Headlight Modulators - Good, Bad, Indifferent?

[David]

But, you toss off anecdotal evidence / experience / argument as though it were meaningless.

 

Yep. If it can't be verified in some way, it pretty much is meaningless to me. Same with deer whistles, oil threads, helmets, gear, and on and on the list goes.

 

We certainly don't do that in "Ride Well."

 

Yeah we do. At least I do. There's physics behind good Ride Well discussions.

 

Why is this different? Those of us with tens of thousands of miles of real life experience with headlight modulators count for nothing?

 

Yep. Pretty much. I give abslutely zero credence to thousands and thousands of miles of "real life experience" simply because people come to different conclusions about the same thing.

 

On the other hand, if this is just a "hobby horse" of yours regarding headlight modulators, well then we all understand that, because we all have our favorite ponies.

 

It's not a hobby horse. I'm the same ass about other unverified things.

 

By the way, where's my study on their effectiveness? It would be easy to study.

 

You all are pathetic. All this whining and no research. Just show me some stuff and I've already said that I'll jump onboard and join you. I don't care either way, but so far I've got nothing!

[smiller]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with or supporting the data, but a Google search for the two terms "daytime running lights" and "study" yields more data than you will want to read. While these aren't specifically studies of headlight modulators themselves an analysis of DRL effectiveness is probably the closest we're going to get on this subject. Most motorcycles already have DRL of course so it would be better to have data concerning the visibility improvement headlight modulation might cause over DRL alone, but in the absence of more specific studies it seems very logical that if one buys into the effectiveness of DRL then modulation of DRL is likely to be at least somewhat more effective (especially among a sea of cars with DRL .) Such a conclusion might not be purely scientific but it is also not purely anecdotal either.

[David]

Hah. You stepped right into that, Seth. If you read a little more widely, you'll discover that DRL as NOT that effective. They were toward the beginning, because they were different, but now in widespread use they are not. There's a fair amount of data on that.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. Next I'm hoping someone will stumble on the study done in Singapore on modulator effectiveness on motorcycles.

 

But I'll be damned if I'm going to do the homework for the Kookaid drinking modulator crowd.

[smiller]

If you read a little more widely, you'll discover that DRL as NOT that effective.

 

Oh yeah, I know, and I have read up on it and that's why I put in all the qualifications in my statement. I wasn't trying to necessarily support the effectiveness of DRL, just pointing out that there have been plenty of studies on the subject and the results (whether one agrees with them or not) are far from merely annecdotal. As usual there's plenty of hard data to conclusively prove both sides of the arguement.

[ghaverkamp]

Hah. You stepped right into that, Seth. If you read a little more widely, you'll discover that DRL as NOT that effective. They were toward the beginning, because they were different, but now in widespread use they are not. There's a fair amount of data on that.

 

One should be able to reasonably extrapolate from that, then, that motorcycles with modulators, which will likely always be "different," given the small number of motorcycles, wouldn't suffer the same problems.

 

I'm not a particularly big fan of modulators, but arguments like "I won't believe they work because the headlight modulator industry hasn't funded an exhaustive study to work the data to show me they work" seem a wee bit absurd to me.

 

I was being chased through SF by an older F4 (I think that's what it was) yesterday. He had a modulator, and it was annoying. But I did see him. Probably would have heard him and his loud pipe, too, though. Or seen his bright yellow bike.

 

As an aside, after we traded places in our race through traffic holes and stoplights, we met up. He commented that the Burgman had lots of storage, and it moved pretty well, causing him difficulty keeping up. Having just followed him through one of the few decent curves in this downtown ride, and had I seen this thread yesterday, I could have responded: "Perhaps if you wouldn't cross-control so badly, you wouldn't have a problem keeping up with a scooter. At least you have headlight modulator keeping you safe." I'm not sure where I'd put the disclaimer that most of my training came from non-professional instruction, some from web discussions.

[tallman]

There's always the old standby. The Hurt Report

"The problem of other motorists failing to observe motorcyclists apparently exists on several levels (see Motorist Awareness, page 31). An important Hurt Report finding was that conspicuous motorcycles and riders were less likely to have their right-of-way violated by other vehicles"

 

Personally, I find them annoying. However, I can understand why people would want to be conspicuous.

[David]

There's always the old standby. The Hurt Report

"The problem of other motorists failing to observe motorcyclists apparently exists on several levels (see Motorist Awareness, page 31). An important Hurt Report finding was that conspicuous motorcycles and riders were less likely to have their right-of-way violated by other vehicles"

 

Personally, I find them annoying. However, I can understand why people would want to be conspicuous.

 

Fine. Now how do you explain studies where incredibly conspicuous things (like apes on sidewalks) were completely missed by nearly every driver? And accident stats about the effectiveness of flashing lights and horns on emergency vehicles?

