Spline lubing for proctologists!

[KMG_365]

No, I'm not being funny! I've just been thinking about this question lately and the recent thread on checking for clutch slave cylinder leakage in the inspection hole brought it to mind again. Here's my question:

 

I was always wondering if it wouldn't be possible to apply a little grease to the splines through that "timing inspection hole". It would seem that with the right tools: a Honda Moly-filled syringe with a longish semi-rigid, but bendable tube extension, a light and mirror (or some sort of oto/opthalmo/proctologists scope) to guide it, it should be possible to apply a bit of grease to at least some portion of the splines. With rotating the engine and shifting the tranny a bit with additional small applications in between, it seems like any lube would spread out a bit and at least be better than nothing.

 

I'd have to check out the parts manual to see how they all are arranged relative to each other and the hole (as I've never done or seem first hand the operation, but I'd be happy to invest a few $100.00 in specialty tools to avoid having to disassemble the whole dang thing and spend two days doing it (I know, but for me It'd be at least TWO days! ).

 

Everything in my industry is heading that way now with arthroscopic micro-surgery techniques getting people off the table and back on their feet in days instead of weeks or even months. Why fillet out the whole patient's body if, with the right technology, you can go in through a small incision (or an existing orofice) and reduce the trauma (mine) and healing (reassembly) time??

 

What say you who have delved into the "bowels" of the RT? Is this idea even remotely reasonable??

[russell_bynum]

I think you could probably devise something that's better than nothing, but probably not "good enough".

 

I don't think the clutch moves enough on the input shaft to allow you to get lube where it's needed. Perhaps if we were using a thinner lube that you could apply and it would run down the input shaft splines, that would be a viable option. But, if memory serves, the Moly paste is fairly thick and not likely to behave that way.

 

And...I think you'd have better luck going in through the gap left when you remove the starter than trying to go through the timing hole.

[Sean]

Unfortunately, the proctologist approach to spline lubing has been explored and it just doesn't look to be feasable. Whether attempting to approach from the timing hole or by removing the starter, you cannot get at the splines. I've already tried, as have others here. The friction plate (which has the outer splines) is sandwiched in an assembly containing a flywheel, diaphragm spring, pressure plate, and clutch cover. There are practically no exposed internal splines that you can access, and even if you could, you could not effectively lube them. If you try applying the spline lube to the input shaft's inner splines in the hopes of "working it in" by cycling the clutch, you'll just end up with spline lube all over your clutch assembly and then you have an even bigger mess on your hands.

 

I recall that someone here (Mitch maybe?) was exploring the idea of modifying the input shaft in such a way that lube could be injected via the clutch pushrod tunnel, but that also presents problems. So unfortunately, the only good solution is still to pull the tranny to lube the splines.

[Nevets]

And...I think you'd have better luck going in through the gap left when you remove the starter than trying to go through the timing hole.

 

This is the approach (removing the starter) that my dealer took when I complained about a symptom of difficult downshifts from 3rd to 2nd to 1st (was still under warranty). When I got it back, it worked great. This seemed to help for a couple months, but it seems that the slightly difficult downshifting has started to return. I'm figuring I'll need to do a complete spline lube myself over the winter, to get it done right...

..but I'd sure like to find out if there was an easier way than what I think is normaly required in terms of spline lube disassembly (you go Mitch!!!)..

[steve.foote]

Sean, how about if someone were to drill and install a grease zerk on the clutch-plate spline part? Would the additional weight of the zerk cause a balance problem?

 

I would assume that a long necked grease gun could reach it through the starter hole. The clutch plate would have to be rotated for alignment.

 

It seems to me it could be done.

[Sean]

Sean, how about if someone were to drill and install a grease zerk on the clutch-plate spline part? Would the additional weight of the zerk cause a balance problem?

 

I would assume that a long necked grease gun could reach it through the starter hole. The clutch plate would have to be rotated for alignment.

 

It seems to me it could be done.

 

The idea has merit, if BMW were to design this into their future motorcycles, but I don't see it being a feasable retrofit to the existing bikes and here's why. The balancing issue could be worked out, but the first issue would be designing the friction plate's outer spline collar with the zerk in such a way that it could evenly distribute the lube all the way around the splines, without compromising the splines themselves. So, it's more involved that just tapping threads in the friction plate collar for a zerk. Then you'll have the issue of the user potentially adding too much grease. This isn't like greasing ball joints or chassis points where you hit it with grease until it comes spurting out the sides. That would be too much grease, and it would just end up all over your clutch. But this is the lesser of the two problems I see. The second, and more significant problem I see is that, I think, the current flywheel is concaved such that you can't physically access the friction plate's spline collar because it's sitting in the flywheel's recessed area far enough that you couldn't get to it from the timing hole or starter area.

 

Really though, if BMW were to improve on their clutch design, the solution wouldn't be to add an accessible zerk to the spline collar, rather it would be to solve the root problem(s) (add a pilot bearing, flare out the splines, change the throwout mechanism, etc.). Bascially, BMW needs to design the clutch assembly like that on their automobiles. Then, there wouldn't be a need for any zerk/lube maintenance, AND it wouldn't fail! What a concept!

