Motorcycle Cops - The anti-ATGATTs

[UberXY]

I was motoring through a rural corner this morning and noticed an R12RT coming towards me. I waved, he waved, and then I realized by his short sleeve shirt and KMart helmet that he was a a policeman and the bike was an RT-P.

 

I kind of understand the shorty helmet, though I think a good modular would be safer, and would still allow the officer to communicate verbally with the public without having to remove it. But the short sleeve thing is just too strange for me. Would a decent jacket constrict his ability to work? Even a cheap Joe Rocket with elbow pads would be a lot better than bare skin.

 

If you are reading this in europe, please ignore, as your cops are always appropriately dressed.

 

This:

 

versus this:

 

 

[ka5ysy]

Several things you need to know about police departments in general:

 

 

1. All agencies generally have a very long history that dictates what they believe/do/think/wear/shoot/ride. This is institutional inertia: "We have always done it that way". Never mind the old way is obsolete and does not work.

 

As far as motorcycles go, that is why Harley is so entrenched in departments despite there being far better vehicles from a number of manufacturers. Several of our local departments acknowledge that the BMW is a superior machine, but will not change because of institutional inertia.

 

2. Helmets: A lot of department chiefs have the idea in their head that a full face or modular helmet is "intimidating" to the general public, and will not allow them. A lot of the motor officers, being old-line Harley people, live in the world of no or half helmets, despite the inferior protection they give. Many also have the misconception that it restricts vision/hearing, etc.

 

3. Jackets/pants, etc: The real issue here is that any uniform patrol officer should be wearing body armor for protection under his uniform shirt. Added bulk of armor in the jackets in most instances makes movement more difficult with the attendant problem that weapon access becomes restricted which is an officer safety issue, and in many locations, the officers are heat-stressed from the body armor to begin with. Adding motorcycle armor on top of that becomes intolerable in hot locations.

 

A number of manufacturers are trying to address the problem and have good gear, but again institutional inertia is the major problem.

 

Notice that a lot of departments insist on dark colors for uniforms. Nice for looking good when dirty, but many chiefs obviously neglected the 7th grade science class where they discussed dark colors absorbing heat. A few departments have figured it out and use light colors. In the Motor units, again institutional inertia is at work, and dark colors predominate.

 

The European and Asian agencies, despite all their other faults and issues, largely use very bright color schemes on their police bikes and officer uniforms, and do not have as many accidents involving a "failure to see the officer" crash as we seem to.

[upflying]

I'd like to see pictured UK officer ride in 100F degree temperatures with that uniform. Does it ever climb above 70F in the UK?

What peeves me are thinly veiled cop bashing posts criticizing what I wear. Thanks for being concerned with what I wear but it's not you place.

When you walk in my shoes, feel free to comment. I wear what I am told to wear. Customs and cultures in the US are not the same as Europe.

I don't see a handgun, taser, cuffs, baton, OC, spare magazines, flashlight and radio anywhere on the UK officer. Is the UK officer wearing a ballistic vest?

[PLW]

I'd like to see pictured UK officer ride in 100F degree temperatures with that uniform. Does it ever climb above 70F in the UK?

What peeves me are thinly veiled cop bashing posts criticizing what I wear. Thanks for being concerned with what I wear but it's not you place.

When you walk in my shoes, feel free to comment. I wear what I am told to wear. Customs and cultures in the US are not the same as Europe.

I don't see a handgun, taser, cuffs, baton, OC, spare magazines, flashlight and radio anywhere on the UK officer. Is the UK officer wearing a ballistic vest?

Take it easy Bob. Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi. It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

 

[amz]

Wow. Leather suit, modular helmet, hi-viz orange/white RT-P, belt w/ pistol, baton, cuffs... SWEET.

