More H-D problems

[Steve W.]

Looks like some H-D dealers are closing.

 

Cheers

Steve

[kinchy]

Inevitable given the economy and HD's aging core customer. When HD and BMW partnered here in northern NJ (Bergen County HD/BMW)I couldn't beleive it. Not that BMW is ringing the bell but HD Sales will have to come from abroad as they try and adjust to changing customer demographics. I thought the VRod was a clean start but their base seems reluctant to consider it "a real Harley". It should be interesting to see how they reinvent themselves while retaining as much of their core as they can.

 

 

[beemerman2k]

What I don't understand is why they didn't do more with that VRod engine. I expected to see a line of Buell motorcycles with that new engine in it. Imagine the performance that motorcycle could have attained with a liquid cooled VTwin engine? Limiting that great piece of technology to just one motorcycle model like that seems to me to be a waste of resources. Jettison the cruiser if it's not considered a "real Harley", put that engine in a Buell (well, they could have anyhow).

[Huzband]

... performance ...

 

Therein lies the problem. HD is stuck in their old school technology ,( sorry for the oxymoron) more than BMW were a few years ago.

[moshe_levy]

One wise exec once described GM to me as "a bank that happens to make cars once in awhile." Harley's finance arm is stong - strong enough that its profit last year more than offset the loss of motorcycle sales. See http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/46503/Harley+Revives,+Not+Yet+Profitable Don't count them out yet. That's the same old song and dance people have been preaching for over 25 years now, and it doesn't have legs.

 

-MKL

[sfarson]

H-D is down, but not down as much as the industry. They are actually gaining share. That was a biased article not noting at all the industry as a whole is down even more vs. H-D, and has been so the past few years. Seems as though I'm coming across news daily of another motorcycle dealership closing. Fewer dealerships, and marginal ones at that, will be good for H-D. Another report with less biased commentary...

 

====

"Harley-Davidson sold 222,110 units in 2010, down 8.5% from 242,634 units sold the previous year. U.S. sales totaled 143,391 units, a decrease of 11.7% from 2009 but ahead of the industry-wide 15.8% decrease in U.S. sales reported by the Motorcycle Industry Council. Based on the MIC’s data, Harley-Davidson sales accounted for 32.7% of all U.S. motorcycle sales and 46.7% of on-highway model sales."

 

“In the U.S., we are the market share leader in new on-road motorcycle sales, not only to Boomers but to young adults, women, African-American and Hispanic riders,” says Wandell. “In Europe, we moved into the number two market share spot for heavyweight motorcycles in 2010. For 2011, we plan to build on our position as one of the strongest brands in the world through our continued focus on customer-led products and experiences.”

 

For 2011, Harley-Davidson expects to ship 221,000 to 228,000 motorcycles worldwide, an increase of 5-8% from 2010 shipments.

=======

[sfarson]

What I don't understand is why they didn't do more with that VRod engine. I expected to see a line of Buell motorcycles with that new engine in it. Imagine the performance that motorcycle could have attained with a liquid cooled VTwin engine? Limiting that great piece of technology to just one motorcycle model like that seems to me to be a waste of resources. Jettison the cruiser if it's not considered a "real Harley", put that engine in a Buell (well, they could have anyhow).

 

Erik Buell didn't want it. It was a heavy engine and he didn't care for all the visible plumbing.

 

FWIW, the V-Rod is one of H-D's biggest sellers overseas (A market less wedded to the air cooled legacy), and with most V-Rod owners worldwide coming from other makes, it has largely been extra business versus just trading $$$ with owners already loyal to Milwaukee. I once saw V-Rod specific annual volume #'s, and in the U.S. this single bike that year just about equalled the U.S. volume of all BMW's combined.

[upflying]

With 36 dealers closing, there is still approximately 800 dealers left in the USA.

One can also assume HD woes are magnified by the bad economy and how it affects LEO agencies, especially here in Bankruptifornia.

The city I live in has completely disbanded their traffic unit. No one is writing tickets and Anitoch PD is not buying new Harley Davidson's. That applies to brand B or K police bikes too.

[kinchy]

Interesting article Moshe, thanks.

Certainly, HD rebounded from adversity in the past. But the current environment does present unique challenges. Millennials are the target market most advertisers are trying to covet today. Predictive modeling has helped but essentially their product, service and brand preferences are unlike that of any previous generation. The beer and automotive marketers are feeling that and can't believe the shifts. Albeit HD management has initiated change (responding to market dynamics) their future as the shift in consumer brand preferences evolves remains a case study for business buffs. I represent the "demographic core" referenced in my post. I would love a VRod in my garage, space being the primary inhibitor. I hope HD starts transforming to a new platform. I’m starting to feel young whenever I visit the dealership we’re both familiar with.

