Did I fry the CanBus?

[drswift]

Went to start my bike yesterday and the battery was dead. My battery charger wouldn't work with the power socket, so I pulled the seat and connected the charger to the battery and charged it up overnight. This morning the battery is charged, the switch turns on everything. The starter turns, but the engine won't fire. I get the little empty battery and engine outline on the LED display. Then a friend told me I should have completely removed the battery from the system before re-charging. Did I fry the Motronics or CanBus?

[Tank]

I haven't done it yet, but I do know people that run a plug to the battery directly and plug their charger in.... the battery is still connected to the system

 

Coarsegold Kid, where are ya

[Firefight911]

No, it's fine. Disconnect the battery, have it load tested, my bet is the battery is bad.

 

CANBus is nothing other than a communication protocol. Your ZFE module regulates and controls this stuff.

 

Many, many times there have been stories of everything appearing fine but no start. Swap the battery and all is fine.

 

Run a pigtail direct to battery for charging. You need this anyway so you can run a tire pump if needed. The ZFE will shut down your circuit with a cycle pump anyway

[Sailorlite]

Dave -

 

When you turn the key to the start position, can you hear the fuel pump whining briefly? If not, then I would check the fuel pressure controller on the fuel tank. (You can bypass it temporarily to get the FP running).

 

I don't see how you could have damaged canbus components connecting the charger as you did, although some do suggest removing the battery for charging. When you say the starter turns, I assume you mean that it turns over the engine in the normal manner. If so, the batt. must be sufficiently charged for starting. If not, I'd consider replacing the battery.

[drswift]

Great help, all. I'll try swapping out the battery tomorrow and see if that's it. I'm pretty sure the fuel pump is running.

[dirtrider]

Morning Dave

 

You didn’t fry the CanBus but might have confused one of your system computers.

 

First off, what color was the little triangle above the engine outline and empty battery indicator?

What colors were engine outline and battery indicator (yellow or red?)

 

Red indicates the most serious condition and probably the one that shut you down.

 

In any case first try disconnecting the battery for about 2 minutes, then re-connect it, then try to start the bike. That should clear any computer problems.

 

You don’t have any other things showing on your screen like EWS do you?

 

[bobbybob]

You said the starter turns but no start; do you mean it turns over normally? Or extremely slowly? If normally, doesn't sound like a battery problem. Be sure to open and shut the throttle a couple times before trying to crank to reset the FI settings.

[hopz]

Hi Dave... sorry to hear this.

My first guess is that there is no damage to the CANBUS.

 

My other guess is that it is something really simple. It will reveal itself soon.

[GordonB]

Could the dead battery symbol be referring to a OEM alarm system (if installed) in need of battery replacement and is it possible bike won't start for that?

[drswift]

I listened for the fuel pump, and it clicks when I push the starter, not before.

 

I was too lazy to pull all the tupperware and tank to swap the battery, so I tried using jumper cables off my 1150 RT to the cables on the 1200. Fired up the 1150, and at first just got an EWS message on the 1200. Then cranked up the revs. I couldn't get the 1200 to do anything but give a loud clicking in the starter. Wouldn't even turn over.

 

I'm snowed in, so I'm going to have my local guy order a new battery and cross my fingers.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Dave

 

If you have an EWS message--- IT WON’T START. Nor WILL it start until you get rid of that EWS lockout.

 

You need to address that EWS or forget about it starting.

 

Like I mentioned above, disconnect a battery cable for a few minutes, then re-connect and see if the EWS is gone. If the EWS is still there try another key (like the spare key)

 

If you can’t get the EWS to go away you will probably need dealer involvement or troubleshoot the system yourself.

 

You don’t need to remove the Tupperware to replace the battery on a 1200 RT.

 

[NewBlue]

Won't you get an EWS with low battery voltage?

Hook up the jumper cables to your auto but don't start the engine, the procedure is in the owners manual or if the starter is just clcking replace the battery, knwon issue, and procede with caution from there.

