Final Drive fluid change

[New2Wheeler]

I am new to wrenching on my '07 RT. I completed my 24k service last fall, and was very happy with how straight forward the bike was to work on. Unfortunately, I made a mistake... I used 75w150 fluid in the final drive instead of 75w90. Once I realized the error, about 6k later, I replace with the proper weight fluid. Being the obsessive person that I can be, I have now begun feeling the temperature of the final drive as I do my routine tire checks when stopping en route. Unfortunately I don't have a baseline to compare.... During a recent ride (ambient temp about 70F), interstate 70-80 mph, couple of hours, I could hold my hand on the final drive casing... was hot, let's say 130-140F. Anyone else check the temp of the final drive? What is normal?

 

thanks in advance.

[JayW]

I have never actually measured the temperature, but I have put my hand down there after a ride and 130ish sounds about right to me. It seems to vary with how aggressive I have been riding, and the ambient temperature of course.

 

You now have the right lube in there, so I think you're fine.

 

Jay

[New2Wheeler]

thanks Jay.

 

I see you are in Western NC. I'm in the middle of a relo to Columbia, SC. Really looking forward to being a couple hours from the BRM's. Not so excited about the interstates in Columbia (you know there is a problem with names like "malfunction junction" ha!!). But compared to our big city colleagues I'm sure there is no comparison.

[JayW]

Yes Matt, western NC is hard to beat for the sheer number and miles of great motorcycling roads. Feel free to contact me when you're in the area and I can show you some of my favorites.

 

Jay

[terryofperry]

If you can keep your bare hand on it it should be running cool enough. I measured mine on several occassions with thermal imaging and it runs between 129 and 138 degrees, depending on how hard I rode and the ambient temperature.

 

Good practice to keep checking it with your hand.

 

Terry

[spdyjr]

I have read on this forum where a dealer used 75w140 routinely. I wouldn't expect a problem since I'm believe the viscosity is only slightly higher at lower temps and more so at higher temps than the 75w90, which may be why the dealer was using it.

 

I've never read of any grease actually linked to the cause of the failure, but I go months sometimes without reading this forum.

 

When you replaced the grease did you go with the service bulletin recommended 180ml or the original higher amount (240ml?)?

 

I'm guessing BMW reduced the specified amount of grease so that it wasn't constantly above the level of the wheel bearing seal. Maybe that was done to keep the gear oil from mixing with the wheel bearing grease (a much higher viscosity). My friend's K1200GT had the wheel bearing failure problem which ended up destroying the entire final drive unit.

 

I'm sure some one (probably JVB) has the straight scoop on this one.

[New2Wheeler]

Yes, I went with the new spec of 180ml. And I did use the JVB disk, but somewhere got confused on the fluid weight. thanks for the feedback

[BerndM]

When I bought my used 06 R1200GS (same FD) the dealer had ALWAYS used 240ml of 75/140 at the 600/6000/12000/and 18000 services. When I got the bike, I did the 24000 service using the new REVISED oil recommendations, 180ml of 75/90.

That bike NEVER had ANY FD issues.

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Matt

 

Normal temp is relative to speeds being ridden, loads being carried, ambient temps, how much rear rake being used, and air flow to and over the final drive area. Exceptionally thick gear oil can add some heat also.

Run that bike at 125+ mph for an hour on a 95°f day and you can cook on that final drive.

 

A basic rule of thumb on a motorcycle final drive is: you are just peachy if you can lay your hand on it. For the ambient temps you were riding in and the speeds being ridden your drive sounds about right.

 

I have had my 1200 final drive way hotter than that when traveling fully loaded with camping gear at 95+ mph. But I have also failed a crown bearing on my RT and GS.

 

The usual failure point on the 1200 final drive is either an exterior seal leaking or the crown bearing. With the new 180cc fill level the seal failures seem to have subsided a bit. Seeing as the crown bearing is external to the gear oil on the 1200 RT there’s probably way more heat entering that bearing from heavy rear brake usage from high speed or repeated usage than from a bit of elevated gear oil temp riding down the road.

 

Early on in the 1200 RT era there were a few isolated rear pinion bearing failures but I haven’t heard of any since the larger rear pinion bearing was released.

 

[marcopolo]

As far as the viscosity of the gear oil, it has been 75W90, fully synthetic, GL5 from the day the hexhead was introduced. The fact that some dealers chose to use -- and sell to customers -- something else is neither here, nor there, as far as what BMW specified for the final drive.