 

[img:none]http://www.352luxmag.lu/images/divers/Arbeiten%20in%20Luxemburg/police-motorbike-inspection-big.jpg[/img]

 

[img:none]http://www.352luxmag.lu/images/divers/Arbeiten%20in%20Luxemburg/police-motorbike-inspection-intern.jpg[/img]

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Although it's been more than a few years off of a work bike, I'll offer my thoughts that haven't changed and some that have:

 

Full face helmet = Offers a very nice handle for the guy who wants to fight before it can be removed. I know, I used one for a handle in a fight. It takes more than just a second or two to undo and remove so that poses some serious problems. An open face helmet doesn't offer the same protection in a crash but, extrapolating due to my crash occurring two weeks into the assignment, the ratio of having a crash AND needing a helmet to fighting with someone is on the order of 1:100. YMMV, YCMV, YFMV

 

Protective jacket. Jacket over a uniform shirt over a protective vest, belt and what now looks like a utility belt instead of a gun belt is a lot of stuff. To some extent, same arguement as full face helmet. Gives the bad guy several good handles. Motoport longsleeve shirt maybe??? The heat issue on a motor cannot be fathomed until you experience it and then have the kevlar sauna strapped to your torso.

 

Boots. I never bought the idea that Dehners or Bates were highly useful other than to have to shine several square feet of black leather. Use something else.

 

Pants. Something from Motoport should work nicely.

 

 

 

[upflying]

After regaining my composure, let's examine the typical bureaucracy of a public agency wishing to convert their motors over to ATGATT.

A Lt. proposes the change via email.

The change is agendized at a future command staff meeting.

Command staff discusses the issues and assigns the proposal to committees for further study.

City council committee studies the proposed change.

Council votes on the change.

City manager briefed on the proposal.

Change is placed on city council agenda for public comment.

Budget committee to examine the costs and expenses.

Association committee to determine whether the change follows bylaws and working conditions. Add meet and confer to this.

Legal committee to determine how, who, when and where the gear was deemed to be safer in an accident. Legal Committee also studies vendors liability of the product.

Range committee to study the use of weapons and firearms while wearing the gear.

Diversification committee to determine whether the gear is made by environmentally sustainable, non-allergenic products.

Social committee to determine if the product is made in non- oppressive working conditions.

Workman's Comp committee to study the impact (pun) of ATGATT in relation to injury clams.

OSHA committee to study above further.

Prototype committee to study product in actual working environment.

Union committee to determine whether the product is made by union workers.

Political committee to study public reaction to the gear. Would the gear make police look too authoritarian and tyrannical?

Health committee to determine how heat in the gear affects the body.

Uniform committee to write the specifications into the uniform policy.

Bid committee to solicit bids from qualified ATTGAT vendors.

Vendor committee to determine whether the vendor has a diverse ethnic workforce.

Safety committee to actually stage a collision involving the product. Using human life-forms of course.

I am not joking.

[UberXY]

Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi. It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

 

If you are referring to me, my last MSF class was an instructors class in 1988. Afterwards I decided that I would rather spend my weekends roadracing in WERA and AMA than setting up cones in a parking lot. For this rider, my level of gear is directly proportional to the number of high speed racing get offs that good gear has helped me walk away from.

[upflying]

Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi. It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

 

If you are referring to me, my last MSF class was an instructors class in 1988. Afterwards I decided that I would rather spend my weekends roadracing in WERA and AMA than setting up cones in a parking lot. For this rider, my level of gear is directly proportional to the number of high speed racing get offs that good gear has helped me walk away from.

Frequent high speed racing get offs is the not the riding environment for motors. Colliding with another driver who violates the right of way of the motor is. Not something you see on a race track. Injuries to motors tend to be fractures and blunt force trauma, not the long DeltaV slide abrasions you see at tracks. So maybe a leather and Kevlar track suit isn't going to help much when a motor hits the side of a car at 50 mph?

[fourteenfour]

I don't know about the uniforms, but I would not mind a RT in that color scheme from the first picture

[motorman587]

I'd like to see pictured UK officer ride in 100F degree temperatures with that uniform. Does it ever climb above 70F in the UK?

What peeves me are thinly veiled cop bashing posts criticizing what I wear. Thanks for being concerned with what I wear but it's not you place.

When you walk in my shoes, feel free to comment. I wear what I am told to wear. Customs and cultures in the US are not the same as Europe.

I don't see a handgun, taser, cuffs, baton, OC, spare magazines, flashlight and radio anywhere on the UK officer. Is the UK officer wearing a ballistic vest?

 

Bob,

Outstanding Sir!!! Come down to Florida and wear all our leathers and full face helmet in the summer.....

 

I want you to park your bike and x10, in the sun, get off and on, go to your saddle bag and start writing on a pad.

 

American motors wear traditional motor pants which has been the same for 100 years. And when it comes to motors it about $$$ and service.

