RT idle/throttle problem

[jsmith]

Kritou, do you mean secondary spark plug? If so, the spark plugs have been changed a few times without any effect.

 

Jim

[Don_Eilenberger]

Jim,

 

Actually IIRC - it's the starboard side cylinder. Surprised me too.. would have thought the port side was #1. Of course I could be all wet on this, but I remember finding the info somewhere when I was testing and replacing my O2 sensor.

 

BTW - be easy enough to test. Disconnect one and see which signal goes away. The bike should continue running on the default fuel map.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Don_Eilenberger

[David R]

If you still have the GS911, just unhook one sensor. It will show immediatly which one is not reporting with a flat 4.5 volt or 0 volt line.

 

David

[jsmith]

Thanks again, Don. Sounds like someone's a boater.

 

Jim

[roger 04 rt]

I post a lot in the Oilhead forum and make extensive use of my GS-911. The O2 plot on cylinder 1 doesn't look good but I'm not convinced it's a problem.

 

It is possible to log all the 911 data to an Excel CSV file. Quite often when I've got a performance question I'll set it up for logging and ride with a small notebook PC in the case or strapped to the seat. Then you can dissect the data when you get back.

 

If you collect a file I'd be happy to look at it. If you look about halfway down this page, there's an example of using the GS-911 that way: Moving Idle. PM me if I can help.

[jsmith]

I've captured data while riding before, but never when I was experiencing the problem. Going for a short ride will rarely trigger the rough idle/stall. I typically need to ride a few hours without turning off the ignition. When it happened this time, I just left the bike idling while I connected the GS-911 for the data sample. All of the data samples where I did not experience the problem show both cylinder 1 and 2 looking like cylinder 2 in the image I posted earlier. This is part of what led me to believe it was the O2 sensor.

 

Jim

[jsmith]

If you still have the GS911, just unhook one sensor. It will show immediatly which one is not reporting with a flat 4.5 volt or 0 volt line.

 

Thanks David. I should have thought of this.

 

Jim

[roger 04 rt]

I went back and looked at the plot. I c an see why you believe it's the sensor. Something is going on there. As someone suggested, swapping the sensors side to side would be a good next step.

 

How much is a replacement O2 sensor for your bike?

[jsmith]

$240 new, but there are used options. I didn't expect it to be cheap, but this was still more than I thought.

 

Jim

[Don_Eilenberger]

$240 new, but there are used options. I didn't expect it to be cheap, but this was still more than I thought.

 

Jim

Jim, I assume you won the Ebay auction I sent you? If not - there are more available on Ebay at what I'd consider a reasonable price..

 

I have this habit of picking up "spares" when the prices are just too good on eBay. Got an entire spare wiring harness with O2 sensors for $100 that way, just won a pair of complete throttle bodies (with injectors and idle steppers and intake tubes) for way cheap too. Coils were another eBay bargain early on. I even picked up an entire set of ECU/ZFE modules, although since those are coded to the VIN# they're pretty much useless..

 

Having the spare parts invokes Eilenberger's Law of Spares: "You'll never need what you have.."

 

Happy New Year all!

[w2ge]

Awesome Don.. Now I know where to go to!

 

You are Da' man! ;-)

[David R]

An o2 sensor for a car is $60.00 to $125.00. The last time I did an o2 sensor on a BMW car it looked EXACTLY like the one on my 00RT. Same plug and all. Just a shorter pigtail.

 

The o2 sensor is reporting slowly and lower voltage on both sides, lean and rich. Shows its not working like it should.

 

If something else was causing the problem, the sensor would report all close to 0v or close to 1v or a flat line at .45 volts.

 

Slow and Lazy is what I would call it.

 

David

[roger 04 rt]

$240 new, but there are used options. I didn't expect it to be cheap, but this was still more than I thought.

 

Jim

 

I think this universal sensor from Bosch would work for $79 Bosch Universal O2.

 

[Guest Kakugo]

$240 new, but there are used options. I didn't expect it to be cheap, but this was still more than I thought.

 

Jim

 

When the O2 sensor on my old Honda car went south of the border, I was quoted 400€ for the part (labor excluded). Sheer insanity.

A little search discovered the part is made by NTK and an NTK branded O2 sensor was just 1/4 of the Honda spare.

 

I suggest you look into NTK O2 sensors. They tend to be a tad more expensive than the Bosch ones but also last longer. Code for the O2 sensor used on the RT is OZA630-BM1

[WestyLancs]

Hi John, sorry it's not sorted yet.

When I was trying to sort my similar issue out, prior to replacing

the steppers, I had replaced both O2 sensors at approx £65 each in 2011.

