LEOs - When are children present?

[Bill_Walker]

Here in California, and in many other states I've been, the signs around schools say "Speed Limit 25 mph - When Children Are Present".

 

What's the definition of "when children are present"? Does it mean "when children are visible", or "when school is in session"? If the latter, how are you supposed to know?

[David13]

I have had the same thought, Bill.

I think they believe there are just some things that all people should know.

dc

[russell_bynum]

Here in California, and in many other states I've been, the signs around schools say "Speed Limit 25 mph - When Children Are Present".

 

What's the definition of "when children are present"? Does it mean "when children are visible", or "when school is in session"? If the latter, how are you supposed to know?

 

It's completely idiotic. The whole point of a school zone speed limit is so people slow down so they don't run over kids that they didn't see. If you can see that kids are present, then you're not going to run over them.

 

Here's what I believe to be the relevant section of the VC: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22358_4.htm

 

So...you have to apparently know that kids are going to/from school (vs. merely walking past the school), decide if they're behind an appropriate fence or gate, etc. And does it count if the kids are going to use the playground or sports fields attached to the school after hours?

 

In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

[Lawman]

In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

In Texas we tell our kids to stay out of the road

[russell_bynum]

In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

In Texas we tell our kids to stay out of the road

 

We have crossing guards....AT HIGH SCHOOLS.

 

I'm sorry but if you are in high school and can't cross the damn street (35mph speed limit normally. 25mph "when children are present") without getting run over, you're just screwed. These are people who are old enough to have a driver's license, but we think they need help crossing the street.

[Lawman]

:rofl:

[JustJean]

Okay so I thought lawman was going to give an explanation, so when I saw his answer I died laughing.

That's funny there boy!

[Quinn]

You'll have more time to react if they're slow children playing. That way they can grow up and become slow men working.

 

----

 

 

[upflying]

I use 22352(a)(2)(B) as the citing section.

 

22352. (a) The prima facie limits are as follows and shall be

applicable unless changed as authorized in this code and, if so

changed, only when signs have been erected giving notice thereof:

(1) Fifteen miles per hour:

(A) When traversing a railway grade crossing, if during the last

100 feet of the approach to the crossing the driver does not have a

clear and unobstructed view of the crossing and of any traffic on the

railway for a distance of 400 feet in both directions along the

railway. This subdivision does not apply in the case of any railway

grade crossing where a human flagman is on duty or a clearly visible

electrical or mechanical railway crossing signal device is installed

but does not then indicate the immediate approach of a railway train

or car.

(B) When traversing any intersection of highways if during the

last 100 feet of the driver's approach to the intersection the driver

does not have a clear and unobstructed view of the intersection and

of any traffic upon all of the highways entering the intersection for

a distance of 100 feet along all those highways, except at an

intersection protected by stop signs or yield right-of-way signs or

controlled by official traffic control signals.

© On any alley.

(2) Twenty-five miles per hour:

(A) On any highway other than a state highway, in any business or

residence district unless a different speed is determined by local

authority under procedures set forth in this code.

(B) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds

thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL"

warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school

either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The

prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any

school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence,

gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by

children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning

sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning

signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school

grounds.

© When passing a senior center or other facility primarily used

by senior citizens, contiguous to a street other than a state highway

and posted with a standard "SENIOR" warning sign. A local authority

is not required to erect any sign pursuant to this paragraph until

donations from private sources covering those costs are received and

the local agency makes a determination that the proposed signing

should be implemented. A local authority may, however, utilize any

other funds available to it to pay for the erection of those signs.

(b) This section shall become operative on March 1, 2001.

 

 

[Lawman]

You'll have more time to react if they're slow children playing. That way they can grow up and become slow men working.

 

----

 

 

I always thought that "slow children playing" was referring to those kids who just take a little bit longer to catch on...

[tallman]

It isn't so much that we think they need help crossing the street, it is the fact that if anything happens related to crossing the street a lawsuit will ensue.

Kid runs across, trips and fall, school system is at fault.

Car hits one?

Shoulda had a crossing and a psoted school zone...

Remember, we say that when riding a bike no amount of conspicuity will help (something like if one is relying on XX for drivers to see us we're screwed, rihgt?) so drive in a manner such as Y.

So by the same reasoning, those drivers who pull out in fron of or cut off motorcyclists, school buses, ambulances, et al. could pose a threat to pedestirans.

Our high school is on a US highway and the speed limits are 60/55 around it.

The posted school zone drops that to 25 mph and aorund here it is flashing shen that speed limit is in effect.

Despite markings, signs, guards, flashing lights, etc. there are still idiots who blast through zones "when children are present" and the students/staff/families/visiotrs need protection (regardless of street crossing skill).

Best wishes.

[Bill_Walker]

I use 22352(a)(2)(B) as the citing section.

...

(B) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds

thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL"

warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school

either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The

prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any

school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence,

gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by

children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning

sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning

signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school

grounds.

...

 

So, basically, it's "see children on your side of the fence, go 25", since different schools have different hours and they're not posted.

[Bill_Walker]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

I have to wonder, though, Russell, given your incessant bitching about it, why do you still live in California?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Kid runs across, trips and fall, school system is at fault.