[russell_bynum]

Really though, if BMW were to improve on their clutch design, the solution wouldn't be to add an accessible zerk to the spline collar, rather it would be to solve the root problem(s) (add a pilot bearing, flare out the splines, change the throwout mechanism, etc.). Bascially, BMW needs to design the clutch assembly like that on their automobiles. Then, there wouldn't be a need for any zerk/lube maintenance, AND it wouldn't fail! What a concept!

 

Man, that's thinking outside the box!!

[steve.foote]

Man, that's thinking outside the box!!

 

I wonder how many times BMW engineers have read this forum and said, "Hey, that's not a bad idea!"

[steve.foote]

but the first issue would be designing the friction plate's outer spline collar with the zerk in such a way that it could evenly distribute the lube all the way around the splines, without compromising the splines themselves.

 

Yep, that is exactly the problem. Especially with something thick enough to stay put in an open environment. I would agree that a more traditional clutch bearing setup would be helpful here.

 

Than again, it all comes back to statistics. It would be very interesting to see the actual failure rates of the current setup.

[Rider1200RT]

I don't know why your 'operation' wouldn't work. On my outboard engine I have numerous grease fittings so all kinds of parts can be greased up. I fail to see the reason why bikes can't have the same system for lubing splines and other drivetrain related items.

Why a grease nipple can't be fitted on the i.e tripple clamp, sidestand, driveshaft etc is beyond me.

[Londoncallin]

I don't think the clutch moves enough on the input shaft to allow you to get lube where it's needed. Perhaps if we were using a thinner lube that you could apply and it would run down the input shaft splines, that would be a viable option. But, if memory serves, the Moly paste is fairly thick and not likely to behave that way.

 

And...I think you'd have better luck going in through the gap left when you remove the starter than trying to go through the timing hole.

 

How much movement of the clutch plate is there on the input shaft? I had the starter off yesterday and could easily see the clutch plate center hub but could not see any movement when disengaging the clutch. Bike shifts normally and smooth.

[russell_bynum]

How much movement of the clutch plate is there on the input shaft?

 

VERY little. I wouldn't be suprised if you couldn't see movement.

[Cali Kid]

VERY little. I wouldn't be suprised if you couldn't see movement.

 

Well actually that's not quite correct. I had my starter off last weekend. I was doing some followup measurements of the play in the clutch disk to tranny splines. This was because of the spline lube/worn tranny splines I found last Febuary. I had only replaced the clutch disk.

 

The movement that can be measured is the rotational play. Strap the clutch lever down to hold th clutch open. Then get the cluth pressure plates rotated to a point that the edge of the disk is easily accessed. If you do it gently you can rock the disk back and forth on the splines. I use this as my reference for wear.

 

For splines and clutch disk that are in good condition the rotation (rock), measured at the edge of the disk is about 1/16 in or less. When I repleaced my disk with the old splines I had about 1/8 in. That was was from the near complete failure value of 1 inch!

 

It now has about 5/16 in. rock after 10K. Looks like it will go another 30K easily, and probably 40K if I stop riding it like a maniac.

 

As far as lubing it, the best I could do was swab some moly paste on the exposed portion of the splines. I did it in such a way that the hope is I pressured some lube into the splines. However, I did some other modification to the disk when I installed it to trap the lube and keep grundge out, so it shouldn't need the lube anyway. Didn't think it could hurt, however.

 

Jamie, if there is a way to do it, the most likely scenario will include removing the starter. It's pretty easy to do. I don't think it takes a bit more time than removing the tank, but not much. I'm imagining a collar that can be inserted into the housing behind the clutch, and clamped around the shaft and disk hub. Then grease is pumped under pressure into the splines. If you can get a decent seal grease will go into the splines. There is suffcient clearance, even in new ones for grease to migrate. Then be careful not to over grease it. The collar would have the grease fitting on it, and grease would follow the spline grooves.

[KMG_365]

Okay, if this works . . . IT'LL GO TO ELEVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

FIRST--I've got to take a moment to thank the AWESOME folks here who have educated and inspired me to delve into the bowels of these damned machines and saved me a small fortune--only to make me spend all of it on gadgets!!

 

A week or so ago I went looking for a tool to try out my Proctologic/Arthroscopic Spline Lube procedure and I stopped by a used medical supply place that had bins upon bins of stainless steel medical torture devices laying around: big ol' drill bits and scrapers and burrs--oh my! I found an assortment of large, gorey needles used for doing Spinal Taps or maybe bone marrow biopsies. Having had to endure a bone marrow biopsy during my bout with cancer a few years ago I thought it rather fitting that the instruments of my previous torture would again be put to a helpful and even more creative use!

 

Also, recently the coarse high-pitched whine my starter has been making when I released the starter button had been getting on my nerves, so I decided I'd give the "Splinal Tap" a try and fix that darned noisy starter at the same time.

