Are there still issues with final drives on newer rt?

[smooth cruise]

I know this subject has probably been beat to death but I was wondering if there are still issues with FD on 2010+ RT's

 

there's a thread on another forum that raised the issue and it got me a little concerned but I can't find any solid info.

 

thanks (I just got a 2011 in Oct. it's a great ride)

[Twisties]

Every time we think it's fixed, more failed drives crop up. Maybe something got fixed on the 2010's, but likely it's far too early to tell. I don't recall anyone saying that it's a new design.

 

There is no hard info, and never has been, and seems like their never will be.

 

I don't know that it's anything to really worry about anyway. The vast majority of bikes will never have a problem. Most guesstimates are in the 1-5% range. You have a 3 year warranty. Ride!

[NewBlue]

I see a lot of polls of FD failures that contain random replies.

To me a failure is something that involves a major component not a seal leak. I truly believe they are few and far between at this point. It is something I never worry about. If I have a problem within the 3/36 they fix it after that I'll do the repair and move on.

If I was one who had a problem with it I'd still tell you the same thing, don't loose sleep over it.

 

If you really want to experience failures buy GE

[dirtrider]

Evening smooth cruise

 

I know of one 2010 RT final drive failure in my group of riding friends. It was the wheel side crown bearing.

 

The good news on the 1200RT final drive failure is the usual failure point is the crown bearing. Unlike the older 1100/1150 final drives the 1200 has the crown bearing running external to the main gear oil chamber sitting in it’s own cavity and carrying it’s own grease.

 

What this means is the bearing doesn’t seem to fail instantly like on the older final drives. The bearing starts getting noisier and growly long before total failure. The failure also doesn’t fill the final drive with broken bearing pieces and doesn’t usually spit gear oil all over the rear tire.

 

I failed a crown bearing on my last 1200RT. I was on a trip loaded with camping gear and the bearing started to get noisy, I could also feel the roughness in the riders foot pegs. I completed my trip (about 600 miles more riding) then had the bearing replaced under warranty when I got home. The bearing looked pretty bad and most of the grease was gone but it did get me home without failure or handling issues.

 

Since BMW decreased the gear oil fill level the seal leakage issues also seem to have subsided somewhat so that is good news.

 

I still don’t like BMW’s final drive crown bearing (designed-to-fail) press fit on BOTH ID and OD but at least the failures seem to be getting fewer and there seems to be some pre-warning as the bearing starts to fail, plus the ability to ride a ways on a failing bearing.

 

 

 

[Skywagon]

I know it is too early to know about 1600 failures, but do you know if they changed the design vs press fit

[dirtrider]

Evening Skywagon

 

I haven’t even seen the new 1600 in person yet and don’t have either a service manual or parts manual so I can’t really comment on if the final drive design is the same or different.

 

Let’s hope they have done their homework and at least refined the final drive to be a little more reliable than in the past.

 

 

 

[betty]

Having been the recipient of a failed final drive 2 times and having BMW tell me to stick it in my ass I can tell you the problem is real and if you talk to the service techs they agree there is a problem. My local dealer has seen failures in the new 2010 R bikes. He warned me about this before I purchased my '11 RT. Unfortunately there is no other bike out there that fits me and my riding style. I am giving BMW one last shot. If this '11 fails I will have to look at other brands. Maybe I will be old enough at that point to ride a wing.

[w2ge]

Having a fairly new RT, 2010 with only 2800 mile so far... Has there been a mileage marker at which it tends to fail, or is it wily-nilly.. i.e. anytime, new or old, high or low mileage? And indicators?? Noise, I read.. anything else to let me know it's failing or failed? Symptoms? (Fever, cough, diarrhea, oil-puking?)

[Twisties]

There are several failure modes. As has been mentioned, reducing the lubricant volume "seems" to have reduced seal failures. I'm not an expert on the things, but folk still talk about several different bearings failing and some sort of flange failure, if I have it right.

 

Experiences vary. Some get the gravelly sound, and others experience play in the wheel. You should check your wheel for excessive play frequently.

 

We have had oil puking, and one reported fire subsequent to that, however, so far as has been reported on this forum, no injuries to date. Strandings, yes, strandings in inconvenient or scary places, yes. Poor handling due to play, yes, wheels coming off, no. Loss of braking due to oil puking, yes. But so far no injuries.

