What have you learned from Keith Code?

[CoarsegoldKid]

I don't buy the peg pressure business on street bikes without reset foot positions and tucked-in body position. On a race bike it provides added leverage through the body to countersteer the bike is how I see it. On a BMW touring bike or a forward set cruiser for instance foot pressure does nothing for ya. Upper body strength is all ya got.

[BubbaLa]

so you don't have your feet under you on a rt?

 

 

[Horse]

so you don't have your feet under you on a rt?

 

OK, it's a Pan, but:

 

 

This was an instructor for the KNMV - the Royal Dutch Motorcycle Club - demonstrating how stable a bike is, leading to a demo of counter-steering (using a luggage strap around one grip - pulled by the rider who has both hands off the bars*) as the only way to accurately steer a bike. [Photo 1995]

 

 

FWIW, when riders have questioned the necessity to use conscious counter-steering, I've often used the BMW C1 scooter as an answer to their alternatives:

Body movement! Errr . . . no, you're seat-belted in

Knees against the tank! Nope, no petrol tank

Pressure on the footrests! But your feet are on footboards, well ahead of your body

 

The only thing you have left is hands (and eyes).

 

IMO - and that's bearing in mind the company we're now keeping - part of the benefit of 'weighting' the outside peg is that it can (perhaps subconsciously) help the rider to relax towards the 'inside' - i.e. left leg & arm, and so too waist/body/shoulders/neck.

 

That will free the rider to allow the bike to move about slightly if it needs to, with the rider's concentration instead well ahead [eyes] and relaxed use of the controls [bars and throttle].

 

However, it's an opinion only - I've haven't gone out and conciously tried tense/relax with peg weighting, so I'd value others' thoughts.

 

 

 

* Three instructor demo'ing this, one after the other. The third had tied the strap slightly 'above' centreline of the throttle grip, so when he pulled he also jerled the throttle open (previously they had the choke open to keep the bike rolling under drive rather than slowing).

 

Whoops.

 

The bike lurched ahead, now heading left as he'd pulled the right bar back.

 

. . . Lurched ahead, that is, to a soft earth bank about 12-15 feet high, above which there was a manouvering area where the audience were all stood.

 

Instructor stood up, looked up the bank, gave it some beans and Moto-X'd the Pan up the bank, parking on the tarmac area, to a round of applause

 

He then took the mic. and said that without his training he would have made all the wrong actions and wouldn't have got out of trouble.

 

That's be survival reactions, then: narrowed vision, tensing, closed throttle, grabbed brakes etc. - or, instead, overcoming them.

 

[Bernie]

I think it has a lot to do with where your head/eyes are pointed.

Light or small bikes will steer with much less input from upper body and weight transfer than large heavy touring bikes. While some 600's will go around some corners almost by them self, RT's need all kinds of input.

The same with the 12GS, they a wide handle bar setup which equals big leverage compared to sport bikes.

[Keith Code]

No reason to preach to the choir on counter-steering, sounds like you've all got that sorted. The No BS (as in No Body Steering) bike I built years ago shows pretty much all you need to know, in a matter of several seconds. But I think one of its primary lessons is how much we use the bars unconsciously and how little precision control we have over the bike when you lose contact with them... Or think that something else is making the bike go where you want to go.

 

The peg weight influencing the bike to any great degree is in violation of Newton's laws of motion, which even after 200 years hold up quite nicely. That isn't to say that you don't create some imbalance in the system, weighting one side of the bike, you do, and, it will drift in that direction. If we define that as steering OK but personally, I like a little more control over the direction of my bike.

 

The thing about the outside peg is, as was pointed out, a stabilizing factor for the rider to get the bar pressure precisely applied. Without some stability on the bike it still can be done just not as well. The same would be true for the pressure on the tank folks who believe that steers the bike. It helps stabilize the rider not turn it.

 

Interesting point also about short, stubby barred bikes compared to RT and GSs and so on. The biggest differences in how much pressure is needed are several: wheelbase, fork angle, trail and the size of the contact patch of the rear tire. By tinkering with the bike's geometry you could make them all steer with identical bar pressure.

 

It's all interesting stuff isn't it!

 

Keith

[CoarsegoldKid]

so you don't have your feet under you on a rt?