 

I'm not arguing that being conspicuous is helpful. I'm arguing about what it takes to be conspicuous, and even then, how utterly vapid such help can be. That's why it's a placebo.

 

And to you, Greg, I'd say this: we have to assume they are not effective unless we see evidence that they are.

 

So far nobody's shown it to me. I guess Google is down.

[ghaverkamp]

And to you, Greg, I'd say this: we have to assume they are not effective unless we see evidence that they are.

 

Why?

 

That aside, we've seen anecdotal evidence. Lots of folks here have chimed in to that effect. But it seems to me you want empirical evidence, which is usually interpreted by statistics, and we know that whichever side in this debate has the most money to lose would work to have the most effective analysis (see Mandatory Helmet Laws.)

 

How many studies have been published about the effectiveness of Roadcrafters? Why do you wear one?

[David]

And to you, Greg, I'd say this: we have to assume they are not effective unless we see evidence that they are.

 

Why?

 

If you are really serious in asking that question, I have nothing left to say. It's silly in the extreme.

 

If you are so sold on anecdotal evidence, how do you decide which anecdotal evidence to believe? Most riders know about modulators. Most "safety" boards recommend them. They are cheap and easy to install. Why don't most bikes have them? Why don't manufacturers install them in the interest of safety? Huh? Huh? The evidence is contradictory, and you want me to believe the minority, with no (to date, that someone can show me) empirical evidence? (I love pissing you off with gratuitous emoticons.)

 

How many studies have been published about the effectiveness of Roadcrafters? Why do you wear one?

 

Who said anything about choosing it because it was effective? I ride without gear some times.

 

I chose it because it meets my criteria and because, doggone it, people like me when they see me in it.

[ghaverkamp]

So much goading to respond to, where ever would I start?

 

"The only winning move is not to play."

[Ken H.]

I give absolutely zero credence to thousands and thousands of miles of "real life experience" simply because people come to different conclusions about the same thing.

Oh that's a pretty unfair statement David. There are 100s of aspects of riding that have come to be accepted by the thousands of miles of real life experience that have never been scientifically proven or disproven. And people still come to different conclusions about them for one reason or another.

 

Really taken to its end, there is no actual "proof" about anything. Only growing mounds of evidence to support or deny it.

[DiggerJim]

And accident stats about the effectiveness of flashing lights and horns on emergency vehicles?

 

Having spent 13 years behind the wheel of an ambulance with flashing lights, sirens, horns, etc. I can speak to the efficacy of those devices to attract attention. While I do admit that once our ambulance was hit while coming through an intersection with all noise/light makers running, that was once out of 18,000 trips. Now the guy pulled out of a line of stopped traffic and went around 4 cars to get to us so he was an idiot besides being taken unaware by all of the noise & light.

 

mmmmm....perhaps we should stop equipping our ambulance with all of those superfluous attention grabbers because once they were ineffective (or insufficient). The 17,999 times they worked are all just anecdotal because after all I can't point to a study of those where we interviewed the drivers of the cars pulling over if they did so because of the lights & sirens or because they just felt like visiting the side of the road for a few minutes.

 

Do I think they provided some kind of invincibility shield around the ambulance? No, but I do know far fewer people ever pulled over when the lights & sirens were not on. When they were I would slow and creep across the intersections but when they were off, I'd stop for red lights like everyone else.

 

Personally the calculus of decision making says this -- if I put a modulator on and it costs me $100 that's a known expense. My potential payoff is either it prevents some clown, even once, from cutting me off or it doesn't. If it has zero impact I've spent $100 without return. If it does stop clown one, then I've saved thousands, millions even (I'm a very special guy...I think I might even be priceless). Frankly the math is easy. Just like any other gamble in life. The potential payoff in the event of a payoff far exceeds the negligble cost.

 

Your disregard for anecdotal evidence reminds me of the people who think that for some reason "circumstantial evidence" is less reliable then eyewitness accounts in legal matters. If I look out my window tomorrow and see snow on the ground it is circumstantial evidence that it snowed. Of course there may be other explanations for how that snow got on my lawn...perhaps rogue snow makers from the ski places or some mad scientist, but by & large I'll go with the "it snowed last night" based on the purely circumstantial evidence. Bet I'd be right too.

 

Anecdotal evidence is the same. All scientific studies begin based on attempts to prove or disprove anecdotal evidence. When proven, the scientific evidence does not disprove the anecdotal evidence, it simply reinforces it. (Except when the scientific study happens to be biased or altered.)

 

Jim

[Couchrocket]

Next I'm hoping someone will stumble on the study done in Singapore on modulator effectiveness

 

David, if you're referring to the study attached, you should already know that it is on DRL's for motorcycles and not headlight modulators. There is a citation in the sources section at the end that cites what looks like a modulator study, but that reference is merely some fellow who basically say it s a good thing that should be studied.