 

I wore a bullet proof vest when I was on motors, better protect than any joe rocket jacket..........

[MotorinLA]

Many California LE agencies are now going to Motor gear that offers a higher level of protection for the rider. Kevlar jackets, kevlar pants, riding boots, modular helmets, etc.

 

As far as Hi-Viz, I believe Motors in the US probably have to worry more about felonious assaults on their person than European officers. As a result, Hi-Viz is not good. When somebody is shooting at you, you want to be Low-Viz, thus dark colors. This is the reason many agencies in our neighborhood have gone from white under shirts to black under shirt. The white V in the throat area has been dubbed the Triangle of Death, after several officers were shot in this area and felons told police they were training to aim for this bright spot. Thus, Hi-Viz is out.

 

More and more agencies are moving away from Harleys as well. It is no longer a viable police motorcycle and is generally selected because Command Staff has some romantic notion of what a Motor Officer should ride. Couple this with the Governator trying to push Harleys on CHP, because he loves them for cruising and they're made in the Good Ol' US of A. These are people that don't have to operate the motorcycles in an LE capacity and select them based on the wrong criteria.

 

The "too intimidating" concern may sound ridiculous, but it is a very real issue. When you contact literally thousands of people, in what is generally viewed by the public as a negative contact (i.e. tickets), you don't want to add more negativity by "frightening" them as well. If I had a penny for everytime some violator told me, "Oh, you scared me Officer," I'd be a rich man. Silly, but true.

 

PS - the ballistic vest offers only limited protection from sharp objects and blunt force trauma during a crash. It is designed to dissipate the energy of a small, light projectile, not large sharp objects. Thus, "stab vests" worn by correctional personnel are substantially thicker then typical ballistic vests worn by LEOs.

[bmwsit]

The tides are changing though. I have seen my department go from britches, riding boots, leather jackets and 3/4 helmets on Kawasaki bikes to Roadcrafters, boots and flip up helmets to BMW bikes with ABS. Was it easy, no. Did the old timers like it, no. Did it happen, yes. Do they wear short sleeves in the summer, yup, still do. Try sitting in the sun in a dark uniform running radar. I know when I am on my personal bike I get cranky when I stop and the heat starts to build up in my jacket. Can't imagine what that would be like for 10 hours rarely getting above 45mph. I know on 80 degree plus days, I did not like getting out of my car to work traffic or accidents and I just had on a standard navy blue wool uniform. I know some of the guys would like to wear better gear even in the heat, but as stated already, and numerous times in other posts about this topic, officers don't get to pick what they wear. They are given the gear and told what combination of parts they can wear.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Thanks to all the motor officers who have added info to this thread. I learned a lot about the unique situation(s) you must deal with regarding your gear as compared to us regular riders and I now have a totally new perspective on what you wear and why you wear it. And thanks for your service.

[Glenn Reed]

Thanks to all the motor officers who have added info to this thread. I learned a lot about the unique situation(s) you must deal with regarding your gear as compared to us regular riders and I now have a totally new perspective on what you wear and why you wear it. And thanks for your service.

 

+1

[tallman]

Take it easy Bob. Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi. It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

 

And this "level of confidence" translates into what exactly?

More protection in a crash?

Better visisbility/conspicuity?

Protection from debis/bugs/cinders/cigarettes/bugs/sun exposure/skin cancer/etc. ?

 

I wear hi viz vest and helmet along with ATGATT.

Having survived two hit and run collisions and been run over by a truck (we'll leave the t boning thru the windshield out of the discussion because it wasn't on 2 wheels) I may have a different perspective than you, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my "level of confidence".

 

Motor officers face a unique set of challenges.

The need to be "in uniform" and be "crashworthy" are not that compatible with the standard issued equipment.

Access to the belt and its contents are needed.

I too am concerned about the possibility of injury to a motor officer.

I hope that their training helps reduce that risk.

I would have no problems with a hi viz bike and a uniform redesign that incorporated SOTA materials that provided more crash protection, were environmentally compatible with the locale and added conspicuity without limiting access to their gear.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi.