 

Of course I do. I just don't steer the bike with my feet. Pushing down toward the earth as you would on a touring bike doesn't allow you any force/leverage directed toward the handle bars. It essentially lifts you off the seat. On the other hand a properly positioned reset foot peg arrangement allows more force toward the bars when you push with the feet. Hence less upper body effort. Each rider has a different relationship with the bike. They spend a lot of time sorting out the seating on new race bikes. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Properly direct the action and less effort is required. If pushing down on the RTs footpeg feels more racy with less effort then keep doing it. I just don't agree.

[Huzband]

 

It's all interesting stuff isn't it!

 

Keith

 

Indeed! More practice tomorrow.

[Matts_12GS]

 

It's all interesting stuff isn't it!

 

Keith

 

Indeed! More practice tomorrow.

 

We should trade bikes at some point.

The differences in the amount of body steering is pretty stark even between two behemoths like the RT/GS.

 

Looking forward to the morning's ride!

 

Keith, thanks for chiming in!

[beemerman2k]

Keith, thanks for chiming in!

 

Absolutely. I agree.

 

Men such as yourself, Keith, perform a HUGE service to our community of riders. Your influence will save more lives than you can possibly know, and that will continue to happen long after we're all gone. I marvel at the Valentino Rossi's of the world (and I used to love watching King Kenny on his TZ750 back in the day -- NUTS!), but it's the Keith Code's and the David Hough's of the world that we are truly indebted to.

 

Thank you for your life of service!

[beemerman2k]

I belive every time someone mounts horse they are either teaching him or unteaching him.

 

Errr . . .

 

 

 

I got a kick out of this one

[Huzband]

Matt, I think you're missing something. Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, but "body steering" is not what we want to do. We want to show the bike, through various light pressure points, where we want to go.

 

Yes, our body position has a direct influence on the bikes attitude, but we aren't steering with it.

[Matts_12GS]

Matt, I think you're missing something. Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, but "body steering" is not what we want to do. We want to show the bike, through various light pressure points, where we want to go.

 

Yes, our body position has a direct influence on the bikes attitude, but we aren't steering with it.

 

Perhaps it's semantics, but I was referring to use of "Body English" or "Body Position" to augment the countersteering inputs that initiate the turn.

 

riding my GS requires far less input to make the same turn at the same speed as my 1100RT did while maintaining as much contact patch as possible.

 

I think we're saying the same thing, but in different terms.

 

Tomorrow will tell!

[Huzband]

That makes sense. I knew you knew better.

 

Turns out I'm helping Bill with the Goose brakes tomorrow, so practice on my behalf.

[tallman]

I belive every time someone mounts horse they are either teaching him or unteaching him.

 

Errr . . .

 

 

 

I got a kick out of this one

 

 

Trust me, if you got kicked by a horse, you wouldn't be grinning.

[Kinsley]

[sorry I didn't explain better. I am not formally taught in riding, but I read and understand what it takes. KC's methods are not the only ones...Pridmore says they suck.

 

Having taken both, I can tell you that their methods and techniques are almost exactly the same. they use different terminology, but if you listen closely they say basically the same things. There's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you have to hear something several different ways before it clicks.

 

The lines are very different between the two....You'll live longer on the street doing Code's lines. For the track, maybe it doesn't matter so much.

[NCStephen]

I have experienced Pridmore's CLASS, I have ridden with BIKESAFENC and experienced their critique of lines, I have taken MotoMarks class. The execution is slightly different but the premise isn't all that different. More a slight difference of perhaps 1/4 of the lane in the initial set up of the turn. I haven't taken KC Superbike School. If I am lucky next year I can do that. There isn't one riding style, one line, one body position, one view of the world. They all have had success with how they ride and see it along with reasons for their choice. If we can learn many things from Masters of the Art, then we can apply them in good ways in our daily ride. If the only tool in your bag is a hammer, everything will look like a nail. The more tools we have, the better we can become. Experience as much as you can from skilled mentors.

 

NCS

[Kinsley]

I have experienced Pridmore's CLASS, I have ridden with BIKESAFENC and experienced their critique of lines, I have taken MotoMarks class. The execution is slightly different but the premise isn't all that different. More a slight difference of perhaps 1/4 of the lane in the initial set up of the turn. I haven't taken KC Superbike School. If I am lucky next year I can do that. There isn't one riding style, one line, one body position, one view of the world. They all have had success with how they ride and see it along with reasons for their choice. If we can learn many things from Masters of the Art, then we can apply them in good ways in our daily ride. If the only tool in your bag is a hammer, everything will look like a nail. The more tools we have, the better we can become. Experience as much as you can from skilled mentors.

