rob1100r Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Finally went for a decent ride w/ friends last week. We go nonstop for brunch, and as I pull into the diner parking lot I hear some noise (valves..?) Didn't hear it this morning when cold, but sure heard it now that the bike is hot. We go in, feast and gab for an hour, then go back out. No noise (except for 'normal' tensioner start up, will get back to that in a minute). We ride for a while then stop for gas, etc. Flip open the modular, theres the noise again. Well, it's been about 6k since last valve adj. maybe it's time (bike has 13K, got it about 4 yrs ago w/ 2K) I don't remember hearing this the last time out, last year which was late in the fall (cold out)... Monday night, check valves, stone cold engine of course, a couple exh. valves out a little. Adjust them and check rocker end play, it's within spec. I take it out for a 10 minute run up the road, I return, NO NOISE, HOORAY! Sooo, this morning I decide to ride to work. I work very close to home, so I take the long (fun) way (about 20 min.) I pull into work, the tapping is back Well, it's not the valves! I get in and jump online, looking up stuff about timing chain and tensioner noise, I come across this link: http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/Cam_Chain_Tensioner_Parts.pdf and to quote one part that sounds like what I have for noise, 'When the bike got warm, the idle sounded like a diesel tractor.' ...and after he replaced the left hand tensioner with an upgraded one, his comment, 'With the new part (only 50 miles so far), the few seconds of noise at startup is completely gone, it is quite at idle even when hot (the loudest thing is the light valve tappet noise, instead of the heavy noise I was used to).' I always thought the upgraded tensioner was just for the startup noise, but can it/will it cure chain noise like I have in general? A few days ago, I ordered the tensioner upgrade from Rubber Chicken Racing (Tom Cutter). I wanted to do this anyway, friend of mine is getting one as well. I can't imagine it should run that loud, it runs PERFECT, but the sound drives me nuts! Any thoughts or other things I should look for? Thanks..also note, oil changed every fall, 15-50 Mob.1 Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Afternoon Rob Not being able to hear the noise makes it difficult to tell what you are working with. Low oil pressure to one or both tensioners or a problematic tensioner can cause warn engine chain clatter. If you can track the noise to one side or the other then replacing the tensioner on that side would be a good starting place. When it comes to warm engine chain clatter there is just about as much chance it is the R/H tensoiner as the left. Definitely the left being more prevalent if only a start-up rattle but hot engine chain clatter can be from either side as drain back isn’t an issue on a running engine. You might also want to try a little heavier engine oil as a test-- something like a conventional 20W50. That 15w50 M-1 usually runs to the lower side of the 15w50 spec and oil’s like the older spec Castrol 20w50 can run closer to the high end of spec. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 I did pull the right tensioner, parts move, seems okay. My friend's 96 (when new) had an issue w/ the right tensioner sticking, long since taken care of it. I won't pull the left until the new one comes in...He runs the same M1 oil in his bike, no chain clatter..If push comes to shove I will try the 20/50..That 'diesel tractor' sound is a good description though! Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Rob Those tensioners can have a couple of issues. As you mentioned one is sticking, the other is overnight leak down (that gives you the start up clatter from the left hand side), the other is wear or oil leakage. Oil pressure to those tensioners keeps the chain tight so any leakage in the tensioner body to piston (or thin hot oil) can reduce the chain guide tension & allow chain clatter. You also have another tensioner on the front chain between the crankshaft & idler shaft. Years ago I have replace a couple of those on the 1100’s for front chain clatter (hot engine). That one is a bugger to find & isolate as you can’t get to it or isolate it easily. On the R/H tensoner, sometimes you can improve their function by installing a couple of small washers between the spring & body to shim the spring tension a bit. Added: I just noticed you have a R not an RT. Is your friends bike an RT? I have always noticed a bit more engine noise form the R than the RT’s due to lack of fairing covering the engine and noise reflection back from the windshield. Go lift the hood on your car while someone revs the engine, sounds a lot worse when you are standing or sitting right over the engine. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 My friends 96 is an 'R'...Hope to get that left side tensioner soon, probably put it in next week. I hope 'lefty' is the culprit! I'm kinda surprised to have this issue (if it even IS an issue) at all with low miles. When looking around about it, like on Advrider, those guys have noise like this for tons of miles, and some seem proud of it(!) Link to comment
bayne Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Seems like awful low miles for this, but your noise (diesel sounding knock when warm) sounds like it could be a worn shaft on the right side throttle body. Remove right side tupperware and press on throttle pulley with engine running, and see if it quiets down. Bing sells a rebuild kit. Link to comment
