04 RT Speed Bleeder Difficulties (and idiocy)

[TyTass]

Doing my 1st brake bleed job completely on my own (though have watched and assisted with 2 bleeds before). Am using the BMW Integral ABS Systems Flushing and Bleeding 101 as reference. (BTW: I did flatten the caliper SB tips to match the old.)

 

Anyway, I thought I'd get cute and install speed bleeders this time. Seemed like there was no way to do it without getting air in the system, though I did pretty much keep the mess under control.

 

Q#1. Any secret technique (that I should have read first) about getting the old bleeders out and the SBs in, without:

a. getting a fluid all over?

b. getting air in the system?

 

I then performed the bleed iaw the Bleeding and Flushing 101 guide. It took a long time, a lot of slow pumping, and a lot of fresh fluid to get the air out. However, after going through the full bleed several times for the front wheel and control circuits, the fluid did finally run clear and completely bubble-free.

 

Q#2. So far so good? Any potential problems to look for?

 

So in continuing on the rear control circuit I noticed the SB on the rear caliper was leaking. I went to to close it and SNAP! I even had the torque wrench right beside me all ready to go but instead relied on my calibrated hand.

 

As that SB mounts into an adapter, I ordered a new adapter and a new SB from SB.com. The parts have come in. Before I go tackle that replacement, and do something else stupid, can any one tell me:

 

Q#3. If this is the best way to proceed?

 

Q#4. Is there a procedure for replacing this adapter (I sure haven't found one yet)?

 

Q#5. Are there any cautions or warnings about replacing that adapter on the caliper?

 

Q#6. If it is straightforward replacement of the old adapter, what's the torque value for the adapter?

 

Can some one throw this a$$hat a bone?

[dirtrider]

Evening TyTass

 

 

 

Q#1. Any secret technique (that I should have read first) about getting the old bleeders out and the SBs in, without:

a. getting a fluid all over?-----For the calipers just use a lot of paper towels or rags and PROTECT ALL YOUR PAINTED SURFACES. Even plastic garbage bags work wonders for protecting things like wheels and the dash area. With a powered pump to power push the fluid through the calipers speed bleeders really aren’t needed on the calipers. I just use a long piece or clear hose pushed over the stock bleed screw with great success.

b. getting air in the system?-----You shouldn’t be getting any air in the system as fluid will want to flow out when a bleed screw is removed. As long as you don’t move a lever or pedal no air should enter the actual calipers.

I then performed the bleed iaw the Bleeding and Flushing 101 guide. It took a long time, a lot of slow pumping, and a lot of fresh fluid to get the air out. However, after going through the full bleed several times for the front wheel and control circuits, the fluid did finally run clear and completely bubble-free.

 

Q#2. So far so good? Any potential problems to look for?

 

So in continuing on the rear control circuit I noticed the SB on the rear caliper was leaking. I went to to close it and SNAP! I even had the torque wrench right beside me all ready to go but instead relied on my calibrated hand. ---- I don’t understand this as the caliper is not on the control circuit it is on the wheel circuit.

 

As that SB mounts into an adapter, I ordered a new adapter and a new SB from SB.com. The parts have come in. Before I go tackle that replacement, and do something else stupid, can any one tell me:

 

Q#3. If this is the best way to proceed?-----You will kind of have to figure it out as you go. Just be sure you get the “O” ring to stay in the correct place as you screw the adapter in.

 

Q#4. Is there a procedure for replacing this adapter (I sure haven't found one yet)?-----Not unless SB has one posted. I believe that adapter is not serviced by BMW so there would be no written procedure and no manual procedure for replacing it.

 

Q#5. Are there any cautions or warnings about replacing that adapter on the caliper?-----Just watch the “O” ring and be careful not to cross thread it.

 

Q#6. If it is straightforward replacement of the old adapter, what's the torque value for the adapter?-----Again I don’t think there is any as BMW doesn’t (didn’t anyhow) service that adapter. Just use the standard torque of “tight enough so it won’t come loose & not so tight as to break it off”…. Actually it doesn’t need to be real tight.