 

[hijack]

There's an exciting job opportunity out there for that kid.

[/hijack]

[russell_bynum]

It isn't so much that we think they need help crossing the street, it is the fact that if anything happens related to crossing the street a lawsuit will ensue.

Kid runs across, trips and fall, school system is at fault.

Car hits one?

Shoulda had a crossing and a psoted school zone...

Remember, we say that when riding a bike no amount of conspicuity will help (something like if one is relying on XX for drivers to see us we're screwed, rihgt?) so drive in a manner such as Y.

So by the same reasoning, those drivers who pull out in fron of or cut off motorcyclists, school buses, ambulances, et al. could pose a threat to pedestirans.

Our high school is on a US highway and the speed limits are 60/55 around it.

The posted school zone drops that to 25 mph and aorund here it is flashing shen that speed limit is in effect.

Despite markings, signs, guards, flashing lights, etc. there are still idiots who blast through zones "when children are present" and the students/staff/families/visiotrs need protection (regardless of street crossing skill).

Best wishes.

 

Do the crossing guards actually help with that problem? I know they don't help here. People still rip down the road way too fast. If they see people in the crosswalk, they stop (often abruptly). My favorite is when the right lane stops because people are crossing, but the people in the left lane aren't bright enough to figure out that those other cars are stopped at a crosswalk for a reason...so they whip around and go roaring through in the left lane.

 

I understand the liability thing. That's a different problem (too many underemployed lawyers, for starters) but functionally I just don't see the benefit of a crossing guard for people who are old enough (or almost old enough) to be driving cars themselves. I get it at the crosswalk by the elementary school. Or...I would if kids were actually walking to school by themselves...which they aren't...there's always a parent with them.

 

Aside: I'd love to see a tally of stuff that we're no allowed to do anymore because someone is (probably legitimately) affraid that they might be sued. And I'd like to see a tally of how much we spend implementing silly "fixes" for the sole purpose of being able to tell the bloodsucking lawyers that "we tried."

[russell_bynum]

I use 22352(a)(2)(B) as the citing section.

...

(B) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds

thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL"

warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school

either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The

prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any

school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence,

gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by

children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning

sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning

signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school

grounds.

...

 

So, basically, it's "see children on your side of the fence, go 25", since different schools have different hours and they're not posted.

 

How the hell am I supposed to know if the grounds are in use by children? Are the kids out and about because they're walking past the school, or because they're walking to/from the school? Or does the sidewalk in front of the school count as "School grounds"? And...is the park with the soccer field that is frequently used during off-school hours considered part of "School grounds" or not?

 

There's a school zone near us that has those flashing orange lights by the sign...which sounds great except that those lights are on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Which means that they mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored.

[russell_bynum]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

I have to wonder, though, Russell, given your incessant bitching about it, why do you still live in California?

 

Because I like California (geography, climate, etc.) California is not the problem. The problem is all of the other idiots who live here who insist on having all of these idiotic laws that don't make any sense and don't solve any problems.

[Jerry in Monument]

Kid runs across, trips and fall, school system is at fault.

 

[hijack]

There's an exciting job opportunity out there for that kid.

[/hijack]

 

That dude's got the coordination of a cub bear picking fly poop out of pepper with boxing gloves on.

[BailyD]

some signs having a flashing amber light when the school zone is active...

[upflying]

For the record, my personal best in a school zone was 79 mph in a 25 mph zone. Four lane road, normally posted at 35. This was directly in front of an elementary school full of children, 10 min before the morning bell.

Had him on lidar about 600' away.

I only enforce the SZ limits 30 min before school starts and after school ends.

[BailyD]

A few months ago I was observing a traffic signal next to the school entrance (about 9-10 am) when a guy nearly crashed into another car. I captured the near miss on video, then stopped the driver.....hammered drunk!

[David13]

I guess the lesson there is, if something looks suspicious, there's probably a reason for it.

dc

[wbrissette]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

FYI, this also seems only to apply to public schools. My daughter goes to a Lutheran school which is much bigger than the public school next to it. But the lights only flash for the public school. I have seen other school signs around a few of the private schools around town, but never a school zone sign unless a public school was located close by. I'm not sure what the reasoning for this is, but that's how it is here in TX (or at least the Austin area).

 

Wayne

[Danny S]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

I have to wonder, though, Russell, given your incessant bitching about it, why do you still live in California?

 

+1

[tallman]

In Florida a private school can request signage for a school zone.

In some cases (relative to size and location) the same flashing light set up is used as at the typical public school zone.

 

Some simply state, or used to, "when flashing" to activate school zone speed limit and remove any doubt about "when children are present" means.

 

I tend to err on the side of caution.

Maybe because my first day as a school patrol in 5th grade I had a cyclist hit right in front of

me and killed in the school zone.

[Green RT]

For the record, my personal best in a school zone was 79 mph in a 25 mph zone. ...

 

When I first read your post, I didn't notice who it was and I thought you were bragging.

[Lawman]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

I have to wonder, though, Russell, given your incessant bitching about it, why do you still live in California?