 

One of the conclusions my anecdotal experience tells me is that unlike DRL's, modulators are dynamic and therefore less likely to be something that loses effectiveness over time. The second thing my experience tells me is that one of the reasons that modulators are so effective is that they are very often mistaken for a police officer "lighting up," or of other attention getting emergency traffic, or stationary flashing warning lights..... and we "are conditioned" to have those capture our attention.

[Couchrocket]

Next I'm hoping someone will stumble on the study done in Singapore on modulator effectiveness

 

David, if you're referring to the study attached, you should already know that it is on DRL's for motorcycles and not headlight modulators. There is a citation in the sources section at the end that cites what looks like a modulator study, but that reference is merely some fellows who basically say it s a good thing that should be studied.

 

One of the conclusions my anecdotal experience tells me is that unlike DRL's, modulators are dynamic and therefore less likely to be something that loses effectiveness over time. The second thing my experience tells me is that one of the reasons that modulators are so effective is that they are very often mistaken for a police officer "lighting up," or of other attention getting emergency traffic, or stationary flashing warning lights..... and we "are conditioned" to have those capture our attention.

[tallman]

There's always the old standby. The Hurt Report

"The problem of other motorists failing to observe motorcyclists apparently exists on several levels (see Motorist Awareness, page 31). An important Hurt Report finding was that conspicuous motorcycles and riders were less likely to have their right-of-way violated by other vehicles"

 

Personally, I find them annoying. However, I can understand why people would want to be conspicuous.

Fine. Now how do you explain studies where incredibly conspicuous things (like apes on sidewalks) were completely missed by nearly every driver? And accident stats about the effectiveness of flashing lights and horns on emergency vehicles?

 

I'm not arguing that being conspicuous is helpful. I'm arguing about what it takes to be conspicuous, and even then, how utterly vapid such help can be. That's why it's a placebo.

 

And to you, Greg, I'd say this: we have to assume they are not effective unless we see evidence that they are.

 

So far nobody's shown it to me. I guess Google is down.

 

I'm not saying that there are any guarantees vis a vis conspicuity.

Actually, just this morning a lady tried to run me over (between sipping coffee, and petting the lap dog) when I pulled to the side of the road for an oncoming ecnalubma.

She was on my right, at an intersecting road, making a left turn across the road I was on. Despite my pulling over, along with several other cars, and my pointing to the ambulance on her right...

she never once turned and looked that direction.

Ambulance had all lights and sirens on.

So I agree that in some cases people don't see or recognize what's around them. I just accept that as how it is.

If everyone had headlight modulators (like DRL's) I think they would be less effective at creating conspicuity. Even though I don't care for them, I recognize the attraction to some people. As long as they meet the statutory requirements they are legal.

Unike a parachute, we may never know how effective they really are.

[Chrish1234]

What they do have is a photo sensor that when it gets so dark the modulation part quits and the light is then just on. And the sensitivity of that point can be adjusted somewhat.

 

I didn't like the way the photosensor worked so I cut it off and wired it to a single pole switch under the dash of my RT. Now I have full control over it.

 

I keep the high beam on during the day and there are times that I just don't want the lamp to modulate. For instance, I ride with a regular group and most of the members like to have the rider behind them burn their high beam. It gives a good position check without having to spend alot of time looking in the mirror. I think that system works very well so during these rides I shut down the modulation to keep from irritating the rider in front of me. If I'm following another bike that I just happened to catch up with in traffic, I shut it down as well. I'll also show the same courtesy to a cage in front of me if I'm at a light and I can see the modulation is blazing out the driver. I try to be courteous, but when underway it is often in flash mode.

 

The key to its effectiveness IMO is the perception of motion. The human eye/brain is attracted to movement and will see the modulation as such. An approaching vehicle can appear still or even invisible at a glance, it depends on how good the eyesight and/or depth perception of the viewer is. IMO the modulator gives them one more stimlulus to observe and recognize.

 

It does not replace safe riding practices, though.

 

Chris

[David]

I'm going to skip commenting on the gratuitous, condescending lecture on logic, since any 16 year old knows that stuff (how's that for a gratuitous, condescending reply).

 

I was thinking about your reply on the way back from Vermont just now, though, and when I landed in Nashville there happened to be an ambulance parked at the arrival deck.

 

I counted 22 lights on the front, 16 on the back, and 13 on each side--80 lights in all, and most of them of the flashing variety. Add to that some real noisemaking sirens, a "stand-out" paint job, and a wide/tall vehicle, and you have something that's probably 50 times (just a guess) more "conspicuous" than a motorcycle.

 

With that going for you, would you ever feel like you could safely slow down for an intersection so that crossing traffic would have plenty of time to notice you and stop, or would you be sufficiently nervous to look carefully back and forth in both directions and perhaps even stop with the vehicle's nose just into the intersection?