 

NCS

 

I disagree with Pridmore's lines for street riding. It's the wrong tool for the job of staying safe with hazards we don't find on a track.

[NCStephen]

Each cam have own opinion. Here there are many times when it is part of the tools of staying safe. Again, not one tool, not one line works all the time as conditions change and the unexpected is anticipated and adaptation becomes a very fluid part of things. Ride well and enjoy!

 

NCS

[Kinsley]

An inside line on a blind right hander is not a tool I wish to use on the street.

[Lone_RT_rider]

An inside line on a blind right hander is not a tool I wish to use on the street.

 

Amen brother. Ridem wide and deep. Wait... that just didn't sound right.

[Matts_12GS]

An inside line on a blind right hander is not a tool I wish to use on the street.

 

Amen brother. Ridem wide and deep. Wait... that just didn't sound right.

 

you've been doing that a lot lately.

Turducken!

[Pat Buzzard]

As with most things, the situation dictates the lines we take.

[Kinsley]

As with most things, the situation dictates the lines we take.

 

Of course, but you have to have a basic philosophy and that philosophy should be based on safety for street riding. Since we riders get most of our information visually, it makes sense to gather as much information as possible by positioning for the best view through a corner. Unless there is a hazard to avoid, this would usually dictate a late turn in and apex.

[Keith Code]

Agreed, you must begin by having some sort of a standard to measure yourself against. When it comes to lines you evaluate what a good one is by taking into account the other things that it will influence if done well or done poorly. As noted by Kinsley, there is the visual aspect which is better. Based on line of sight you can see more of what the turn does from the classic wide and late entry point.

 

Next criteria is how many steering inputs you want to give the bike for any given corner. The fewer the better in my approach and one is the ideal.

 

Next would be bike stability which is solely bases on good throttle control. Which type of line would allow for the earliest possible moment to get back to gas and achieve proper balance of tire loads.

 

Next would come potential speed. Which sort of line allows for max potential speed. Not using max speed, fine, that just means you have more options once you are in the turn at a shallower lean.

 

Then, you look at the negatives of any line that would require more lean mid corner to exit, which also is a detriment to that road gripping good throttle control you had to begin with.

 

Then you might peek at surprise second-half-of-turn surprise slippery situations. If you are on a line that has any tendency to run you wide at the exit you aren't left with any joyous options if you have to go through it.

 

Then, you look at unfamiliar road situations and the possibility of that crowd pleaser-the surprise decreasing radius bend. Any line that would set you up to have the option to be able to late apex would be a plus, any line that tended to run you in on lower lines and early apex would make it difficult without a big

change in speed.

 

The list goes on. You might consider which sort of line would tend to force trailing the brakes leaned over judged against a line that didn't force you to. It's fine if you trail it's fine if you don't depending on road conditions and speed.

 

I might think of some more but I just had eye surgery and it's hard sitting in this weird chair with my head suspended in space.

 

Keith

[Kinsley]

Thanks Keith.....see you on the 8th at Willow

[Pat Buzzard]

Thanks Keith, that was very well put

[Keith Code]

I was thinking about something similar the other day and wrote a piece for my "Motorcyclist" magazine column about measuring things and how it's easy to become enthralled with one's own pet ideas and miss the reality of it. I can say that only because I've done it myself in years past and had to suck it up when a skill or drill or coaching technique wasn't all I had imagined. The column piece should come out I think December issue, maybe January...I never know.

 

Keith

 

 

[Horse]

Next criteria is how many steering inputs you want to give the bike for any given corner. The fewer the better in my approach and one is the ideal.

 

There's a suggestion in UK road training that the 'perfect' line for bends (and this is based on police training) should be to - when safe - stay out wide for view then, when the exit is visible, go onto a wider radius line coming in to the 'apex' (albeit that term isn't used) then out wider.

 

But what many riders haven't worked out is that if you take a set line into a left bend, eg parallel to the centre line over here or the right hand kerb in the US, then taking a wider line will make you run out of lane!

 

In fact, it's necesary to turn slightly tighter first, then take the wider line . . .

 

I call it the 'secret second steer'

 

 

GWS

 

[Huzband]

Interesting you should bring this up. I, actually several of us here in N. Fl., ride with a fellow that will practice different techniques from corner to corner on the same ride. Sometimes he hangs off, sometimes only his upper body is inside, & sometimes he seems to do nothing with regard to body english. None seem to be wrong mind you, but just different. For what it's worth, he rides a 12RT, as do I, & he's DAMN FAST!!!, no matter his technique.

