Michaelr11 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Use of vacuum gauges for Throttle Body sync is mentioned a lot here. Northern Tool company is mentioned as a source. There's one near me. Which gauge are you using? This one? http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200324171_200324171 Ebay has a bunch of VG kits, 2 gauges, hose for about $30. Anybody used these? Link to comment
AndyS Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Hi Michael, The simplest gauge is a home made 'U' tube manometer filled with ATF but water is OK too. The next simplest is the Morgan Carbtune http://www.carbtune.com/ These are simple, efficient, and accurate. The Twinmax http://www.twinmax.co.uk/ is accurate and efficient but less simple. The least reliabe is getting the vacuum gauge you are looking at. They have not been calibrated against each other either. I am a fan of options 1 & 2. Andy Link to comment
Starfighter Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Manometer.................. Clear tubing on a metal yard stick filled w/ ATF and attached to a rolling cart in the garage........ Very inexpensive and works well for me............................ Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I guess I'm the one who makes the most loud noises about the value of tuning with dual vacuum gauges and the importance of under-load testing. See my URL in signature below for a write-up on it. Ben Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I guess I'm the one who makes the most loud noises about the value of tuning with dual vacuum gauges and the importance of under-load testing.--- Probably so as most of us like a bit more precision than plain old inches of mercury vacuum gauges give us. Vacuum gauges are just great on multi cylinders above 2 as using a U tube on a 3 or 4 cylinder engine is down right complicated but on a 360° boxer nothing is easier to use or as accurate as the simple & cheap U tube liquid manometer. You can even road-load tune with a short U tube if the balance is set close statically before doing the dynamic part. I’m not opposed to turning under load but I don’t use engine vacuum for road load tuning as all that vacuum shows is equal vacuum not equal power side to side. The thing is to strive for equal power side to side not equal vacuum. Equal vacuum is easy to use, easy to see, easy to understand , & gets it close but isn’t the end all be all as far as equal power side to side goes. Equal vacuum can be had with one side cylinder not even firing but equal power is what the rider feels. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I guess I'm the one who makes the most loud noises about the value of tuning with dual vacuum gauges and the importance of under-load testing.--- Probably so as most of us like a bit more precision than plain old inches of mercury vacuum gauges give us. Vacuum gauges are just great on multi cylinders above 2 as using a U tube on a 3 or 4 cylinder engine is down right complicated but on a 360° boxer nothing is easier to use or as accurate as the simple & cheap U tube liquid manometer. You can even road-load tune with a short U tube if the balance is set close statically before doing the dynamic part. I’m not opposed to turning under load but I don’t use engine vacuum for road load tuning as all that vacuum shows is equal vacuum not equal power side to side. The thing is to strive for equal power side to side not equal vacuum. Equal vacuum is easy to use, easy to see, easy to understand , & gets it close but isn’t the end all be all as far as equal power side to side goes. Equal vacuum can be had with one side cylinder not even firing but equal power is what the rider feels. Have you tested to see if you continue to get equal vacuum with one cylinder not functioning right? Easy enough to test with some bikes although I can't remember trying it myself. How do you measure equal power? Unhitch one con rod? I wish I knew how. Ben Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 dirtrider - How to you tune for equal power from both cylinders rather than the dumb old way we've all been doing it using vacuum balance? Ben Link to comment
biometrics Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ben, I just finished reading your "Bike Writings"... Your concept of using a vacuum reservoir got me to thinking... Could the original charcoal cannister be used for this purpose as a vacuum reservoir, if you already have disconnected it from the system, or have performed a Cannisterectomy? Of course after remounting the cannister, you would have to plug the third hose opening, but the device is about the size of an aerisol can, and it already has a convenient mounting place on the RT frame. Whatyathink? Anyone else's comments on doing this to achieve an intake crossover are also welcomed... Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ben, I just finished reading your "Bike Writings"... Your concept of using a vacuum reservoir got me to thinking... Could the original charcoal cannister be used for this purpose as a vacuum reservoir, if you already have disconnected it from the system, or have performed a Cannisterectomy? Of course after remounting the cannister, you would have to plug the third hose opening, but the device is about the size of an aerisol can, and it already has a convenient mounting place on the RT frame. Whatyathink? Anyone else's comments on doing this to achieve an intake crossover are also welcomed... I must plead ignorance both about the charcoal canisters and about the fine points of gas flow. But sure sounds clever. A plenum has to work better than just a pipe. But the stock hoses are pretty small (as is the vacuum port). But I use the biggest hoses I can for the cross-over I added. I've been putting cross-overs on these boxers for 40 years or so. Well into the normal operating range, even a small pipe can convey a significant amount of balance air to enhance balance the TBs. If your balance is perfect at all speeds and loads and you confirm it each morning before starting out, you have no need of a balance pipe (ho, ho, ho). On the other hand if it isn't, wouldn't it be nice to have an automatic balancer? Ben Link to comment
