RT66Rider Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 A small patch of black ice can take you down in an instant. as this rider looses his Victory up on Mt Lemmon. Fortunately he was not was injured, but his helmet-cam gives a very good view of what happened. Link to comment
upflying Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I always thought of black ice as something invisible and blended in with the roadway. Like dew settling on the roadway at night and then freezing. In this case, the moisture running across the road was clearly visible before the accident. Speed too fast for conditions unfortunately. Link to comment
kobukan Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 A small patch of black ice can take you down in an instant. I ride year round and we get plenty of black ice around here and that wasn't even close to what I would call black ice. I wouldn't consider that a "small patch" either. Black ice can be difficult to detect as it may appear as just wet/damp road. That was a big patch of ice that was clearly visible and the rider rode over it like it was nothing - no surprise he didn't make it across. It should also have been no surprise that it was there given everything else I saw on the road leading up to that point. Very careless IMO. Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yep, ice is nasty. That ice was visible. If I see ice (I try to avoid it) and the road is more or less straight, I pull in the clutch, no brakes, and keep it rolling straight. Over the years it happened some times, didn't go down. Too bad that ride ended that way. It was a beautiful day on a beautiful road. The guy sure wasn't dressed for riding... Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The guy sure wasn't dressed for riding... I guess I must be a bigger wuss than I thought... Snow on the ground, I'm at least wearing full fingered gloves! Knock wood, but I've not ever had that problem with ice on the roads, but Paul's advice on clutch in and coast has saved me on many a slippery bridge grate and a couple of fuel spills I've had to cross. Link to comment
Glenn Reed Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The guy sure wasn't dressed for riding... But the loafers were a nice touch! Link to comment
Huzband Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Kind of ironic that he was riding a Vision. Link to comment
SageRider Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 When he was picking the bike up, I was wondering if he was going to put the kick stand down and make sure it was in gear. Glad to see he at least remembered the kickstand... Terrible thing to dump as bike, then dump it again when picking it up... Link to comment
g_frey Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Black ice, in Montana anyway, is near invisible especially on blacktop roads. The ice in the video was plainly visible??? why he road across it I don't understand. I have ridden across ice patches and gotten away with it but they were much smaller than this one???? Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I know ice, and that is not black ice......That is glare ice. Totally predictable. I would have lost body parts from frostbite before the crash, dressed as he was. Link to comment
Penforhire Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Agreed. Black ice is near impossible to deal with using four wheels! Link to comment
Green RT Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That was a big patch of ice that was clearly visible and the rider rode over it like it was nothing - no surprise he didn't make it across My guess is that he thought it was wet. Link to comment
ThomasJ Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The guy sure wasn't dressed for riding... But the loafers were a nice touch! +1 Link to comment
Michaelr11 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Did that! about 10 or 11 years ago. That's a deceptive and very bad combination that we all should be aware of. Snow on the side areas, sunny day, causes the off-road snow to melt and run down slope onto a roadbed that is still below freezing temps. The water freezes and additional runoff coats the top of the ice with a layer of water. It looks like just a wet spot but there's very slick ice below. Near freeze temperatures, shade on the road and sun on a snow covered roadside is a very dangerous combination. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Did that! about 10 or 11 years ago. That's a deceptive and very bad combination that we all should be aware of. Snow on the side areas, sunny day, causes the off-road snow to melt and run down slope onto a roadbed that is still below freezing temps. The water freezes and additional runoff coats the top of the ice with a layer of water. It looks like just a wet spot but there's very slick ice below. Near freeze temperatures, shade on the road and sun on a snow covered roadside is a very dangerous combination. The very worst combination is when the air temp is just above freezing, and the ground is below freezing. Then the ice can have a thin layer of lubricating wetness on top. Dogs can have trouble standing on this combination. With only 2 legs (Or wheels), it is pretty much game over. The colder it gets below this combination, the more traction is available. Rough ice is treacherous, but it is possible to get across. Link to comment
Quinn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 How should he have handled this? Other than not riding at all. He wasn't going too fast, he was going in a straight line. Just how should you handle a patch of ice? --- Link to comment