 

+1

 

For the sake of California I hope he is willing to continue to make the sacrifice. For all I know if he were to leave, the statement I've heard so many times;"only nuts live in California", might very well be true.

[MotorinLA]

...In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

That makes way more sense, I have to admit. Here, we have some that have scheduled flashing lights, but the sign still says "when children are present"!

 

I have to wonder, though, Russell, given your incessant bitching about it, why do you still live in California?

 

+1

 

That one is easy. It's the only state that allows lane splitting...

[MotorinLA]

Just slow down to 25mph in the School Zone Mon-Fri 8am-4pm and you don't have to worry about it. I don't see the big mystery here...

[russell_bynum]

Just slow down to 25mph in the School Zone Mon-Fri 8am-4pm and you don't have to worry about it. I don't see the big mystery here...

 

That's not what the law says.

 

And...wouldn't I also have to slow down if kids are out and about due to after-school stuff like sporting events? When I pass the local high school on the way to pick up Steven (after 5pm) I frequently see the cross country team out for a run around the school. If I encounter them in the school zone. Do I have to slow down?

[outpost22]

I got a ticket for doing 35 in a 35 zone.

 

You guessed it. "20 mph, when children are present". The issue was that I was doing 20 mph for the two blocks driving by the school. After that there were NO kids and a posted 35 mph sign. Cop pulls me over for a "violation". I asked him what does "children present" mean? He said, they were still visible in my rear view mirror!!!!

 

I responded, "are they going to suddenly run 2 blocks to get in front of me at 35 mph???"

 

You guessed it: $150.00 ticket in 1981. I had out of state plates. Do you think that might of had something to do with it?

[ghaverkamp]

That's not what the law says.

 

And...wouldn't I also have to slow down if kids are out and about due to after-school stuff like sporting events? When I pass the local high school on the way to pick up Steven (after 5pm) I frequently see the cross country team out for a run around the school. If I encounter them in the school zone. Do I have to slow down?

 

So, why not slow down if kids are around? Kids dash out in front of cars. They're often difficult to see, because quite often, kids are small. Kids often play games with rolling things called balls that they like to chase. Sometimes they just chase themselves and lose sight of what's going on.

 

Frankly, I think it's pretty silly to blame lawyers, though I know they're the easy targets of those who don't know any better. It's not lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding lower speed limits. It's not lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding speed bumps. It's no lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding more traffic patrols. Most of the time, its parents. So really, you're the problem.

[tallman]

I think this is still controlling, in Florida.

 

 

Number: AGO 76-63

Date: March 23, 1976

Subject: Authority to set school zone speed limits

 

"County school officials are not authorized by statute to

establish school zones and school zone speed limits for

traffic control purposes. Whenever safety hazards exist in

the circumstances prescribed in S., which

have not been corrected by the Department of Transportation

or local authorities (county and municipal) responsible for

traffic safety, whichever has original jurisdiction over

the involved road or street, the district school board is

required to take or cause to be taken such precautions as

may be necessary to safeguard the pupils."

 

 

Not exactly the parents storming a city council meeting.

Statutory mandates or Advisory Legal Opinions are generally written by lawyers.

[ghaverkamp]

Not exactly the parents storming a city council meeting.

Statutory mandates or Advisory Legal Opinions are generally written by lawyers.

 

I have no idea what your point is.

[russell_bynum]

That's not what the law says.

 

And...wouldn't I also have to slow down if kids are out and about due to after-school stuff like sporting events? When I pass the local high school on the way to pick up Steven (after 5pm) I frequently see the cross country team out for a run around the school. If I encounter them in the school zone. Do I have to slow down?

 

So, why not slow down if kids are around? Kids dash out in front of cars. They're often difficult to see, because quite often, kids are small. Kids often play games with rolling things called balls that they like to chase. Sometimes they just chase themselves and lose sight of what's going on.

 

These aren't kids, they're in high school. And they're not playing randomly with balls...they're the cross-country team out for a practice run. In other words...there is no reason not to expect them to be predictable and behave like all the other runners we pass in that area.

 

And there's often a difference between "Slow down because there's kids/people/etc and I'm not sure what they're doing." and "Slow down because the speed limit is 25mph, it is aggressively enforced, and the fines are steep." When I drive through a school zone near our house at 8pm and there's parents and kids around because there is a park with sports fields next to the school...of course I'm going to slow down. Speed limit is 50mph and I'm going to drop to probably 35-40 because that's reasonable for the situation. But...is that within the law or does the law require that I slow down to 25mph? There are kids out there, but not because of the school.

 

 

The law seems silly to me so I'm trying to understand exactly what it is that I'm required to do.

 

If I pass the school at 5pm and the cross-country team is out for a run and I don't slow down and I got a ticket, would that ticket stand up in court?

 

What if it's just a random person running by who may or may not be a student?

 

What about the park that's in the school zone?

 

The law doesn't say anything about students...it says "Children". So...if they're students who are over 18 years old, do I have to slow down?

 

I'm just trying to understand the law so that I make an educated decision whether or not to adhere to it on a case-by-case basis.

