Spline lubing for proctologists!

[louisvillebob]

Thank you. Yet another example of riders helping each other. Glad to be among such nice people.

[KMG_365]

I just got around to doing another Splinal Tap on Maynard the othjer day and I'm happy to report that my clutch splines still seem to be showing little if any wear!

 

I thought I noticed the bike starting to shift hard again in the cool mornings and the starter squealed once on me the other day, so since I'm prepping Maynard for a two-up trip back to West Virginia, I thought I'd make sure everything was as comfortable as I could make it. With the starter removed, the tranny in neutral and the clutch lever zip-tied to the grip I'm still only getting about 3/8" of play at the outside of the clutch disk--well within CaliKid's range of almost new. The splines looked dry so I shot a few mm^3's into each spline groove and then followed up with a small blast of canned air with a similar bevel on the tip of the plastic extension tube--sweet! Not including putting everything back on, it's about a 30 minute job!

 

I'll have to wait until I get the Ohlins back from being rebuilt to appreciate the difference in shifting quality and Leslie didn't take any pics for a walk-through this time. I rode Arianrhod to work this morning and she's been sitting a lot recently. She shifted pretty rough at first (probably a little rust on the splines) and I'm sure she's due for a "tap". Maybe I can get someone to come over who can keep their hands clean enough to take a few pics!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

An aerosol lube with a long spray tube would also work, but it seems like it would be hard to measure out a SMALL amount under pressure like that and not foul the clutch.

 

How about combining the best features of both methods:

 

1. take your long-needle applicator, and fill the syringe full of the spray lube (said spray lube consisting of a light, evaporative carrier heavily loaded with Moly). Depending on the characteristics of the spray can, this could be a messy operation, but could be carried out over a trash can or spread of newspaper or something, away from the bike.

 

2. Use the long-needle applicator to apply a controlled amount at the end of each spline, allowing it to wick its way along the spline in between the clutch disk and gearbox input shaft.

 

Presto: the precision control of your syringe-device, and the full coverage of wicking lube onto all hidden surfaces.

[KMG_365]

Seems to me the perfect thing for this application would be a product we used to use for helicopter service (part of the Dow Corning 'Molykote' line of products) which was an aerosol moly compound that sprayed on wet (and had a very low viscosity so it would get in-between anything) and then the carrier dispersed in a few minutes leaving a moly coating. I'm looking for the specific product and will post the link if I can find it...

Well? Any luck??

 

I just had the same idea as Mitch: by mixing the Honda Moly with some 3-in-one oil to the proper consistency and then sucking up a measured amount with the same tube then attached to the can of compressed air and blown down the spline channel. It would save a step doing it at the same time. Besides, I can't find any more syringes at my medical supply place. But I bet we could find a substitute tube long enough at a crafts store, hardware store or maybe even Radio Shack.

[tomk99r11]

You might also try a farm store where some syringe type items are sold for dosing livestock.

[RT Pilot]

The stuff described sounds like the PJ1 chainlube my son uses on his Suzuki. . .it is sprayed through a long plastic tube and comes out like water, but thickens up within a few seconds so it doesn't fly off the chain--I'm not sure what kind of lube it uses, but it seems to work good and sticks to everything it touches. I'm wondering if a shot of this stuff would work. . . .

 

 

[ESokoloff]

.....I bet we could find a substitute tube long enough at a crafts store, hardware store or maybe even Radio Shack.

Hi Jamie (ILHGH.....errr never mind )

Perhaps something here would work.

I found this site from a Google search for capillary tube.

 

Upon further review ..... how about?

[Armando]

How about -> http://www.drillspot.com/products/533139/jet-lube_16041_moly-mist-tm-_dry_film_lubricant or http://catalog.storquip.com/products/lubricants-and-penetrants/moly-mist-dry-film-lubricants/399-16041/

 

I believe they are the same product. Here is the manufacturer --> http://www.jetlube.com/jetlube/productdetails.aspx?productId=147

 

I have yet to order but believe Boxdawg has used it. Then the only trick would be to make a long tube that could be molded at the tip for squirting the stuff in.

 

a

[Gaston]

Before I start calling local medical supply places, does anybody know of an online source for the long needles? I saw lots of sources for similar spinal tap or biopsy needles, but not exactly like this one that Jamie used...

[JamesW]

Before I start calling local medical supply places, does anybody know of an online source for the long needles? I saw lots of sources for similar spinal tap or biopsy needles, but not exactly like this one that Jamie used...