Danny S Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That guy was doing everything wrong. He wasn't entering the corners or breaking properly. I can't believe he wasn't wearing crash gear. It was obviously cold outside so it wasn't because the gear was too hot to wear. He had to know there was going to be some ice somewhere. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 How should he have handled this? Other than not riding at all. He wasn't going too fast, he was going in a straight line. Just how should you handle a patch of ice? --- Evening Quinn I really can’t say how HE should have handled that situation but can tell you how I handle similar conditions. First is being aware that those conditions could & DO pop up in cold weather with frozen ground. Living and riding up here in the north I usually encounter similar conditions a few times a year. If you expect it to happen there is no startling surprise when it does. The number one rule I use is; DON’T change anything, don’t ever try to alter the riding line, no brakes, no tightening up on the bars. In fact I go as loose as possible on the bars, try to quickly get some weight on my feet, pull the clutch in as quickly as possible (to remove ANY engine drive train drag on the rear wheel-- this is a real BIGGIE), and continue the same travel path even if that points me somewhere I really don’t want to go. You want to go down very quickly just try to change your travel path even a little when on ice. I still do a little ice racing (mainly ice playing anymore) but in my youth did a lot of ice racing so that helps take the pucker factor out of slippery encounters. Link to comment
Penforhire Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Quinn, I couldn't tell for certain that he didn't partly chop the throttle on top of the ice, for example. My limited snow and ice riding reinforced the idea of being 100% smooth, as little control input as possible. When I ride over a patch like that I lock my throttle position (my wrist rotation, not cruise control, lol). Link to comment
upflying Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Just how should you handle a patch of ice? You need to ride over it in that fine control area of neither accelerating nor decelerating and straight up as possible. Since he was going uphill, looks like he had the throttle open..rear wheel immediately looses traction and you go down. I drove up that road last Thanksgiving. It's a one way road to a 10,000' mountain above Tucson. Basically a camping, resort, ski area road depending on season. Little to no traffic, breathtaking views of the desert below. Link to comment
AviP Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Firstly, that definitely not black ice. It's ice that frozen from overnight melting of the snowbank above the road. Black ice is actually transparent and not black. Being transparent, it transmits the color of the blacktop easily and hence the name. Black ice will be more frequent on the road less traveled and in shadows. A road without black ice today might be coated with it tomorrow. Secondly, the best way to have traversed that patch was to coast off the gas without braking in a straight attitude, not as he did turning slightly left. This accident was probably unavoidable because there is a shadow just after the ice patch and as the rider approaches, the distinction between shadow and ice becomes apparent but probably too late to make a decision. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 --- Secondly, the best way to have traversed that patch was to coast off the gas without braking in a straight attitude, not as he did turning slightly left. This accident was probably unavoidable because there is a shadow just after the ice patch and as the rider approaches, the distinction between shadow and ice becomes apparent but probably too late to make a decision. Evening Avi Unfortunately “coasting off the gas” IS braking (it’s called engine braking) so with a manual transmission and the clutch still engaged it will cause some rear wheel slip. It’s almost impossible to “quickly” get the throttle positioned to go to neutral engine coupling which is neither engine acceleration or engine deceleration but a slowly decreasing engine RPM completely in step with normal vehicle coast down rate. This is even more difficult if going up hill as the engine is/was pulling harder on the rear wheel at ice encounter. Even going down a level road there is always a fair amount of engine drive to the rear wheel to maintain vehicle speed. If you don’t believe this just pull the clutch in while riding at a steady speed, the engine will instantly flair up in RPM. The only way to completely remove any chance of engine drag (either positive or negative) on the rear wheel is to quickly pull the clutch in and allow the rear wheel to free spin. Link to comment
randys Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Ok, so you are riding along, about 35mph, suddenly find yourself in an area with snow on the side of the road, and start riding through wet, but not frozen areas on the road, how do you differentiate THIS patch, that has ice, from the 10 previous patches of wet pavement? Link to comment