 

It would be easier if the law was simple: Slow down if the lights are flashing or if you're within the days/times specified on the sign. But that's not what the law says and I'm trying to understand exactly what it is that I'm supposed to do. So far I've gotten advice from a LEO that, from where I'm sitting, would have me busting the school zone speed limit every morning on the way to work (When I've seen people get pulled over for speeding through the school zone.) So...it seems to me that even the police don't know what the law says.

 

Frankly, I think it's pretty silly to blame lawyers, though I know they're the easy targets of those who don't know any better. It's not lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding lower speed limits. It's not lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding speed bumps. It's no lawyers who go marching into city council meetings demanding more traffic patrols. Most of the time, its parents. So really, you're the problem.

 

Parents don't write the laws...lawyers do.

 

"People need to slow down near the school because they're going to run over my kid." Is something a parent would say.

 

In response, legislators work with lawyers to write a law to implement that request. Poor implementation of the request can only be blamed on legislatures and lawyers.

[ghaverkamp]

It would be easier if the law was simple: Slow down if the lights are flashing or if you're within the days/times specified on the sign. But that's not what the law says and I'm trying to understand exactly what it is that I'm supposed to do. So far I've gotten advice from a LEO that, from where I'm sitting, would have me busting the school zone speed limit every morning on the way to work (When I've seen people get pulled over for speeding through the school zone.) So...it seems to me that even the police don't know what the law says.

 

How could the law be any simpler? You quoted it above. I assume you read it. The language is plain.

 

You can ask cops all day long how they'll enforce it, but cops don't enforce laws uniformly (themselves, or across the legion of them.)

 

So, read the law. It's pretty clear what it means. If you want to defend yourself in court, that's what you're going against.

[russell_bynum]

It would be easier if the law was simple: Slow down if the lights are flashing or if you're within the days/times specified on the sign. But that's not what the law says and I'm trying to understand exactly what it is that I'm supposed to do. So far I've gotten advice from a LEO that, from where I'm sitting, would have me busting the school zone speed limit every morning on the way to work (When I've seen people get pulled over for speeding through the school zone.) So...it seems to me that even the police don't know what the law says.

 

How could the law be any simpler? You quoted it above. I assume you read it. The language is plain.

 

You can ask cops all day long how they'll enforce it, but cops don't enforce laws uniformly (themselves, or across the legion of them.)

 

So, read the law. It's pretty clear what it means. If you want to defend yourself in court, that's what you're going against.

 

I don't think it is clear at all....hence all of my example scenarios and questions.

[ghaverkamp]

I don't think it is clear at all....hence all of my example scenarios and questions.

 

Your hypotheticals suggest you haven't read it. I don't see how it could be clearer.

 

What is not plain in "while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period" or "when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children"?

 

Let's see, you said:

you have to apparently know that kids are going to/from school (vs. merely walking past the school)

 

You don't have to know. However, you're responsible for adhering to the lowered speed limit under those conditions.

 

In those rare cases where you bump into hordes of children walking past a school during school hours, but who are so near it that you can't tell if they coming, going, or walking past, then you're going to have to make a judgment call. In the worst case, you might even needlessly slow down. How will you ever regain those seconds?

 

decide if they're behind an appropriate fence or gate, etc.

 

I don't see where it places any burden on you to determine the appropriateness of a fence or gate. You might be forced to actually make a judgment about whether a fence, gate, or other physical barrier is between you and the school. Man, the things the state forces you to determine...

 

And does it count if the kids are going to use the playground or sports fields attached to the school after hours?

 

I don't see how this could be clearer. "[W]hile the grounds are in use by children."

 

In Texas the signs either have a day/time range where the limit applies (something like 7-9am 2-4pm M-F) or there are yellow lights and the limit applies "when flashing". Apparently that was way too simple for the brain donors that run California.

 

You mean, the ones that wrote such complex, yet simple language that you claim you can't figure out?

 

Obviously, the California law is targeted at enforcing school zones whenever children are using school facilities, not only during the hours of pre-programmed flashing lights. Yes, that doesn't require some discretion on the parts of drivers.

 

How the hell am I supposed to know if the grounds are in use by children? Are the kids out and about because they're walking past the school, or because they're walking to/from the school? Or does the sidewalk in front of the school count as "School grounds"? And...is the park with the soccer field that is frequently used during off-school hours considered part of "School grounds" or not?

 

Are the kids using school grounds? Then slow down. It's not complicated. It's not a question put forth to fool you. Is "using" really so complex that you can't figure out how to deal? Is the park part of the school grounds? If it's not, then again, what the hell is so complicated?

 

 

There's a school zone near us that has those flashing orange lights by the sign...which sounds great except that those lights are on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Which means that they mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored

 

No. It means that it's a school zone 24/7/365, and if kids are present and using the facilities, then you have to slow down.

 

Sometimes, life is more complicated than a flashing light on a timer.

[Witch_Doctor]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

Survival of the fittest, if you run out chasing a bouncy round toy and get splat, well that just thins the herd.

 

When I was a kid my parents taught me to look both ways before crossing the street, don't run out into traffic, and don't play near the street. Of course when I was a kid, my curfew was when the street lights came on. Mom didn't call my cell, she yelled my name, and if she had to yell my name i was in trouble because I was late. I played outside with friends, and not online. If I didn't eat what my mom cooked then I didn't eat. Sanitizer didn't exist, but you could get your mouth washed out with soap. I rode a bike without a helmet, getting dirty was OK, and neighbors gave a darn as much as your parents did.