[OoPEZoO]

riding my GS requires far less input to make the same turn at the same speed as my 1100RT did while maintaining as much contact patch as possible.

 

Funny you mention that Matt. I have almost 5k miles on my GS now and I still haven't managed to put together a comfortable cornering technique for it yet. I've hit a nice groove a few times, but nothing like I could on mt RT. I don't know if its the change in ergos versus my RT or more if I'm just not riding as much as I used to. The few people I've ridden with claim I'm riding just as fast, but I feel no where near as comfortable or smooth as I did on the RT. Those wide handlebars make it super responsive (almost twitchy). The technique I always used on my RT had me moving my upper body forward and out over the jugs, weight on the footpegs, with a slight shift in seating position depending on the severity of the corner. For some reason, I can't duplicate it on the GS. If I try, I feel like I'm going to go in the ditch. Due to the larger distance between the pegs and seat, I feel like it prevents me from properly taking the weight off of the seat. This leaves me feeling awkward and sloppy in the corners. I was kinda hoping to file in with a few of the GS riders at the UN this year to get a look at what techniques people are using to ride them, but didn't get the chance. It also doesn't help that probable 3500 of that 5k miles has been 2up.

[Huzband]

You & Matt need to arrange a play date. He'll show ya.

 

As for Danielle, teach her to look over your inside shoulder & weight her inside peg. That'll make your life much easier.

 

For example, when I went to the Un in '08, I was to escort Jamie (Firefight911's wife) to John Day. Her bike broke, so we went two-up for two days. I was impressed at the fact that I never knew she was back there, even though we went through a lot of twisties, some at high speeds. At the end of one day I was looking over the bike when I noticed the rubbers on both passenger pegs were rotated forward about 45 degrees. I asked her if she was weighting them & her response was "of course, why?" Phil taught her well.

[OoPEZoO]

Oh no, Danielle is awesome on the back of the bike. Absolutely zero complaints. She was taught on the back of my GSXR, and to this day I don't even know she is back there. I shouldn't even say taught. Back when she was still in the early girlfriend status (and me in my sneakers and tank top phase), she just jumped on and went. A quick 30 seconds of instructions and no problems at all. She figured it out quickly and just flows along. Her first ride longer than an hour was when she flew out to Montana and rode along for a week of 300-600 mile days when I was touring the west coast. The only time she tenses up is when we are in heavy traffic. The rest of the time its just like carrying a little extra camping gear........you know, the kind that needs to stop and pee every 45 min

 

 

The funny thing is now. After 8+ years of riding together we actually have a decent intercom. So now she gets to hear all the dumb crap I talk to myself about when we are cruising through the twisties. This last UN trip made me realize just how comfortable she is. She actually started picking out and giving me crap when I was taking bad lines. She also started critiquing the guys in front of me........which I will let slide and never mention again.

 

I feel really comfortable with her on the back, its just that I ride a little "different" when she isn't in the copilot seat. That "different" used to be a lot smoother. I just haven't figured it out on the GS yet

[Matts_12GS]

Keith, I'll probably bring two bikes to Maggie Valley, we'll get a GS play day in with Alan D on his fancy new shoes.

[Kinsley]

We're talking about two different things here.

We have How we control the bike, then Where we put the bike within the given environment.

How we control the bike may change depending on many things, but Where we put the bike is our riding philosophy. Everyone has a philosophy even if they don't know it. If we are coming into a turn, we have to make a decision of when to execute it, or the pavement will decide for us. Not many of us would let each corner decide.

[OoPEZoO]

Keith, I'll probably bring two bikes to Maggie Valley, we'll get a GS play day in with Alan D on his fancy new shoes.

 

I won't be there. Work is forcing us to take off two weeks unpaid this fall, and I still need to replace my roof and siding on the house before the weather gets too cold. Between those two situations, I don't have the time or the money for a play date this fall.

 

Fingers crossed for the spring.

[Matts_12GS]

Sorry to hear that but I understand

 

 

[Horse]

riding my GS requires far less input to make the same turn at the same speed as my 1100RT did while maintaining as much contact patch as possible.

 

The technique I always used on my RT had me moving my upper body forward and out over the jugs, weight on the footpegs, with a slight shift in seating position depending on the severity of the corner. For some reason, I can't duplicate it on the GS.

 

Go for what a mate calls 'Sack of spuds' riding style? ie Just plonk yourself on the seat, relax, and just use forearms for steering - no/minimal upper body movement.