Is bobs bmw telling me the truth (re clutch plate)

[bmweerman]

I've been watching Ted's excellent spline lube video and have decided to do the whole deal including the friction plate replacement. Just got off the phone with bobs bmw (whom I use often) and the guy practically wouldn't sell me the part insisting I needed to buy the whole kit. He said if I just replaced the friction plate I'd have to do the job over in 2k miles or so. That is not the impression I got from Ted's video!

 

Is this true or is he just trying to get 3x more money from me?

 

TIA

 

Cameron

[ShovelStrokeEd]

For your bike, you're better off buying the kit and be done with it. BMW made some changes/upgrades to the clutch assembly and your's will benefit from the improvements. I would tend to think that if your gonna put 15 or so hours of labor into the thing, your gonna want the assurance of everything in there being brand new. This is not the time to quibble over a couple of hundred bucks.

 

YMMV

[bmweerman]

This is not the time to quibble over a couple of hundred bucks.

 

Unfortunately it is...if I have to pop for the whole thing I will, but right at the moment, I'm trying to keep the bike in shape and the fam in milk and cookies.

 

Any second opinions?

[SC_Jack]

I agree with Ed.

[Edgar]

Unfortunately there is not enough information from your post to help you out. What were the symptoms, how many miles, are you sure that the issue is a worn friction plate and not a seal leaking (Main or Trany)?

 

I’ve replace more than a couple of clutches on BMW’s and have been just fine replacing the friction plate. I have also replaced all 16 parts in the kit (4 clutch parts, 6 bolts and 6 washers) just to insure that I didn’t have to go in there again in the near future. There is a $200 dollar difference in the two procedures, but if it slips again you’ll kick yourself.

 

In general, if you find that the friction plate is trashed because of a seal leaking then you’re probably OK to change the friction plate only

 

If you’ve never done the work before the clutch alignment tool give you a lot of confidence and insures that that portion of the job is done right.

 

Regardless of the path you choose buy 6 new bolts.

[bmweerman]

The symptoms started as...clutch slipping in 5th gear at high rpms...now slowing starting to slip in lower gears at lower rpms...

 

From my understanding, which is admittedly limited, that is the classic failure pattern of a friction plate. Is that correct. The bike has 51k miles on it.

 

And, where do I get a clucth alignment tool?

 

Thanks for all the input...more is welcome

[Edgar]

Your clutch does sound like the classic symptom of a worn friction plate. You probably will do just fine replacing the friction plate. But time will tell.

 

The clutch alignment tool is a standard tool from BMW ~$37, but there might be other ones out there. It is an 8” piece of round solid stock that is the same diameter as the clutch splines with a protrusion that is the same size as the pushrod. It insures that the clutch is aligned correctly with respect to the holes for a fast bolt up. You can fabricate your own, or beg or borrow one if necessary. You can do without the tool and use the trany as your guide, but that turns a 20 min bolt up job into a 2-hour ordeal.

 

I found it quite helpful to buy 3 longer bolts of the same metric thread pitch, with double nuts from a hardware store, to assist with bolting on the clutch assembly. With the clutch spring unsprung the new clutch bolts aren’t quite long enough to get started.

 

The Haines shows the tool in the pictures.

 

Bob’s is doing the right thing by presenting the kit option because if you needed the extra parts and weren’t offered the “opportunity” to buy ‘em you would not be happy with them.

 

Chicago BMW does offer 20% off on BMW parts.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The clutch alignment tool is a standard tool from BMW ~$37, but there might be other ones out there.

 

Right now Shawn (Lone_RT_Rider) has mine. It's basically just an aluminum cylinder a couple inches long. OD fits inside the clutch splines, ID fits around the pushrod. it's used *with* the pushrod inside it the same way that the BMW centering tool (all by itself) is used. If you've got some scrap aluminum and access to a lathe, you can make one for pennies.

 

PM him and maybe he can get you the dimensions.

 

NOTE: I think the 1150 RT has different dimensions.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

I understand budgetary concerns, however, if I were going to fund myself that deep into my RT, I would replace/rebuild anything that might be suspect, so I didn't have to get in there again for as long as possible. (Un)Fortunately, the work done on my clutch was warranty, and sqeezed into a busy shop several thousand miles from home. I didn't feel comfortable asking them to do extra work (or spend extra cash) when I was already upsetting their entire schedule. SHAMELESS PLUG, NO AFFILIATION: Hammersley BMW customer service rocks!

 

I usually start collecting parts a few months in advance- as they fit into the budget, then pick a date to do the work.

 

The biggest concern is whether you want to open it all back up in the event that there is more work to be done a few thousand miles down the road, when it could have been averted by spending a few more dollars (or at least waiting until spending the $$ wouldn't hurt so bad.)

[Jim Moore]

I found it quite helpful to buy 3 longer bolts of the same metric thread pitch, with double nuts from a hardware store, to assist with bolting on the clutch assembly. With the clutch spring unsprung the new clutch bolts aren’t quite long enough to get started.

Now that's slick.