 

Guess in Kommiefornia, schools are meant to be babysitters as opposed to an institutions of learning.

 

 

 

 

 

[tallman]

"Guess in Kommiefornia, schools are meant to be babysitters as opposed to an institutions of learning"

 

not to hijack, but that statement shows a woeful lack knowledge about today's world of education.

This covers local board policies passed in response to state and federal requirements (including the current administration's "Race to the Top".

Not attacking you, if you don't work in the field you might not know things like; statutory requirements and unfunded mandates for policies on dating, bullying, sexual harrassment, reproduction and child rearing, life management skills, career research, virtual classes, "academies" (another world unto itself) and a plethora of other requirements.

The in loco parentis guidelines of the past have been replaced with full scale child rearing responsibility.

 

Back on topic, I was the Director of a private school for 20 years and have personal experience with school zone signage.

In Florida it isn't arbitrary policy dictated by hysterical parents.

There are rules and procedures to follow.

Those rules result in signage/lights/road markings that put a responsibility on all drivers and failure to comply is regulated by law enforcement.

I'm a fan of the "when flashing: approach.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

"Guess in Kommiefornia, schools are meant to be babysitters as opposed to an institutions of learning"

 

not to hijack, but that statement shows a woeful lack knowledge about today's world of education.

This covers local board policies passed in response to state and federal requirements (including the current administration's "Race to the Top".

Not attacking you, if you don't work in the field you might not know things like; statutory requirements and unfunded mandates for policies on dating, bullying, sexual harrassment, reproduction and child rearing, life management skills, career research, virtual classes, "academies" (another world unto itself) and a plethora of other requirements.

The in loco parentis guidelines of the past have been replaced with full scale child rearing responsibility.

 

As a native of Tallahassee, and a product of its public school system, Raa, Leon, and Florida State, with a sister who has spent the last 15 years as a techer at Lincoln, and a mother who just retired after spending the last 33 years as a teacher in Florida (Leon, Volousia, and Monroe counties), and many subsequent family friends throughout the Board, because, well Tallahassee isn't exactly a big town. I do fully understand the requirements that are placed on our school systems and our teachers, and the absurdity and bastardization of it. As I stated previously, "Guess in Kommiefornia, schools are meant to be babysitters as opposed to an institutions of learning," your entire post, that you apologized for hijacking, completely supports that simple statement. Sadly enough though, its not just in Kommiefornia, but its throughout the United States.

 

I am guessing with your 20 years experiance, if your from Tallahassee, you spent it at Maclay or NFC. Which though it is 20 years experiance, its not the same as that of a public school teacher or administrater. No offense meant, but its just not the same.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Personally the ambiguity of the Kommiefornia Law is horrendous. Here is the Florida Statute from Title 23. Fairly simple, as a majority of the law is designation of responsability by the DOT, signage, and with a very small portion that clearly states the minimum speeds, and when they can and can't be enforced.

 

316.1895 Establishment of school speed zones, enforcement; designation.—(1)(a) The Department of Transportation, pursuant to the authority granted under s. 316.0745, shall adopt a uniform system of traffic control devices and pedestrian control devices for use on the streets and highways in the state surrounding all schools, public and private.

(b) The Department of Transportation shall compile, publish, and transmit a manual containing all specifications and requirements with respect to the system of devices established pursuant to paragraph (a) to the governing body of each county and municipality in the state, and the Department of Transportation and each county and municipality in the state shall install and maintain such traffic and pedestrian control devices in conformity with such uniform system.

(2) Upon request from the appropriate local government, the Department of Transportation shall install and maintain such traffic and pedestrian control devices on state-maintained roads as prescribed in this section for all prekindergarten early-intervention schools that receive federal funding through the Headstart program.

(3)(a) A school zone located on a state-maintained primary or secondary road shall be maintained by the Department of Transportation. However, nothing herein shall prohibit the Department of Transportation from entering into agreements with counties or municipalities whereby the local governmental entities would maintain specified school zones on state-maintained primary or secondary roads.

(b) The county shall have the responsibility to maintain a school zone located outside of any municipality and on a county road.

© A municipality shall have the responsibility to maintain a school zone located in a municipality.

(d) For the purposes of this section, the term “maintained” with respect to any school zone means the care and maintenance of all school zone signs, markers, traffic control devices, and pedestrian control devices.

(4)(a) A school zone maintained by a county shall be periodically inspected by the county sheriff’s office or any other qualified agent to determine whether or not the school zone is being properly maintained.

(b) A school zone maintained by a municipality shall be periodically inspected by the municipal police department or any other qualified agent to determine whether or not the school zone is being properly maintained.

(5) A school zone speed limit may not be less than 15 miles per hour except by local regulation. No school zone speed limit shall be more than 20 miles per hour in an urbanized area, as defined in s. 334.03. Such speed limit may be in force only during those times 30 minutes before, during, and 30 minutes after the periods of time when pupils are arriving at a regularly scheduled breakfast program or a regularly scheduled school session and leaving a regularly scheduled school session.

