R1150RT rear wheel stuck

[BIWOZ]

Hi there

 

 

Didn't think I'd need help so soon

 

Trying to remove the rear wheel to take it in to get new tyre fitted. (Present tyre unrideable)

 

Undid and lifted brake calipers off the disc body.

 

Undid four wheel bolts on muffler side and removed them.

 

Handbook says "Lift wheel off". Yeah, right.

 

Problem: It won't move. I don't know if I've missed something or it's "welded" itself on there. I'm reluctant to use force without knowing what I'm doing.

 

I'm assuming it's a straight pull towards the muffler??

 

Can anyone assist me please?

 

Thanks

 

Bruce

 

PS: 2003 R1150RT

[dan cata]

Hi,

 

If your wheel has not been moved in a while, it's going to be rusty, where it meets the FD. Just apply more pressure on the side of it, and if that does not work try hitting it gently with your foot. It will come off in the end.

 

And when you do get it off, clean the rust and add some light coating of grease. I have some molibdenum disulphite (MoS2) grease that I use on almost anything on the bike, like threads on screws, bushings, splines, etc.

 

Dan.

[Selden]

If you haven't done so already, use a strap to cinch the front wheel and the centerstand. While this is always good advice when doing maintenance, it's especially so when applying unusual force to the rear wheel, as Dan suggests. A piece of wood between the swingarm and the tire may also give you some leverage. If all else fails, I suppose you could use a heat gun on the wheel hub.

[GordonB]

OP; keep in mind the wheel must move laterally a little bit to clear the hub, then pull back, this may be why it's not breaking free. Try rocking it top and bottom.

[Solo6]

Your rear wheel is like an alloy wheel on a car. A few taps with a fist against the right side of the tire should loosen it -- if not, try shooting in some WD-40, let it soak, and try again. If it's seriously stuck, a mallet will work, but that's the last resort.

[BIWOZ]

Thanks very much for the help; it's appreciated ... especially the tip about securing the front wheel to the centrestand!

 

I rechecked the four retaining wheel bolts and found they are orange at the ends with "rust".

 

I finally managed to contact a motorcycle mechanic friend who suggested that it's not uncommon and to use a length of wood and a rubber mallet to tap the tire (not the wheel) all the way round. I shall try that this afternoon after work.

 

Thanks again.

 

Bruce

[Fugu]

Don't grease things indiscriminately with molybdenum, especially wheel bolts.

 

Greasing the threads can have sometimes large effects on the the required torque values, and can lead to you over stretching bolts, as the lubrication alters torque readings.

 

Look it up.

 

otherwise, yeah, strap front tire to centerstand and whack back wheel.

 

is your shim in there? Should be a thin shim. I never had the wheel stick on my 04 RT, I wonder if that's the real reason for the shim?

 

 

[dan cata]

Don't grease things indiscriminately with molybdenum, especially wheel bolts.

 

Greasing the threads can have sometimes large effects on the the required torque values, and can lead to you over stretching bolts, as the lubrication alters torque readings.

 

Look it up.

 

otherwise, yeah, strap front tire to centerstand and whack back wheel.

 

is your shim in there? Should be a thin shim. I never had the wheel stick on my 04 RT, I wonder if that's the real reason for the shim?

 

 

I do not screw the 4 bolts using a torque wrench (and yes, I do have one )

 

Never had a problem with them, but I can easyly undo the bolts next time I have to remove the rear wheel.

 

I did once had a problem, when I did a tire change on the GS, the mechanic put too much greas on the bolts, it melt and started to wet the area around them... I thought I had a FD issue at first.

 

Dan.

[Fugu]

Torque wrench or by feel, same result. Unless you are looking at degrees of rotation to get proper tension you're off.

 

molybdenum is very slippery. Continuous overtightening of the bolts could have very bad results.

 

4 bolts hold the wheel on. You really want to mess with them?

 

Search here. Search the Internet. Heres a cut and paste of an old post of mine on the topic. The effect of lubing threads can be serious.

