Got into argument w/motor officer on way to work

[longjohn]

So I'm heading to work this morning going S. on Ash approaching Manchester and I'm going to turn right to get to the 405 onramp. It's backed up 7 cars so I meander around and get up to the second position behind a car and there on the sidewalk at the corner is a motor officer on his bmw. The light is green but the guy in front of me isn't making the right turn, and instead is yielding to the northbound traffic that is turning left onto manchester. I honk my horn to get him to make the turn but it does no good. Then I yell move at him, and still no response. The light turns red and the cross traffic starts heading W. Then the motor officer and I get into a discussion about who has the right of way at that intersection, the south bound folks turning right or the north bound folks turning left. He says both! Huh? wtf.

 

After exchanging a few more words he threatens to give me a ticket so I sceedadle at my first chance. The oncoming traffic heading N. on Ash is one way with a left turn lane, a right turn lane, and the middle lane which can go left right or straight. There are no left turn arrows just red lights or green. There are three lanes on manchester heading W. Am I wrong in thinking the people heading S and turning right have the right of way over the people heading N and turning left? How could both sides have right of way like he said? I tried looking in the dmv handbook for an answer but didn't find one.

[beemerman2k]

Manchester has 3 lanes for traffic to turn onto, so what's the problem? You turn onto the right most lane, opposing traffic turns onto the left most lane.

 

What am I missing here?

[bmwsit]

Seems like since everyone was turning, they share the right of way as long as everyone turns into the lane they are supposed to. Maybe the guy you were behind was learing of turning and having a left turn violate his lane and hit him?

 

Did he say what he would have ticketed you for? Bet I know.

[elkroeger]

It's a small distinction, and perhaps a bit off topic, but in Washington, nobody has the right of way. All the laws are written so that people in various positions must yield the right of way to someone else.

 

So you're both wrong. :-)

[szurszewski]

It's a small distinction, and perhaps a bit off topic, but in Washington, nobody has the right of way. All the laws are written so that people in various positions must yield the right of way to someone else.

 

So you're both wrong. :-)

 

Same thing in Oregon - I'd imagine in most other states - but I thought only us traffic safety people dared to share that point.

[longjohn]

Manchester has 3 lanes for traffic to turn onto, so what's the problem? You turn onto the right most lane, opposing traffic turns onto the left most lane.

 

What am I missing here?

Yes this becomes a little complicated. Opposing traffic can have two lanes turning left, and some of those want to be in the right most lane to get on the 405 N. Folks turning right onto manchester are supposed to turn into the right most lane, but that lane is delineated by a solid white line, and the La Cienega intersection isn't far away, so if you want to turn left at La Cienega you have to make two lane changes in a short distance.

[bmwsit]

True enough, but to take it further, if no one has the right of way, how do they yield it? Any way, so if one driver had been going straight, the drivers turning would have to yield the right of way. So in this case they did not have to yield to each other, but would have shared it.

[longjohn]

Seems like since everyone was turning, they share the right of way as long as everyone turns into the lane they are supposed to. Maybe the guy you were behind was learing of turning and having a left turn violate his lane and hit him?

 

Did he say what he would have ticketed you for? Bet I know.

Haha, he didn't say. This crap happens every morning and today the motor officer appears, so I thought he would be waving the right turners through, but noooooo. I suspect some who hesitate to turn are fearful of getting hit, and others want to get into the left lane to turn left at La Cienega. Funny thing though, is that when a big rig is turning left, they almost always yield to those turning right, which makes me think I'm right and the cop is wrong.

[mrduck]

Wound up a little too tight?

Shouting at cage drivers and irritating motor cops?

 

You need help, my friend!

 

Dr. Duck recommends the following weekend therapy-

 

Take a long ride in the country this weekend....

Hang out with your favorite hooligan buddies....

Some light evening libations...

By Sunday you should be fine!

 

 

(I'll mail the therapy session bill)

 

 

 

Don J

[longjohn]

^^^^Toooo funny, thanks!

[Witch_Doctor]

Thats called POP, Pissing Off the Police. You can't win.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

In theory, there was enough room on Manchester for both streams of traffic to turn in.

 

The reality is that some drivers are terrible about taking the first available lane when turning like that; about half the time you'll get a driver turning left into the right-most lane, which is maybe what your reluctant right-turner was fearful of.

 

As to who has the right of way, my gut feeling is that the reluctant right-turner did. I don't bellieve two conflicting streams of traffic can both have right-of-way; perhaps the officer meant that in theory (see first paragraph) there is no conflict between the two streams.

[beemerman2k]

I just looked up that intersection on Google Maps. That is a crazy intersection! I don't know that I would even rely on it if I didn't have to, too many opportunities for something to go wrong. And if something goes wrong and you're on a motorcycle, guess who loses?