 

I will add that I would caution against using speed bleeders on the ABS controller itself as those things have caused others some breakage issues and are really not needed as the bleed nipples are very easy to access as you work the lever or pedal. Personally I would never install any speed bleeders on that very fragile aluminum ABS controller valve body.

Also make sure you know the control circuits from the wheel circuits before proceeding as the bleed procedure is different for one over the other.

Remember you are working with some VERY expensive hardware here so be sure to study EVERYTHING including how tight to tighten things before proceeding.

[TyTass]

Thanks. You confirmed pretty much what I'd guessed ... but didn't want to trust myself again.

 

Well, pretty much too later on the speed bleeders not being on the ABS unit. I've got them EVERYWHERE already!

 

As for the caliper not being on the ctrl circuit, I just meant that while doing the rear cntrl circuit that's when I noticed the rear caliper SB dripping. I didn't have it in well to begin with apparently (perhaps I had cross threaded it ... I don't know).

 

And yes ... I will be careful ... well, this time!

[Boffin]

Well, pretty much too later on the speed bleeders not being on the ABS unit. I've got them EVERYWHERE already!

 

It is not too late to change them back. I have seen an ABS controller with the corner broken off because of a weeping speed-bleeder being tightened down, Scratch $1000 or so.

 

Speedbleeders seem to me to be more trouble than help on these bikes.

 

Andy

[TyTass]

Ya know ... you have an excellent point there Andy!

[TracyMurphy]

Well, pretty much too later on the speed bleeders not being on the ABS unit. I've got them EVERYWHERE already!

 

It is not too late to change them back. I have seen an ABS controller with the corner broken off because of a weeping speed-bleeder being tightened down, Scratch $1000 or so.

 

Speedbleeders seem to me to be more trouble than help on these bikes.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

So are you saying a speed bleeder will weep where the stock bleeder will not in the same hole?? I changed mine to speed bleeders also and have one that weeps when you crack it to bleed. I was very careful when I put them in starting with my fingers so as to not cross thread.

A new Pressure modulator, fully integral ABS is $2468.59 (US)from BMW

 

Thanks,

Tracy

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Tracy

 

Standard bleeder screws can weep a little when opened to bleed the system as there is no sealer on the bleed screw threads. You can put your own thread sealer on the threads and make the stock bleed screws as fluid seeping tight as the speed bleeders.

 

As a rule speed bleeder screws come with a thread sealer on them to prevent weeping when opened. If your bleed screw seeps when opened that probably means the thread sealer is not doing it’s job. That would not be caused by how the screw was started or tightened but the sealer can become ineffective if the screw is opened and closed many times, or the sealer is just lacking in sealing performance.

 

Problem with speed bleeders is: due to the check valve it takes a little more pressure to open that valve and let the fluid pass so they tend to have a little higher pressure at the thread area while bleeding. SO, if you have one with improper sealer it seems to leak more than the stock ones.

 

That sealer is part of the reason I don’t like speed bleeders on the ABS controllers. The controller valve body is soft material and some of the holes are close to the sides of the valve body. That sealer on the speed bleeder is like using oversized bleed screw. Plus some of the speed bleeders seem to need to be over-tightened to seal effectively (another possible problem area on those fragile ABS valve bodies).

 

I haven’t ever understood the appeal of using speed bleeders on anything you can reach both the bleed screw and hand lever or foot lever at the same time. A long piece of hose on the stock bleed screw then placed in bottle on the floor works every bit as good as a speed bleeder including limiting fluid return and air entry. Especially on the 1150 BMW I-ABS systems as you can easily reach the control side controller bleed screws while standing next to the bike and the calipers are power bled using the ABS pump so that is strictly a powered fluid push with no return stroking.

 

[TracyMurphy]

Hi DR,

 

Now that I have done the ABS bleed I see what you mean about not needing the speed bleeders at this location, but I had already purchased and installed them prior to bleeding. The one that "weeps" is in the #1 location. It waas new and I even put another new one in and it (the second new one) did the same thing, so I guess the next time I have the tank off I will put the stock one(s) back in and see how it goes. Looks like I could have found a better use of $42.00

[TyTass]

Alright ... Round 2 ... (did I say the word "round") ...

 

The old adapter will not come off!