 

But no, no mileage marker. Drives fail from a few hundred miles up to 70k miles. At some point you have to define the problem, pre-mature failure. At what point is it no longer pre-mature? Something north of 100k miles in my book.

[tallman]

Model year, mileage and months out of warranty at the times of these failures?

Just curious because I've seen many assists from BMW when a bike was OOW.

Alsocurious as to maintenance done.

Thanks.

[markgoodrich]

Since this thread is wandering all over the place, I'll toss in my useless comment: I've changed the FD oil three times in 58,000 miles. The first time, the factory-installed oil was dark, thick, and very stinky. The second time the Castrol I used (I think it was synthetic or a synth blend) was dark, thick, and very stinky. Both of those fills were the old 225cc (or whatever it was) This week the Royal Purple synth was clean, sweet-smelling, and sanitary. This last time the oil had about 24,000 miles on it, I think, and I simply pumped oil in until it began to run out of the drain hole...the new standard of about 180 cc, I think.

 

Make of this what you will.

 

FDs are the mythical Achilles heels of the RTs. Much more fun than the cracked frames of my '03 Goldwing days.

[malcolmblalock]

Mine is not a new one; it's an 05 that had 82,000 on the clock when it failed. My failure was a small oil leak and a wobbly rear wheel.

 

It was maintained by changing fluid at 44,000 miles (fluid looked pretty good; not very dark, but had some odor)(it was supposed to never need changing), at about 59,000 miles (fluid looked pretty much new), and again at around 70,000 miles (fluid looked great). When it was removed, the fluid that ran out of it looked and smelled new.

 

Since the bike had 82,000 miles, I didn't bother BMW with it. Found a used final drive for $650 and installed it.

 

My experience... for what it's worth.

 

My real hope is that my 09 RT doesn't go through the same issue.

[I812]

Redline on the way.

[NewBlue]

If you look at dirtriders post he noted that the majority of the failures are with the crown bearing. This is a greased, sealed bearing and is not lubed by the FD oil. In this case redline, bluecircle, or any other lube isn't going to help.

 

The bearing P/N was changed but I don't know when or what is different about it.

It was $75.00 and is now $110.00 so it has to be better

 

If the bearing is a concern, replace it every X miles as a PM

There's really nothing else you can do as far as bearing maintenance.

[dirtrider]

---The bearing P/N was changed but I don't know when or what is different about it.

 

Morning NewBlue

 

That is real good question, my best engineering guess would be the crown bearings running radial clearance was changed from a ‘normal’ or possibly a ‘C-3’ to a ‘C-4’ bearing (larger nominal running clearance). Special select bearings like a C-4 are usually more costly due to not being main stream bearings. (I used to put C-4 bearings in the old 1100/1150 “when I could get them”)

 

Early on the 1200 hexhead seemed to have a fairly tight rear bearing even when cold. Almost no bearing play at all. Some of the newer bikes seem to have some little amount of rear wheel play when cold.

 

As I mentioned in my post above the BMW crown bearing is a fairly tight press fit on both the ID and OD. This works in most situations that have very tightly controlled and inspected machining control of the inner shaft diameter and shape and outer bearing hole and shape. Being production pieces, possibly even done by different vendors, I just don’t know how close BMW production can hold those tolerances in a production setting. (why I say designed for failure)

 

Then you have other factors to deal with like the inner shaft and inner bearing race running hot and expanding the inner race while the outer cover and outer bearing rides down the road at speed exposed to sometimes sub freezing ambient’s (can you say tight bearing). THEN, you make two or three stops from 90 mph so that really heats up the brake rotor and transfers heat into the wheel flange and inner shaft (there goes all your bearing radial clearance minus some).

 

Strange that BMW has been fighting crown bearing failures for years yet has failed to change the design of ID/OD press fit even with the new design and moving the bearing out to a separate chamber. The hollow internal shaft was a positive move as well as the floating non wheel side bearing.

I sure don’t know what the answer is and I’m sure BMW engineering has been tearing their hair out trying to find a CHEAP answer to their continued final drive failure issues.

 

In my opinion the real cure would be a tapered roller bearings on each end but that is very difficult to do (cheaply) on a single sided swing arm that needs to carry a pretty hefty radial and axial load rating. Tapered bearings with enough size and load carrying capacity would be large, heavy, and more importantly w-i-d-e. Plus they take skilled workers to assemble and control the initial set-up at assembly.