If you can find a stockist locally, I'm using NTK (NGK) Lambda

sensors ref

OZA630-BM1

They're currently available here in the UK at £59 each ($95 Can) plus postage,

and are a 10 minute straight plug in, swap out.

 

Best of luck with it.

Happy New Year, and hope it's the one you get it sorted.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2013 by WestyLancs

[jsmith]

Thanks again for all the help. I haven't had a chance to order a new sensor yet, but will next week. Does the NTK sensor screw into the same slot as the OEM one, and plug into the CANBUS? Just want to be sure it won't report differently into the ECU and cause other problems.

 

Jim

[David R]

The vender would not steer you wrong.

 

David

[WestyLancs]

Jim (sorry not John as my previous - DOH!!)

The NTK sensor that's referenced in both my, and Kakugo's posts

is a straight swap. Same fitment in the exhaust, and, more important

exactly the same oem plug into the harness. If I recall, I didn't even

need to remove any panels to swap them.

And, once fitted, the GS-911 reads them just the same.

[jsmith]

I have been looking for this NTK O2 sensor for a couple days, and it only appears to be available in the UK. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was hoping to find it a little closer. I can't find anyplace in North America that sells it. Even the ones on eBay are sourced from the UK. Am I missing something here or is the UK the go-to place for the worlds O2 sensor needs?

 

Jim

[roger 04 rt]

I think this universal sensor from Bosch would work for $79 Bosch Universal O2.

 

Why not just use this sensor?

Edited January 7, 2013 by roger 04 rt

[jsmith]

Hey Roger. I looked at that one, but I think I would need to wire it to the existing plug. Was hoping for something more plug-and-play. As far as I can tell, the only options for that are the BMW and NTK sensors.

 

Jim

[WestyLancs]

You could try this site

 

http://www.sparkplugsrus.com/shop/index.cgi?show=NTK/NGK-OZA630-BM1-Lambda-sensor

 

No affiliation, but they do show as shipping worldwide for

£15 ($25 ish Canadian) Brings the cost in at approx $125 inc

shipping for the NTK plug and play sensor.

Way cheaper than the $225 or so you've been quoted.

[jsmith]

Thanks Ian. I did look at that one, but its 15 pounds to ship to Canada, so the eBay one is still 8 pounds less. Thanks for looking out for me!

 

Jim

[roger 04 rt]

Hey Roger. I looked at that one, but I think I would need to wire it to the existing plug. Was hoping for something more plug-and-play. As far as I can tell, the only options for that are the BMW and NTK sensors.

 

Jim

 

Understood, but it does come with quite a good connector kit to do that.

[RTMarcy]

Sorry to revive a completely dead thread but I thought it was the best plan of action as my bike is suffering the exact same problem and I had given up hope of finding the cause 

 

 

When riding sedately, my 2006 R1200rt 46k miles, locally it exhibits no problems at all

 

When riding further afield or aggressively the bike will randomly/occasionally stall when coming to a stop at junctions.....without touching the ignition key the bike will crank over on the starter but will only idle if I maintain a cracked throttle. Once cooled down the bike acts normally again 

 

 

Items I've checked so far with the aim of not "throwing money" at it in vein

 

* Replaced both lower ignition coils (low mileage used items)

* Removed and cleaned the TPS (tested fine with a multimeter and no corrosion)

* Removed both stepper motors and checked they cycle in and out with the ignition key. Also checked the pintle seat was clean......both retracted with the key off, when putting the key on both steppers lowered the pintle to its full extent and then slightly returned. I tested each unit around ten times with both acting in exactly the same manner. The pintle did not fly off as some seem to do

 

Previous owner had the spark plugs and FPC replaced 18mths ago

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, RTMarcy said:

Sorry to revive a completely dead thread but I thought it was the best plan of action as my bike is suffering the exact same problem and I had given up hope of finding the cause 

 

 

When riding sedately, my 2006 R1200rt 46k miles, locally it exhibits no problems at all

 

When riding further afield or aggressively the bike will randomly/occasionally stall when coming to a stop at junctions.....without touching the ignition key the bike will crank over on the starter but will only idle if I maintain a cracked throttle. Once cooled down the bike acts normally again 

 

 

Items I've checked so far with the aim of not "throwing money" at it in vein

 

* Replaced both lower ignition coils (low mileage used items)

* Removed and cleaned the TPS (tested fine with a multimeter and no corrosion)

* Removed both stepper motors and checked they cycle in and out with the ignition key. Also checked the pintle seat was clean......both retracted with the key off, when putting the key on both steppers lowered the pintle to its full extent and then slightly returned. I tested each unit around ten times with both acting in exactly the same manner. The pintle did not fly off as some seem to do

 

Previous owner had the spark plugs and FPC replaced 18mths ago

 

Afternoon RTMarcy

 

Still sounds somewhat like a stepper getting lost (you seem to have a number of the symptoms of that problem).