 

Leaving the "nazi" remark aside for the moment (praise be to Godwin), I'd agree that what you say here is true. But most motor cops also rack up a lot more miles per year (i.e. exposure to risk) than the average freshly-minted MSF graduate. Given that thes two risk factors (novice skill level versus high miles ridden) tend to offset each other, I wonder what the crashes-per-year-per-rider rate is for motocops versus freshly-minted MSF graduates; they might be closer than you'd think.

 

Among the folks on this site I'd guess that inexperienced riders are underrepresented, and users of safety gear (e.g. helmets, gloves, boots, jackets, pants) are overrepresented. Most new riders don't opt for a BMW as their first mount; IOW, the folks on this site who advocate the use of safety gear generally aren't freshly minuted MSF graduates.

 

It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

I don't know what exactly does correlate with a rider's level of gear, but I'll wager it's not confidence. In 12 years of riding, I know my skill level has improved immensely - and at the same time, my level of gear has gone up. I started off in jeans, hiking boots, a crappy Joe Rocket jacket with thin armor, equally crappy JR gloves, and a Shoei FF helmet. These days I wear an Olympia hi-viz jacket with much better armor; gloves and boots with hard armor; and Draggin Jeans with knee and hip armor inserts. And I've added some large swaths of hi-viz vinyl to my bike's sidecases, and yellow Motolights up front. None of which is a guarantee of any kind against death and dismemberment, but assuming I don't let my situational awareness lapse, I'd say all that stuff improves my odds.

 

As we are learning in this thread, a motocop's job in the US comes with conditions that make motorcycle safety gear counterproductive (e.g. the safe pursuit/apprehension of suspects) or downright impossible (e.g. 110-degree heat + the added bulk of a bulletproof vest underneath it all). But I don't think dismissing safety gear advocates as "ATGATT nazis" helps us learn much of anything.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

But most motor cops also rack up a lot more miles per year (i.e. exposure to risk) than the average freshly-minted MSF graduate. Given that thes two risk factors (novice skill level versus high miles ridden) tend to offset each other, I wonder what the crashes-per-year-per-rider rate is for motocops versus freshly-minted MSF graduates; they might be closer than you'd think.

 

Mitch, good point.

IIRC, the CHP considers its 2 week school graduates less than fully competent (I forget the exact words) for two years.

 

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

Mitch

 

There you go again with that voice of logic and wisdom.

 

You can make this increasingly difficult for someone that prefers a more emotional point of view!

 

Dave

[motorman587]

But most motor cops also rack up a lot more miles per year (i.e. exposure to risk) than the average freshly-minted MSF graduate. Given that thes two risk factors (novice skill level versus high miles ridden) tend to offset each other, I wonder what the crashes-per-year-per-rider rate is for motocops versus freshly-minted MSF graduates; they might be closer than you'd think.

 

Mitch, good point.

IIRC, the CHP considers its 2 week school graduates less than fully competent (I forget the exact words) for two years.

 

And most departments will have monthly motorcycle training. If they are trained by Florida Safety Public Institute, where I teach, the motor instructor will lean to break down motor training into three parts. 1.Cone pattern, low speed tight turns, rodeo stuff. 2.Accident/crashes avoidance, high speed maneuvers, brake escape, 180 decel, proper braking etc......and 3. Street Survival, high speed curve negotiation, braking in a curve, shooting from the motor etc.........

[motorman587]

Thanks to all the motor officers who have added info to this thread. I learned a lot about the unique situation(s) you must deal with regarding your gear as compared to us regular riders and I now have a totally new perspective on what you wear and why you wear it. And thanks for your service.

 

George,

Thank you for an open mind. I can tell for the 16 years I was in the motor unit it was pain in the a$$ to get good equipment. You had to fight the administration for why it was need and then money. I was always told, "no money in the budget".

 

Remember when we went to flip up helmets. At red light we were instructed to flip up the helmets so the public/community could see our faces.

 

Remember that gloves made us look to aggressive.

 

Remember when I was told that R1200RTP was a "cafe racer".

 

Some motor officers understand the importance of proper gear, but cost and the battle of the administration just burns you out. Especially if have not riding supervisors.

[Survived-til-now]

I'd like to see pictured UK officer ride in 100F degree temperatures with that uniform. Does it ever climb above 70F in the UK?

What peeves me are thinly veiled cop bashing posts criticizing what I wear. Thanks for being concerned with what I wear but it's not you place.