biometrics Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks for your opinion Ben, I think I will try this the next time I take the "tupperware" off for any maintenance tasks... Anyone else think this will work? Not Work? Please chime in... Link to comment
dirtrider Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Afternoon biometrics To me it sounds like a solution to problem that doesn’t exist. Most of us use precision U tubes or other precision vacuum measuring devices so get the idle & off idle balance about perfect so no need to try to get the other side to provide pulsating unmetered air entry to cover a poor balance procedure. Ducati comes to mind, some of the fuel injected Ducati’s came with a fairly large diameter crossover tube between the TB’s. That ragged unmetered air drove the just off idle fueling & runability crazy. Some would plug that crossover tube completely off to get a decent running engine just off idle. Then others (like myself) would just shove a small hole carburetor metering jet in each end of that hose to make the off-idle runability smoother. It looks like Ducati was paying attention as they started adding cross over tube restrictors to the later models. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Afternoon biometrics To me it sounds like a solution to problem that doesn’t exist. Most of us use precision U tubes or other precision vacuum measuring devices so get the idle & off idle balance about perfect so no need to try to get the other side to provide pulsating unmetered air entry to cover a poor balance procedure. Ducati comes to mind, some of the fuel injected Ducati’s came with a fairly large diameter crossover tube between the TB’s. That ragged unmetered air drove the just off idle fueling & runability crazy. Some would plug that crossover tube completely off to get a decent running engine just off idle. Then others (like myself) would just shove a small hole carburetor metering jet in each end of that hose to make the off-idle runability smoother. It looks like Ducati was paying attention as they started adding cross over tube restrictors to the later models. Dirtrider is one of those fortunate people whose balance is always perfect at all speeds and conditions. Maybe if I can get some experience tuning boxers, I can say the same someday. Betcha a ride around the town and a liquid manometer would show bike is a wee degree out of balance. Anybody ever tried that? A bit of a yuk-yuk that Dirtrider is comparing the balance tubes on a one-potato-two-potato engine with a boxer. Ummmmm, don't know about that. I suppose it might help although at idle is where it is most likely to be disturbing rather than helpful. Funny, the later generations of Japanese vertical multis had balance tubes between their carbs (very simple if you think about the 720 degree layout of such an engine). I wonder why? But too unsightly for BMW, I suppose. All joking aside, I cry whenever I hear somebody say their boxer vibrates and worse, when they say they all do. Nonsense. Boxers don't have perfect balance, but smoothness is one of their greatest features and anybody who wants to ride all day should really try to make 'em smooth. Ben great weather in Toronto... terrible week for the Toronto International Film Festival. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Betcha a ride around the town and a liquid manometer would show bike is a wee degree out of balance. Anybody ever tried that? Ben What I meant to say is that liquid manometers are so sensitive that they would read even small imbalances, like after you just went for a short ride. Small and not small imbalances are always present except at the moment just before you tighten the Bowden cable locknut after doing the synch. So you might as well just install an automatic balancer tube for all those other moments. What do you think those vacuum ports are for? Ben Link to comment
Selden Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I’m not opposed to turning under load but I don’t use engine vacuum for road load tuning as all that vacuum shows is equal vacuum not equal power side to side. The thing is to strive for equal power side to side not equal vacuum. Equal vacuum is easy to use, easy to see, easy to understand , & gets it close but isn’t the end all be all as far as equal power side to side goes. Equal vacuum can be had with one side cylinder not even firing but equal power is what the rider feels. Normally, your explanations are a delight to read, but you lost me on this one. Not a rhetorical question: How do you measure equal power side to side, as opposed to equal vacuum? Link to comment