 

I'm sure you have heard this before but if I were you I would just pull that tranny and clean and lube those splines. I venture to say you would accomplish very little by attempting this short cut. I did my '04RT this fall and it wasn't bad at all because I removed the transmission with the final drive and wheel attached. Just rolled the whole works out as a unit. My splines were like new but old lubricant needed to be cleaned away as it had hardened. It would be most difficult to force a material like Honda Molylube through a syringe with enough force to accomplish much of anything. You would have to thin the lubricant and I think that would defeat the purpose. IMO. Roll on down to Baker City and we'll just lube those old splines.

 

Uh...on second thought...

[Gaston]

Thanks James -- that is definitely the best thing to do in the long run. The way you did it, how long did it take you? How many miles did the bike have?

[JamesW]

Morning Gaston,

It took me about 6 hours start to finish. Machine has 35K one owner miles. I took a piece of 3/4" plywood and fastened 4 castors to one side then used the jack from my Ford Escape clamped to the plywood to support and precisely adjust the height under the transmission which made it a snap to just roll the assembled drive train out. Also, made it very easy to go back together. While I was at it I replaced the leaky clutch slave cylinder, which I hear is not un-common to be found leaking and I replaced the plastic break prone fuel disconnects. Believe me, the job is easy and pretty darn straight forward. Would be much more time consuming to dis-engage the final drive and work one's way up to the transmission. I decided against doing this because bike has only 35K miles and drive shaft splines seem not to be a big issue. I really wanted a good look at the trans input shaft splines. After doing this job once I no longer fear digging into the bike at all. Just take your time when dis-assembling and pivoting the rear frame up out of the way which it does very easily. And look at it this way, if some of these genius BMW shop mechanics can do it....... Kind of like Ford shop mechanics. I took my escape in for a funny kind of rattle that seemed to be steering wheel related and they replaced the entire rack. Well, it still rattles and good thing it was a warrantee job. As long as nothing falls off it can just keep rattling like any good Ford.

 

Oh, the lubricant I used I bought from Mathew Parkhouse, an airhead mechanic, at last year's national in Redmond. It is a mixture of Honda Moly and some other goop. Now I have piece of mind concerning my bike and that is worth much. I have an '81RT airhead and will do splines on it again soon. Many folks say the airhead is so much easier than the oilhead but I think the oilhead is about the same and in some ways maybe easier except for all the plastic removal.

 

Oh, I see yours is an '02RT. Seems I have read the '02 was more prone to input shaft spline problems. If I were you I would definitely want a look at those splines. If you do the job make sure you only lubricate the male splines not the female clutch splines as you don't want lubrication to end up on the clutch disc.

[nrp]

...It would be most difficult to force a material like Honda Molylube through a syringe with enough force to accomplish much of anything. You would have to thin the lubricant and I think that would defeat the purpose.

FWIW - thin the grease with lacquer thinner or other strong solvent that will evaporate. Be sure to inject each spline tooth at the root. Maybe an insulin hypodermic? I suspect you only get to do this abbreviated procedure once between major lube jobs.

[JamesW]

Hello nrp,

Gaston states that his machine has 75K miles and I am assuming the splines have never been serviced so in his case I would think that a complete inspection, cleaning, and proper lubrication would be the best way to proceed. Also, there is the peace of mind factor and that is important, imo. On the other hand it seems most spline failures occur at less than 75K miles so it may very well be that Gaston's machine is okey dokey. That said there is really only one way to find out and that is to do a proper spline lube. I would certainly not inject a thin solvent solution into the splines on my beast but to each his own.

[JamesW]

I would suggest before you inject a thinned mixture of Moly into your splines that you take a spoon full of Moly or whatever is your lubricant of choice and thin it with solvent and place it in a suitable container and observe the effects for a couple of days. The solvent might change the consistency of the lubricant and might even result in hardening or the ability of the lubricant to cling. I would want to be sure that the thinner leaves the lubricant unchanged.

Try pouring solvent in motor oil and see what happens. My experience is the solvent goes into suspension with the oil and remains there which results in permanently changed motor oil. I'm just saying.....

[nrp]

Good idea to check the compatibility w the solvent of choice.