 

[drswift]

Since I'm stuck anyway I decided to check the possibility of a fuel pump issue. (I don't know why that would suddenly crop up since the bike is keep in a dry, 50* garage). Anyway, I check the old battery again, and it's still showing 12.4 Volts, enough I assume to power on the fuel pump. When I re-installed the battery and turned on the key I don't hear anything now like a fuel pump clicking away.

 

Somebody suggested going around the fuel pressure switch. Would this get the fuel pump to fire?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Dave

 

I believe if you STILL have the EWS showing that will lock out the fuel pump until you get rid of the EWS anti theft lock out.

 

If you have EWS that needs to be addressed first as it shuts down a lot of operational things like ignition and fuel.

 

 

Added: 12.4 volts is pretty low so your battery is not exactly up to par charge wise.

 

What is the voltage with key on, how about with the key turned to crank position? That will tell the story.

 

[drswift]

Not getting anything on the display but intermittent battery and engine outline symbol, so EWS isn't not an issue now.

 

Key on is the same. When starter is hit it drops to 11.3.

[BMWRich58]

First of all...yur gonna get THIS

 

...as a result from a weak or lo battery..That clickin' an clackin's from the starter's solenoid .. not enough power from the battery to keep it engaged.

The battery might show a surface charge of 12+ volts but as soon as you apply a load to the battery the voltage drops,which most likely is caused from a bad cell.

An automotive jump should start the bike. I know,I did it several times already to these CanBus equipped bikes, just to get them to safety (shop).

[dirtrider]

When starter is hit it drops to 11.3.

 

Evening Dave

 

That ain’t gonna get it. You need more voltage than that so try an overnight charge THEN use the jumper cables. Something bigger than another bike battery would be best but if the battery is charged MAYBE your other bike might be enough. If you have a truck or car handy that would be best to jump from.

 

OK, on your EWS gone now. I just saw the EWS was on from one of your posts above. IF you have EWS showing nothing is going to work.

 

[drswift]

My buddy with an '05RT says he doesn't hear anything from the fuel pump when he turns on the key, just the brake servo.

 

If it stops snowing tomorrow I can move the bike out next to my car and try a real jump that way.

[KDeline]

DO NOT have the car running when you jump the bike, to many amps. Just use battery power from your car, it will be plenty.

[Twisties]

Yum, fried canbus. Tastes like chicken.

[spdyjr]

The last symptom makes me makes the bad battery the most likely cause of your problem, too. It just reinforces 1bmwfan and Sailorlite's opinion.

 

It could have a shorted cell and the 1150's current is just being sucked into the 1200's battery. I've heard a similar sound when my battery went south in my F150.

[drswift]

Well, I'm still stumped. I jumped the battery on my '04rt to the full-charged battery on the '07 1200RT and although it turns over fine it won't fire. Then I tried jumping from my Tundra (engine off) and same results: Turns over but won't fire.

 

I pulled the cover off the Fuel Pressure Sensor and put a tester in the yellow lead in the blue connector under the cover. The power light comes on then off when I hit the starter button, but nothing when I first turn the key on. I'm assuming that with the FPS, any power is a sign that it's working and not the issue here.

 

Any other considerations?

[dirtrider]

Evening Dave

 

The fuel pump should come on during engine cranking. If it doesn’t stay on during engine cranking you MIGHT have a bad fuel pump controller but then again it might be perfectly good but the fueling computer isn’t commanding it to stay on.

 

Have you removed a battery cable for 2 minutes to clear the computers memory? If not do that FIRST.

 

Next move is to monitor the FPC (fuel pump controller) control circuit to see if it is being energized during engine cranking. If in doubt there jump the fuel pump directly to battery power as a test to see if will then start.

 

[drswift]

Next move is to monitor the FPC (fuel pump controller) control circuit to see if it is being energized during engine cranking. If in doubt there jump the fuel pump directly to battery power as a test to see if will then start.