 

You say-- without touching the ignition key the bike will crank over on the starter but will only idle if I maintain a cracked throttle. Once cooled down the bike acts normally again-- That will not automatically re-home a  lost stepper.  The shut-down period with key-off THEN an engine restart will re-home the steppers.

 

What happens if after the stall you turn  KEY-OFF for a couple of seconds, THEN turn key back on, wait an additional couple of seconds,  THEN re-start the engine?????

This WILL re-home the steppers so if your problem temporarily goes away after the key-off/ key-on re-start that should yea or neigh the steppers as the cause.

 

Just because a stepper tracks a time or two, or travels  in & out, or retracts is no real measure on IF one can get lost, or is getting lost.  You really have no measure of IF the stepper pintles are actually tracking to their ACTUAL BMS-K-commanded step counts.

 

If you can prove  that it isn't a stepper getting lost then next thing I would check is for proper o2 sensor feed back as it gets near the stalling time-frame. (maybe ride a few times with o2 sensors disconnected as a test).

 

A flaky TPS sensor could also cause a similar stalling but that would usually also show up as poor engine running at other conditions, not just the stalling issue.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RTMarcy]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon RTMarcy

 

Still sounds somewhat like a stepper getting lost (you seem to have a number of the symptoms of that problem).

 

You say-- without touching the ignition key the bike will crank over on the starter but will only idle if I maintain a cracked throttle. Once cooled down the bike acts normally again-- That will not automatically re-home a  lost stepper.  The shut-down period with key-off THEN an engine restart will re-home the steppers.

 

What happens if after the stall you turn  KEY-OFF for a couple of seconds, THEN turn key back on, wait an additional couple of seconds,  THEN re-start the engine?????

This WILL re-home the steppers so if your problem temporarily goes away after the key-off/ key-on re-start that should yea or neigh the steppers as the cause.

 

Just because a stepper tracks a time or two, or travels  in & out, or retracts is no real measure on IF one can get lost, or is getting lost.  You really have no measure of IF the stepper pintles are actually tracking to their ACTUAL BMS-K-commanded step counts.

 

If you can prove  that it isn't a stepper getting lost then next thing I would check is for proper o2 sensor feed back as it gets near the stalling time-frame. (maybe ride a few times with o2 sensors disconnected as a test).

 

A flaky TPS sensor could also cause a similar stalling but that would usually also show up as poor engine running at other conditions, not just the stalling issue.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your quick and informative reply

 

It wouldn't be easy to turn off the ignition key and let the steppers reset when the problem has occured generally as I'm panicking of vehicles near me crashing into me whilst I have no power. That said I will try it

 

Upon contemplation I suppose "it works normally once it's cooled down" could actually be because I've cycled the ignition

 

 

I endeavour to get to the bottom of the cause as it's still a good bike if a little old. Unsure if the next step should be to buy one new stepper or a Gs911 for data monitoring 

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, RTMarcy said:

Thank you for your quick and informative reply

 

It wouldn't be easy to turn off the ignition key and let the steppers reset when the problem has occured generally as I'm panicking of vehicles near me crashing into me whilst I have no power. That said I will try it

 

Upon contemplation I suppose "it works normally once it's cooled down" could actually be because I've cycled the ignition

 

 

I endeavour to get to the bottom of the cause as it's still a good bike if a little old. Unsure if the next step should be to buy one new stepper or a Gs911 for data monitoring 

 

Afternoon RTMarcy

 

While it always good to have a GS-911 the GS-911 struggles with CORRECT stepper pintle position reporting as all the GS-911 can show is last stepper COMMANDED pintle position, not pintle ACTUAL position.   

 

The BMW steppers are just 4 wire control so there is no way for either stepper to show it's actual pintle position, the BMS-K only knows were the pintle IS based on where it was commanded last. If the pintle gets lost (skips a step or two while in  operation)   the BMS-K then has no idea on where the pintle actually is, it only knows where it was commanded  to go last.

 

They almost always strip in the longer direction so in most cases the pintle is closed more than the computer thinks so you then get the stall on dropped throttle  due to less idle air by-pass flow than was commanded. 

[RTMarcy]

Have ordered a new stepper motor, will fit it to alternate cylinders and see if i can pinpoint the faulty unit......hopefully both aren't knackered but potentially could be