When you walk in my shoes, feel free to comment. I wear what I am told to wear. Customs and cultures in the US are not the same as Europe.

I don't see a handgun, taser, cuffs, baton, OC, spare magazines, flashlight and radio anywhere on the UK officer. Is the UK officer wearing a ballistic vest?

 

Yes it does get over 70 deg F in the UK and I still wear ATGATT even when it has been in the 90's.

 

If the public is funding your spell in hospital/disability pension then yes it is open to a member of the public to question what cops wear on their bikes and it is quite wrong to suggest that it is not their place.

 

And you are quite right that customs and cultures are not the same over here. It is rare that our policemen are shot and the general public are outraged when they are; but sadly. yes he probably is wearing a stab vest.

 

Don't know how we got dragged into this but our police wear the right gear for the circumstances and it rankles that they are in some way criticized for doing the right thing.

[upflying]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

[motorman587]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

Awesome Sir, well said!!!!!!!!

[JAP]

From all I've read, some one has to design a xxi century uniform for motor cops, seems that none of the existing riding/police gear is fitted for the purpose in terms of modern safety and operative standarts.

Best regards

Japanese

[roadscholar]

Looks like ATTGAT is pretty far down the list of LEO safety concerns. Yeah, they average more miles a year but they have more experience and practice to counteract it.

 

You guys are alright.

[ryan_a1982]

I wear ATGATT because I have a fear of turning my body into a huge scab/scar and I feel that I am a confident rider.

 

Having said that, I have the liberty of taking my jacket off when I want and wearing my nice mesh clothing without extra gear, bullet proof vests and guns etc...

 

I am thankful for the LEO's that are out there making the effort and sacrifices that they are to keep things in line. If I had to wear the gear my LEO buddies have to wear, I would NOT be adding a jacket to the mix.

 

Not being able to wear the safety gear of your choice is another sacrifice that is made, thanks again!

 

-Ryan

[Witch_Doctor]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

Awesome Sir, well said!!!!!!!!

 

+1 to that. Don't forget 100% humidity, worse roads, weather a recreational rider wouldn't even think to ride in, avoiding all the cagers that have no clue on narrow streets, clueless tourist, and every damn tractor trailer escort that comes through the city and Mardi Gras.

 

[Deek]

"...1. All agencies generally have a very long history that dictates what they believe/do/think/wear/shoot/ride. This is institutional inertia: "We have always done it that way". Never mind the old way is obsolete and does not work....."

 

You must be a former police officer also! You hit the nail on the head!

[Mike]

I'll first acknowledge that the motocops probably have a better idea of what works and doesn't work for them than most who haven't done the job. But I'll also note that the natural resistance to change in all of us sometimes leads us to defy logic.

 

I know that the uniform varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but let's face it: a lot of guys (and gals, I'd guess) like sticking with the old-style uniform because it's distinctive and, well, just because because that's the way it's always been. As we've seen here, they may not exactly appreciate others pointing out the perceived goofiness of their issued apparel. However, despite arguments to the contrary, the moto-coppers in Europe and Asia who have gone with more modern approaches to their uniforms often encounter job demands and environmental factors quite similar to those in the States. If you like the uniforms because you like the uniforms, that's fine. But I am sure that the resistance to change sometimes reflects, well, a resistance to change. From what I've read--and, of course, this may be just propaganda--the motor officers whose departments have moved to modern designs and materials (which are, incidentally, more protective), have been pretty pleased with them.

 

Personally . . . and I mean this as no affront to our brothers in blue . . . I think that many of the motor uniforms I see look a little goofy, conjuring up images closer to Dudley Do-Right rather than Joe Friday. But, then, I wear pleated trousers and button-down shirts, which, according to my wife, are decidedly uncool.

 

So, in the final analysis, I fully support the right of motocops to dress like dorks; it makes me feel like I'm not alone in this world.

[Survived-til-now]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

You are picking and choosing here:

 

I acknowledged that the circumstances for our police were different and your point is well made that to ride all day in high temperatures and to do what you have to do is well beyond what I have experienced.

 

But I would like you to address why you think a public servant thinks that the public have "no place" to question a public service.

[realshelby]

I would just like to say thanks to all here for being great members!

 

There is NO other place on the world wide web that a discussion like this could take place with this level of courtesy and respect. Feelings of disagreement run high, but respect for others is higher.