 

In my last post I meant fuel pump controller. So I'm getting some juice, just not full time.

 

How do I jump the fuel pump?

[dirtrider]

 

Evening Dave

 

Don’t cut the wires or splice wires as the picture shows this diagram is just to show you where power and ground goes.

 

 

Pull the blue connector off the pump then make up jumpers with little alligator clips, use a little tape on the alligator clips to keep them from touching each other. Not pretty but will work if careful. I carry a special jumper made from an old FPF.

 

[cpallen]

Have you removed and cleaned the battery cables on the RT?

[drswift]

Have you removed and cleaned the battery cables on the RT?

Nope. Is was running perfectly two weeks ago beofre the battery died.

[drswift]

 

Pull the blue connector off the pump then make up jumpers with little alligator clips, use a little tape on the alligator clips to keep them from touching each other.

 

What about using Positaps?

[drswift]

There seems to be some uncertainty as to whether I should be able to hear the fuel pump when I first turn the key (before hitting the starter). Does anybody no for sure what the situation is for an '07 RT?

[Twisties]

There seems to be some uncertainty as to whether I should be able to hear the fuel pump when I first turn the key (before hitting the starter). Does anybody no for sure what the situation is for an '07 RT?

 

Dave,

 

I got a click, a very slight brief whine that may have been the fuel pump, or not, and then a faint ticking. All in all pretty quiet, and nothing clearly identifiable as the fuel pump.

 

Then I pushed the starter and couldn't hear anything but the motor.

[dirtrider]

 

Pull the blue connector off the pump then make up jumpers with little alligator clips, use a little tape on the alligator clips to keep them from touching each other.

 

What about using Positaps?

 

Evening Dave

 

First off you don’t want to jeopardize the wire integrity by poking holes in the wires with Positaps and secondly you don’t want to directly power the pump with the FPC still hooked up as you will backdrive power into that from the reverse side. Not sure if that will hurt it or not but it isn’t worth taking a chance of ruining a perfectly good FPC.

 

[99Roadster]

I believe there is a faint sound from the fuel pump but I can definitely hear the idle steppers cycle when turning on the ignition and most notable when turned off.

[drswift]

I'll try the jumper around the FPC and let y'all know. If it doesn't start I'll try pulling a fuel line of the injector to see if the pump is working.

[NewBlue]

If it was me, I would come up with a game plan.

You need to know what works and what doesn't.

 

1) Remove the battery and take it to an auto parts store. They will load test it, if it fails get a new battery. If it passes charge it and put it back in.

 

2) Turn the key on and wacth the self test sequence. It's listed in your owners manual. If that's OK move on, if not solve that.

 

3) Listen for the fuel pump to cycle for a few seconds when the key is turned on. It's quiet but noticeable. Open the fuel fill cap and hold your ear by it that should make it more noticeable.

 

4) If you can't hear the pump, pull the fpc and do a temp. bypass as noted by DR. You can use an amp meter in series on the bypass to check amp draw. I believe it to be 7amps.

 

5) If the pump runs when in bypass, hit the starer and see if it starts. If it does replace the fpc if it doesn't call your dealer.

 

Hold off on pulling fuel lines or piercing wires (or you will learn about green mold in the future)

 

You were given good advice by others on what and how to check the above, follow it and you will get to where you need to be.

 

[drswift]

Thanks, NewBlue.

[drswift]

More frustration!

 

I did a bypass jumper around the FPC. Didn't hear anything fron the tank. Bike turned over but wouldn't start. I switched my power source to the wires for the power accessory port for the left front fairing. It started to put-put, so I just kept cranking. Then it finally fired up, running rough at first. I let in run for about 5 minutes (just to enjoy it.) I turned off the engine, and listened to the tank and still heard a very soft "whirring" sound I assumed was the FPC.

 

So, I figured it was a bad FPC.