 

I'm going to go for a short, fast ride tomorrow before work (I have a followup checkup for my Hodgkin's Lymphoma at 11:00 and don't have to be in to work until 12:30! ) and since my shifting has been getting sticky of late, I'll let you know how it turned out!

 

Below are some pics of the tool I made and a little explanation. As with the other walk-throughs, I'll cut my teeth on my bike, then get Leslie to do hers and I'll take pics of her doing the whole procedure and post it here as a proper walkthrough (assuming I notice ANY improvement in the stiff shifting).

 

Here is the interior catheter attached to the 3ml syringe with a luer-lock tip. The whole thing you're looking at measures about 12.5" (~32cm) with the catheter itself measuring about 8.5" (~22cm). It is made of a softer metal and it rides inside the needle when being bored through the bone!

 

Here's a detail of the 3ml syringe and luer-lock port. The catheter's port has a little petcock to start and stop the flow--so make sure it's not closed when you start! I actually used two 3ml syringes: one to draw the Honda Moly grease out of the cardboard tube it comes in and then, after removing the plunger from the second 3ml syringe, used the first syringe to fill the second syringe, then I attached the catheter and replaced the plunger and filled the catheter as well. The Honda moly grease is fairly thick and air doesn't compress that easily so I wanted to avoid introducing too much air into the system.

 

Here's a detail of the customized catheter tip. I first removed the outer needle which was harder stainless and had a sharp, beveled tip--all the better to dig it's way into your spine (*shudder*)! The needle screwed down onto the threads on the hub OVER the catheter as opposed to being on the inside like an intravenous needle. The needle with it's sharp tip was even more gruesome and looked like something from "Dr. Caligari's Cabinet"!

 

The inside catheter had a rounded, blunt tip with the discharge port on the side at the end. I cut the very end off with a pair of dikes, straightened out the remaining side-hole with a pair of small needle nosed pliers, and then stuck the tip of the catheter BACK into the beveled end of the needle (backwards) just 1/8" (3mm) and used the needle as a jig to put a small bend (about 30*) on the very end of the catheter.

 

After removing the starter I could see about 3/8" (~1cm) of the back portion of the splines pretty clearly. I slid the catheter tip up into the space and into the spline trough with the side opening facing the clutch. I then slid it flush up against the clutch and applied a bit of pressure until I just saw a small bit of grease start to "goosh" out around the tip, then I moved on to the next spline trough. I used the end of the rubber covered handle of my framing hammer against the teeth of the flywheel to turn the flywheel/clutch assembly by pushing down on the flywheel and worked my way around--putting just a "dab" of lube in each spline trough. For lubing all the spline troughs together I used only 0.2ml of grease in total. This doesn't strike me as too much and the little bit I used was applied directly to the spline trough. It might be better to do this again before we take off for the Unrally in June and ride through the desert at 120*F for two days to assure maximum "flow" into the rest of the splines.

 

Figuring out and completing the whole procedure took only a little over three hours--including taking a break to put a batch of Glühwein (hot, mulled wine) in the crock pot! I figure if I did it in the future in conjunction with a regular service it might add about an hour to the whole service.

 

The steps for the 2003 R1150RT include:

 

1) Remove the LHS tupperware.

 

2) Remove the air box cover (phillips screws), air scoop (pulls up and back) and negative battery cable (10mm socket--and cover the cable end with something insulating).

 

3) Remove the LHS footpeg mounting plate (8mm and 6mm allen hex keys) and disconnect the shifter linkage (turn and pull out the keeper "pin" from the lower ball-and-socket joint then pull/pry the socket off the ball)

 

4) Remove the small solenoid wire (spade connector) and the top (positive) wire (13mm socket) from the back of the starter.

 

5) Remove the two screws holding the starter and you might also need to snip a zip-tie holding the wires behind it and/or use a mallet to knock the guide pins out of their mounts).

 

If your starter is squealing you can add the following steps:

 

6) Clean the shaft with a piece of shop towel and some solvent (carb/throttle body cleaner or equivalent) pull/slide out the toothed gear and turn the large bearing behind it with your thumb to clean all the way around it (if yours is as caked with greasy dirt as mine was).

 

7) Blow it all dry with compressed air and re-grease the starter shaft with some Honda moly lube working the gear back and forth to spread the lube.

 

At this point I realized--after removing the screws that hold the shroud/housing--that they also now rivet the halves of the alternator together so you can't easily disassemble it further for overhauling (you could always drill out the rivets if your starter is malfunctioning to re-build it). The good news is that you don't need to bother if it is still working okay. You can just clean and re-grease the shaft to stop the squealing!

 

8) Lube the splines with the "Splinal Tap" device as described above.

 

9) Installation is the reverse of removal!

 

10) After re-attaching the battery ground, turn the key on and open and close the throttle a few times to re-program the Motronic before starting the bike.

 

11) Re-set your clock!

 

--------------------

 

I'll report back after the ride tomorrow morning whether I notice any improvement in the stiff shifting I've noticed lately, but the true test will be doing it right before a "hot" ride to maximize the "flow" of the grease into the rest of the inaccessible splines.