(6) Permanent signs designating school zones and school zone speed limits shall be uniform in size and color, and shall have the times during which the restrictive speed limit is enforced clearly designated thereon. Flashing beacons activated by a time clock, or other automatic device, or manually activated may be used as an alternative to posting the times during which the restrictive school speed limit is enforced. Beginning July 1, 2008, for any newly established school zone or any school zone in which the signing has been replaced, a sign stating “Speeding Fines Doubled” shall be installed within the school zone. The Department of Transportation shall establish adequate standards for the signs and flashing beacons.

(7) Portable signs designating school zones and school zone speed limits shall be uniform in size and color. Such signs shall be erected on the roadway only during those hours when pupils are arriving at and leaving regularly scheduled school sessions. The Department of Transportation shall establish adequate standards for the signs.

(8) Nothing herein shall prohibit the use of automatic traffic control devices for the control of vehicular and pedestrian traffic at school crossings.

(9) All flags, belts, apparel, and devices issued, supplied, or furnished to pupils or persons acting in the capacity of school safety patrols, special school police, or special police appointed to control and direct traffic at or near schools, when used during periods of darkness, shall be made at least in part with retroreflective materials so as to be visible at night at 300 feet to approaching motorists when viewed under lawful low-beam headlights.

(10) A person may not drive a vehicle on a roadway designated as a school zone at a speed greater than that posted in the school zone in accordance with this section. Violation of the speed limits established pursuant to this section must be cited as a moving violation, punishable as provided in chapter 318.

[russell_bynum]

Let's see, you said:

you have to apparently know that kids are going to/from school (vs. merely walking past the school)

 

You don't have to know. However, you're responsible for adhering to the lowered speed limit under those conditions.

 

OK, fair enough.

 

 

In those rare cases where you bump into hordes of children walking past a school during school hours, but who are so near it that you can't tell if they coming, going, or walking past, then you're going to have to make a judgment call. In the worst case, you might even needlessly slow down. How will you ever regain those seconds?

 

It isn't an issue of lost seconds...it's not getting a big fat ticket from some overzealous LEO because their interpretation of a fuzzy law is different than mine.

 

And it apparently doesn't matter if it's school hours or not. My assumption is that the sidewalk in front of the school is considered "on school grounds" so anytime I see a child in a school zone and there isn't a fence between me and the child I have to slow down? Re: the park...I don't have the foggiest clue if the park next to the school is part of the school or not. If it isn't then I don't have to slow down?

 

Also....most of the school zones I go through are such that you pass the school zone sign and then a few hundred yards later you get to the school. Often, you can't see if there's kids there or not when you pass the school zone sign. What if there aren't any kids visible when I enter the school zone and then one comes out of a side street (this is a frequent thing at two of the school zones that I go through on my commute)? Is it OK if I slow down then, or am I breaking the law because I'm speeding in a school zone when children are present? (I think technically it is the latter, but that seems excessively stupid to me.)

 

And would I be correct in assuming that if the student is over 18 years old (and therefore not a child as far as the state is concerned) then I don't have to slow down? I realize I'm splitting hairs here, but if they took the time to write it the way they did then I have to assume that every word was carefully considered and is there for a reason.

 

 

Yes, that doesn't require some discretion on the parts of drivers.

 

That's the problem with fuzzy, poorly-written laws. If they require discretion on the part of drivers, that also means they require discretion on the part of enforcement (LEO's and the court). I don't have any problem with me getting a ticket when I'm willfully violating the law. I'm OK with getting a ticket if I'm unknowingly violating the law. But when I'm driving along aware of the law and believing that I'm operating within it, I shouldn't be ticketed because some LEO has a different interpretation of the screwed-up law than I do.

 

And yes...if that happens I can fight it in court...but that's a giant pain in the ass and is often not worth the time. I'd much rather just have a law that makes sense and doesn't leave anything to the imagination. I understand that there is a place for fuzzy laws since you can't define every single possible situation that may happen. But I don't think speed limits fall into that category.

[MotorinLA]

Yes, that doesn't require some discretion on the parts of drivers.

 

That's the problem with fuzzy, poorly-written laws. If they require discretion on the part of drivers, that also means they require discretion on the part of enforcement (LEO's and the court). I don't have any problem with me getting a ticket when I'm willfully violating the law. I'm OK with getting a ticket if I'm unknowingly violating the law. But when I'm driving along aware of the law and believing that I'm operating within it, I shouldn't be ticketed because some LEO has a different interpretation of the screwed-up law than I do.

 

And yes...if that happens I can fight it in court...but that's a giant pain in the ass and is often not worth the time. I'd much rather just have a law that makes sense and doesn't leave anything to the imagination. I understand that there is a place for fuzzy laws since you can't define every single possible situation that may happen. But I don't think speed limits fall into that category.

 

All speed laws in California, with the exception of the maximum 55 mph and maximum 65 mph limits, require discretion, so why would the school zone be any different?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Russell, but you do tend to complain about speed limits in general. Would you rather that LEOs enforced the posted speed limits strictly by number (which in your opinion in other posts, if I remember correctly, are often "artificially low" and "arbitrary"), or would you like a little slack and have a cushion of about 10-12 mph above the limit to work with, before you're cited?