[spdyjr]

No argument there marco. Just trying to set New2's mind at ease about having used the 75w140. If some dealer was using it routinely, 6k miles with it is unlikely to be a concern.

 

Had I been made aware of the error, I would have done the same as New2.

 

BMW also specifies, Castrol. I won't go that far.

[marcopolo]

No argument there marco. Just trying to set New2's mind at ease about having used the 75w140. If some dealer was using it routinely, 6k miles with it is unlikely to be a concern.

 

Had I been made aware of the error, I would have done the same as New2.

 

BMW also specifies, Castrol. I won't go that far.

 

I agree completely. I just never understood dealers using something other than what was specified. They either didn't know, or didn't care. Not sure which is worse.

[New2Wheeler]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Great forum and people!

[imeyers]

Just want to make sure as i am about to do my final drive fluid next weekend. My 05 service manual says .23L so instead i should use .18L which would be 180ml? It was done last by my dealer a little over 3 years ago but as the bike only has 6000 miles and i had him use Amsoil 75W-90 Sever Gear fluid i should be fine. The fluid is probably still fine but i just want to change it after this amount of time. Originally the 05 they said the rear drive fluid was good for life but i dont believe in that.

[99Roadster]

You got it right, it's 180ml now. GL-5 is the spec.

[imeyers]

Ok. Good To know. Amsoil 75W-90 meets GL-5 application standards."Recommended for use in differentials, manual transmissions and other gear applications requiring any of the following specifications: API GL-5, MT-1, MIL-PRF-2105E, Dana SHAES 234 (Formerly Eaton PS-037), Mack GO-J, or the differential (hypoid) gear oil specifications from all domestic and foreign manufacturers "

 

Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90

[dirtrider]

Morning imeyers

 

 

The thing to keep in mind when picking a gear oil for your final drive is: what usually fails on your particular final drive then pick a gear oil to protect that area without lowering the durability of the other parts.

 

In the case of your 05 final drive I haven’t ever heard of a gear set failure issue other than the rear pinion bearing failing. Lots of seal failures, a few crown bearing failures and some pinion seal leaks. Also some wheel flanges coming loose.

 

So, it sounds like about anything with a basic GL-5 rating will protect the non failing hypoid gear set.

Nothing gear oil wise will effect the crown bearing as on the 1200 hexhead that bearing doesn’t operate in the gear oil.

Again nothing gear oil wise will effect the wheel flange coming loose as that does not operate in the gear oil either.

 

SO, that leaves seal leaks and the pinion rear bearing that need the most protection from the chosen gear oil.

 

On the above, personally I would pick a gear oil with great seal conditioner in it and good bearing load protection over a severe gear wear protection gear oil. Great “extreme load” gear tooth protection doesn’t always run hand in hand with good seal protection or good bearing wear protection.

 

 

 

 

 

[NewBlue]

The FD is 75w90 Is 75w140 the spec for the transmission?

[dirtrider]

Morning New Blue

 

The BMW service manual calls for Hypoid-gear lubricant SAE 90 API GL 5.

 

I’m not sure it matters much in the trans as most of the bearings are clean (sealed with their own grease) and it’s a constant mesh with no syncros.

 

What I have (personally) found on the 1200 BMW trans is to use whatever makes them shift the best (within reason of course). As long as the gear oil is rated for manual transmissions and can handle moderate loading on helical gears. My local dealer uses 75w90.

 

Both my 1200’s shifted like crap with 75w140, one shifted like crap with the OEM gear oil (I presume SAE 90), they both shift OK using quality 75w90 synthetic. My last 1150 shifted best with 75w140.

 

Most 75w90 uplevel gear oil’s say they meet SAE 90 API GL 5 specs but that comes from the oil manufacturer not BMW. In the U.S. it’s real difficult t to find a decent SAE 90 API GL 5 gear oil anymore.

 

[NewBlue]

Thanks dirtrider

The reason I asked was I went to the dealer yesterday to pick up parts for the annual (2 year) They sold me the BMW 75w90 for the trans but I see that some are using 75w140 (pricey stuff)

I'll use what I bought. The manual notes Castrol SAF-XO

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Again New Blue

 

 

What manual do you have that shows Castrol SAF-XO for the 1200 hexhead trans? All my manuals show the SAE 90 for the trans with the Castrol SAF-XO for the final drive.