 

[hopz]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

[kmac]

Culling the herd, survival of the fittest, only the strong survive, call it what you want. It is inevitable that in a reduced economy like ours that the weak will not survive.

 

It worked well for Chrysler, Ford and GM who are all doing better this last year after eliminating some of their makes recently and closing dealerships. Like Mercury, Hummer, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Plymouth and a few others along with their dealership networks. It has turned all three of the Big auto makers around. Maybe it will help with HD. Not that I care about HD, I am really burned out on them and doubt I will ever own another one.

[outpost22]

Bankruptifornia.

 

Couldn't let that one slip by.

[Ponch]

This was posted on another forum I frequent. The guy is a little over the top, but I'd like to see a BMW salesman this passionate (Actually any bike salesman).

 

segment 1

 

segment 2

 

segment 3

 

segment 4

 

segment 5

[Chip]

I don't want to see Mike in a motorcyle dealership. If I did, I'd have another bike in my garage

[Dan5620]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

 

Let me guess...one of those advanced, technically sophisticated items you mentioned is the ever hotter running engine? The one with the ability to try cooling itself by limiting the number of times its rear cylinder fires at a stop....while your thighs are register VERY HOT on the KFC cooking scale?

 

Or is it the ever increasing sized diameter bolt used at the rear axle, for a more stable and less frame flexing ride? Larger diameter bolts are very new in the engineering scene - right?

 

Or how about those space age plastic covers for channeling heat away from the rider and on to the transmission housing. I could go on...however after 109 years of evolution they've pretty much still got a 1948 machine sitting there...not that it isn't pretty...just not not sure how high it goes on the sophistication list.

 

And given the price being asked for their product, compared to their competitors, that actually do have sophisticated machines...it makes me wonder where the value is....it must be in the chrome...that, they have taken to the highest level.

[SuperG]

I don't want to see Mike in a motorcyle dealership. If I did, I'd have another bike in my garage

 

My point exactly.

Mike ( the guy in the video) is an excellent sales person.

He could sell an Eskimo ice made/imported from Arizona.

 

TO a novice buyer it is a sure sale, right?

 

FIrst: Harley or Victory are not my style so I am unbiased.

 

Mike is comparing an engine/technology that is purposely held back in the technology /evolution department to an engine/bike that wants to mimic a Harley and just surfaced about 10 years ago.

 

a fair comparison would be to compare the victory engine a V-rod engine only; not jumping back and forth btw push rod eng. and V-rod to compare to victory.

 

Some of the items he is fooling the buyer is laughable.

 

cam chain tensioner: small vs. large on the Victory. YEAH ! How long of a chain are you tensioning or need tensioning on an overhead cam engine(victory) where you are running a chain from the crankshaft to the top of the engine and back vs. running a cam chain on Harley from the crank to a cam that just sits above the crank and below the piston? Of course you need a much shorter chain and a smaller tensioner.

 

The fuel injetor debate and the air cleaner location(heat) is BS also.

 

Starter motor comparation is BS also. Why would you want to hit a starter motor on an already running engine? Please don't say you could not tell if it was running or not.

 

I could go on-and-on. but is it is pointless and useless.

 

The Harleys are for a specific breed those that actually remove the modern fuel injection and put SS pumper carbs on it as soon as the bring their bike home. And apparently there is a market for these old school bikes and those who buy it don't want it any other way, hence the slow sale of V-rods.

 

Ok... I rest my case and go to work now

 

[BFish]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

 

Let me guess...one of those advanced, technically sophisticated items you mentioned is the ever hotter running engine? The one with the ability to try cooling itself by limiting the number of times its rear cylinder fires at a stop....while your thighs are register VERY HOT on the KFC cooking scale?

 

Or is it the ever increasing sized diameter bolt used at the rear axle, for a more stable and less frame flexing ride? Larger diameter bolts are very new in the engineering scene - right?

 

Or how about those space age plastic covers for channeling heat away from the rider and on to the transmission housing. I could go on...however after 109 years of evolution they've pretty much still got a 1948 machine sitting there...not that it isn't pretty...just not not sure how high it goes on the sophistication list.

 

And given the price being asked for their product, compared to their competitors, that actually do have sophisticated machines...it makes me wonder where the value is....it must be in the chrome...that, they have taken to the highest level.

 

regardless of your opinion...like it or not...hopz is absolutely correct.

[tallman]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

 

Let me guess...one of those advanced, technically sophisticated items you mentioned is the ever hotter running engine? The one with the ability to try cooling itself by limiting the number of times its rear cylinder fires at a stop....while your thighs are register VERY HOT on the KFC cooking scale?