 

I don't understand your argument. If you're that concerned about getting a ticket, then just drive according to the numbers posted by the side of the road. I think your problem is that you'd like to drive faster than most speed limits in general, which probably means that you're pushing the upper limit of what LEOs would consider "safe" on a frequent basis. You blame "the system" for requiring interpretation, but the simple solution is that you as an individual can avoid all these problems simply by adhering to the posted limit. If your interpretation of "safe" speed is generally too high, that's your personal problem, not a problem created by the system.

 

Just my $0.02.

[ghaverkamp]

That's the problem with fuzzy, poorly-written laws.

 

I can think of many laws that are written more plainly than the parts you're complaining about here. If there's fuzziness, it's all coming from you. There's only so much that can be put down to prevent people from responding to things like "when children are present" with responses like, "Well, what if they're not children?", which is basically what you've done.

 

Somehow, I doubt that the plain, clear language currently used in the law would be made better by paragraphs of additional definitions that I gather you think would add clarity.

 

You know how Texas defines a school crossing zone? "'School crossing zone' means a reduced-speed zone designated on a street by a local authority to facilitate safe crossing of the street by children going to or leaving a public or private elementary or secondary school during the time the reduced speed limit applies." Do you want to guess what one possible "time" the Texas Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices shows as an example?

 

"When Children Are Present"

 

The times, speeds, etc., are all up to the localities.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

All speed laws in California, with the exception of the maximum 55 mph and maximum 65 mph limits, require discretion, so why would the school zone be any different?

 

Huh?

 

I know about the "Basic speed law" (Don't get me started about that pile of crap.) But otherwise, I usually see pretty clear signage: 45mph. 35mph. etc. Not much room for discretion there. I do get a laugh out of the "End XXmph Speed Limit" signs. Why that's better than just telling you what the new speed limit is, I have no idea.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Russell, but you do tend to complain about speed limits in general. Would you rather that LEOs enforced the posted speed limits strictly by number (which in your opinion in other posts, if I remember correctly, are often "artificially low" and "arbitrary"), or would you like a little slack and have a cushion of about 10-12 mph above the limit to work with, before you're cited?

 

First: Yes...I think many speed limits are artificially low. 55mph on a long, straight, flat road with no intersections for miles is, for example, artificially low.

 

Second: There's a difference between "Here's the law. Break it at your own peril. (But _most_ LEO's will give you a bit of leeway.)" And "The law is fuzzy and hard to follow."

 

Third: For the record: except at high schools (because I really think that if you're in high school and you still can't cross the street or walk down the sidewalk without randomly darting into traffic then you've got much bigger problems.) I'm fully in favor of low speed limits around schools. (I'm also in favor of low speed limits in residential neighborhoods...for pretty much the same reasons.)

 

 

 

I don't understand your argument. If you're that concerned about getting a ticket, then just drive according to the numbers posted by the side of the road.

 

If that's what I'm supposed to do, then just make the speed limit 25mph near schools. Period.

 

 

I think your problem is that you'd like to drive faster than most speed limits in general, which probably means that you're pushing the upper limit of what LEOs would consider "safe" on a frequent basis.

 

I've been pulled over for speeding once in the last 11 years. I was legitimately speeding...although I will note that the limit had just changed from 55 to 45, it was a down-hill, and I was coasting down to the lower speed. In my opinion, what I was doing was reasonable, but there's no doubt that I was speeding and therefore the officer was in the right to ticket me. I'm guessing he was there due to resident complaints. Most people actually speed up through that section (In fact, when I was ticketed, I had several cars riding my ass since I was actually slowing down.) and I'm sure the residents (rightfully complained.) Given how fast most people go through there, I was a little peeved that he didn't cut me some slack...but again...there's no question as to what the speed limit was and that I was breaking it.

 

You blame "the system" for requiring interpretation, but the simple solution is that you as an individual can avoid all these problems simply by adhering to the posted limit.

 

My whole point is that the posted limit changes based on variables that are not always obvious. If, for example, I enter the school zone at 5pm (in other words...no expectation that kids would be coming/going/at school under normal circumstances) and I keep going the normal 50mph limit...and then a kid comes out of a side street heading for the school's playground, my understanding is that I'm now retroactively required to observe the 25mph school zone speed limit. If the kid is not going to the school's playground and is instead just walking to a friend's house, then I don't have to slow down. It seems to me that the only way I can be sure that I'm within the law, is I have to slow down to 25mph any time I'm in a school zone no matter what. If that's what I'm supposed to do...fine. But if that's the case, just post the speed limit at 25mph and be done with it.

 

If your interpretation of "safe" speed is generally too high, that's your personal problem, not a problem created by the system.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

See above. I have no problem with a low speed limit in school zones. This has nothing to do with my interpretation of what's safe.

[russell_bynum]

You know how Texas defines a school crossing zone? "'School crossing zone' means a reduced-speed zone designated on a street by a local authority to facilitate safe crossing of the street by children going to or leaving a public or private elementary or secondary school during the time the reduced speed limit applies." Do you want to guess what one possible "time" the Texas Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices shows as an example?