[Armando]

I bought a can of ---> http://www.jetlube.com/jetlube/productdetails.aspx?productId=147 which I believe Dogwood has used before. I also got a --> http://www.mcmaster.com/#aerosol-can-extensions/=b0broa which is an aerosol extension. I will be trying to use this combo to lube the splines this spring. Concern is that the aerosol will hit the clutch plate so some testing will go into how long to spray for. Is there a way to shield the clutch?

[Linz]

OK, I see that some folks are saying to disassemble the bike and apply the lubricant. I accept that reasoning but I'd like to know how the other method is achieved please.

The starter motor is removed and through the small access space, you can see the splines. I've read where you're supposed to pull the clutch lever and use a zip tie to hold it in place. I've got that, now how do you rotate the engine to access all round the spline given that the clutch is disengaged, and the starter motor is removed?

Is it a matter of removing the front engine cover and rotating with an appropriate wrench?

Also, has anyone on this forum done this procedure the short way and then still had spline failure?

Appreciate any responses.

 

Linz

[Paul Mihalka]

With the clutch lever pulled you disconnect the clutch disk from the engine, but it is still connected to the gear box input shaft via the splines. Just put it in the highest gear (5th or 6th) and turn the rear wheel.

[JamesW]

Yup, that's right put it in gear and bump the rear wheel. Also, you will be amazed by how very little travel there is as the clutch disc moves when the clutch is disengaged. We are talking maybe about 1/16" if that. The long and short of it is do the job right and take it apart. You will be glad you did. Or maybe not. I know I was afraid of what I might find because had I discovered spline wear that would have opened up one big can of worms like what to do, as in fix it at great expense or maybe sell it. Selling it and not divulging the spline problem would not have been an option for me not even if I couldn't stand the buyer. When the big moment came and I separated the tranny and saw those beautiful splines I just got this super warm and fuzzy feeling. I felt so good I picked up the phone and ordered a new Russell Day Long Saddle just to celebrate because she's a keeper and I know it. And no ABS!! But that's another story.

[KMG_365]

The easy way to do it (are you sensing a pattern here?) is to put the tranny in neutral and zip tie the clutch lever. At this point the clutch disc and the input shaft on the tranny can spin freely for very easy access to the circumference of the spline shaft. From the years of reading here it appeared as though you either had a bad one or a good one. If the former no amount of lube would forestall the inevitable and they usually stripped out within 50K miles +/- 25K Miles. If the latter, they would go for ever and the reason for the Splinal Tap was merely to ease the downshifting (especially into first gear). My 2003 1150RT has over 160K miles on it and the tranny's never been apart. I've done three Splinal Taps over the years (about every 25K miles after the first one I figured out around 80K miles) and the improvement in shifting is noticeable.

 

The other thing you want to do while you're in there (especially if you have over 25K miles on your bike) is check the wear of the splines. If you got a bad one, i.e. the runout alignment between the tranny splines and engine/clutch splines is bad) you'll be able to feel the "slop" or "play" as you rotate the clutch disk back and forth. Follow the previous procedure, get a flat screwdriver (or a long awl) and a bright light. While looking at the small portion of the tranny input shaft splines exposed poke the edge of the clutch disk and rotate it up and down feeling and looking for the amount of play rotationally before the input shaft begins to move. If the splines are dry you can even hear it click or tap as you rotate the clutch disk back and forth and rattle the splines in their respective channels and hear/feel them bumping up against the sides.

 

If you want to get a sense of that warm and fuzzy feeling JamesW mentioned but find the whole procedure daunting, note the maximum length of the arc traced by the tip of your screwdriver against the edge of the clutch disk without moving the input shaft. This is a delicate operation as with the tranny in neutral the input shaft will turn freely and you'll have to watch closely or have a good feel (or ear). In a brand new set of splines the arc should be about 3/8" (~1cm) to ~1/2" (~1.25cm). If it measures an inch (~2.5cm) you've likely got a bad runout (especially if your bike is low miles) and it's probably worth it to do the full disassembly to check it out more thoroughly. If the arc measures 1 1/4" - 1 3/8" (~3cm-3.5cm) you're looking at imminent spline failure and I would not recommend riding that bike to the Unrally!

[nrp]

KMG_365 - A very good writeup THX.

 

If you have good engine transmission alignment as evidenced by essentially no spline wear at high mileage, I think there is a definite advantage or reason not to do a major disassembly of the bike, and instead to just do a proctologist's lube job.