 

I believe the Castrol SAF-XO is a 75-90 oil.

 

 

[NewBlue]

Hi dirtrider,

 

BMW Motorrad Repair Manuals R Models K2x Street

2nd edition P/N 01797706308 It's dated 03/2008

[dirtrider]

Morning Again New Blue

 

 

Now there’s something new, all my BMW RepRoms show the

SAE 90 for the trans. I wonder when BMW engineering released that change from SAE 90 to the SAF-XO for the trans.

That also make me wonder if the late builds were coming from the factory with the SAF-XO oil in them.

 

[NewBlue]

From what I inderstand the SAF-XO is 75x90 the SAF-XJ is 75w140

The manual has " BMW recommends Castrol" so Castrol is involved in some way so I would think that to be the reason.

[dirtrider]

Morning Again New Blue

 

 

 

" BMW recommends Castrol”

 

That has been in the BMW service as well as riders manuals for a long time now. Must be a European thing as for along time the BMW branded oils in the U.S. were supplied by Spectro. I’m not sure who (BMW’s) supplier is now (I would imagine whoever is cheapest at the moment) but I don’t think it’s Spectro anymore.

 

Even that subtle Castrol recommendation is kind of close to the edge in the U.S. here as there are certain requirements in the U.S. that if a specific product by brand is required by a motor company they must supply it (usually for free).

Now a lot of companies can get around that rule by specifying a tight requirement that only their brand meets like maybe 65w160 oil or some such.

 

Even that SAF-XO oil is not easily found in the U.S. (I’m not sure they ever cleared it for import) but it seems to be available in Canada and some version of it in Land Rover dealers although I can’t find it as imported into the U.S. as SAF-XO. I looked in my companies available oil data and can’t find it in any form (legal) in the U.S. here. But maybe it’s imported under a different name or classification. You sure can’t seem to buy it at any U.S. BMW dealer I have looked in.

 

[NewBlue]

Hi dirtrider,

 

That is true regarding required and recommend.

Huge difference when a dealer uses those words incorrectly.

Recommended = you pay

Required = we pay

If a service or specific part is "required by a manufacturer to maintain warranty" it's on their dime. If a dealer tells you a 600 mile running in service is "required" you should not be charged. Many a court case has been won by the consumer because of those two words. If you choose to fight the fight, they play the odds that you won't.

[marcopolo]

SAF-XO is indeed a Castrol product (fully synthetic 75W90 GL-5 gear oil) and it is readily available in Canada from BMW motorcycle dealers. That's what the independent tech who maintains my R12RT uses in the FD. He has been using SAE 90 in the transmission. First I've heard of SAF-XO for the transmission. Are we absolutely sure that's correct?

[NewBlue]

I bought the BMW branded super synthetic 75w90 gear oil. Same that I use in the FD

 

From the manual:

 

"Using a funnel of similar instrument, pour the correct quantity of gearbox oil into the gearbox.

 

 

Technical data

Gearbox oil, capacity

to bottom edge of thread in filler neck

0.9 l

 

 

Consumables/lubricants

 

Castrol SAF-XO"

 

The SAF-XO is linked and when clicked pulls up the following P/N 33 11 7 695 240

 

 

 

[NewBlue]

Morning Again New Blue

 

 

 

" BMW recommends Castrol”

 

That has been in the BMW service as well as riders manuals for a long time now. Must be a European thing as for along time the BMW branded oils in the U.S. were supplied by Spectro. I’m not sure who (BMW’s) supplier is now (I would imagine whoever is cheapest at the moment) but I don’t think it’s Spectro anymore.

 

Even that subtle Castrol recommendation is kind of close to the edge in the U.S. here as there are certain requirements in the U.S. that if a specific product by brand is required by a motor company they must supply it (usually for free).

Now a lot of companies can get around that rule by specifying a tight requirement that only their brand meets like maybe 65w160 oil or some such.

 

Even that SAF-XO oil is not easily found in the U.S. (I’m not sure they ever cleared it for import) but it seems to be available in Canada and some version of it in Land Rover dealers although I can’t find it as imported into the U.S. as SAF-XO. I looked in my companies available oil data and can’t find it in any form (legal) in the U.S. here. But maybe it’s imported under a different name or classification. You sure can’t seem to buy it at any U.S. BMW dealer I have looked in.