[RFW]

I've been watching Ted's excellent spline lube video and have decided to do the whole deal including the friction plate replacement. Just got off the phone with bobs bmw (whom I use often) and the guy practically wouldn't sell me the part insisting I needed to buy the whole kit. He said if I just replaced the friction plate I'd have to do the job over in 2k miles or so. That is not the impression I got from Ted's video!

 

Is this true or is he just trying to get 3x more money from me?

 

In 2K miles?? Complete BS.

 

Why is it that people think that although a clutch works perfectly before replacing the friction disk, the moment that you replace the friction disk you will run into trouble if the steel driving plates are not also replaced?

 

Rubbish!! I have replaced friction plates in various cars and bikes over the years, and NEVER had to replace the flywheel or steel driving plates.

 

The only time you need to replace the driving plates is if they are scored seriously, or warped. Every single time I have ever put in a new friction disk, I could not tell any difference in "feel" or clutch action (except that it was no longer prone to slipping).

 

Bob.

[Ken H.]

I'm going to go against the grain here a bit and say that I think you can get by with doing just the friction plate. Examine the metal plates and the diaphragm spring when you get it apart and if they look OK, go for it. Maybe not ideal, but when you're on a budget, you're on a budget.

 

I hate to rain on your parade though, but slippage at high load sounds more like clutch contamination than a worn clutch plate to me. But you won't really know until you get into it.

[bmweerman]

I hate to rain on your parade though, but slippage at high load sounds more like clutch contamination than a worn clutch plate to me. But you won't really know until you get into it.

 

And if that should be the case...then what?

[Stan Walker]

BMW made some changes/upgrades to the clutch assembly

 

I think that was before his bike (97 as I recall), so he should already have them.

 

It's hard to say if you need the pressure plates without examining them. Slipping of dry clutch materials equals heat equals wear and possible damage to the surfaces of the pressure plates. Slipping of an oiled plate won't be as bad, just needs cleaning after fixing the oil leak.

 

If you only order the friction disc and it turns out you need the kit will Bob's let you exchange it?

 

Stan

[Edgar]

There are two places that most oil leaks occur. The main seal at the front of the transmission/back of the engine, and the trany seals on the shaft or pushrod of the transmission.

 

If it is an oil leak situation the clutch friction plate will be greasy and it will be intuitively obviously that the clutch failed from an oil leak. If the friction material is not greasy and there is no evidence of oil then it’s a matter of replacing the clutch parts that you choose to replace.

 

If the main seal leaks you’ll see evidence of the leak, oil build up at the rear of the engine that spills over and fouls the clutch. If it is the trany seals look for oil evidence on the pushrod or the transmission shaft (pushrod should be bone dry). As has been stated before you won’t know until you get inside and separate the transmission from the clutch assembly. If you had a low mileage non-city bike with your symptoms then you might suspect it’s a leak. On the other hand your bike is in the lower mileage range for clutch replacement, depending on how the clutch was used or abused.

 

If it is the trany seals, the replacement seal kit is under $50, but requires 4 hours labor to split the box. This is probably a job for someone that has experience on transmissions. This is worst case, but I wanted to give you some insight.

 

I haven’t changed a main seal on an R1100, but on the R100 it was straightforward.

[smiller]

BMW made some changes/upgrades to the clutch assembly

 

I think that was before his bike (97 as I recall), so he should already have them.

 

Yeah, that's what I was going to say and I believe that Stan is correct, or at least that was the result of my research when I replaced mine... on a '99 this should not be an issue. Unless you discover any particular problem with the pressure plate (and you probably won't) I'm going to have to come down on the side of replacing the friction disc alone. Usually this is all you need (at least at the first disc replacement) and any more is just 'belt and suspenders' stuff... especially if you are on a budget. In any event the advice from Bob's that you will likely have a failure in a few k miles is complete BS and would lead me to doubt the guy's credibility.

[donhallman]

Please direct me to the source for Ted's video.

[Matts_12GS]

And, where do I get a clucth alignment tool?

I borrowed one, but it was an automotive one with changeable tips on it.

[squints]

contamination is not always the case. I just had the same problem (20K miles) and the dealer could not find anything leaking whatsoever, but did rebuild the slave cylinder and install new seals to be sure. As far as just replacing the friction plate I think I'd spend the extra and replace it all. The dealer showed me the pressure plate from mine and where it had been slipping it was noticably scorched which means the plate won't "mate" to it evenily. It will have high and low places on it causing the new one to wear prematurely. Just my $.02. Good luck either way.

[EffBee]

Cameron, I'm going to side with the dealer here primarily because of the reputation of the dealer. Bob's BMW is one of the top dealers in the U.S. Their reputation is sterling. Imagine both scenarios and what they would cost. First scenario you save a couple hundred bucks. Second scenario you have to spend close to a thousand yet a second time.

 

There are dealers in the U.S. I would trust implicitly. Bob's is very near the top of that list in my book.

[bmweerman]

I appreciate everyones input!!

 

Here is an excerpt of a PM I recieved from Ted (the maker of the aforementioned video)

 

If the pressure plate has been over heated (and warped), then he'd be correct. That would be VERY unusual. I'd buy the friction plate first and then be open to buy the rest of the stuff if needed. Glad you enjoyed the DVD - we had a good time!