 

I also did the "spline wear check" that CaliKid mentioned and found only about 1/8" of play, so I'm hoping that the splines are just really dry and not too badly worn out.

 

More to come . . . .

[Stan Walker]

Sounds like you need a new nickname.........

 

Interesting idea. I hope it works. This tear apart the whole back half of the bike to wipe $0.02 worth of grease onto the clutch splines is for the birds. No fun at all.

 

I would think that it will do one of the following:

 

1) Nothing, moly doesn't wick well and there is so little movement of the disc that it never spreads beyond where you put it. This is the no harm no foul scenario.

 

2) The disc gets up to speed and flings globs of moly onto the clutch disc. It seems unlikely as the clutch disc isn't lined up with the place you are injecting the grease.

 

3) It works. You become a legend. BMW hires you to inspect and lube all the R1150RT's. You get rich......

 

Stan

[Jim VonBaden]

Sweet! I love this, and Stan's inspection procedure! What a way to save a heck of a lot of work!

 

I'm waiting patiently for the results, and follow-up pictures and procedure from you both!

 

Jim

[Stan Walker]

and Stan's inspection procedure

 

I do believe that Rick (Cali Kid) gets the credit for this.

 

I was just reporting my results using it.

 

Stan

[Jim VonBaden]

and Stan's inspection procedure

 

I do believe that Rick (Cali Kid) gets the credit for this.

 

I was just reporting my results using it.

 

Stan

 

Thanks to both of you then!

 

Are you still planning on documenting it?

 

Jim

[Cali Kid]

Jamie, I hate to be the wet blanket (actually i may enjoy it), but I have my doubts.

The reason is (assuming I understsnd your procedure) that shooting grease into the visible spline trough only gets grease on the exterior of the clutch spline, and nothing is forced in to the area "between" ID and OD splines.

I tried something similiar with a long stiff swab. I tried to press the grease into the splines, but little actually got in. That was why I thought something like a sealing collar, that allowed some serious pressure, would be needed.

 

Also, I'm not sure that the way the bike shifts would give any real indication of the effectiveness. I think you need (not me thanx ) to take the tranny off to really see what you did.

Maybe a combination of your "proctoloober" and a seal of sorts, would really force some grease in the crack.

 

On a lighter note. That is one of the scariest looking BMW tools invented. I think there may be a market for them, just because it would make such a great conversation piece. Imagine that on your coffee table

[KMG_365]

Well the preliminary news is good! The shifting was MUCH improved, but as stated that may not have any effect at all on the rest of the splines. I just saw the "measure your clutch plate thickness 'in situ' post" that Stan just posted. Thanks, Stan but you're a day late . . . and a dollar short!

 

I was relieved to find the play in the splines was so minimal, but I won't be surprised if my 100,000 mile clutch is due for replacement!

 

I'm going to have to rip it open sometime between Death Valley next month and the UnRally in June, so I can check on and report here the "progress" of the lube down the splines then. I don't want to take any chances getting stranded in the middle of nowhere again on my way to another UnRally!

 

It was pretty cold this morning when I left the house (mid 50'sF) so the lube didn't get a chance to warm up much. I hit the freeway eastbound first thing to get to the twisties and the inland areas were free of fog and warmed up pretty quickly. I did see over 70*F for a little bit, but I'm sure the splines never got "really" warm. They always feel "less sticky" when they're warmed up a bit, and since I hit the freeway first I didn't really give it a good test. The better test will be on my way home tomorrow morning hitting city streets with everything still cold. I'll take a drive through the city with lots of shifting, starting and stopping and see if the big improvement I noticed this morning holds.

 

The tip of the catheter sort of "sealed" up against the outer splines and I pushed for about 1-2 seconds before I saw grease start to come out each time, so I might've actually gotten some small quantity of grease behind there. Even if the lube doesn't spread very far, it appears that the little bit I did do (if the shifting stiffness pans out tomorrow morning) is worth the trouble. Also, it might just stick there until the next desert ride heats it up enough to run down the spline a bit. Who knows? I just know that I've got to tear into him pretty soon anyway, so I may be able to confirm the efficacy of this procedure and put an end to the speculation!

 

I also stopped by the used medical equipment place today and he had another six in the bin. I bought two more in case anyone else wants to give it a shot. Ping me with an address and I'll get one off to you (let me know if you can't get a 3ml syringe, too). Especially if you're planning on opening your bike up soon anyway, it'd be good to get a second opinion on if this thing works or not!

 

Rick, if this thing does in fact end up working really well, I'm thinking of mounting this "tool" on a plaque and hanging it up in the hall with the rest of our Certs, Diplomas and Iron Butt stuff!

 

Whattayathink, should I do the illustrated walkthrough in "Dubly"?

[Stan Walker]

measure your clutch plate thickness 'in situ' post" that Stan just posted. Thanks, Stan but you're a day late . . . and a dollar short

 

Oh well, it didn't work well anyway..... <sigh> See my other thread for details.

 

More importantly, the rotational play maps well with the observed wear on the splines. I had very little play (revised to 1/8") and virtually no wear. This is a very good thing.

