Running Red Lights

[Pat Buzzard]

We've all been there before, you pull up to the light and wait forever in hopes that it will eventualy turn green. Kansas has passed legislation allowing us to legally run a red light IF our bike fails to trigger the sensor.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/23/kansas-house-approves-allowing-bikers-run-red-lights/?test=latestnews

 

 

[szurszewski]

To me, this seems like one of those laws we don't really need, but I guess legislators need something to do.

 

I mean, I agree that it comes up (lights not acknowledging my existence when riding {either a motorcycle or bicycle}), but I find it pretty easy to either avoid the intersections I know won't "see" me when there isn't likely to be a car to trigger the light, and, when I happen upon them by chance (or forget that I'm not in a car, etc.), I don't have any compunctions about running the red after the first cycle. I've only been doing that for twenty years of regular commuting on both types of two wheeled vehicles, but so far it's never been a problem (of course now I'll probably get a ticket for it tomorrow).

 

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Been that way in Florida for a long time, lots of other states as well. If I'm unsure, I just make a right then hang a U-turn.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

We've all been there before, you pull up to the light and wait forever in hopes that it will eventualy turn green. Kansas has passed legislation allowing us to legally run a red light IF our bike fails to trigger the sensor.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/23/kansas-house-approves-allowing-bikers-run-red-lights/?test=latestnews

 

I like the fact that the Kansas law allows a rider to proceed after a "reasonable length of time" although it apparently doesn't state who makes that final determination of what is reasonable. North Carolina law says we need to wait three minutes but if I know that my bike never trips a particular light and if there is no cross-traffic coming and no vehicles coming up behind me to trip the light my watch starts running very, very fast.

[JayW]

...Kansas has passed legislation allowing us to legally run a red light IF our bike fails to trigger the sensor.

 

TN had such a law in place which I really appreciated and regularly used to my advantage. I now live in NC and do not know if I am legally able to do so, but I occasionally run lights anyway. It is pointless for me to sit for endless minutes waiting for a light to change when there is no traffic putting me at risk. So far, I am getting away with it, but I don't know the local LEOs opinion about it.

 

Jay

[upflying]

It's unofficially that way in Ca. I don't bother bikes who treat a red light like a stop sign if the light doesn't change.

 

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Jay,

You're probably safe continuing what you've been doing.

 

The General Assembly of North Carolina enacts:

SECTION 1. G.S. 20-158 is amended by adding a new subsection to read: "§ 20-158. Vehicle control signs and signals.

 

(e) Defense. – It shall be a defense to a violation of sub-subdivision (b)(2)a. of this section if the operator of a motorcycle, as defined in G.S. 20-4.01(27)d., shows all of the following:

 

(1) The operator brought the motorcycle to a complete stop at the intersection or stop bar where a steady red light was being emitted in the direction of the operator.

(2) The intersection is controlled by a vehicle actuated traffic signal using an inductive loop to activate the traffic signal.

(3) No other vehicle that was entitled to have the right-of-way under applicable law was sitting at, traveling through, or approaching the intersection.

(4) No pedestrians were attempting to cross at or near the intersection.

(5) The motorcycle operator who received the citation waited a minimum of three minutes at the intersection or stop bar where the steady red light was being emitted in the direction of the operator before entering the intersection."

 

SECTION 2. This act becomes effective December 1, 2007, and applies to offenses committed on or after that date.

 

In the General Assembly read three times and ratified this the 12th day of July, 2007.

[elkroeger]

Without getting into whatever the local rules are, I've always treated an un-triggered light as a malfunctioning light, and thus, as a stop sign. I proceed when reasonable. The only thing I have to do is wait for it to cycle twice. Getting a ticket with this procedure seems doubtful to me. ymmv

[ltljohn]

Without getting into whatever the local rules are, I've always treated an un-triggered light as a malfunctioning light, and thus, as a stop sign. I proceed when reasonable. The only thing I have to do is wait for it to cycle twice. Getting a ticket with this procedure seems doubtful to me. ymmv

 

+1

[JayW]

Jay,

You're probably safe continuing what you've been doing...

 

Thank you George. It's always good to know the "official" legal position on issues like this.