 

I'm not sure the engine-transmission alignment is always duplicated on reassembly, and you may just happen to introduce an error into things that happened to be almost perfect before. I realize there are pilot bushings between the two major parts, but the necessary accuracies just might not be served on reassembly.

 

Of course if your clutch is worn, you don't really have any choice.

[JamesW]

Good point NRP. I thought about the possibility of introducing an alignment problem. On my '04 there are two alignment pins that seem to produce a very precise fit when going back together. I assume earlier versions also have these alignment pins but I don't know. Seems awhile back I read something to the effect that one should install bolts with the heads cut off to act as alignment pins but I don't really remember. I know I thought my trans was mounted with only 4 bolts but mine had I think, if I remember correctly, 6 bolts plus the alignment pins. My memory is not what it once was. Getting old is hell but somebodies got to do it. As they say, "Beer is the answer but I don't remember the question".

 

I know that before I decided to do a by the book input shaft spline inspection I did remove the starter motor and look for metal debris and I also checked the run out by measuring the amount of slop in the splines. I also looked into or thought about trying to inject some lubricant but decided against it as I just didn't think I could be sure of the results. I thought about just doing the starter motor removal spline inspection and never mind the lubrication because BMW didn't really list spline lube as a necessary maintenance procedure. All that said I decided to take it apart and satisfy my curiosity and I'm glad I did. I do think starter motor removal and inspection is the next best thing maybe every 25K miles or so. Then if you could find a lubricant that is manufactured thin enough to inject and do the job maybe this would be a good way to go. I bought some BMW brand lubricant once years ago for my airhead that was fairly thin if I recall correctly. I know it was much thinner than Honda Moly. I also know that over time BMW has changed the recommended lubricant numerous times as the airheads had a lubrication requirement as did the K bikes. Airhead spline lube interval is, I believe, every 10K miles. Then the splines were hardened and plated which may have changed the requirement. Anyway, spline lubrication for beemers didn't start with the oilhead bikes. In fact the whole thing seems to really begin when displacement reached 900cc with the production of the R90. Which many of us consider to be the finest machine ever made by BMW. I like my R100RT and wouldn't be without it but when it comes to coving the ground our oilheads surely are primo, imo.

[Peter Parts]

KMG 365, couldn't be righter or express the points better.

 

But, I'd say the slop at the edge of the clutch plate for good splines could be a lot less. Of course, if you find your slop low, you are just laughing and not losing sleep over that!

 

About that cable tie on the clutch lever, I found the trick is to flick the clutch open and closed as you work a bit of grease down the splines. Doesn't take much grease to achieve some lubrication, compared to dry and wearing quickly.

 

My experience is that splines and clutch plates last almost forever, unless you've had the misfortune to previously ride wet-clutch bikes and don't know how to treat a dry-clutch right.

 

Ben

[nrp]

The reason I'm suspicious of our ability to realign things is my 1975 R90/6 first ate it's splines at only about 30,000 miles. I disassembled it, & replaced all the parts on my own with Permatex antiseize before knowing about these wonderful websites and the knowledge therein. Since then I found out a lot more about the nature of spline alignment problems. I disassembled it again after maybe another 20,000 miles & the new splines were perfect. As a MechEngr it seemed to me the alignment system was typical for that type of product, but the wear second time around was non-existant. Mt R1100RT has a somewhat similar pilot alignment system but uses two close fit bushings etc. Maybe alignment can be messed up by unequal tightening of the bolts?

 

FWIW BMW has had some specification problems thru the years with BMW spline lube.

 

I agree the spline slop clearance measured at the OD of the clutch pack should probably be less.

 

Remember each tooth of the spline has to be lubricated on each side.

 

BTW - The temporary alignment pins are only to allow the transmission to be slid into position without bending the clutch release rod.

[Tobias]

Seems that the alignment issue on some engines is related to machining at the factory. If you have a "good one" the locating dowels and machined surfaces don't leave much option for the alignment to go out of spec.

[AndyS]

Seems that the alignment issue on some engines is related to machining at the factory. If you have a "good one" the locating dowels and machined surfaces don't leave much option for the alignment to go out of spec.

 

Correct.