 

And an additonal note. I would think that the edge of the clutch disc is visable and reachable through the timing hole. If so, that might be even easier than pulling the starter as a place to check the rotational play. I haven't tried it so I can't be sure.

 

For what it's worth, the splines were very dirty down in the bottom of the V shaped valley. I don't know if that will help or hurt the wicking of the moly 60.

 

Stan

[Stan Walker]

I won't be surprised if my 100,000 mile clutch is due for replacement!

 

I can't speak for your riding style, but it looks like my clutch should be good to 200,000 (about 1/3 worn at 69,166 miles). I do a mix of commuting and long trips.

 

I'm unsure what BMW's clutch wear limit means. Is it when the clutch is likely to quit working? Or is it used by a BMW mechanic to decide if it should or should not be replaced at this time if otherwise OK? I'm taking the conservative approach and assuming the wear limit is end-of-life.

 

Stan

[BeniciaRT_GT]

That is one of the scariest looking BMW tools invented. I think there may be a market for them, just because it would make such a great conversation piece. Imagine that on your coffee table

 

I already had one of those on my table!

 

Rick, come on down. I think I need a hand (again, especially after all your amazing help/knowledge/skills at my previous public proctological spectacle) at some point since I don't have any confidence in my splines anymore!

 

I'll show you the other stuff I keep on my coffee table

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Would perhaps you have a tool left for me? I would need a syringe to

 

I was thinking: (which kind of hurts a lot!) Maybe before I tear into mine again, maybe do your technique, and then tear into it and see what exactly it did.

 

My theory on the improved shifting is that the lube may have filled up the gaps, and took out the axial slop therefore improving your shifting,

 

but,

 

If that is the case, it will not help for long as the lube gets displaced and it now is back to original wear, but the wear will (possibly) no longer be accelerated.

 

I'm still convinced the problem isn't so much a lube problem as an alignment problem.

 

I wonder if the housings are a bit "off" and the failing ones also may have a larger PTR issue too?

 

Anyone had both problems?

[KMG_365]

Would perhaps you have a tool left for me? I would need a syringe too

I was thinking: (which kind of hurts a lot!) Maybe before I tear into mine again, maybe do your technique, and then tear into it and see what exactly it did.

Yeah Richard, that's exactly what I'm talking about. So the first one's yours! (Do you need it early, or should I just bring it to DVD?)

 

 

My theory on the improved shifting is that the lube may have filled up the gaps, and took out the axial slop therefore improving your shifting,

 

but,

 

If that is the case, it will not help for long as the lube gets displaced and it now is back to original wear, but the wear will (possibly) no longer be accelerated.

As I was thinking about this it occurred to me: so if it gets displaced . . . where does it go? One possibility is certainly down the length of the splines. That leads me to think that even a little dab every 12K or annual service might be enough to keep the splines lubed enough without EVER having to stinkbug the bike for a prophyllactic spline lube. I'd rather save it for when the time comes to replace the clutch (wear on your splines reaches a known pre-failure point or you need a new clutch from plate wear).

[Cali Kid]

Rick, come on down. I think I need a hand ... I don't have any confidence in my splines anymore!

 

Richard, anytime. Just clear the coffe table and we'll do it right there

 

it will not help for long as the lube gets displaced and it now is back to original wear

 

so if it gets displaced . . . where does it go?

 

Wait, I think you're missing something about the moly lube.

 

Molybdenum disulphide shows a layer lattice similar to that of graphite. Because of the lubrication properties caused by the crystal lattice, molybdenum disulfide can be used as a solid dry lubricant. It is also often mixed into various oils or greases, which allows mechanisms so lubricated to run less noisy and to keep running for a while longer even if most of the oil should escape!

That means it doesn't matter that the goo is gone. The MoS2 keeps on lubricating because it reamins on the surfaces where friction occurs.

However, once the goo is gone there will be little migration of the MoS2. That is why it is important to squeeze as much juice in as possible, and achieve maximum surface coverage.

[BMT]

I like this Lazy Man's Approach ! (That's a term of admiration, in my book!)

 

But let's go back to a comment that Russell made at the top of the thread -- use a thinner lubricant. While I understand the use of the Honda Moly grease, is there a better way? I'm thinking along the lines of a MoS2 lubricant in a volatile carrier medium, so that the mixture will wick properly between the spline mating surfaces. Then the carrier fluid evaporates off and Hey, Presto. As you say, Rick, the MoS2 is the most significant part, not the carrier grease

 

The same sort of approach is used with aerosol chain lubricants (remember those? ) and that stuff works well for all sorts of applications, from centre stand bushes to car door hinges.

 

I have no suggestions for this mythical ideal spline lube, but just wanted to mention a lateral thought.

[KMG_365]

Good points, Nick.

 

Yes, I was thinking that ANY lube is better than totally dry splines fretting against each other for 10's of thousands of miles. If the above procedure doesn't work with the MoS2 lube, it still seems like you could use something thinner that may dissipate more quickly, but since the application is so quick and easy, it wouldn't be too big a hassle to apply it more frequently. An aerosol lube with a long spray tube would also work, but it seems like it would be hard to measure out a SMALL amount under pressure like that and not foul the clutch.