 

Jay

[Selden]

Usually (but not always), I find that (traffic permitting) if I swerve from one side of my lane to the other, so that the bike travels diagonally across the sensor wires, it triggers the sensor circuit. Failing that, I try kicking the centerstand down a few times with my heel, so that it touches the pavement in the area of the sensor strip. Failing that, if there is a pedestrian crossing button, I dismount, dash over to the light pole and punch the button, then run back and get back on the light. If all these fail, and nobody is likely to come up behind me to trip the circuit, then I go through the light.

[JayW]

...if I swerve from one side of my lane to the other,...Failing that, I try kicking the centerstand down...Failing that,...I dismount, dash over to the light pole and punch the button, then run back...If all these fail...

 

...then by that point the signal bulb has usually burned out and therefore is no longer red.

 

Jay

[maxtell]

Fasten a good sized magnet on the bottom of your frame. Problem solved.

[upflying]

Fasten a good sized magnet on the bottom of your frame. Problem solved.

This?

http://www.helmetheadcycle.com/product/3696/green-light-trigger-hp

Another link suggested using epoxy to stick rare earth magnets to the bottom of your riding boots.

If it doesn't work, at least you could take up tap dancing.

[James Clark]

It's unofficially that way in Ca. I don't bother bikes who treat a red light like a stop sign if the light doesn't change.

 

If everyone shared that attitude, the bill would never have been introduced in the first place.

[Paul Mihalka]

Another possible problem: Sensors high up badly aimed. I don't know whether they sense movement or heat, or what. One traffic light I often pass, for locals MD Carroll county Liberty road rt. 26 vs. Green Valley road rt. 75 in Libertytown.

Rt. 26 has lots of traffic, rt. 75 little. White stop lines painted far from the corner, narrow roads with possible truck traffic. "No turn on red" sign. At one time I was stopped on rt. 75 for over 3 minutes as it is between houses. I got fed up and started crawling forward on the edge of the road with intentions of making a careful right turn. The moment I was AHEAD of the white stop line the signal changed. Since that I stop ahead of the white line and always get a change.

[maxtell]

Traffic light sensors are located in the saw cuts in the road you see at the intersections. The lights are also on timers that are supposedly set for differing traffic patterns at different times of the day. The timer is the big metal box hanging off a pole at the intersection. 3 minutes is not unusual at some intersections with heavy traffic although it seems like an hour sometimes. If you are too far forward, too far back or off to the side the light doesn't know you're there. Some bikes don't have enough steel in them to trip sensors that are set heavy.They can be adjusted to a point but won't be until the complaints come in.

[Paul Mihalka]

Many traffic lights around here don't use the grid in the pavement but use some kind of sensor mounted high in the center of the crossing, one each pointing at each entrance of the crossing.

 

Visual Sensors

 

Inductive loop sensors often fail due to crushing forces beneath the pavement causing the loop wires to break. As one can imagine, this can produce a maintenance nightmare. This is the main reason why, over the last decade or so, inductive loop-based sensors are being replaced or passed over in favor of visual systems. These rely on cameras mounted on traffic light poles and detect presence by the use of image recognition software. The are looking for a large enough change in the image to indicate that a vehicle is present. These are becoming very common, although by no means universal, and can be spotted at many major intersections.

 

 

[upflying]

Visual sensors on signals is Opticom. It changes the light to green when an emergency vehicle approaches the intersection.

Some transit buses also have a Opticom emitter.

http://www.tcmfd.com/stuff/opticom.html

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

I discovered last year that my Ducati would not trip a signal nearby. I emailed Cal Trans. Wrote in the information I wanted to convey. Two days later I got a response. I followed up with an email to the local Cal Trans supervisor. We met at the signal and he messed with the sensitivity to pick up the light weight bike as well as not making errors with other vehicles not turning left. All is well.

[Fubar]

We've all been there before, you pull up to the light and wait forever in hopes that it will eventualy turn green.

I once sat on US27 in Indiana for three complete cycles of a light in the wee hours. I even put my sidestand down. When I finally decided to run it, a cop showed up. I flashed hi-beams to get his attention, pointed at the light, held up three fingers, put it in gear and waved as I took off.

Fortunately, I now understand how loop detectors work and have no problems anymore. I just stop over it and go on green.