 

One of my best friends was a motor cop in Houston, Tx. We have had this discussion. They were not allowed to deviate from "the uniform". He and I believe there is a way to engineer an effective motor uniform with significantly more protection from impact/abrasion. I'll leave it at that.

[Martyn]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

Do all of the above EXCEPT I'd always choose to sit in the shade. No point getting old if you don't get wise.

Motorcop since 1974.

 

However, I'd never presume to tell a US cop what he should or should not be wearing.

 

For me it's Streetguard 2 jacket & trousers, Daytona boots, BMW System helmet most of the year, with Airflow jacket, trousers, boots & gloves in the warmest weather.

 

[Survived-til-now]

Andy, the next time it is in the 90's in the UK, please wear your full ATGATT for 10 hours and do the following;

Ride slowly and repetitively in an urban environment.

Listen to busy radio chatter on your headset.

Park in the sun on a sidewalk and watch traffic at an intersection (junction?).

Pull over 10 cars for a traffic violation and write the drivers a citation.

Remain calm while hostile people threaten you.

Investigate a three car injury collision at a busy intersection.

Go to court and testify on a criminal or traffic matter.

Foot chase a stolen vehicle suspect over fences and through backyards.

Wear 25 lbs of weight around your waist.

Wear a Kevlar ballistic vest.

Book an uncooperative suspect in jail.

Sit in a police station and write reports.

Lunch or breaks? Not.

Please get back to us with your experiences.

 

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

You are picking and choosing here:

 

I acknowledged that the circumstances for our police were different and your point is well made that to ride all day in high temperatures and to do what you have to do is well beyond what I have experienced.

 

But I would like you to address why you think a public servant thinks that the public have "no place" to question a public service.

 

I'd like to retract the question I posed. It's getting away from the original post and ignoring the frustration that the OP obviously caused. Perhaps upon reflection the OP might consider that the reference to the UK cop was inappropriate and bound to cause offence, simply because the two are not valid comparators because of the very different circumstances.

 

Nonetheless, it is a valid question and Upflying's response may hold the answer as to why any improvement in protection is so difficult to effect. It is probably precisely because motorcycle officers are so proficient that the number of injury days-off and disability pensions are so comparatively low that no force feels compelled to invest in better protection (I'm thinking Ford Pinto fuel tanks here). That will be of little consolation to those who are injured or disabled.

 

[ka5ysy]

There is NO other place on the world wide web that a discussion like this could take place with this level of courtesy and respect. Feelings of disagreement run high, but respect for others is higher.

 

That is because everybody here is a class act !

[amz]

+1!

 

I also think that we have established that motors in Europe and the US have quite different mission profiles, and as well as threat environments.

 

The pics I posted earlier in this thread are from the “Brigade Volante” in Luxembourg. Their mission is primarily traffic enforcement, and they interchangeably ride the RT-P or a BMW sedan, depending on weather and task at hand. They also fulfill all the escort duties, typically on M/C.

 

Since I was born there, a bunch of my pals ride/drive for that unit. I do not recall ever any of the officers in that unit being shot at... Their main threat is accidents, not bad guys trying to grab the helmet or trying to kill them. Then again, one of the guys got bitten by some intoxicated rich chick during a traffic stop. Had to get a Tetanus booster and an HIV test...

[ltljohn]

Interesting discussion.

 

A question for the motor officers, If you were in charge what would the motor officers in your department be wearing?

[upflying]

Interesting discussion.

 

A question for the motor officers, If you were in charge what would the motor officers in your department be wearing?

I think I touched on this bureaucratic process back on page one. If'n I was a Lt, I would not go there and leave things be on a local level. Ca has 58 counties and about 475 police departments all with their own way of doing things. What's needed is some agency on a state level, (CHP obviously) to take the lead on the ATGATT issue. They have the resources to do the testing and evaluation of the various ATGATT options as it pertains to motors. Once a standardized ATGATT uniform is approved, the local agencies will piggy back onto the CHP approved product and buy it in bulk through the state bid process. Until CHP takes the lead, I don't see much hope for change. With Ca in a budget crisis, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

BTW, 475 autocratic police departments is a very inefficient form of government. Ca can solve the budget problem simply by consolidating many PD's, much like fire departments have done.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

I think I touched on this bureaucratic process back on page one. If'n I was a Lt, I would not go there and leave things be on a local level. Ca has 58 counties and about 475 police departments all with their own way of doing things. What's needed is some agency on a state level, (CHP obviously) to take the lead on the ATGATT issue. They have the resources to do the testing and evaluation of the various ATGATT options as it pertains to motors. Once a standardized ATGATT uniform is approved, the local agencies will piggy back onto the CHP approved product and buy it in bulk through the state bid process. Until CHP takes the lead, I don't see much hope for change. With Ca in a budget crisis, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

Dude!