Paste:

bolt torque modification multiplier

 

Clean dry bolt 1.00

motor oil (20w) 0.80

molybdenum film (dry) 0.60

Never-Seize brand anti seize: 0.45

 

 

This is to say w/ a torque spec of 100 ft-lbs, if you use Never-Seize, you should set your wrench to 45 ft-lbs because the lubrication properties of the anti-seize allow the bolt to turn much more easily in the threads, and the bolt has the same tension at 45 ft-lbs as it had at 100 ft-lbs dry. If you used 100 ft-lbs with anti-seize you could over tension, overstretch or break the bolt.

 

 

 

This information comes from the Pocket Ref book by Thomas J. Glover - a handy little guide to all sorts of useful information. You can get it at that huge internet bookstore place for around $15. Good tables of info on fasteners. I have no affiliation.

 

 

 

 

[dan cata]

What you say makes sense.

 

What's to be done then to avoid rusty screws?

 

Dan.

[Fugu]

I just wire brush the bolts as needed when I have the wheel off already.

 

If you have a major problem with bolts rusting you could choose a product that doesn't lubricate as well as moly and won't really alter torque specs much. I was pretty shocked when I first learned how much impact some anti seize compounds could have.

 

 

[BIWOZ]

Well, I persuaded the wheel off with a rubber mallet on the rim of the tyre. Took a fair bit of effort too.

 

I am surprised at how much rust is evident ... but as I have nothing to judge against, I'm unsure whether this is normal or not.

 

Here's inside the final drive ... it's very rough in there.

 

 

 

And this is the wheel centering spigot ... (I've taken the shim out of the shot)

 

 

Thanks again everyone for your help ... I did notice the handbook is quite adamant about no lubricant, but I'll be doing a bit of brushing/cleaning before putting things back together.

 

Bruce

[Solo6]

What's to be done then to avoid rusty screws?

 

If this is a serious problem for you, put a little silicone sealant (RTV, for instance) on the flat of the final drive before you mount the wheel, then run a bead of it around the bolt heads. This will keep out all water.

[AndyS]

Hi Bruce, welcome to the forum.

Don't grease the threads of the bolts, do not lube the threads in the Final Drive.

While the wheel is off, clean the threads up. Screw the bolts in & out of the FD a few times to make sure they go in without binding.

The area of the FD that is rusty can be cleaned up. I then put a layer of Waxoyl (ACF50 would also help) into that pocket.

 

Clean and degrease the spacer disc. (that doesn't want to be lubed either).

 

On the wheel, where the corrosion is, that can be cleaned up with some low abrasive Scotchbrite.

 

When you put the wheel back on, don't forget that spacer.

DO torque the rear wheel up.

These wheels have been known to come loose! (I don't understand why as my old single nut single sided swing arem on the NTV650 and the VFR never caused problems and were not torqued to silly figures either).

 

Andy

[Fugu]

I'm having an interesting email chat with the folks who make Boeshield about this...

 

Will let you know if there's a result. Seems to me a product like theirs might prevent corrosion and wouldn't have any major effect on torque specs.

 

I sent and email and the guy who answered is their president. Seems interested in looking at the issue after initially saying he assumed it would be no problem.

[Fugu]

I'm having an interesting email chat with the folks who make Boeshield about this...

 

Will let you know if there's a result. Seems to me a product like theirs might prevent corrosion and wouldn't have any major effect on torque specs.

 

I sent an email and the guy who answered is their president. Seems interested in looking at the issue after initially saying he assumed it would be no problem. after a bit more back and forth he recognized what I wad talking about- he rides an R1200R.

 

He said he's going to do some checking. Might be interesting, although he said Boeshield doesn't have a way to test lubricity of their product.

 

He says he uses it himself but advocated erring on the side of caution for obvious reasons.

 

Oops posting from iPhone resulted in a double post. Sorry. This second one was supposed to add to the first.