Nice to see the law of man catching up with the law of the physical world.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

I discovered last year that my Ducati would not trip a signal nearby. I emailed Cal Trans. Wrote in the information I wanted to convey. Two days later I got a response. I followed up with an email to the local Cal Trans supervisor. We met at the signal and he messed with the sensitivity to pick up the light weight bike as well as not making errors with other vehicles not turning left. All is well.

Geez, a public servant who really was there to help you. I hope you wrote someone in authority to commend this supervisor for taking the time to solve a problem some would readily dismiss as insignificant because it only affected a small percentage of vehicles.

[RT Russ]

There are still many if not mostly inductive loop based systems in Ca Bay Area. Being an electrical type, knowing that you need a metal mass to alter the inductive reactance of the circuit to make the system change I have started putting the bike right over the left side of the loop, never in the center of the square pattern. This has worked fairly well for months. Leaving our office parking lot, we have two lanes with a traffic signal for left turn onto the roadway. I have not been able to trigger the system in the left lane. In the right lane it's about 70% that I can tripper it, and as someone else had stated, I have to be well beyond the white "limit line" most of the time.

[MotorinLA]

I discovered last year that my Ducati would not trip a signal nearby. I emailed Cal Trans. Wrote in the information I wanted to convey. Two days later I got a response. I followed up with an email to the local Cal Trans supervisor. We met at the signal and he messed with the sensitivity to pick up the light weight bike as well as not making errors with other vehicles not turning left. All is well.

 

Our city traffic engineers told us that the sensitivity of the induction coils is supposed to be set to trigger for something as light/magnetic as a bicycle. Clearly there are many coils around our nation that are not calibrated properly. Having flashing red and blue lights help when encountering this problem .

 

I try to empathize with motorcycle riders that encounter this problem, just be careful of not becoming too impatient. I've observed riders barely stopping before running the red light. When stopped they usually state that they know the signal does not actuate for a motorcycle and therefore ran the red. Generally give these guys a ticket and advise them to wait for at least one full cycle before running the red. Often there will be a car that will enter the lane right after the red light violation was committed, thus there was no need to run the red light.

 

Use it, don't abuse it.

[DiverRay]

I make a left turn into work every day. If I'm the only vehicle, the light WILL NOT change. If one of my "fellow employees" stops 15' behind me, the light WILL NOT CHANGE. I KNOW about pickup coils, and try to land on them.

I end up running the light at LEAST once a week, as I get in early. I usually wait for a cycle, and go once the on-coming traffic is clear. This is in San Jose, CA, so not much worry about the CHP, who DO know.

[4wheeldog]

I make a left turn into work every day. If I'm the only vehicle, the light WILL NOT change. If one of my "fellow employees" stops 15' behind me, the light WILL NOT CHANGE. I KNOW about pickup coils, and try to land on them.

I end up running the light at LEAST once a week, as I get in early. I usually wait for a cycle, and go once the on-coming traffic is clear. This is in San Jose, CA, so not much worry about the CHP, who DO know.

 

If you report it, and document that you did so, you will have a reasonable defense if you ever get tagged. Just sayin'.

[ryan_a1982]

I second the magnet idea. The previous owner of my bike attached a rare-earth magnet to the bottom of my front fork. I haven't had a problem at any lights yet, even at lights I know my bicycle and my Honda magna and XR do not trigger. It must work....

[tallman]

I make a left turn into work every day. If I'm the only vehicle, the light WILL NOT change. If one of my "fellow employees" stops 15' behind me, the light WILL NOT CHANGE. I KNOW about pickup coils, and try to land on them.

I end up running the light at LEAST once a week, as I get in early. I usually wait for a cycle, and go once the on-coming traffic is clear. This is in San Jose, CA, so not much worry about the CHP, who DO know.

 

If you report it, and document that you did so, you will have a reasonable defense if you ever get tagged. Just sayin'.

 

You may even be able to get them to come out and reset it so it will pick up the bike.

[4wheeldog]

If you report it, and document that you did so, you will have a reasonable defense if you ever get tagged. Just sayin'.

 

You may even be able to get them to come out and reset it so it will pick up the bike.

 

Nice thought, but he is in CA, and it would cost a few bucks to re-calibrate.....There is no money for that in CA.