You forget that this would be an opportunity for the state to create a new Commission with former elected officials making six figure salaries for sitting on the board. It'll happen now for sure!

[upflying]

Yep, I nominate you and me to be on that commission.

Due to the Brown Act, this commission is where the public has a chance to comment on their outrage that motors are unprotected and cost taxpayers millions for unnecessary disability injury retirements.

[Paul Mihalka]

Mini hijack. Department efficiency. I don't know how and why, but when the same area is covered by state police, county police, sheriff's department and city police it can't be very efficient...

[upflying]

In Ca. the state police, aka California highway Patrol, are responsible for traffic matters in unincorporated areas and all freeways.

County sheriff is responsible for all criminal matters in unincorporated areas.

City police are responsible for traffic and criminal issues within incorporated city limits.

Sheriff also does detention, jails, courts and civil.

CHP also does state capital, governor protection and some state building security.

[Fubar]

Most the motor cops I know are a lot more talented than the average freshly minted MSF graduate ATGATT nazi.

 

Leaving the "nazi" remark aside for the moment (praise be to Godwin), I'd agree that what you say here is true. But most motor cops also rack up a lot more miles per year (i.e. exposure to risk) than the average freshly-minted MSF graduate. Given that thes two risk factors (novice skill level versus high miles ridden) tend to offset each other, I wonder what the crashes-per-year-per-rider rate is for motocops versus freshly-minted MSF graduates; they might be closer than you'd think.

 

Among the folks on this site I'd guess that inexperienced riders are underrepresented, and users of safety gear (e.g. helmets, gloves, boots, jackets, pants) are overrepresented. Most new riders don't opt for a BMW as their first mount; IOW, the folks on this site who advocate the use of safety gear generally aren't freshly minuted MSF graduates.

 

It seems like for a lot of riders, the level of gear is inversely proportional to the level of confidence.

 

I don't know what exactly does correlate with a rider's level of gear, but I'll wager it's not confidence. In 12 years of riding, I know my skill level has improved immensely - and at the same time, my level of gear has gone up. I started off in jeans, hiking boots, a crappy Joe Rocket jacket with thin armor, equally crappy JR gloves, and a Shoei FF helmet. These days I wear an Olympia hi-viz jacket with much better armor; gloves and boots with hard armor; and Draggin Jeans with knee and hip armor inserts. And I've added some large swaths of hi-viz vinyl to my bike's sidecases, and yellow Motolights up front. None of which is a guarantee of any kind against death and dismemberment, but assuming I don't let my situational awareness lapse, I'd say all that stuff improves my odds.

 

As we are learning in this thread, a motocop's job in the US comes with conditions that make motorcycle safety gear counterproductive (e.g. the safe pursuit/apprehension of suspects) or downright impossible (e.g. 110-degree heat + the added bulk of a bulletproof vest underneath it all). But I don't think dismissing safety gear advocates as "ATGATT nazis" helps us learn much of anything.

+1 (squared)

My level of protection has gone up with experience. By the time I'm dead, I expect I'll be plated up like knights of old.

 

LEO's are ATGATT people and quite insistent about it. How many would start a shift w/o the 9mm, the baton, the cuffs, the badge, etc.? The protective gear is, and should be, just another part of that uniform.

 

As was shown in the pic AMZ posted, protective gear and necessary LEO equipment can go together. The problem is the desire/need to change overcoming the resistance to said change. I can see using 3/4 helmets personally, but modular makes sense too.

 

Just curious, not trying to start something, but I would wager that the gear most riders wear is more likely to come into play than the BPV. The ballistic is a worst-case scenario item. So is a helmet. I wonder which gets used more?