 

Regarding using the timing inspection hole, considering the small size and judging by where the timing marker tab is on the flywheel relative to the location of the splines at the rear of the clutch assembly, the starter removal technique--while more labor intensive--is MUCH easier access. You have to remove the tupperware for either method anyway and pulling the footpeg plate takes about 5 mins and the starter (and ground for battery) another 5 mins, so it might add as little as 30 mins to the normal service.

 

The best test will be if Richard or I get a chance to pull our trannies after using the Splinal Tap device/method with the Honda Moly and see just how far, if at all, that stuff flows. Even if it only moves a small amount, subsequent small applications every 6K might push a small quantity of lube further down the splines as well, so a one time shot might not be a fair estimate of it's efficacy.

[Jim VonBaden]

I think it is well worth trying!

 

Jim

[ESokoloff]

Hey Jamie (ILHGH).

Just a thought.... could you push the lube farther into the splines using a blast of compressed air?

[KMG_365]

Hey Jamie (ILHGH).

Just a thought.... could you push the lube farther into the splines using a blast of compressed air?

Yes, yes! I thought about that possibility earlier and then promptly forgot about it! Thanks for reminding me!

 

I didn't pursue it earlier because I got a late start, it was already getting dark and I was wanting to get it back together so I could ride it to work the next day. In my head I was working on some way to get a rubber-tipped hollow probe all the way in there to make a seal and blow the grease further in, but I just noticed that the hub on the outer needle I removed from the catheter has the exact same O.D. as the tip on my compressed air gun. I taped the two together and covered the joint with heat-shrink and voilá! A very small diameter, 10" long compressed air gun!

 

I also was looking at the big beveled tip and thought I might try to take a small pie-shaped wedge out of each side of the bevel with my dikes and put a right angle bend on the very tip to direct the air sideways right into the splines! I took a picture of the new tool and I'll try to post it from work tomorrow. We'll probably try it out on Leslie's bike when we do hers. That way we can compare the two methods when we do the eventual tear down to replace the clutches. I could probably dip the tip in that "liquid rubber" stuff they sell at the hardware store for dipping the handles of your hand tools in, then make a smaller hole just the shape and size to apply maximum force of air right to the gap in the splines too! I think I've got half a can of that stuff around here somewhere if it hasn't hardened up already!

 

Stan, there must be some way to measure the clutch plate thickness in situ. If we can see it, can't we find some caliper that has tiny jaws to grip it? I'll keep chewing on it.

[nrp]

Instead of trying to figure out how to get a standard grease zerk threaded in, we once used just a .050 or even 1/16 inch dia hole & then used a long stiff needle with a tapered point to force grease in. Spline lubing would also of course require a distribution groove on the shaft, or better yet on the clutch disk spline bore so that each tooth got its share of the lube.

 

Some car U-joints were once greased this way. The grease forms the plug that keeps contamination out.

[smiller]

Seems to me the perfect thing for this application would be a product we used to use for helicopter service (part of the Dow Corning 'Molykote' line of products) which was an aerosol moly compound that sprayed on wet (and had a very low viscosity so it would get in-between anything) and then the carrier dispersed in a few minutes leaving a moly coating. I'm looking for the specific product and will post the link if I can find it...

[daveco]

How about dri-slide for cable lube? It comes with a needle for injecting, although probably not long enough. Dave

[tomk99r11]

I don't know about others, but your post and pics make me squirm, uncomfortably!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Couchrocket]

It was pretty cold this morning when I left the house (mid 50'sF)

[KMG_365]

 

All right, you gotta consider context!!

[Londoncallin]

Seems to me the perfect thing for this application would be a product we used to use for helicopter service (part of the Dow Corning 'Molykote' line of products) which was an aerosol moly compound that sprayed on wet (and had a very low viscosity so it would get in-between anything) and then the carrier dispersed in a few minutes leaving a moly coating. I'm looking for the specific product and will post the link if I can find it...

 

Jet-Lube Marine Moly, www.jetlube.com, I think I got it from McMaster-Carr.

[Scorpion]

Anyone given any thought to the possibility of heating the molylube to a specific temperature to improve the flow/penetration for this application method?

[Godfather]

As I am so new to BMW, and just learning the basics, so I think I will wait to see exactly what the outcomes of the "Spinal Tap" are. This surely sounds like a far easier procedure than the traditional spline lube process though. Hopefully there will be follow up posts, and maybe one of those wonderful photo "how to's" to accompany the procedure. Thank you for the ever enlightning information. The BMW family is amazing! Thanks again.

[KMG_365]

As I am so new to BMW, and just learning the basics, so I think I will wait to see exactly what the outcomes of the "Spinal Tap" are. This surely sounds like a far easier procedure than the traditional spline lube process though. Hopefully there will be follow up posts, and maybe one of those wonderful photo "how to's" to accompany the procedure. Thank you for the ever enlightning information. The BMW family is amazing! Thanks again.