 

That seems to make the most sense to me...I have the friction, plate, bolts and tool coming via UPS as we speak.

If I get in there and find evidence of other stuff going on then I'll get the other parts. As long as she's ready to roll by Death Valley Time it's all good wooo hoo

 

And I agree about Bob's, they are great...at someones suggestion (thank you BTW) I tried Chicago BMW and yes they were cheaper but they didn't have the parts, would take a week and a half before they could ship...etc, etc.

OTH called Bobs' back asked for what I wanted, boom boom, on the way...no muss no fuss!!

 

I'll keep you posted on the progress!

 

And thanks again everybody

[Mike]

Cameron, I'm going to side with the dealer here primarily because of the reputation of the dealer. Bob's BMW is one of the top dealers in the U.S. Their reputation is sterling. Imagine both scenarios and what they would cost. First scenario you save a couple hundred bucks. Second scenario you have to spend close to a thousand yet a second time.

 

There are dealers in the U.S. I would trust implicitly. Bob's is very near the top of that list in my book.

 

That was my reaction when I read your post, Cameron. There are many dealers I know nothing about, but Bob's is one of those that always receives positive reviews and seems to watch out for their customers. I'd trust their judgement on this.

[Barglowski]

To add my 2 cents...

 

I changed my clutch plate at 72k. No oil contamination. Just wear. And the splines needed lubing...

 

If it's just a wear issue, you'll only need the clutch plate. But for contamination or heavily gouged stuff, you've got more work to do.

 

Maybe Bob's has an excellent reputation, but really guys, they don't have the bike apart and their opinion is just is good as ours at this point. And they do have something to gain with their recommendation!

 

I put two trannies back on without the alignment tool: one with a clutch replacement and one without. It took a bit of "eye-balling" to get the clutch realigned, but it wasn't more than a few minutes (10?) to get the tranny back on. And then I freaked out about the new "length" of the clutch rod and took it all apart, putting it back together a second time. Not too bad. I did, however, have a friend helping with holding the weight while it was getting guided back on...

 

Given your constraints, have the friction plate and bolts/washers on hand. If you discover anything more to fix, well, you'll have to trade off the lack-of-cash with another week's worth of bike downtime to get the parts delivered. At that point, just take the time and do it correctly, as it's a lot of work to get back in there!

 

And lube those splines while you're in there

[bmwmick]

I appreciate everyones input!!

 

 

That seems to make the most sense to me...I have the friction, plate, bolts and tool coming via UPS as we speak.

If I get in there and find evidence of other stuff going on then I'll get the other parts. As long as she's ready to roll by Death Valley Time it's all good wooo hoo

 

 

Cameron,

One more tip, it's a good idea to deglaze both surfaces while you have it apart. You can do it with some 200 grit paper but I use a flexible sanding disk chucked in my drill motor. Take all the surface marks (from the slipping) out of both surfaces. Makes for a nice smooth engagement once you have the new friction disc installed. Just hit it lightly and make it look like a new brake disc that's been resurfaced.

 

See you in Death Valley. I've only missed a couple of these annual events.

 

Mick

Tucson

[bmweerman]

Thanks Mick!! Will do.

 

CU in DV

[Jim VonBaden]

Cameron, I'm going to side with the dealer here primarily because of the reputation of the dealer. Bob's BMW is one of the top dealers in the U.S. Their reputation is sterling. Imagine both scenarios and what they would cost. First scenario you save a couple hundred bucks. Second scenario you have to spend close to a thousand yet a second time.

 

There are dealers in the U.S. I would trust implicitly. Bob's is very near the top of that list in my book.

 

That was my reaction when I read your post, Cameron. There are many dealers I know nothing about, but Bob's is one of those that always receives positive reviews and seems to watch out for their customers. I'd trust their judgement on this.

 

Not necessarily by locals. See this thread. click here

 

Unfortunately Bob's reputation is sometimes bigger than his reality.

 

Jim

[chopperdan]

I think it comes down to time is money. I know how to cut corners when money is tight. But I have done this job before. It's kind of like peeling an onion. I wouldn't want to have put everything back together and find I have clutch chatter or slippage and have to do it all over again.

 

With that said.

 

If it is a seal that is leaking the yes i would replace the friction disk, seal and clean the other parts with break clean.

 

Now it it is just worn thats another story. Because slipping causes heat, heat cause distortion, and that will cause chatter. I would check the pressure plate with a straight edge and a feeler gauge. Also the diaphram spring could be weak or cracked. You can inspect it for cracks but as far as being weak I don't know how you could check that. A bad diaphram spring could also cause chatter or slippage.

 

The flywheel is larger and if it's the first clutch replacement I wouldn't really worry about it. I would change the flywheel bolts at the same time. I would use a r.o.d. sanded on the flywheel.

 

I'd open it up and find out why it failed. Then decide. If it isn't a seal maybe you could wait to get some money up.

If you can't wait then the worst thing is that you'll have to do the job again.

 

Good Luck,

Chopperdan