 

I think we owe it to our LEO brethren to lobby on their behalf for better protective gear when they are two-wheeling it. A poly/cotton shirt and pants that works in a cage isn't an appropriate motor uniform cuz you added a pair of shiny, mid-calf boots.

 

Department efficiency. I don't know how and why, but when the same area is covered by state police, county police, sheriff's department and city police it can't be very efficient...

Consolidation would be a very good idea, IMO.

 

Here in FL, county sheriff departments cannot work traffic crashes. City cops can, but if the crash is outside a city boundary, the FHP have to do the work. That's efficient, huh? Make the SD deputies wait on an FHP trooper to get there from who-knows-where and just direct traffic until then.

[fourteenfour]

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

 

Thump your chest all you want you, the day your getting skin grafts will make all those "points" pointless.

 

Really, if I want to see a list of excuses I will listen to my dirt bike buddies who recite similar when on streets, let alone listen to them how only amateurs need ABS.

[tallman]

Well I've gotten skin grafts (from myself) and donated skin for graft and yes, it is a pain.

But the only way to compare motocops and disability retirement would be to get data for cops in cars and compare it to cops on bikes.

Seems like more than a few officers are injured seriously in cages too.

[StriderWalker]

Interesting discussion.

 

A question for the motor officers, If you were in charge what would the motor officers in your department be wearing?

 

Excellent example of how asking the right question helps turn an increasingly hot topic into a very productive discussion. And to all--great thread!

[Witch_Doctor]

Please show us a scientific study that proves fewer motor officer disability retirements would occur if they wore ATGATT.

 

 

Thump your chest all you want you, the day your getting skin grafts will make all those "points" pointless.

 

Really, if I want to see a list of excuses I will listen to my dirt bike buddies who recite similar when on streets, let alone listen to them how only amateurs need ABS.

 

I can tell you exactly how many officers from my department (New Orleans Police Department) have been killed in the line duty on a motorcycle in the past 30 years; two (2), and both were struck by DWI drivers, and no amount of protection would have changed the outcome. Both officers were wearing Vanson duty leather, DOT approved helmets, and full police kit. As for officer who have disability retirements due to motorcycle involved injuries on duty; none. As for statistic of workman's compensation claims due to motorcycle injuries, they are considerably less than the average officer on the street not operating a motorcycle.

 

For full statistics nationwide you can get yearly reports from the NHTSA FARS (Fatality Analysis Reporting System) which has been in existence since 1975.

[Survived-til-now]

Well, Upflying's challenge on the numbers got me curious:

 

From the California Highway Patrol:

 

Total Line of Duty Deaths: 225

Accidental: 1

Aircraft accident: 10

Automobile accident: 27

Drowned: 1

Duty related illness: 1

Gunfire: 40

Gunfire (Accidental): 4

Heart attack: 4

Motorcycle accident: 68

Struck by vehicle: 18

Vehicle pursuit: 20

Vehicular assault: 29

Weather/Natural disaster: 2

 

Now that is over a long period but checking on Wikipedia page for fallen officers, and a very limted database, I'd venture to suggest that motorcycle officers are over represented in the statistics (and I have yet to meet the person who wants to be viewed as the over represented statistic). But admittedly the figures are relatively low and not knowing the overall number of motorcycle officers it may not be significant (except to those involved).

 

Here in the UK - and let's not make the original poster's mistake of drawing/making an invalid comparison, the statistics show that motorcyclists are over 30 times more likely to have a serious injury/death compared to car drivers. Even allowing for the high degree of skill of our motorcycle officers it's more risky form of transport than being in a car, hence the requirement to wear ATGATT even when the weather is hot (but not as hot as in the USA).

 

Now the point I was making about the Ford Pinto was that in brief, someone was (alledgedly) aware that an increased risk existed but (alledgedly) did the sums and concluded that it was an acceptable risk. Punitive damages make them (alledgedly) change their mind. So I guess we are just waiting for an officer who is unfortunately involved in an accident to make the case that he/she was inadequately protected and I think the statistics would support their case. But I admit it isn't coming out of my taxes but yours and so I have no place to be concerned (but I am not sure that is a morally defensible point of view).

[Survived-til-now]

For those wishing to read more, this links to a detailed analysis and discusses the ATGATT question

 

CHP Motorcycle Crashes

[upflying]

Thanks for the link. One argument against ATGATT for motors.