 

Were I you, I'd consider an alternate route, such as Queen Street to Oak Street to Manchester or something like that.

[upflying]

22100a and 22100b CVC covers this turning. Both directions on Ash had green. Both should complete their turns from Ash into the corresponding right and left lanes on Manchester.

If it had been me on a bike behind a car not turning right on green, I would have passed it and made the right.

I wonder what the motor cop would have cited you for? Excessive use of horn perhaps? Yelling and honking at other drivers also causes road rage, something else motor cops frown upon.

Keep in mind the presence of the motor cop could have caused "mental paralysis" on the part of the cage driver. Lot's of low performance cage driver's become all discombobulated when LEO's are around and don't know what to do.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I just looked up that intersection on Google Maps. That is a crazy intersection!

 

For reference, here's the map.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

And here's the satellite view, showing the lane markings/layouts.

[beemerman2k]

If you drop down to street view and position yourself where the OP was, you'll see a picture of the oncoming traffic turning left. That's who you have to compete with for a spot onto Manchester. Most of us men would likely just cram our vehicles into the action and let everyone work it out, but I can see where some may not quite operate that way.

[CarrotNC]

I call those "lug nut intersections" because the right of way goes to whoever has the most lug nuts. It's similar to the Law of Gross Tonnage from maritime use. Usually a heavier vehicle has more lug nuts to hold wheels on their axles, so the heavier the vehicle, the more lug nuts it has, and so it's usually going to "win" in any sort of collision.

[bmwsit]

22100a and 22100b CVC covers this turning. Both directions on Ash had green. Both should complete their turns from Ash into the corresponding right and left lanes on Manchester.

If it had been me on a bike behind a car not turning right on green, I would have passed it and made the right.

I wonder what the motor cop would have cited you for? Excessive use of horn perhaps? Yelling and honking at other drivers also causes road rage, something else motor cops frown upon.

Keep in mind the presence of the motor cop could have caused "mental paralysis" on the part of the cage driver. Lot's of low performance cage driver's become all discombobulated when LEO's are around and don't know what to do.

 

That's my bet, improper use of horn. Have used it several times myself and people always give you the craziest looks when cited for it. As for passing the car signaling a right turn on their right, not only dangerous, but illegal too, at least up here in Oregon.

[4wheeldog]

I call those "lug nut intersections" because the right of way goes to whoever has the most lug nuts. It's similar to the Law of Gross Tonnage from maritime use. Usually a heavier vehicle has more lug nuts to hold wheels on their axles, so the heavier the vehicle, the more lug nuts it has, and so it's usually going to "win" in any sort of collision.

 

I agree with your gross tonnage, but I counter these situations with "They can't hit you if you are not in the way". If you keep an eye on the left turning traffic, the lane farthest to your left, you can go anytime a spot opens up. Timing is everything, and lack of it screws up traffic flow more than anything short of collisons.

[beemerman2k]

While I'm all for riding smart and being wise when on 2 wheels, there is no room for a timid motorcyclists riding on our city streets. If you don't have lugs for nuts then stay off the bike when in any city, and certainly in the LA's and New York's of the world. So I'm with 4wheeldog on this one

[longjohn]

 

Were I you, I'd consider an alternate route, such as Queen Street to Oak Street to Manchester or something like that.

Traffic at 730am on Manchester is heavy so I try avoid as many traffic lights as possible. If I use Oak that's one more light.

[longjohn]

Thats called POP, Pissing Off the Police. You can't win.

You're right.

22100a and 22100b CVC covers this turning. Both directions on Ash had green. Both should complete their turns from Ash into the corresponding right and left lanes on Manchester.

If it had been me on a bike behind a car not turning right on green, I would have passed it and made the right.

I wonder what the motor cop would have cited you for? Excessive use of horn perhaps? Yelling and honking at other drivers also causes road rage, something else motor cops frown upon.

Keep in mind the presence of the motor cop could have caused "mental paralysis" on the part of the cage driver. Lot's of low performance cage driver's become all discombobulated when LEO's are around and don't know what to do.

Thanks for replying Bob. I was waiting for pro's thoughts. Sad to say the I use your maneuver to pass the car all too often but I almost sideswiped a Navigator recently who had the same idea! Yeah the motor cop made mention that I shouldn't "play traffic cop".

Most of us men would likely just cram our vehicles into the action and let everyone work it out, but I can see where some may not quite operate that way.

Exactly. What makes matters worse is that traffic can back up from the 405 onramp, so some days there is virtual gridlock at the intersection.

As for passing the car signaling a right turn on their right, not only dangerous, but illegal too, at least up here in Oregon.

I sometimes resort to this, and more and more I see cages doing it too. Perhaps that's why the Leo was on his bike on the sidewalk.