[BIWOZ]

Thanks, Fugu. I was thinking about a scrape and brush clean, followed by painting with a phosphoric acid and tannin-based rust "converter", which has no lubricity at all and coverts iron oxide to the harder, non-reactive iron tannate.

 

I won't do anything with the bolts other than brush them clean.

 

I'll need to do some more research myself ...

[AndyS]

Hi Bruce, you don't have to go overboard on this stuff. All bikes suffer from it, Once you have given it a clean with scotchbrite and put some inhibiter on the parts it will be fine.

You just repeat it each time the wheel comes off.

 

Andy

[BIWOZ]

Hi Bruce, you don't have to go overboard on this stuff. All bikes suffer from it, Once you have given it a clean with scotchbrite and put some inhibiter on the parts it will be fine.

You just repeat it each time the wheel comes off.

 

Andy

 

Thank you. Having owned Yamahas, Hondas and Suzukis in the past, I was a wee tad concerned! You've given me back a bit of perspective.

 

Bruce

[Uggles]

Geday Bruce,

Bruce here from the other side of the island.

Welcome to the "show" and have a great time. PM or email me if you wish with any queries otherwise sit back, sit on, and join in.

Cheers,

[nrp]

I'm flabbergasted at the corrosion environment some of you live under. Be sure you have no grease or other lube on the faying (the face & the shim in this case) surfaces.

 

Confession - I do the unthinkable & grease the threads & under the bolt heads lightly, reducing the torque to about 3/4 nominal) to get a more consistent torque preload. Sorry - that's this retired mech engineer's experience and opinion.

[Mr. Frank]

I have a plug which fits in the center of the rear wheel which may keep some water out. It has a BMW roundel. A guy from Australia used to sell them.

[AndyS]

Verholen

Hornig

Wunderlich

[Selden]

have been known to come loose! (I don't understand why as my old single nut single sided swing arem on the NTV650 and the VFR never caused problems and were not torqued to silly figures either).

The Hawk GT (U.S. terminology) and VFR use a castle nut and a cotter pin to prevent the single nut from loosening.

[wheeliepup]

Seriously folks...we're talking about lug nuts! you are not going to hurt anything by keeping them lubed. For those "Ham Fisted" individuals, maybe you should leave the work to someone else. For everyone else, its OK to use the lug wrench that came in your bike's tool pouch!!

[Linz]

Having experienced my rear wheel attempt to abandon my bike coming down a mountain pass (with no prior warning whatever), forgive me if I keep my bolts dry and torque them according to the manual.

 

The back story:

 

I bought the bike used from a very reputable dealer with 12,000 Kilometers on the clock. New Bridgestone rubber all round. As a routine (because if was my third BMW) I check the 6 o'clock, 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock play on the rear wheel when I either wash the bike or check the tires. I never miss.

 

There was no sign that the lug nuts were loosening but, around 100Kms from home (6000K's after owning the bike) and going down a steep and long mountain it felt like I had a flat. When I could find a flat enough place to pull over I found that all four bolts had unwound and some were holding by a couple of threads.

 

I used the lug wrench to tighten and then ordered brand new lug nuts from the dealer that afternoon on the basis of, I didn't know if some idiot had overtightened them previously and stretched them.

 

New bolts, no lubricant, now torqued to 105Nm as per instructions. I also marked the top of the bolts with some of the wife's red nail polish so I could do a visual on long trips when filling up the tank. Call me obsessed if you like but it's never going to happen to me again if I have any say in it.

 

Cheers,

 

Linz

[Fugu]

Seriously folks...we're talking about lug nuts! you are not going to hurt anything by keeping them lubed. For those "Ham Fisted" individuals, maybe you should leave the work to someone else. For everyone else, its OK to use the lug wrench that came in your bike's tool pouch!!

 

If you don't understand the problems here, I'm sure it looks silly to you. Rather than being flippant, take a moment to learn something.

 

There are things you could put on the lug bolts to help if you have a corrosion problem. Boeshield may be one, but they have gone moot on this after telling me they use it on their own bikes but wouldn't go so far as to say anyone else should, liability reasons I'd suspect. They also cannot report a K factor or torque multiplier at this time.