 

I disconnected my jumpers and hooked up all the original connections for the FPC. As a test I tried to start it again, and the bike fired right up!

 

Now I'm totally stumped. Can the FPC be intermittently bad or is it a "works or dead" situation?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Dave

 

That soft whirr you heard was the fuel pump still running due to being powered from the accessory outlet.

 

Yes, an FPC can be intermittent but it seems real strange it would fail just as your battery went dead then you re-charged it. (real suspect on the FPC failure condition)

 

Try starting it a few days in a row to see if maybe your problem was a confused fueling computer and not the FPC itself.

 

Now that you have it running you should probably re-set the TPS learn as I’m sure that is not correct due to all your fooling with the system.—To do that -- disconnect either battery cable for about 2 minutes, then re-connect the battery cable, then turn the key on (do not start engine), the fully open and close throttle twice, then start engine. That will re-set the TPS learn in the fueling computer.

 

[drswift]

Try starting it a few days in a row to see if maybe your problem was a confused fueling computer and not the FPC itself.

 

Just my play. I'm starting to think that all the jump starting and connecting/reconnecting the battery may have "confused" the computer.

 

I'll keep you posted!

[Don_Eilenberger]

No Dave,

 

It doesn't surprise me at all.

 

You've been flailing (attacking random parts of a system without following step by step processes..) You have this 4 page thread going here, and you have a 2-3 page one going on the MOA website. It seems as if whatever anyone tells you - you'll go do it partway then report back and immediately try some other suggestion. Classic flailing.

 

Sounds to me like you had flooded plugs/cylinders - caused by the weak battery.

 

Trying to start the bike with low battery voltage did allow it to turn over, did allow the fuel pump to run, did allow the injectors to inject, but probably didn't have enough spark to trigger it.

 

That cause the initial flooding. Repeated tries at starting it just made things worse. No where in the many posts did I see you pulling a plug to SEE if there was fuel getting into the cylinders or not. It's WAY easier then putzing around with the fuel pump controller because someone else once had that problem, and that fixed it.

 

If the plugs were wet - dry them off, leave them out overnight and then try again.

 

Wet plugs = fuel system probably working, questionable on ignition. Dry plugs (especially after multiple start tries) means the fuel system isn't working. Ignition could still be a problem, but solving the fuel system problem would be primary.

 

And to reset the TPS - you only have to twist it once fully, engine off/ignition on, or if you're riding and feel like fun - engine on. If you don't - no biggie, the ECU learns it within a few miles anyway.

 

BIG SUGGESTION - get a NEW BATTERY (I believe I suggested this in the MOA thread, and may have here.) Once a battery goes really dead - it's NEVER the same. It's junk. You indicated low final charge voltage and very low voltage when cranking. That's a sign the battery has passed on and gone to meet it's maker. It's a lump of useless lead. Go buy a new one.

 

Glad to hear it's working now. Finally. Might keep working with a decent battery in it (and PLEASE - put the battery you buy on an automatic charger OVERNIGHT before even putting it in the bike. You'll be rewarded by much longer battery life and better current capacity.)

[mig]

Dave:

My FCU was intermittent and finally went belly up. i would remove it and look at the underside PC board for burn marks discoloration. Mine was and when i opened it up it was fried. not sure how long it had been that way. I bought a new FCU and used the old one to make the jumper rig I now carry all the time. You can PM me and I can send you the link to the site for making the jumper.

Miguel

[drswift]

Thanks, Don. New battery arrives tomorrow. Duh - I should have checked for wet plugs. Anyway, it's been a fun experience (since I couldn't go riding anyway.)

[drswift]

Thanks, Mig. I'm not seeing any obvious signs on the bottom of the FPC. I'll be curious to see what happens after I get the new battery and try starting over several days.

[racer7]

Dave,

FPCs can and often do fail intermittently before dying completely (mine did- got a bunch of starts out of it while it was dying). And I agree with Don's comment about flailing.