 

I read the back of the BMW branded 20w50 dino and the 75w90 gear oil and they are both "packaged exclusively for BMW by spectro"

 

Go figure!!!!

[hopz]

 

 

Even that SAF-XO oil is not easily found in the U.S. (I’m not sure they ever cleared it for import)

 

In fact it is easily available, you just have to know where to look.

 

If you remember that BMW, for a while, owned a major stake in Land Rover... just go to the local Land Rover Dealer and purchase a bottle of Land Rover LRN 7591 branded Gear Oil. It has been proven to be the Castrol you are looking for. And, bonus, it is about half the price of the same gear oil sold at the BMW shop for our bikes. The quart bottle will fill your final drive 6 times.

 

By the way- this (entire) discussion can be found in numerous threads from a year or two ago.

[s3steve]

SAF-XO is indeed a Castrol product (fully synthetic 75W90 GL-5 gear oil) and it is readily available in Canada from BMW motorcycle dealers. That's what the independent tech who maintains my R12RT uses in the FD. He has been using SAE 90 in the transmission. First I've heard of SAF-XO for the transmission. Are we absolutely sure that's correct?

 

Was just at the dealer last week and they recommended SAF-XO for both the trans and FD...

 

I had to buy 2 one liter bottles at $38 buck a pop, now I have enough left for another 5 rear drive changes.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Steve

 

Next time you are at your dealer ask them when that SAF-XO recommendation went into effect?

 

[s3steve]

No problem dirtrider, next time I'm in I'll ask but I doubt the kid behind the counter will know so I'll see if the mechanic knows when the change was made.

 

The parts guy did have go an ask the mechanic about which was the right oil because my '06 had the "Life Time" FD oil spec. so I'm pretty sure this is what is now recommended. He also said 180 ml. so they seem to be up to date on the new spec.

 

 

 

 

[imeyers]

Morning imeyers

 

 

The thing to keep in mind when picking a gear oil for your final drive is: what usually fails on your particular final drive then pick a gear oil to protect that area without lowering the durability of the other parts.

 

In the case of your 05 final drive I haven’t ever heard of a gear set failure issue other than the rear pinion bearing failing. Lots of seal failures, a few crown bearing failures and some pinion seal leaks. Also some wheel flanges coming loose.

 

So, it sounds like about anything with a basic GL-5 rating will protect the non failing hypoid gear set.

Nothing gear oil wise will effect the crown bearing as on the 1200 hexhead that bearing doesn’t operate in the gear oil.

Again nothing gear oil wise will effect the wheel flange coming loose as that does not operate in the gear oil either.

 

SO, that leaves seal leaks and the pinion rear bearing that need the most protection from the chosen gear oil.

 

On the above, personally I would pick a gear oil with great seal conditioner in it and good bearing load protection over a severe gear wear protection gear oil. Great “extreme load” gear tooth protection doesn’t always run hand in hand with good seal protection or good bearing wear protection.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok i can agree with that but what is it about amsoil that you feel would not provide better protection than the castrol or other product. Just because it is great at protecting the gears does not mean it does not protect everything else. Quite the contrary. And independent testing has proved it but i know this will just start another oil/fluid war.

[dirtrider]

Ok i can agree with that but what is it about amsoil that you feel would not provide better protection than the castrol or other product. Just because it is great at protecting the gears does not mean it does not protect everything else. Quite the contrary. And independent testing has proved it but i know this will just start another oil/fluid war.

 

Afternoon imeyers

 

I have no problems with Amsoil, in fact I have used it quite a lot.

 

I wasn’t picking on your oil choice just mentioning that the best gear tooth contact protection oil isn’t always the best for seal or bearing protection.

Usually best gear tooth protection is full of moly & sulfur type additives and moly or sulfur isn’t always the best for roller bearing protection, especially if the bearings are running a bit tight. Same with the seals, some of the newer gear oils that tout better fuel economy do so by reducing the amount of seal conditioner as that reduces the seal drag.

Actually if it wasn’t for that Hypoid gear set in the final drive you would be better off using motor oil in there.

 

[hopz]

I had to buy 2 one liter bottles at $38 buck a pop, now I have enough left for another 5 rear drive changes.

 

FYI, when I bought the Land Rover (Castrol oil)... it was $10 a bottle.

[s3steve]

You know they us double for everything up here even though the Canuck Buck is worth more now! I guess we really are too polite to complain! LOL!!