 

Just pick a product that won't greatly alter the torque required to properly tension the fastener, whether you use a torque wrench or not. Pretty simple.

[BIWOZ]

All right ... last night was interesting but long (and, unfortunately, stinking hot in my garage -- don't think summer wants to let go!).

 

Anyway, got the new tyre mounted. Once home, I used a (soft) wire brush to clean the bolt threads, both sides the of the shim, the centring spigot and the inside hub of the final drive. To my relief, the corrosion looked worse than it actually was. A flat scraper made from the rear of an old hacksaw blade flipped off any remaining bits.

 

Blew it all down with an airhose, then used a round sanding sponge, just a couple of turns, to "polish". Washed it down with kerosene, blew it dry again. Very pleased to see no oil seepage whatsoever. Put some rust killer/inhibitor on a soft cloth and wiped round the inside of the final drive. Let it dry completely in front of a hot halogen worklight.

 

Lining up bolts and holes while supporting the wheel and tyre by myself was a pain (in more ways than one) but finally done. Everything went together tightly but smoothly and bolts went in with no protest. Five minutes later, rear brake was back on the disk.

 

Tonight after work, I'll go and see my bestest neighbour. (He has a torque wrench )

 

Thanks again to everyone who helped. My theory is that the previous owner used a pressure washer to clean the wheels and tyres. I've heard of them forcing water into places it's not wanted. My bestest neighbour (see above ) ran the water stream from his petrol-powered pressure washer over his hand while washing his 4WD ... it sliced his hand open like a scalpel -- three internal and four external stitches.

 

Bruce

[rich t]

I've had the stuck wheel issue on my car. The corrosion is consistent to the environment you live and will hit you the next time you take off your rim. I've been using a thin layer of anti seize on the contact areas to mitigate this. The anti seize does not melt and slide off, so you don't have to worry about it gettin out on to your rim.

Yes, adding anti seize to your lug bolts will marginally change your torque settings, but looking at your bolt holes, I can see that your torque process will be off due to rusty bolt holes. I would put juat a dab of anti seize on the bolts to insure that they will be removeable.

[AndyS]

Rich, why bother. Just clean the holes & bolts, screw the bolts in without the wheel fitted to make sure they screw in fully, then remove them, fit the wheel and screw them back in to factory spec.

Why 'screw' around with all the effort a manufacturer goes to to define the torque of these particular items for someone to come along and say add anti-sieze?

I would be very suprised if anyone has had the bolts rusted solid in place.

Rather the bolts be solid than to be anti-seized and come loose.

[rich t]

Fair enough statement AndyS. My experience with a twisted off lug bolts was with a Toyota Corolla (yes multiple because of rusted lug nuts). My experience with a stuck wheel was a Volkswagen Jetta. So my comments as applied to the RT rear heel situation is anecdotal, but anti seize would have prevented both cases above, and to your point, possiblye created a torque issue. I didn't hear any urge to use a thread chaser on those bolt holes, thus my concern that they would not likely be clean enough to provide accurate torque.

I've never had bolts using anti seize come loose, but someone else may have; just thought I'd chime in on the option.

I did, however, twist off two bolts on my cylinder guards. Bolts, which would have been treated with anti-seize, would have been removable.

I apologize if I am sparking a torque spec war, that's not my intent. I really just wanted to offer an alternative to grease.

[nrp]

If you do use antisieze (and I do), use it sparingly only on the threads and under the bolt heads. Try to keep any faying surfaces dry. You actually want a little bit of "welding" to happen there.

 

Anybody who thinks a cotter key will keep a large nut from loosening in fatigue has been drinking the wrong kool aid. Even aircraft engines don't use cotter keys or safety wire on rod bolts anymore if they were designed in the last 60 years.

 

Bolts that are torqued and with reasonable preload won't come loose. If the joint loads are such that the surfaces are flexing or working the bolt, there will either be a fatigue failure in the threads or loosening as things work.