dirtrider Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Morning Randy First you move up north here so you get used to riding in those conditions. It doesn’t take long to develop a 6th sense about icy areas. Personally I use the ambient temperature and road temperature as a guide. If the air is below freezing and the ground is below 32°f there is ALWAYS the chance encounter for ice on the road. Even if the air is above 32°f but the ground is frozen there is a chance for ice on the road surface. In your scenario above always expect ice in the shaded areas on the road. If you have water on the road in the bright areas always approach the shaded areas using more caution. I watch those shaded areas like a hawk and try to ride through them as straight up as possible with braking prior to the shaded area if needed. In your scenario above I would be riding with the clutch lever covered, entering all shaded areas as straight up as possible, probably more weight on the foot pegs than normal, and paying special attention to the road shoulders or road surface to see where I would have the best traction if I needed to change riding line in the shaded areas. Sometimes the shoulder has more snow than ice or some gravel poking through. Sometimes there are sunny spots on the other side of the wet spot to pre-aim at. Also if ascending in altitude ALWAYS expect ice as you go up in altitude, especially in the shady areas or tree overhang areas. You CAN survive ice on the road encounters (I do every year) but you must ride very heads up and ready for it at every moment. Added: I should have included to also use other rider’s/driver’s markers as a guide. If you start seeing very short or no wet tire tracks coming out of the wet areas or little or no water spray coming from other vehicles tires as they cross the dark areas assume it is starting to freeze. Watch for random brake lights way out in front. If you start seeing random brake lights way out in front assume it is for a reason other than a brake test. Link to comment
Dave_zoom_zoom Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 As a fellow winter rider I believe Dirtrider has some very good advice for us as do several others. I know there is additional risk in winter riding. But if you gotta ride, you gotta ride! Dave PS Hey Dirtrider! If you would like to enjoy even more winter riding, you would be welcome to come a little further north to join us up here. I'm sure you would fit right in! Link to comment
kobukan Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Ok, so you are riding along, about 35mph, suddenly find yourself in an area with snow on the side of the road, and start riding through wet, but not frozen areas on the road, how do you differentiate THIS patch, that has ice, from the 10 previous patches of wet pavement? It's really simple IMO. If it's winter expect to encounter ice. If it's really cold out expect to encounter ice. If there's snow on the ground expect to encounter ice. If there's patches of ice on the side of the rode expect to encounter ice. Ride accordingly. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Ok, so you are riding along, about 35mph, suddenly find yourself in an area with snow on the side of the road, and start riding through wet, but not frozen areas on the road, how do you differentiate THIS patch, that has ice, from the 10 previous patches of wet pavement? I live at 7200' elevation, so we can have ice any month but August (So far, at least). It is actually possible to traverse ice in most conditions as others have noted.....Straight ahead, no braking, clutch in, preferably. But shiney ice, in above freezing air temps, I would stop before I got to it, park and walk on it before I tried to ride across it. With that particular patch, I would have stopped and made a U turn. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. But then, I would not have ridden up Mt. Lemmon (Or anyplace else, for that matter) with loafers on my feet. Link to comment
randys Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I ask the question knowing the rider in the video, a VERY accomplished and experienced rider with MANY miles under his belt. In his actual situation, that was the FIRST ice encountered on the ride. In the video I did not see any traffic ahead to judge brake lights or such. At that speed, which was not all that great, I did not see much opportunity to stop and turn around. and really, the gear had NO affect on the ride whatsoever. he rode in loafer and fingerless gloves. He also rode in a full helmet, which bounced off the ground. Were his fingers or feet affected? NO. If you wont ride with loafers fine, but don't judge anyone else. Link to comment
Lineareagle Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 All he had to do, if he was more aware and riding a tad slower was to slide over to the left side of the road. Ride the shoulder past the ice and be on his way. Often you can get around ice patches and slippery road conditions by riding the shoulder where, often, not always, you will get a better bite into unpacked snow or catch a gravel base. In this case the 'water' did not flow over the left shoulder and so was bare. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Who is judging? My point was that I would not ride anywhere in loafers. What anyone else chooses to wear when they ride (As long as I am not responsible for their comfort or medical bills) is no business of mine. Link to comment