[Bullett]

This thread caused me to send an email to our city asking them to make adjustments to a traffic signal near our house. I received a phone call from the engineer this morning. He told me that they don't use the inductive loop system here, but have a camera mounted on the signal to detect a vehicle at the signal. He said it was probably not set right to pick up our vehicles.

 

We usually pull into the intersection near the edge of the circular pavement cuts. It may be that we need to be closer to the center of the lane. Anyway, he was very nice and said he would go out and adjust the camera this afternoon. He told me if the light still would not trigger for us to give him a call and gave me his cell phone number.

 

 

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Nice responsive service!

[11101110]

I remember a part of the US code or USDOT regulation (which have the force of law) requiring all sensor activated signal lights to detect a bicycle. Any light not able to detect a bicycle is malfunctioning and there for cannot be considered a legal intersection control device or something to that effect. The article I read the made me think that there is no reason for a state to have to pass a lay to exempt bicycles of motorcycles from running a red light. There have been recent attempt(s) in VA to get a law like this on the books.

[MarkyP]

For all my Land of Lincoln flatlanders.

 

http://www.bnd.com/2011/04/01/1653989/illinois-house-oks-bill-allowing.html

[4wheeldog]

I remember a part of the US code or USDOT regulation (which have the force of law) requiring all sensor activated signal lights to detect a bicycle. Any light not able to detect a bicycle is malfunctioning and there for cannot be considered a legal intersection control device or something to that effect. The article I read the made me think that there is no reason for a state to have to pass a lay to exempt bicycles of motorcycles from running a red light. There have been recent attempt(s) in VA to get a law like this on the books.

 

The problem with depending on this approach is, you still get the ticket, and are at the mercy of the judge. Most judges resent being told what the law is. And this is after you are put through going to court. Having state law on your side is much better than trying to get a local court recognize a federal regulation. Just sayin'.

Remember, to get the ticket, the LEO has to be recalcitrant enough to give you the ticker in spite of the light failing to respond. Best course is to report any local light that fails to trigger, keep your documentation, mention it to the cop, and bring it to court. Just sayin'.

[Kathy R]

Without getting into whatever the local rules are, I've always treated an un-triggered light as a malfunctioning light, and thus, as a stop sign. I proceed when reasonable. The only thing I have to do is wait for it to cycle twice. Getting a ticket with this procedure seems doubtful to me. ymmv

 

+1

[Fubar]

I finally researched this for FL. (www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/)

 

316.1235 (edited for brevity)

The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection in which the traffic lights are inoperative shall stop in the manner indicated in s. 316.123(2) for approaching a stop intersection. In the event that only some of the traffic lights within an intersection are inoperative, the driver of a vehicle approaching an inoperative light shall stop in the above-prescribed manner.

316.123(2) (also edited)

Every driver approaching a stop intersection shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic. After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle which has entered the intersection from another highway or which is approaching so closely on said highway as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection.

 

Seems consistent with previous remarks. Stop, assess functionality, treat as malfunctioning, go when clear.

[tallman]

Fubar,

Not sure but I think somewhere buried in the statutes is a distinction between inoperative and malfunctioning.

Could be a misremembering on my part but if I find more I'll post it.

[MotorinLA]

Fubar,

Not sure but I think somewhere buried in the statutes is a distinction between inoperative and malfunctioning.

Could be a misremembering on my part but if I find more I'll post it.

 

California has a section that sounds very similar, however, it would not apply to the situations we are discussing here, rather it applies to intersections that have a signal system, but the system is inoperative, i.e. blacked out. This is to control traffic in case of a signal system shutdown, not problems caused by loop miscalibration.

[MarkyP]

Same in Illinois. Our safety classes here have taught forever that you are allowed to pass through lights when they malfunction, but that specific provision for system failure wasn't built in the statute.

[Fubar]

Fubar,

Not sure but I think somewhere buried in the statutes is a distinction between inoperative and malfunctioning.

Could be a misremembering on my part but if I find more I'll post it.

Tim, The sections I quoted, even edited down, state inoperability explicitly. I reread the entire section 316 and found nothing about malfunctioning devices or inability to be recognized on bikes by the loop detectors.