 

"When Children Are Present"

 

The times, speeds, etc., are all up to the localities.

 

 

All I know is that in every school zone I drove through in Texas the signs either said "When flashing" or they had specific days/times when the lowered limit was in effect.

 

There was no requirement for the driver to see if there were kids present, figure out if there's a fence, know if the school grounds are in use, etc.

[tallman]

Your guess is incorrect.

And, since I've taught or been an administrator at public, private, and parochial schools, all over the state, you're right, my experience isn't the same as a person whose background is limited to just public schools.

So thanks to your family for their contributions.

Between my wife and I, and 3 immediate relatives, we have over 210 years teaching and administration experience ranging from kindergarten to college Deans and a school district Superintendent.

Best wishes.

 

 

 

[MotorinLA]

Huh?

 

I know about the "Basic speed law" (Don't get me started about that pile of crap.) But otherwise, I usually see pretty clear signage: 45mph. 35mph. etc. Not much room for discretion there. I do get a laugh out of the "End XXmph Speed Limit" signs. Why that's better than just telling you what the new speed limit is, I have no idea.

 

 

There are only two maximum, or true absolute speed limits, in California. 55mph and 65mph. Given the fact that they later introduced the 70 mph speed limit, there is one exemption to the 65mph limit, but otherwise the following applies:

 

VC 22349

(a)Except as provided in Section 22356, no person may drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than 65 miles per hour.

 

(b)Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may drive a vehicle upon a two-lane, undivided highway at a speed greater than 55 miles per hour unless that highway, or portion thereof, has been posted for a higher speed by the Department of Transportation or appropriate local agency upon the basis of an engineering and traffic survey. For purposes of this subdivision, the following apply:

 

(1)A two-lane, undivided highway is a highway with not more than one through lane of travel in each direction.

 

(2)Passing lanes may not be considered when determining the number of through lanes.

 

©It is the intent of the Legislature that there be reasonable signing on affected two-lane, undivided highways described in subdivision (b) in continuing the 55 miles-per-hour speed limit, including placing signs at county boundaries to the extent possible, and at other appropriate locations.

 

 

 

In other words, on a two-lane road without a center divider, the absolute max speed is 55mph.

 

For all other types of roads (larger/wider/divided/etc.) the absolute max speed is 65 mph.

 

There are also prima facia speed limits for certain kinds of streets and roadway, which give a starting point for "safe speed" determination on those roads.

 

22352. (a) The prima facie limits are as follows and shall be applicable unless changed as authorized in this code and, if so changed, only when signs have been erected giving notice thereof:

(1) Fifteen miles per hour:

(A) When traversing a railway grade crossing, if during the last 100 feet of the approach to the crossing the driver does not have a clear and unobstructed view of the crossing and of any traffic on the railway for a distance of 400 feet in both directions along the railway. This subdivision does not apply in the case of any railway grade crossing where a human flagman is on duty or a clearly visible electrical or mechanical railway crossing signal device is installed but does not then indicate the immediate approach of a railway train or car.

(B) When traversing any intersection of highways if during the last 100 feet of the driver's approach to the intersection the driver does not have a clear and unobstructed view of the intersection and of any traffic upon all of the highways entering the intersection for a distance of 100 feet along all those highways, except at an intersection protected by stop signs or yield right-of-way signs or controlled by official traffic control signals.

© On any alley.

(2) Twenty-five miles per hour:

(A) On any highway other than a state highway, in any business or residence district unless a different speed is determined by local authority under procedures set forth in this code.

(B) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school

either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence,

gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning

signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school

grounds.

© When passing a senior center or other facility primarily used by senior citizens, contiguous to a street other than a state highway and posted with a standard "SENIOR" warning sign. A local authority is not required to erect any sign pursuant to this paragraph until donations from private sources covering those costs are received and the local agency makes a determination that the proposed signing should be implemented. A local authority may, however, utilize any other funds available to it to pay for the erection of those signs.

(b) This section shall become operative on March 1, 2001.

 

 

These are the base speeds. Then comes engineering surveys. State/county/municipal engineers survey a piece of roadway and determine if the max speed or prima facia speed is appropriate. They evaluate a large number of factors and then do a traffic survey. The traffic survey measures how fast normal flow of traffic moves on a given piece of roadway during regular traffic hours. Then they add in all the factors that legally justifies a lower or higher speed limit. This then becomes the posted speed limit.

 

So, since the posted speed limit is based on the traffic survey during normal conditions, there will be times when it is safe to go faster than the posted limit and times when it is unsafe to go as fast as the posted limit. This is where the basic speed law comes into play. At three o'clock in the morning on a Sunday, a safe speed in a 45mph zone may be 55mph. Conversely, when there is heavy fog, the safe speed in the same 45mph zone may be 20mph.

 

Thus,

 

22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the

highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.

 

That should clear it right up for you

 

[MotorinLA]

And I imagine you can thank the lawyers for the basic speed law... "Your honor, how can my client be held responsible? He was driving within the posted speed limit!"

 

Don't think you can argue that one, Greg