kobukan Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 . . . that was the FIRST ice encountered on the ride . . . With all due respect, the video clearly shows a big patch of ice on the left shoulder just prior to the ice in the road with a frozen stream coming from it running right up to, and coming out of the ice patch that he hit, as well as another very visible patch of ice on the right shoulder prior to the ice he hit. These should have been a warning. There was snow everywhere, but not many puddles, indicating it was obviously cold out, and many shaded areas on a sunny day making it more difficult to see ice in the road, and creating ideal conditions for what occurred. These factors should have been taken into consideration. Those of us who ride regularly in winter conditions know that these are all indicators that speed must be reduced at all times and ice may be encountered at any moment. Link to comment
Lineareagle Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Just a little more information for our riding community that they may or not be aware of. Generally temperature of the air will decrease at a rate around 5 degrees F for every 1000 feet of elevation. So in this scenario our rider may have started out riding in 40 - 45 degree temperatures. Snow was melting, water was flowing and it was a great sunny day. As he ascended into the hills the temp starts going down and before you know it you are below freezing and what was once a nice early spring day is now a late winter day. The runoff has now frozen and what was once water is now ice. I had this happen to me on a short 30 min. ride to work. It had been warm for several days and I decided to ride. It was about 40 out. My office is 700' higher in elevation than where I live. I came around a corner and before me stretched a long road still gripped in frost and ice particles. Slow and easy, on the shoulder to work and I arrived fine. The ride home was uneventful. Link to comment
Thylacine Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My observations aren't that much different from others, but yeah, he made some obviously poor judgment calls. Mt. Lemmon is an anomaly for southern Arizona — a high, snowy place in the middle of a much warmer desert. I've only been there once, but my guess is that Tucson riders/drivers might not have all that much experience with ice and snow. The guy also sounded like he might have had a southern accent, which might also point to less experience with cold-weather riding. Add to that the fingerless gloves, loafers and slacks, and I think we're seeing a video of a guy who was in a bit over his head for the riding conditions. I live at the base of the Wasatch Mtns in Utah and right next to several of the canyons leading up to the ski resorts, like Alta, Snowbird and Park City. I ride most of the winter, but I don't head up the canyons in the winter on my bike. Frozen melt water, black ice, sudden snowy patches, frosty shaded sections, wind-blown snow on the road — they can all take you down in a second. If it's below the mid to upper 30s, and if the roads aren't obviously dry, I'm inclined to stay off the bike. Even when the roads seem mostly dry, cold-weather riding means keeping a careful watch for this kind of thing. I feel for the guy in the video, but he seemed oblivious to dangers there — riding right over an obvious patch of snow melt that looked just like glassy ice. Geech! Link to comment
outpost22 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Terrible thing to dump as bike, then dump it again when picking it up... Can vouch for that, speaking from experience Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Terrible thing to dump as bike, then dump it again when picking it up... Can vouch for that, speaking from experience The advice I give newer riders about picking up their bike also applies to those of us with more experience........Always count to ten slowly before you attempt to pick it up. This accomplishes 2 things.....You have time for anything you broke (On you) to hurt, and someone will likely show up to help you. Just sayin'. Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The advice I give newer riders about picking up their bike also applies to those of us with more experience........Always count to ten slowly before you attempt to pick it up. This accomplishes 2 things.....You have time for anything you broke (On you) to hurt, and someone will likely show up to help you. Just sayin'. I think a part of the motive for quickly righting a bike is the embarrassment of being seen with your bike on its side. In spite of that, and as you've noted, it's important to not rush this process, so you: -have time to assess injuries -don't further damage the bike by screwing up the righting process -don't hurt yourself during the righting process. Haven't crashed, but have dropped the bike more than once. The last couple of times ('05, snapped centerstand at a gas station; '08, big fat keychain dangled and prevented steering correction while coasting slowly down driveway), I made it a point to slowly walk around to the saddle-side of the bike and slowly lift it up after making sure the sidestand was deployed and the transmission was in gear. It took deliberate effort to not rush the process. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Afternoon Well I’m kind in between on quick BMW boxer bike up-righting. While the “make sure everything on your body works” is a very valid point. On older or high mile boxers, upon laying down a BMW boxer (and leaving it over for a while) the lower cylinder can sometimes fill with oil then hydro-lock when trying to re-crank it. In off roading the BMW (and low siding tip over’s) I have seen one GS hydro lock and break a starter at re-crank and another bend a connecting rod. Link to comment
