in some places that have very steady temperatures.

 

Ben

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big-t
Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.

 

 

Interesting.Back a number of years ago I almost holed a piston on my 1100RT. I was experimenting and had cut the signal wire from the o2 and had it connected to a cheap A/F ratio meter and had removed the Cat code plug.

 

We were on a group ride and really hammering it on a uphill mountain run when I noticed the A/F was getting very lean and at one point went completely off the lean side.

 

I backed off and let everybody pass and took it easy on the way home,where I pulled the plugs and found aluminum flecking on them.Looking at the piston tops revealed surface blistering on the piston tops. :P

 

Put the Cat code plug back in and never had the same problem.I would imagine normal riding would not have been an issue,but pushing it to the extremes puts it outside of the safe envelope

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