Now that you've got the bike running and after you change the battery, you will find out for sure if it is an fpc issue- they never permanently "repair" themselves if dying and will quit again eventually.

A ride to the dealer (or a friend with a GS-911) should be done to read but more importantly CLEAR all stored codes. Next time your bike fails to start with a known good battery, reading what new codes are there (or not) will allow much faster troubleshooting than this time.

If you bike runs OK with a new battery and keeps starting then you somehow missed the sound of the fuel pump on initial keying. Listen for it before your bike starts normally so you know what to listen for next time. It is the sound you heard after shutting the bike off!

Dirtrider has it exactly right- what you heard was the fuel pump running on your bypass because the outlet stays live (sometimes for up to 30 min but more typically about 30 seconds) after the bike is shut off. And you should do the learn/reset like he says.

That rough start is atypical and sounds very much like you had a flooded motor but whether that is the only issue is hard to tell from your thread.

 

[Don_Eilenberger]

Thanks, Don. New battery arrives tomorrow. Duh - I should have checked for wet plugs. Anyway, it's been a fun experience (since I couldn't go riding anyway.)

 

Dave, it's the Internet Syndrome..

 

Instead of doing the simple diagnostics tests we would if we didn't have access to a large base of knowledge, we tend (and I'm as guilty as anyone.. so do as I say.. not as I do..) to get distracted by the experiences of others, and skip the basics.

 

Always worth doing the basics..

 

For ignition to happen you need:

 

1 - Intake air (source of oxygen)

2 - Gas (source of fuel)

3 - Fire (source of ignition)

4 - Exhaust (place for the results to go..)

 

If any of these are missing it ain't gonna run. Usually it's #2 or #3, in your case I think #3.. low battery voltage = poor spark = wet plugs = no fire.

 

Good luck with it and let us know how it works out!

 

[NewBlue]

Hind-sight is 20/20

Accurate information is much better when the vision is blurred.

 

[Don_Eilenberger]

That's true.. if you go back about 20 threads, you'll see I suggested replacing the battery as step #1.. it was a known failure (total discharge). Perhaps I should have suggested a plug read about that time.

[NewBlue]

Things really went south at post #10

There is still confusion as to why no pump with bypass until he used the acc. outlet. I would think the fpc controls the pump through the ground side, maybe something there, no idea.

I imagine it finally started cuz caution was thrown to the wind and the starter button was held longer then any other attempt (flooded as you suggest) I guess, sort of, maybe.

 

Yes numerous posts recommended to start with the battery, next time, maybe!!!

[Don_Eilenberger]

Things really went south at post #10

There is still confusion as to why no pump with bypass until he used the acc. outlet. I would think the fpc controls the pump through the ground side, maybe something there, no idea.

Probably because the ZFE may turn the power off to the fuel pump if the voltage drops below a certain threshold.. since a pump run on too low voltage will draw LOTS more current.. the accessory outlet probably doesn't have that restriction.

I imagine it finally started cuz caution was thrown to the wind and the starter button was held longer then any other attempt (flooded as you suggest) I guess, sort of, maybe.

 

Yes numerous posts recommended to start with the battery, next time, maybe!!!

Yes - and holding the button down (with the throttle fully open - max air) is usually the way to get a flooded engine started.

[drswift]

All great comments. This is how I learn stuff for the next time!

[dirtrider]

Unfortunately we have no way to know for sure what went on here. With him not checking the power to the FPC as he used that power feed for initial jumper power to the pump we just don’t know if it was shut down by the PCM or was actually powering the pump but the pump was stuck from sitting.

 

The thing that has me concerned is he couldn’t EVER hear the pump run at key-on even at 12.4 volts or when jumping from the other bike or even his car. He also couldn’t verify the pump would keep running while cranking even when jumpered from another bike.

 

I’m not convinced this was just a low battery issue through the whole process. Might have been a low battery that started it all in motion but there was definitely something else going on there. Rather poor follow through on the testing sure didn’t help the situation.