SKYGZR Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Seems like awful low miles for this, but your noise (diesel sounding knock when warm) sounds like it could be a worn shaft on the right side throttle body. Remove right side tupperware and press on throttle pulley with engine running, and see if it quiets down. Bing sells a rebuild kit. His machine is "naked"..nothing to remove. Link to comment
Sweendog Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 His machine is "naked"..nothing to remove. Naked machines! Shameful! Link to comment
David R Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Rob Snip You also have another tensioner on the front chain between the crankshaft & idler shaft. Years ago I have replace a couple of those on the 1100’s for front chain clatter (hot engine). That one is a bugger to find & isolate as you can’t get to it or isolate it easily. Snip Where is this tensioner located? Is it accessible with out taking the whole engine apart? I have a high RPM rattle that drives me nuts. It has got no worse since I have owned the bike. David Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Where is this tensioner located? Is it accessible with out taking the whole engine apart? I have a high RPM rattle that drives me nuts. It has got no worse since I have owned the bike. Morning David That front chain tensioner is under the front alternator mount cover (the metal one that’s behind the plastic belt cover) Basically the whole front of the engine has to come off, not rocket science but a bit more than basic external engine work. If you’re going there you really should have a good manual in your hands before starting the job. It’s very difficult to confirm that one is causing issues and just about comes down to an educated guess after all else is eliminated. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thank you for the above pic. Hope the tensioner I ordered didn't get lost in the mail, I think it went out Tue. via USPS Priority. Link to comment
David R Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thank you, I will try a stethoscope. I cab hear the noise in neutral too. David Link to comment
philbytx Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Err! Given the low mileage on the bike and starting from the silliest thing first: Have you held the TB throttle body cam's against their stops to see if that was the issue? My R has 18k on it and I just replaced the LH cam chain tensioner at the 18k service. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Phil, Nope, haven't tried checking the 'silliest thing' yet. I'd be surprised if that was it though, my noise is only with a hot engine. Did you change the LH tensioner just for startup noise or for chain noise in general? Just re-read thread, bayne mentions noise from throttle body is when warm, I should check this when I get a chance.. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 'UPDATE' Well last week I finally did the simple thing like bayne and philbytx mentioned, check the right TB. Got a wide blade flathead ready, went for a 20 min. ride to warm the bike up. Got back home, friend of mine (w/the'96 R) held bike, then I/we went around w/ screwdriver. Nice 'silky' sound off the jugs, very light (normal) valve noise on the valve covers, you could start to here my 'clacking' noise there...Then to the TB...WoW! That sucker was LOUD! Now I've heard of this before but since the low mileage...Thats why I initially thought valves (not a TB) or maybe even chain clatter due to a lazy tensioner (which I did replace, nice to have no startup noise!) After Googling around it seems there have been some TB's that did this in the 20K'ish range, so these things can (and do) happen..I wonder if my broken throttle cable at the Bowden box last year is any bit related...? Obviously without pulling it apart I won't know if it's just bushings or a worn shaft as well. I have NO problem replacing the unit w/a new one ($325). Bike is running perfect right now and this and next weekend I want to actually RIDE the thing and worry about the TB later. I can't see riding it like this for a while to be a problem, I've read that when the TB's are (really) bad you can't sync them good anymore, and I guess by that point maybe not even repairable..But yeah, like mentioned in earlier posts always check the simple things first... Link to comment
philbytx Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 It won't be wear.....not at your mileage and you don't need to buy a new TB either. You can use a Bing bushing kit . Did my R1100R tensioner as, imho, it was the smart thing to do. I also R&R'd it on my R1150RT a few years back. No noise.....no painful anticipatory thoughts either ! BTW - So it doesn't reoccur. When you do your TBS, you need to ensure that the cables have sufficient SLACK at both the twistgrip and TB end AFTER you finish the balancing act . Move the handlebars from side to side to ensure you have no cable binding. IIRC something silly, about 0.5MM, was the BMW book value. Mine has about 1.5MM play at the twistgrip...and no Clacking !! Link to comment
bayne Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 The Bing rebuild kit doesn't include a new bushing. I used one from McMaster- Carr, part # 6679K13. Link to comment
rob1100r Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I'm surprised bing doesn't supply the bushing...Mcmaster to the rescue! Link to comment
Selden Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 The Bing rebuild kit doesn't include a new bushing. I used one from McMaster- Carr, part # 6679K13. That's great to know. And, note that this part should be usable in any condition you can throw at it: Temperature Range -328° to +536° F Link to comment
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