Andy

[JamesW]

Morning nrp,

On my machine the alignment pins aren't temporary. They are permanent and the clutch rod assembly isn't installed until the trans is re-mounted and torqued. Good idea to put a dap of moly on the tip of the clutch rod. Also, leaky clutch slave cylinders can't be removed for inspection until most of the dis-assembly work is accomplished that you must perform prior to trans removal anyway. I looked at some parts replacement diagrams for earlier model years and the number of bolts to remove trans looks to be the same (6). The only difference I could see was the need on some models to fashion one's own alignment pins. As I say my '04 had pins installed and it would have been unlikely if not impossible that any mis-alignment could occur upon re-assembly. Again, my observation on my machine. When I took a test ride after the job I seemed to notice that shifting felt more positive and clutch engagement and dis-engagement felt sharper or quicker. Probably just my imagination or most likely caused by replacement of slave cylinder and subsequent flushing and bleeding of clutch circuit rather than spline lube.

[nrp]

James W - Good points. Maybe the difference in alignment on reassembly is maybe caused by the surfaces not being clean? or is it maybe just my R90/6 had no spline lube when new and the Permatex antiseize on the first reassembly was very effective?

 

I wish there was a way to "float" the engine assembly into a best alignment/location with the engine running. I remember one spline failure posting a few years ago where the owner of a nearly new bike found no alignment pins when dismantled. That would be one way to do it.........

 

The effects of crankshaft main bearing clearance should be considered in all this too. With loose main bearings, the spline may end up carrying much of the crankshaft radial load, hammering the spline to failure.

[JamesW]

It has been said that lubricating the splines won't prevent failure and I tend to believe this as well. It has also been said that machining of the transmission case being out of tolerance is what causes these failures and I tend to believe this. If your bike has a properly machined trans case then you will most likely never have a spline problem. Seems most spline issues show up at 40K miles or much less. This is why I did what I did. I had to see those splines. I bet in your case with 75K miles you have not much to worry about. That said if I had spline failure at say 100K miles I wouldn't feel too awfully bad because 100K miles on a motorcycle is pretty darn good. And after all, these beasts are mechanical contraptions made by us mortals and they are just not going to last forever spline lube or no spline lube. It seems to me us beemer enthusiasts are by our nature fanatic about the proper workings of our machines. Look at all the tech days and these forums. It is our nature to be forever tinkering and worrying about our beloved beasts. I am convinced we march to the tune of a different drummer. I once tried to help a stranded Harley rider that had a weak battery. The guy didn't even have a clue where his battery was located, honest to God! So, good luck fabricating your lubricant injection system and let us know how it works.

[Gaston]

It has been said that lubricating the splines won't prevent failure and I tend to believe this as well. It has also been said that machining of the transmission case being out of tolerance is what causes these failures and I tend to believe this. If your bike has a properly machined trans case then you will most likely never have a spline problem. Seems most spline issues show up at 40K miles or much less. This is why I did what I did. I had to see those splines. I bet in your case with 75K miles you have not much to worry about. That said if I had spline failure at say 100K miles I wouldn't feel too awfully bad because 100K miles on a motorcycle is pretty darn good. And after all, these beasts are mechanical contraptions made by us mortals and they are just not going to last forever spline lube or no spline lube. It seems to me us beemer enthusiasts are by our nature fanatic about the proper workings of our machines. Look at all the tech days and these forums. It is our nature to be forever tinkering and worrying about our beloved beasts. I am convinced we march to the tune of a different drummer. I once tried to help a stranded Harley rider that had a weak battery. The guy didn't even have a clue where his battery was located, honest to God! So, good luck fabricating your lubricant injection system and let us know how it works.

 

James,

 

I may be an "enthusiast" because I may not be able to sleep really well again until I inspect my splines inside. On the other hand, anytime I consider doing a maintenance project that I haven't done when there are no bad symptoms, I think about the risk of stripping some threads or messing something else up LOL

 

Maybe I'll ride over to your place after the BMW Riders of Oregon 2011 Chief Joseph Rally in John Day June 12th-16th. Looks like only another 80 miles or so east to Baker?

[JamesW]

Morning Gaston,

I know what you mean about being hesitant to take it apart when there is nothing wrong. As is said "If it ain't broke..." Take your time and you will be fine. You have an advantage over me because you are close to some good BMW dealers whereas I am pretty isolated with closest shop being in Boise about 145 miles east. BMW of Western Oregon is a good place. Say hi to Scott.

 

Yup, John Day is 70 miles to Baker City. If weather is decent I'm going over that way. You could whip over to Baker and then take I84 to Tri Cities then cross the Columbia and cruise down WA SR14 to Vancouver. One of my favorite rides on a hot day.