 

"Objection, your honor. Asking and answering. And badgering the witness."

 

"Question withdrawn."

 

Moving on, then, my instinct tells me that modulators might very well be effective. But my instinct told me that better built, more expensive, and Snell-approved helmets were also safer until about 4 months ago. My point is that some things that are so incredibly obvious just aren't true.

 

So until someone gives me more than anecdotal drivel from a minority of riders with whom no manufacturers agree, color me skeptical. But I also said very clearly that I'll gladly accept such evidence, and would probably then install one. Until then, I don't believe the considerable impatience the driving public has for loud pipes--sorry, I mean modulaters--is worth the (as yet) unmeasured benefit.

 

Knock yourself out, though. The beauty of the internet is that we can all share out ignorance more freely. Mine included.

[ghaverkamp]

Until then, I don't believe the considerable impatience the driving public has for . . . modulaters

 

I'm sure you've got something other than your own anecdotal drivel to back up that assertion.

[David]

Yes, I do.

 

Thank you for playing.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Hey!

I like anecdotal drivel, keeps me entertained.

 

What I find funny is that when I am riding my bike, I notice and am sometimes annoyed by headlight modulators. When driving a car, however, I pay them little or no attention. Probably a cage mentality thing. I don't drive with the same level of awareness that I ride, unless I am in some knarly traffic. Even there, the thinking is different cause I can't just zoom 'em when they do frustrating crap, which is most of the time.

[David]

I like anecdotal drivel, keeps me entertained.

 

I've noticed, and it keeps us entertained, too!

[KMG_365]

I think David should take a sabbatical every month!

 

It really helps to liven things up around here!

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Oh, and for Greg:

 

Oh, and also:

 

 

Hey, look everybody!! The "insertable little waving guy's here" (ILWGH)!! But still . . . I Love Worrying Greg Haverkamp!

 

 

I know, you may now all bow down to me in my greatness!

[ghaverkamp]

I know, you may now all bow down to me in my greatness!

 

I've got 4 fingers bowing.

[weaselwayne]

I know, you may now all bow down to me in my greatness!

 

I've got 4 fingers bowing.

 

Quick Greg, tell us which four

[KMG_365]

I know, you may now all bow down to me in my greatness!

 

I've got 4 fingers bowing.

 

Awwwww, c'mon, Greg! You know I LOVE you buddy!

 

Just trying to keep that interest waning!!

[wolcott]

I have one on my '94 harley sportster (you know those bikes that don't cost an arm and a leg to maintain) and I love it. Live in Ft. Myers, Florida on SW coast. People drive like maniacs. Paper said the other day 132 people dead so far this year in Lee County, florida -more than Chicago! Unbelievable! People pay more attention to the bike during the day. Also, at night,quite a few times, people have been ready to pull out in front of me at last minute. I hit the horn and at night it strobes the headlamp and warns people not to pull out in front of you. I just resumed riding 3 years ago and don't think I could of picked a worse city to resume my riding skills. I have my helmet, gloves, boots, jackets, etc. a headlight modulator, and also put a module on top of swingarm that pulses the brakelamp 3 times or so when you activate brakes. Michael

[Woodie]

And accident stats about the effectiveness of flashing lights and horns on emergency vehicles?

 

Having spent 13 years behind the wheel of an ambulance with flashing lights, sirens, horns, etc. I can speak to the efficacy of those devices to attract attention. While I do admit that once our ambulance was hit while coming through an intersection with all noise/light makers running, that was once out of 18,000 trips.

 

Accident rates for emergency vehicles go up every time they turn on the emergency lights. Insurance claims/stats back that up. (Note: Not saying the lights *cause* accidents, just that there's a correlation between running "hot" and higher accident rates.) This is why many jurisdictions limit or select the circumstances where operators are to use emergency lights.

 

Efficacy? I've been in three ambulance accidents (only once as the driver!)... all three were running lights & siren at the time of the incident. Relatively minor injuries in all three, and 2 of the three were while attempting to negotiate an intersection.

 

State laws in the US state (in general) that emergency vehicles may disregard any rule of the road, so long as it is safe to do so.

 

Some states (NY, last I knew) required 3 siren changes before going through an intersection against the signal, and even then, the vehicle had to come to a complete stop before proceeding through the intersection.

 

Root cause analysis of a majority of the incidents I've been involved with generally came out to: The other vehicle operator failed to yield the right-of-way. In an oversize vehicle (ambulance, firetruck) the results of contact for the staff are usually survivable...less so the other vehicle.

 

As documented in numerous anecdotes, many drivers are confused/scared by the appearance of an emergency vehicle behind or even near them. Many pull to the LEFT, even though every state law I've seen states very specifically to pull to the RIGHT to yield the right-of-way. ...and there's lots of "war stories" which substantiate the unpredictable nature of driver responses to flashing lights.