 

Instead it has rounded and continues round further regardless of what I do. And that's with me using a 6-pt 17mm socket, a 17mm open ended wrench - not some cheesy 12-pt.

 

Q#1. Any thoughts on how to get this adapter off?

 

At this point a used rear caliper is looking like the better way through this problem. And there is one for sale not far from me here in MD (of course I couldn't be 100% certain if it's any good other than the seller's assertions).

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Ty

 

Well you just entered uncharted territory. There is more than likely a reason BMW doesn’t service that adapter.

 

I don’t know what to really tell other than you are at a point you are more than likely going to need help. That help could be as easy as just heating the adapter enough to allow it to come loose. Or maybe needing to weld a large nut on the adapter to both heat it and add something to get a better purchase on.

 

At your point a person needs to fall back on past experience and have actual hands on to move forward. Even then that plan can change quickly and change a few times as things start to move in different directions.

 

To heat it effectively with minimal caliper paint damage and minimal caliper piston damage the caliper really needs to be removed from the bike then the pads and piston removed so the piston “O” ring isn’t damaged from heat. Heating has to be quick with pin point accuracy (in other words not a broad propane torch flame). Once hot maybe a something like a pipe wrench or vice grips will motivate it to move.

 

Without being there and having hands on my best advise is to remove the caliper, remove the pads and piston then take it to local machine shop or trusted machinist.

 

You have to ask and check around as a used caliper just might be the cheapest way to go if you need to pay a shop to remove that adapter.

 

One other suggestion: if the adapter and the broken off bleeder isn’t leaking just remove the caliper (leave hose attached), then install a piece of wood between the brake pads, then tilt the caliper so the brake hose attachment is a at the very top, then bleed the caliper at the brake hose banjo bolt. Air always moves to the top so should come out whatever is the highest point.

 

[pmurphy]

Alright ... Round 2 ... (did I say the word "round") ...

 

The old adapter will not come off!

 

Instead it has rounded and continues round further regardless of what I do. And that's with me using a 6-pt 17mm socket, a 17mm open ended wrench - not some cheesy 12-pt.

 

Q#1. Any thoughts on how to get this adapter off?

 

At this point a used rear caliper is looking like the better way through this problem. And there is one for sale not far from me here in MD (of course I couldn't be 100% certain if it's any good other than the seller's assertions).

 

You can take the caliper off and send it to Speedbleeder for removal of the damaged bleeder (see http://www.speedbleeder.com/News.htm) They also have some recommendations of other ways to remove it yourself, such as drilling and tapping the bleeder, or welding on a nut.

 

[TyTass]

The adapter in the caliper sure is a soft material, I can tell you that for nothing.

 

Yeah, in either the long or the short run here, admitting ignorance is the better part of valor ... so, I'm simply going to punt and buy that used caliper.

 

(I'll play with my old one later - as you said - off the bike and see if I can get the adapter off then.)

 

The seller apparently is a motorcycle repair shop only about 40 miles distant (who knew?) that sells extensively on ebay (and has a great rating), so that seems the path forward with the least resistance (as well as the fewest possible disasters).

 

The caliper for sale is for an '03. In looking at an online BMW parts fiche, it indicates the same caliper applies to all Integral ABS 1150RTs. So, I should be good there. Since I'm local, perhaps I can see what condition it's really in.

 

Wish me luck.

[Temeneos]

I pulled the OEM caliper bleed screws front and rear and installed SpeedBleeders 'cuz at the time it seemed the thing to do. I have had no problems so far, but this post has me convinced it was a bad choice - not worth the risk and possible headaches. Lucky for me, I kept the original bleed screws as backups. I'm going to yank the SB's and replace them with the original screws. Sometimes "old school" is the way to go, huh? I need to remember that more often...

[SANTA]

I don't have an opinion on speedbleeders... okay i do.

 

i think they are a really bad idea, do an internet search on the number that have broken of in a brake caliper or ABS block etc. when you consider the cost, time wasted and aggravation if you break one and can't remove it, asking someone to give you a hand for 5-15min is not that hard, i have bleed the brakes solo using just the bleed screws installed

 

okay now back to "no opinion"...