 

We’ll see where this final drive thing goes as time passes. Maybe they have a handle on it with a new bearing release or maybe a more controlled initial machining and inspection process. Possibly just bringing the final drive machining, inspection, and assembly process back in-house can improve the outcome.

 

[NewBlue]

Hmmm, If radial loading is the issue the shaft could be machined to lessen the interference fit. Figuring what that spec should be is above my pay grade.

 

The FD is a thought but not a worry so hopefully if I need to cross that bridge BMW or a forum member will come up with a solution.

 

Thanks for the information.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon NewBlue

 

Not that simple. The bearing inner race to shaft is a precision press fit and must maintain that overlap to account for a max dimension bearing or a min dimension shaft. If the shaft is simply ground smaller there is always the chance a min shaft in a max bearing will spin within the bearing race or float around.

A C-4 or C-5 bearing will maintain the same pres fit while allowing more running clearance for the balls @ worst case.

 

[NewBlue]

Yeah, I hear you. Kind of thinking out loud if the mass produced FD shaft was out of tolerance... I'll stop there cuz for a 20k bike this is something I, or anyone else, should worry about.

 

That said, I dare it to fail. No, I double dare it.

[basilr]

Why doesn't BMW just get their FDs from Honda?

[betty]

Why doesn't BMW just get their FDs from Honda?

 

Funny you say that because the shop that fixed my rear drive (a crown bearing failure at 42k and again a seal failure at 47k) has Hondas come into his shop with 200k an no final drive issues.

[aggieengineer]

While I think single-sided swingarms are more trouble than they're worth, I have to admit, you never hear about failures on Goldwings. What does Honda know about engineering or manufacturing that has escaped BMW? Is their continued use of their FD design a sign of confidence, or possibly an example of the "not invented here" syndrome. One thing is certain. If the K1600s start failing drives, BMW's reputation is going to be truly tarnished.

[Selden]

I don't think it's the engineering, per se, but rather that the engineers and the production line don't have as good a communication as would be desired. IF you get a FD that has been assembled properly, it will last damn near forever. If you get a bad one, good luck. Japanese engineering, on the other hand, seems to avoid production line screwups. OR, at least, that's my impression. It's also why I intend never to buy a new boxer. By 30,000 miles, it should be clear if you have a good one or a lemon.

[Marty Hill]

Why doesn't BMW just get their FDs from Honda?

 

Funny you say that because the shop that fixed my rear drive (a crown bearing failure at 42k and again a seal failure at 47k) has Hondas come into his shop with 200k an no final drive issues.

 

I'm sure your aware that there are BMW's with 200k and no f/d failures as well. I'll be at guelph aerodrome visiting the tiger boys in late may.

[aggieengineer]

I must admit, I'm quite surprised that there are hexheads with that kind of mileage, especially on the original drive. Impressive.

 

The real question is, how likely is an Evo-Paralever-equipped bike to make it to a reasonable lifespan (say 75,000 miles) in comparison to a Honda, or Kawasaki? A big sample would weed out the statistical anomalies. Unfortunately, we're unlikely to see that kind of information.

[Paul Mihalka]

What happens is the BMW bike design attracts riders who do real high mileage. For many 75.000 miles is not even half life. The problem is that with production tolerances a few have problems and get reported and hammered on, while many go on and on. So when they are good they are very very good, and when they are bad they are awful.

[SuperG]

Here in Austin TX, motor cops use BMW as of late. One of my dirt riding buddy motors on BMW since Austin police switched from Harleys. I asked him about final drive issues on the 1150 and 1200, he did not know what I was talking about. While he is not a mechanic that works on those BMWs but he should be aware of it (FD issues) by now since they ride them every day.

[w2ge]

Cake.. I'm gonna dig up some back issues of MCN. They did a series of articles on Police Bike maintenance using detailed police records/analysis that (I believe) used Arizona and/or Ohio statistics.. It was a very detailed series of articles on costs, breakdown issues, comparing the Harley's, old Kawasaki's and BMW 1150 and 1200 RT-P's. I'll see if specific costs were mentioned regarding FD issues.. I know the R1200's cost them a lot less to maintain than the 1150's.