Hmmmm, well I think after 120,000+ miles on Leslie's starter, her's is finally starting to make the dreaded "starter cog squeal".

 

I suppose I could try to have her take some pics while I combine her "sticky starter service" with a "Splinal Tap" and a "spline wear check" on her 2002 R1150RT. She had a new clutch put in at 38,000 miles when the main seal failed and oil-fouled the clutch (right after the factory warranty expired--practically paid for the extended warranty right there in labor alone! ) When the dealer had it apart (this is before I got brave about servicing the RT's myself) I asked them to be sure to lube the splines (I'd been hanging out here far too long already by this time). I was told "What? There's no need for that. I've never heard of any need to lube the splines on these bikes."

 

Well, it's been 120,000+ miles on her original input shaft and 90,000+ miles on the current clutch disk, so maybe they have a point: you don't need a spline lube unless you really need a spline lube--in which case it'll likely fail within the warranty period.

 

No promises on a time frame though, until I get the Master Bedroom tile finished and we get moved out of this teeny guest room, get moved back into our bedroom and half of the contents of both the office and Master Bedroom out of our garage/wrenching space!

[Godfather]

Too bad you were not closer to Michigan...I could help finish your tile project, and you could, well, spinal tap?

 

Please do take photos when you and Leslie do her RT...I am sure there are a bunch of us who would like to see this done.

Thank you, and I anxiously await the How To.

[RSL]

KMG, you may wish to consider a couple of other things in your Bimmer proctology practice:

 

1. Pro Vision 300 or similar flexible fiber optic endoscope for automotive use. This is a layman's adaptation of a flexible proctoscope. You can add an adapter to take pictures through it. Google for it, and shop around. Occasionally good used ones on eBay, for ~2/3 retail price.

 

2. Also Google for "vacuum infusion" process, where viscous fluids such as epoxy are vacuumed INTO and through fiberglass or carbon fiber in a vacuum bag layup, rather than trying to squeege & slather them under low pressure. In other words, rather than spraying the lube into the spline crevices (and risking it going everywhere BUT where you want it), apply vacuum to the other end of the splines, and suck the lube down into the crevices.

 

Surgeons have all sorts of neat micro-surgery tools for minimally invasive procedures: Some endoscopes include video, vacuum, cauterizing snares, pliers, scissors, etc. all built into one narrow and flexible tool. We need that sorta stuff for our bikes.

 

Using a Pro Vision or similar to see with, would there be sufficient access to apply lube to one end of the splines and vacuum to the other end? Perhaps a magnetic tip at the end of the vacuum tube would hold it in place, with similar tip on the end of the applicator, for spline lubing.

 

Whatdya think?

 

Finally, I'm shocked to hear that some BMW mechanics say no spline lubing is needed. Sounds like a way to sell more (& very expensive) transmissions.

[KMG_365]

1. Pro Vision 300 or similar flexible fiber optic endoscope for automotive use. This is a layman's adaptation of a flexible proctoscope. You can add an adapter to take pictures through it. Google for it, and shop around. Occasionally good used ones on eBay, for ~2/3 retail price.

Good idea, but the view of the reachable part of the splines is not that difficult when you remove the starter.

 

2. Also Google for "vacuum infusion" process, where viscous fluids such as epoxy are vacuumed INTO and through fiberglass or carbon fiber in a vacuum bag layup, rather than trying to squeege & slather them under low pressure. In other words, rather than spraying the lube into the spline crevices (and risking it going everywhere BUT where you want it), apply vacuum to the other end of the splines, and suck the lube down into the crevices.

This is also intriguing, but here the problem is access to the other side of the clutch disk. When I first did mine, I thought I noticed only a slight improvement, but in retrospect I haven't noticed any of the issues I did at first, which leads me to believe that the heat/time/plate movement might have distributed enough lube to the rest of the splines as it shifted. Unfortunately, I have not stink-bugged either bike so I do not know what the original condition of the either bike's splines were, nor what mine are like now, so my "eveidence" is purely empirical and totally subjective.

 

Finally, I'm shocked to hear that some BMW mechanics say no spline lubing is needed. Sounds like a way to sell more (& very expensive) transmissions.

Well, since our bikes had a combined 210,000 miles without any extra lube, it would seem that, unless you get a bad one there is no need for additional lubing for the "lifetime of the bike", which if you believe BMW's amortization specialists is way past time for more (& even MORE expensive) new bikes!

 

Perhaps we can do one (or more) at the SoCal Tech Daze coming up on January 6th!

[russell_bynum]

Well, since our bikes had a combined 210,000 miles without any extra lube, it would seem that, unless you get a bad one there is no need for additional lubing for the "lifetime of the bike", which if you believe BMW's amortization specialists is way past time for more (& even MORE expensive) new bikes!

 

I think that's an accurate statement.