[upflying]

22100a and 22100b CVC covers this turning. Both directions on Ash had green. Both should complete their turns from Ash into the corresponding right and left lanes on Manchester.

If it had been me on a bike behind a car not turning right on green, I would have passed it and made the right.

I wonder what the motor cop would have cited you for? Excessive use of horn perhaps? Yelling and honking at other drivers also causes road rage, something else motor cops frown upon.

Keep in mind the presence of the motor cop could have caused "mental paralysis" on the part of the cage driver. Lot's of low performance cage driver's become all discombobulated when LEO's are around and don't know what to do.

 

That's my bet, improper use of horn. Have used it several times myself and people always give you the craziest looks when cited for it. As for passing the car signaling a right turn on their right, not only dangerous, but illegal too, at least up here in Oregon.

I didn't say which side I would have passed the stubborn, non-turning car. But since you asked, I would pass it on the left and then make the right. In essence, the pass would be a lane split to the front, legal in Ca.

[Witch_Doctor]

I will preface this by saying I am not familar with CA traffic laws, but I was a motorcycle officer for 10 years with my department in Louisiana. We didn't allow lane spliting in Louisiana, so you would have been cited for 32:191.1 Improper operation of a motorcycle (Lane splitting) and 32:122 improper left turn at an intersection, and if an accident was caused, 32:58 careless operation. Using the horn in a non emergency situation is also a violation, but its a POP charge.

 

That all being said, the way its looked at is, if the vehicle stopped at the approaching intersection is hesitant of entering the intersection, subsequent vehicle must wait. Its annoying as all hell, and can drive you nuts, but patience is the key. It would not have been uncomomn for me to write the hesitant driver a citation for 32:143 Blocking an intersection. Unfortunately most low speed accidents are caused in similar situations.

 

Regarding what was said earlier about operator paralysis when they see a LEO, think about how annoying it is for us.

[longjohn]

 

That all being said, the way its looked at is, if the vehicle stopped at the approaching intersection is hesitant of entering the intersection, subsequent vehicle must wait. Its annoying as all hell, and can drive you nuts, but patience is the key. Unfortunately most low speed accidents are caused in similar situations.

So if the car in front is hesitant to turn right, and it is because the N bound cars in the center lane are turning into the right hand lane of W bound Manchester instead of the center lane of W Manchester, can't and shouldn't they be issued a citation?

[taters]

The officer was right and you were wrong. Why? You forgot the golden rule. Simply stated , the man who has the gold makes the rules.

[Witch_Doctor]

I edited my response, probably while you were typing yours. Yes, if the hesitant driver becomes an obstruction to traffic, than I would cite them for 32:143 Blocking an intersection.

 

My biggest pet peeve were bicyclist who refused to obey traffic laws. Damn spandex wearing jerks.

[Witch_Doctor]

Oh yea, as a side note: I thought we had some F*%ked up intersection, but the civil engineer who designed that needs a swift kick to the junk.

[dirtrider]

Evening Chris

 

Why you blame the engineer(s) for the problem. In all likelihood it was originally designed properly but the man with the money changed it to make it cheaper to build or maybe it was originally designed to carry a (current at that time) different vehicle density per hour.

 

Was that designed and built before the Zip-way went through? Probably now carrying 4 times as many vehicles per hour as it was originally designed to carry.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

I am fully aware that the original design, like most in our country, were designed for considerably less congestion and most likely 25 to 40 years earlier. I was being sarcastic, though some of the new traffic control systems I am seeing in the Southeast do make me scratch my head.

[upflying]

Traffic Calming is now a popular California roadway engineering solution to traffic congestion. Make the streets narrower and more difficult to drive. Only in Ca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

 

[RPG]

as frustrating as that circumstance can be, I don't think I would have argued with the officer. They are usually armed and pretty decent folk overall, doing a thankless job.

 

RPG

[Ken H.]

So if the car in front is hesitant to turn right, and it is because the N bound cars in the center lane are turning into the right hand lane of W bound Manchester instead of the center lane of W Manchester, can't and shouldn't they be issued a citation?

Slight hijack – That’s one of the things I’ve really noticed (and appreciated) different since moving here from the US. Left turning drivers here are MUCH more ‘lane disciplined’, i.e. good at turning into their appropriate lane only. In the US if waiting to make a right hand turn into the curb side lane with facing left turning traffic in process, you hardly dare proceed for fear of them cutting across two or more lanes in the process of making their turn. Here you can routinely make your right-hand turn (in a cage or on the bike) at the same time as the opposite-facing driver is turning into his/her correct lane; no issues. Both drivers just seamlessly turn in alongside of each other and continue on with no drama or second thought.

 

Now navigating roundabouts correctly, that’s a different story. I don’t think they ‘get it’ here any better than in the US!

 

/hijack

 

[Dundee387]

At that moment, he gave you the answer, both.