[scott r1200rt]

All the honda's that make it that many miles does not have a single sided swing arm. The new VFR does, lets see how it fairs. BMW could fix all it's problems if they got rid of the single sided swing arm.

[aggieengineer]

The Gold Wing has a single-sided swingarm, and has no notoriety for failures.

[1LIFE2LIVE]

33,000 miles on my 08RT and the only issues under warranty have been:

 

Battery replaced, Head Light Wiring Harness replaced, Brake Line (recall) replaced, Rear Seal replaced (changed fluid and Final Drive checked out ok); other than that 33k miles of Smiles.

 

Dealer had been EXCELLENT !!!

[JT R1200R]

Nope they never fail anymore

[w2ge]

Nope they never fail anymore

 

There! The answer I wanted to hear! (wish it was true.....)

[betty]

Why doesn't BMW just get their FDs from Honda?

 

Funny you say that because the shop that fixed my rear drive (a crown bearing failure at 42k and again a seal failure at 47k) has Hondas come into his shop with 200k an no final drive issues.

 

I'm sure your aware that there are BMW's with 200k and no f/d failures as well.

 

Yeah well I want one then. The service tech was telling me the early drives were okay and would last but the later drives were giving them grief.

[smooth cruise]

newbie question

to check the rear wheel for play.. i'd put the bike on the center stand and kind of rock the wheel like I was trying to remove it??

 

 

does the gs have the same f/d issue?

thanks

[Boxtop]

Yes and yes.

 

Grab the wheel at noon and 6, and try to twist it back and forth around the bike's longitudinal axis. Do the same at 3 and 9 around a vertical axis. There should be little or no play.

 

This is not a foolproof test. On my '09 RT, at least one FD bearing was failed, and the seal was puking oil, but rear wheel played remained almost zero.

[Twisties]

newbie question

to check the rear wheel for play.. i'd put the bike on the center stand and kind of rock the wheel like I was trying to remove it??

 

 

does the gs have the same f/d issue?

thanks

 

All modern BMW shaft drives have the issue.

 

Yes, on center stand. Grip the wheel at 3 and 9 O'clock, and try to wiggle it. Then again at 12 and 6. Up to 1 mm play is allowed.

[dirtrider]

That rear wheel bearing checking procedure as Jan furnished above is just a little more involved than stated.

 

The final drive must be below 95°f and the rear brake pads should be pushed back off the brake rotor before using the 1mm play method.

Brake pad resisting the rotor movement and a hot final drive bearings can effect the wheel movement.

 

[Marty Hill]

dirtrider, thank you for your many contributions.

 

 

[smooth cruise]

thanks for the info

[rgd]

6K on 09RT and only issues have been Battery just replaced - hard to start even after a charge, Brake Line recall also, Final Drive checked no issues(it just seemed like it had more play than it should have at 6K). I have done all maint on the bike to date. Easy to work on...

 

Falcone in Indy has been great

[tsp]

What I'm planning on doing to my 2010 R1200RT is swap out the FD with the rear wheel setup of a modern day Harley. If it makes the job easier, I'll go ahead and swap out the transmission also since the newer HD transmissions are 6 speed anyway.

 

Perfect solution - no more FD worries, yet it's belt for low maintenance and no chain to oil.

 

tsp

2010 R1200RT

PS: I'm thinking of attaching a piece of rebar to the clutch side of the rear wheel to help steady the rear wheel.

[dirtrider]

What I'm planning on doing to my 2010 R1200RT is swap out the FD with the rear wheel setup of a modern day Harley. If it makes the job easier, I'll go ahead and swap out the transmission also since the newer HD transmissions are 6 speed anyway.

 

Perfect solution - no more FD worries, yet it's belt for low maintenance and no chain to oil.---

 

 

Afternoon TSP

 

Even assuming it could be done (remember the engine crankshafts point in different directions) you would still have the basic belt issue. Those belts are not as bullet proof as people think as even a small stone or other road debris that punctures the outer edge of the belt & cause a belt to tear then break.

 

I have had Harley’s for years and had two catastrophic belt failures that required a tow on one and a trailer pick up on another.

 

Just visit about any Harley dealer on a Saturday or Sunday and you will usually see a couple of dressers trailered in due to broken drive belts.

 

The other thing to consider is I can install a new crown bearing in a BMW 1100/1150 a lot quicker than I can install a new drive belt on a Harley dresser. Not quite so quick, and sure more tools required on the BMW hexhead though.