 

BMW does the same thing with their Automatic transmissions: the fluid does not have to be changed for the life of the transmission (which will be prematurely ended by failure of the used-up fluid. )

 

Chances are, if you just left it alone until you needed a clutch, you'd proabbly be OK. The problem is, that's an awfully expenive "probably" and it has the potential to leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

I'd say it's probably a good idea to lube the splines every 50K, and rebuild the transmission (replace the bearings) every 100K. I think if you've got a "good one" and you do that, the transmission should last pretty much indefinitely. Of course...that's just my opinion...it's not really based on any hard evidence or anything like that...just my hunch.

 

Perhaps routine lubing (maybe every 25K??) with your proctospline tool would do well enough that you wouldn't have to stinkbug the bike until you rebuilt the transmission.

[Mike O]

Jamie,

 

Decided to read this post, simply because of the post's title. And like other mechanical chores you've documented, I think it's cool the way you go about tackling the problems. Have you had the chance to actually inspect the splines to see how effective this was?

...Surgeons have all sorts of neat micro-surgery tools for minimally invasive procedures: Some endoscopes include video, vacuum, cauterizing snares, pliers, scissors, etc. all built into one narrow and flexible tool. We need that sorta stuff for our bikes.

I'm as much into wrenching and tools as the next BMW owner. But if I need to add an endoscope with video, vacuum, etc to my tool box just so I can continue riding my bike.......I'm gonna buy a Honda.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[RSL]

Jamie,

 

Decided to read this post, simply because of the post's title. And like other mechanical chores you've documented, I think it's cool the way you go about tackling the problems. Have you had the chance to actually inspect the splines to see how effective this was?

...Surgeons have all sorts of neat micro-surgery tools for minimally invasive procedures: Some endoscopes include video, vacuum, cauterizing snares, pliers, scissors, etc. all built into one narrow and flexible tool. We need that sorta stuff for our bikes.

I'm as much into wrenching and tools as the next BMW owner. But if I need to add an endoscope with video, vacuum, etc to my tool box just so I can continue riding my bike.......I'm gonna buy a Honda.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

 

Well, my point is that some inspections and procedures are inordinately expensive and time-consuming simply for lack of access and visibility. The mechanics' fiber optic endoscope that I mentioned costs ~$150 to ~$200, and would allow inspection of at least some areas of a bike or car without removing half the hardware just to get there. Further extrapolating from medical practices, one can imagine being able to apply a dab of lubricant on the right spots, or collect a sample to see if it contains metal, or whatever.

 

Further, one could watch some of the inner workings of the clutch, etc. as it engages and in motion, eliminating some of the guesswork about diagnosis. This sort of tool could actually make bike maintenance cheaper and more efficient. It could help to avoid some of the errors that occur during dis-assembly and re-assembly. Just a thought.

[KMG_365]

I'm as much into wrenching and tools as the next BMW owner. But if I need to add an endoscope with video, vacuum, etc to my tool box just so I can continue riding my bike.......I'm gonna buy a Honda.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

 

Mike, as I posted above, I haven't had a chance to take a good look at the disassembled splines yet as it would mean stink-bugging the bike. I was inspired to "figure" these work-arounds out by the many ingenious folks here who have shown me the way. Their work has saved me and hundreds others here thousands of man-hours by figuring out a clever way to "work smarter, not harder" (and often also "cheaper" ).

 

 

 

Well, my point is that some inspections and procedures are inordinately expensive and time-consuming simply for lack of access and visibility. The mechanics' fiber optic endoscope that I mentioned costs ~$150 to ~$200, and would allow inspection of at least some areas of a bike or car without removing half the hardware just to get there. Further extrapolating from medical practices, one can imagine being able to apply a dab of lubricant on the right spots, or collect a sample to see if it contains metal, or whatever.

 

Further, one could watch some of the inner workings of the clutch, etc. as it engages and in motion, eliminating some of the guesswork about diagnosis. This sort of tool could actually make bike maintenance cheaper and more efficient. It could help to avoid some of the errors that occur during dis-assembly and re-assembly. Just a thought.

I definitely get what RSL is saying here and the same reasoning was behind my original modification of the needle for spline lubing. I bought Ted's Excellent Spline Lube Party Video and watched it a few times. While they did make it look easy, it still looked like a LOT of work and with my limited concentration and wrenching skills: a LOT of time that I would rather spend riding (plus I commute on my bike so it would be hard being without it for the weeks it would take me). Since I haven't been "forced" to learn how it all comes apart yet, it seemed like it was worth the time to figure out a better way without having to have the bike out of service--and I just LOVE a "puzzling challenge" like that!

[louisvillebob]

Apologies for starting what I 'm sure is an old,old thread, but where can I obtain this "spline lube video"? Have read the procedure in the maint books, but this might help me avoid expensive mistakes. Thanks.

[KMG_365]

Apologies for starting what I 'm sure is an old,old thread, but where can I obtain this "spline lube video"? Have read the procedure in the maint books, but this might help me avoid expensive mistakes. Thanks.

If you type the following into the search field (accessed from the header):

 

+ted +spline +lube +video

 

And blank out the time delimiters, you'll find the following link:

 

Ted's Spline Lube Party DVD!