philbytx Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Well, I did it today! Darth needed a 6k service and I decided to "go both ways" for the first time ! As per usual, I did a valve adjust and full TBS using my Morgan Carbtune, with the bike stationary. I balanced it pretty darn perfectly. Idle was perfect, just OFF idle was perfect and I had equal columns all the way up to 7k, with my anality focussed on 3k to 5k. Giving Ben's method a try, I then rode the bike for just over a mile and a half with the Carbtune still connected and discovered that my anal stationary set-up was, again, perfect. Apparently, if you haven't got a bike dyno (and even then!), riding your nekkid RT (or any other Boxer) around and fiddling with it on the go will, apparently, not improve any upon doing your TBS when the bike is stationary. YMMV Link to comment
dirtrider Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 power[/i] side to side, as opposed to equal vacuum? Evening Selden You measure even vacuum side to side but you set equal power side to side. To prove the point you can completely remove the spark plug wire to one side spark plug & still easily set the vacuum even side to side even though one cylinder isn’t firing at all. What does this prove? That equal vacuum doesn’t always equate to even power side to side. Setting equal power takes knowing the bike & engine’s good & bad characteristics, then adjusting until best possible is obtained at road load. Link to comment
Selden Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 You measure even vacuum side to side but you set equal power side to side.... Setting equal power takes knowing the bike & engine’s good & bad characteristics, then adjusting until best possible is obtained at road load. Arggh, I feel like I'm having a conversation with Yoda. It's still clear as mud, and I still don't understand the difference between "measuring vacuum" and "setting power". Link to comment
dirtrider Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 [Arggh, I feel like I'm having a conversation with Yoda. It's still clear as mud, and I still don't understand the difference between "measuring vacuum" and "setting power". Evening again Selden That’s not “setting power” it’s setting "equal power". (or at least perceived "equal power") Check your PM for more detail. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 [Arggh, I feel like I'm having a conversation with Yoda. It's still clear as mud, and I still don't understand the difference between "measuring vacuum" and "setting power". Evening again Selden That’s not “setting power” it’s setting "equal power". (or at least perceived "equal power") Check your PM for more detail. I've been asking you for your secret method of setting equal power (without disconnecting the con rods) for several weeks. Dyin' to learn. Accelerometer set cross-wise on the saddle? Strobe on the flywheel to locate alternate pulse marks? Could you please send me the secret method PM also. Or even share it with everybody. With one cylinder not firing, do you really get the same vacuum on both sides? Doesn't sound right but then I haven't tried it, at least not intentionally. Thanks. Ben Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 snip Apparently, if you haven't got a bike dyno (and even then!), riding your nekkid RT (or any other Boxer) around and fiddling with it on the go will, apparently, not improve any upon doing your TBS when the bike is stationary. YMMV A scientist who can derive such a universal truth from such a modest experiment deserves a Nobel. Ben Link to comment
philbytx Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Universal truth and Nobel Ben? Don't be snide..... - Apparently - YMMV So, why not bring your bike down here and then we could tune it together (perhaps we might both learn something) and THEN I would be happy to add another one to the data . And, have you ever considered that you could possibly be going down the wrong path? But, then again, you ARE a retired academic (is there such a thing) ! Link to comment
EffBee Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 To everyone: Alright, we need to tone this down. Discuss the mechanical and theoretical of TB Syncs and vacuum gauges, but keep the snide remarks, condescension and drama out of it. This isn't about how much academia one has or doesn't have in their background. It's about courtesy, sharing, and helping without waving a superiority flag. You should be engaged here because helping your fellow board members truly comes from your heart. For many of you, that's clearly in your words and/or can be read between the lines. Thank you. Any other motivation, or tone, does not interest this board. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Balance in the boxers has been a pre-occupation of mine for decades. I've dynamically balanced flywheels, weighed engine bits, trimmed con rods, switched carbs and carb bits, tuned using every feasible method (with ATF stains on my garage floor from liquid manometers), used lab strobes on rotating parts, done compression tests, shifted CRs, etc. That's why I am keen to learn dirtrider's (or anybody's) method for balancing for power, not vacuum at the intake. And by way of apology, am not patient as I should be with conclusions drawn from single, brief road tests. Ben perfect riding weather in Toronto.. too bad I am under my Subaru Impreza installing a HD anti-sway bar and end-links Link to comment
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