 

 

 

[w2ge]

What I'm planning on doing to my 2010 R1200RT is swap out the FD with the rear wheel setup of a modern day Harley. If it makes the job easier, I'll go ahead and swap out the transmission also since the newer HD transmissions are 6 speed anyway.

 

Perfect solution - no more FD worries, yet it's belt for low maintenance and no chain to oil.

 

tsp

2010 R1200RT

PS: I'm thinking of attaching a piece of rebar to the clutch side of the rear wheel to help steady the rear wheel.

 

Man.. your going all "high-tech" on us... Cutting edge!

[aggieengineer]

In some ways, a belt seems appealing, but how do they accomodate suspension travel without having big variations in belt tension? I've not seen an idler tensioner on a bike before. Works good in a car, however. A well-designed shaft drive seems to be the ideal solution for a touring bike.

[Twisties]

What I'm planning on doing to my 2010 R1200RT is swap out the FD with the rear wheel setup of a modern day Harley. If it makes the job easier, I'll go ahead and swap out the transmission also since the newer HD transmissions are 6 speed anyway.

 

Perfect solution - no more FD worries, yet it's belt for low maintenance and no chain to oil.

 

tsp

2010 R1200RT

PS: I'm thinking of attaching a piece of rebar to the clutch side of the rear wheel to help steady the rear wheel.

[dirtrider]

Evening aggieengineer

 

Well it isn’t perfect but close enough. The front of the rear swing arm pivots somewhat close to the center of the front belt pulley on the trans output. Therefore the belt stays close to the same tension through pretty much of the (normal) suspension travel. There is a slight tightening and loosening of the belt through travel but close enough that the belt works just fine without a tensioner. Actually better than most chain drives. The suspension travel is limited so it only has to work through limited travel. The belt would get pretty loose or tight at points past normal suspension travel.

 

 

[KDeline]

I know this subject has probably been beat to death but I was wondering if there are still issues with FD on 2010+ RT's

 

there's a thread on another forum that raised the issue and it got me a little concerned but I can't find any solid info.

 

thanks (I just got a 2011 in Oct. it's a great ride)

 

 

IMO as long as BMW stays with that single sided swingarm there will be issues. They just cannot seem to get it right. I have had 3 failures on 3 bikes, one last year leaving the UN and MOA in the middle of a trip to Alaska.

[James Clark]

What I'm planning on doing to my 2010 R1200RT is swap out the FD with the rear wheel setup of a modern day Harley. If it makes the job easier, I'll go ahead and swap out the transmission also since the newer HD transmissions are 6 speed anyway.

 

Perfect solution - no more FD worries, yet it's belt for low maintenance and no chain to oil.---

 

 

Afternoon TSP

 

Even assuming it could be done (remember the engine crankshafts point in different directions) you would still have the basic belt issue.

 

Transverse gearbox. The power has to be turned eventually.

 

Those belts are not as bullet proof as people think as even a small stone or other road debris that punctures the outer edge of the belt & cause a belt to tear then break.

 

I have had Harley’s for years and had two catastrophic belt failures that required a tow on one and a trailer pick up on another.

 

Just visit about any Harley dealer on a Saturday or Sunday and you will usually see a couple of dressers trailered in due to broken drive belts.

 

The other thing to consider is I can install a new crown bearing in a BMW 1100/1150 a lot quicker than I can install a new drive belt on a Harley dresser. Not quite so quick, and sure more tools required on the BMW hexhead though.

 

 

 

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Emergency-Drive-Belt-Replacement-Kit-2.htm

[dirtrider]

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Emergency-Drive-Belt-Replacement-Kit-2.htm

 

 

Evening James

 

Unfortunately those emergency belts only fit the older EVO Harley’s (used to carry one myself). I haven’t ever seen one for the newer twinkie Harley’s using the narrow drive belt.

 

 

[James Clark]

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Emergency-Drive-Belt-Replacement-Kit-2.htm

 

 

Evening James

 

Unfortunately those emergency belts only fit the older EVO Harley’s (used to carry one myself). I haven’t ever seen one for the newer twinkie Harley’s using the narrow drive belt.

 

 

They kept the wide belts up until they put 180s on Softails and Dynas. I keep an ERB on my '99 which is still running the original belt @155K. "New" wheel sprocket, tho.