g_frey Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Unless of course they slide over in front of you or, in the worst case senario, they injure their head and become a ward of the state which is extremely expensive for taxpayers. No one ever seems to mention this but a tour of state care facilities will show many such people at least some of whom were doing really stupid things that others now are paying for. Some require near yearly operations of some sort too. Probably the very worst cases are kids who are paying for their parents stupidity! Nothing like a quad brain injured kid who was hurt by his drunken driving parent to brighten up your day. Sorry my chain got pulled and I went off topic. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Afternoon Well I’m kind in between on quick BMW boxer bike up-righting. While the “make sure everything on your body works” is a very valid point. On older or high mile boxers, upon laying down a BMW boxer (and leaving it over for a while) the lower cylinder can sometimes fill with oil then hydro-lock when trying to re-crank it. In off roading the BMW (and low siding tip over’s) I have seen one GS hydro lock and break a starter at re-crank and another bend a connecting rod. Good points, though I believe it would take a fair bit of time for adequate oil to leak past the rings for a hydrolock to be a problem. The only time I have seen this happen, the bike was on its side for several hours. We knew enough to pull the lowside spark plug......Probably blew out 2-3 oz of 20/50. Also, the possibility of a drop is the #1 reason I feel that AGM batteries are a prudent choice in any motorcycle. Knowing that acid is not leaking out of the battery is worth the piece of mind. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Unless of course they slide over in front of you or, in the worst case senario, they injure their head and become a ward of the state which is extremely expensive for taxpayers. No one ever seems to mention this but a tour of state care facilities will show many such people at least some of whom were doing really stupid things that others now are paying for. Some require near yearly operations of some sort too. Probably the very worst cases are kids who are paying for their parents stupidity! Nothing like a quad brain injured kid who was hurt by his drunken driving parent to brighten up your day. Sorry my chain got pulled and I went off topic. Attempting to fix stupid is futile. I quit judging after several conversations with under dressed folks yielded zip results. My favorite pet peave used to be the ones that rode in flipflops.....I would point out how easily they could grind off a toe or two, and get a vacant look. The pretty young things in tank tops/shorts on the back of BF's sportbike, with no clue what road rash looks like, get honorable mention. But then, (Confession) I often ride in levi's........Boots, helmet, gloves, always......Leg protection, not so much. So I don't judge......We just draw our lines in different places. Link to comment
g_frey Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Yep Flip flops? A big IQ sign lights up and reads "1". Yeah the conversations with the t shirt crowd are blank look affairs sure enough. However I can't accept just letting it go. I rode the same way (jeans, jacket, helmet, boots, gloves) until a very slow speed (less than walking speed) fall over required a knee brace for over 2 weeks. My knee hurt bad and with a knee and shin guard it would have been fine. I really could not believe that such a low energy fall could do so much damage. So I added a knee shin guard and it actually worked when I fell while exploring a rock area on the side of the rode. Jeans were toast though. no Bike involved. Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Afternoon Well I’m kind in between on quick BMW boxer bike up-righting. While the “make sure everything on your body works” is a very valid point. On older or high mile boxers, upon laying down a BMW boxer (and leaving it over for a while) the lower cylinder can sometimes fill with oil then hydro-lock when trying to re-crank it. In off roading the BMW (and low siding tip over’s) I have seen one GS hydro lock and break a starter at re-crank and another bend a connecting rod. Good points, though I believe it would take a fair bit of time for adequate oil to leak past the rings for a hydrolock to be a problem. The only time I have seen this happen, the bike was on its side for several hours. We knew enough to pull the lowside spark plug......Probably blew out 2-3 oz of 20/50. I had a drop on my 1100RT and it hydrolocked in about 3 minutes on it's side. That lock broke the starter which was a much cheaper replacement. I think the culprit there was an overfull crankcase that had blown oil out the breathers into the airbox which let it drain down the intake manifold. Link to comment
Thylacine Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The pretty young things in tank tops/shorts on the back of BF's sportbike, with no clue what road rash looks like, get honorable mention. Then again... Link to comment
Mister Tee Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The pretty young things in tank tops/shorts on the back of BF's sportbike, with no clue what road rash looks like, get honorable mention. Then again... There was a sportbike in that picture? Link to comment
Fubar Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Agreed. Black ice is near impossible to deal with using four wheels! Got that right! Link to comment
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