 

What the dmv handbook says doesn't really matter at that point, it's what the motor Officer says, as he is the traffic authority.

 

Not worth arguing over..

 

[kmac]

I grew near there btw....

 

I agree with you and NOT the officer. 1st straight thru has the right of way, second, right turns have right of way, and LAST are people CROSSING traffic by turning left.

 

Turning right would be in the same catagory as someone going straight, but they just peel off right. Left turns always yeild because they are crossing on coming traffic.

 

The only exception to this would be "IF" the north bound folks turning left had a green arrow to turn then the south bound folks have to yeild on the right turn....but you stated that there was NO turn arrows on the north bound side, so that is a different scenario

[longjohn]

I grew near there btw....

 

I agree with you and NOT the officer. 1st straight thru has the right of way, second, right turns have right of way, and LAST are people CROSSING traffic by turning left.

 

Turning right would be in the same catagory as someone going straight, but they just peel off right. Left turns always yeild because they are crossing on coming traffic.

 

The only exception to this would be "IF" the north bound folks turning left had a green arrow to turn then the south bound folks have to yeild on the right turn....but you stated that there was NO turn arrows on the north bound side, so that is a different scenario

 

But in this case they are not crossing traffic as they are turning from a one way street. Reading the cvc code provided by Bob above reveals that those turning left from the center lane can turn into any of the available lanes. So the cop on the street was right I guess, when he said they all had the right of way. It just makes for a mess in the morning rush hour. And no, there are no green arrows.

[kmac]

Here is a link to that intersection in satelite view:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=W+Manchester+Blvd+%26+S+Ash+Ave,+Inglewood,+Los+Angeles,+California+90301&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.410182,64.6875&ie=UTF8&geocode=FbU2BgIdG9jx-A&split=0&hq=&hnear=W+Manchester+Blvd+%26+S+Ash+Ave,+Inglewood,+Los+Angeles,+California+90301&ll=33.961487,-118.36809&spn=0.000566,0.000987&t=h&z=20

 

The people turning left are STILL CROSSING traffic. They are crossing the traffic on Manchester, and the traffic on S Ash.

 

So the statements earlier that BOTH have the right of way is somewhat true in that both the left and the right turners onto to W Manchester should have been able to turn, Left turners into the left lanes and right turners into the right lanes of Manchester. But to my understanding, if there has to be a clear one or the other choice....left turners have the LAST right of way....not worth arguing with a cop over, but lots of people misunderstand the fundamental rules of the road, even LEO's at times.

 

To test this concept, just pull up a lawn chair at a 4 way stop and watch the confusion.

[upflying]

Confusion is no doubt why the motor is there. A history of a lot of collisions at an intersection will attract motor officers like flies on stink.

Either handing out stubs or on-viewing a T/C, he's right there to help.

[MotorinLA]

Does sound like an engineering issue. Based on current traffic flow it sounds like there needs to be a designated turn arrow for both directions on Ash Ave, to avoid 'stand-offs' between opposing drivers.

 

 

For your right turners:

VC 21451(a) - Drivers shall proceed into an intersection when faced with a green signal, after yielding to traffic already legally within the intersection (cross traffic, etc.).

 

For your left turners:

VC 21801(a) - Drivers turning left shall yield right-of-way to all on-coming traffic, close enough to constitute a hazard (right turners on green).

 

For you:

VC 27001 - (a) - Drivers shall use horn when necessary to insure safe operation. (b) - The horn shall not otherwise be used (honking for inpatience).

 

VC 22100(a) - Approach to right turn and right turn shall be made as close as practicable to right hand edge of roadway (thus, turning right around the left side to the right turners is not permitted).

 

22107 - Turning movement shall not be made unless safe (turning left of the right turners and in between left turners, could easily be perceived as 'unsafe' by LEO and judge).

 

Impatience rarely makes for a winning argument in court.

 

I think the suggestion to enter from the next street east of Ash Ave, makes a lot more sense, regardless of whether or not it adds an extra traffic light. At least you can split lanes down Manchester Blvd after you merge onto that street.

[longjohn]

Good post Motor. Thanks. Using your VC references, tickets could be handed out all morning long.

 

Gonna be a bad driving day Thu. You know who is coming to town.

[MotorinLA]

Good post Motor. Thanks. Using your VC references, tickets could be handed out all morning long.

 

Gonna be a bad driving day Thu. You know who is coming to town.

 

Yeah, got ordered back to work to staff the street closure detail. Nothing like closing down busy commuter streets for 30 minutes during rush hour traffic.

 

And you thought Manchester and Ash was bad .

 

Gonna be a boat-load of pissed pirates out there tomorrow :frown:.

[David13]

Good deal John. I see you argue with some cops; just not all of them.

It's safer that way.

dc