I would have to assume, wth all the risks inherent in doing so, that inoperability and malfunction are interchangeable under FL statutes. At least it would be worth a shot in court.

That said, I just stop over the loop and go on green. No problems whatsoever.

 

[motorman587]

Fubar,

Not sure but I think somewhere buried in the statutes is a distinction between inoperative and malfunctioning.

Could be a misremembering on my part but if I find more I'll post it.

Tim, The sections I quoted, even edited down, state inoperability explicitly. I reread the entire section 316 and found nothing about malfunctioning devices or inability to be recognized on bikes by the loop detectors.

I would have to assume, wth all the risks inherent in doing so, that inoperability and malfunction are interchangeable under FL statutes. At least it would be worth a shot in court.

That said, I just stop over the loop and go on green. No problems whatsoever.

Couple of a years ago I stopped and wrote a lady for running a red light. She was stopped at a light, but over the stop bar, and would not trigger the light. Instead of backing up, no traffic, she ran the left red arrow. She was not on a motorcycle, but in a large pick up truck. The point is that she took it to court, and the judge threw it out. Her excuse was that she didn't know what to do. She played dumb and won. So it is up to the judge/hearing officer. That is why I love my in car camera...............

[motorman587]

I finally researched this for FL. (www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/)

 

316.1235 (edited for brevity)

The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection in which the traffic lights are inoperative shall stop in the manner indicated in s. 316.123(2) for approaching a stop intersection. In the event that only some of the traffic lights within an intersection are inoperative, the driver of a vehicle approaching an inoperative light shall stop in the above-prescribed manner.

316.123(2) (also edited)

Every driver approaching a stop intersection shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic. After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle which has entered the intersection from another highway or which is approaching so closely on said highway as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection.

 

Seems consistent with previous remarks. Stop, assess functionality, treat as malfunctioning, go when clear.

 

Also the statement "vehicles approaching" would get you. I believe the post is about signals that do not change because they do not detect a motorcycle.

[tallman]

John,

Tram and the truck route, going west, the left go straight lane has no detection for a motorcycle.

The right go straight does.

First time I recall a renovated intersection that had a lane w/no detection loop in it.

If you pull up in the right lane you can trip the signal.

If in the left lane, forget it until a car comes along.

Seems a strange choice by the engineers.

[motorman587]

John,

Tram and the truck route, going west, the left go straight lane has no detection for a motorcycle.

The right go straight does.

First time I recall a renovated intersection that had a lane w/no detection loop in it.

If you pull up in the right lane you can trip the signal.

If in the left lane, forget it until a car comes along.

Seems a strange choice by the engineers.

 

Maybe Blue Print 2000 ran out of money. lol

[motorman587]

Why would you need another law?? Would not common sense come in?? If I saw a motorcyclist come to a light and sat there for some time or the light ran through some cycles and you did not get a green arrow. You explain that you were there for a while. I would advice that a right turn with a u turn would be safer, and have a nice day............

[tallman]

John,

I understand that, but, picture same intersection (Tram & CC truckroute).

To do so I would have to cross over numerous other lanes to get in a lane where I could make a legal right turn.

If I had already pulled up in the left turn lane, or the left go straight lane I would most likely have to cross the white stop line to get over to the right.

So I'd technically break a law to do this.

Again, understand the concept, but it could produce other issues including who is at fault if an accident happened while you crossed the lanes.

[motorman587]

Tim,

Technically Tim you are tall and ugly. You are subject to road side strip search......

 

Sure, I would get you more for failing to maintain a single lane than running the light.

 

I think it would be more safer and easier to navigate over 3 lanes to make a right turn then over 6 lanes of traffic. Not only would have to look left and right, plus eastbound and left turn traffic. If you made the right turn, you would only have to check your 6 and then to your left.

 

I guess they put the detector in the right lane because aren't you suppose to be in the right lane first. "Slower traffic keep right"?

 

 

Shoot me an e-mail and I will sent it to the city traffic engineer guy. Lets see what he says...

[motorman587]

My email address is johnpretti@comcast.net

 

[tallman]

10-4

I've been stopped but they were too repulsed once the helmet came off to carry out the search.

 

That right lane then becomes a merge once you cross the intersection and you have to move to the left lane.

Poor design.

Best wishes.