 

Or is it the ever increasing sized diameter bolt used at the rear axle, for a more stable and less frame flexing ride? Larger diameter bolts are very new in the engineering scene - right?

 

Or how about those space age plastic covers for channeling heat away from the rider and on to the transmission housing. I could go on...however after 109 years of evolution they've pretty much still got a 1948 machine sitting there...not that it isn't pretty...just not not sure how high it goes on the sophistication list.

 

And given the price being asked for their product, compared to their competitors, that actually do have sophisticated machines...it makes me wonder where the value is....it must be in the chrome...that, they have taken to the highest level.

 

regardless of your opinion...like it or not...hopz is absolutely correct.

 

Besides, I qualify for the 72 year finance plan.

What's not to like?

[hopz]

Hello Dan... welcome on board.

 

What I mean is... Fly-by-Wire throttle, reduced frame flex in touring models, standard audio system (touring models) far superior to anything on BMW, Brembo/ABS Brakes ... etc.

 

But what do I know about Harleys? Only 20+ years worth of experience including full frame-up engine out restorations and customs.

 

But I know what you mean. Lipstick on a pig does not change much. However, BMW would be pretty happy with half the volume of H-D. Pricing is value based not cost based. Ever compare depreciation numbers on say, a 5 year old H-D touring model to a BMW?

 

Like I said, welcome... but maybe you could fill out some on your profile.

 

[Ponch]

HD's don't stop as well as a BMW. I don't care if they add dynamic braking with a parachute. That's my impression anyway, after riding both in test rides prior to buying the RT. I do think that the Ultra handles better than the Nomad I had and stops better than it too. The thing was, when talking to the HD salesman, he couldn't close the deal for me. When I did a ben franklin, he didn't have a come back of what they HD offered that the BMW didn't or even matched. It was as if I had to suspend rationality and just believe. I don't operate quite like that. If there is one thing I think HD needs to learn is how to deal with the left hemisphere of the brain.

[baggerchris]

First off, I've been riding HD for over 40 years, starting with a flathead; up through sportsters and on to the big twins.

I also love and ride other makes; I have a Honda and BMW in my garage right now. While I love the Vrod Engine, I hate it's frame. Enough said. I also think that HD could advance the big twin design to add oil cooling and four valves per cylinder; keep the old look but add some modern tech, sorta like what BMW did with the oil heads. I think all of these things are in their pipeline, it just remains to be seen if and when they roll them out. Judging from the speed in which they make upgrades, it should only take them about 20 more years to do the above. But I have to say, that for pure riding fun, I love my 1997 Heritage Softail Classic.

[Ponch]

Or they can look at what Kawasaki did with the V2K, which is most of that, except they added liquid cooling.

[hopz]

Just to be sure you catch my point Ponch. I am not comparing H-D Touring models to BMW. I am saying that H-D builds a better bike than they used to and the market they serve, especially first timers, will like those things.

 

True, there is no shortage of sales persons who are unable to think and that is so for any brand you would care to mention and not just in motorcycles either- all walks of life.

 

Suspending Reality is an excellent ability that unfortunately too often is exercised on the motorcycle sales floor. On either side of the deal.

[Mike]

H-D has certainly done some awfully smart things over the past couple of decades, and I'm hopeful that they haven't run out of ideas. I disagree with the assessments about their lack of technology. While the machines certainly evoke days gone by in their appearance, the underlying technology is actually pretty impressive. Maybe not as bleeding edge as some of BMW's latest, but impressive nonetheless.

 

[NonComp]

HD's best skill is building brand identity. For the majority of Harley owners, there is no other brand -- period.

[Uncle Beemer]

HD's best skill is building brand identity. For the majority of Harley owners, there is no other brand -- period.

 

Precisely! And that is the reason people keep buying them. Regardless of maintenance costs.

[Ponch]

Just to be sure you catch my point Ponch. I am not comparing H-D Touring models to BMW. I am saying that H-D builds a better bike than they used to and the market they serve, especially first timers, will like those things.

 

True, there is no shortage of sales persons who are unable to think and that is so for any brand you would care to mention and not just in motorcycles either- all walks of life.

 

Suspending Reality is an excellent ability that unfortunately too often is exercised on the motorcycle sales floor. On either side of the deal.

 

The funny thing is, I am sure HD put more engineering into their bikes than people realize. Safety, emissions, ride-ability, durability etc. May be some people equate what HD makes and sells with what the monkeys at OCC make. It couldn't be further from the truth.

 

As far as reality goes, I usually have a very good idea what I want, what is offered, how much it should cost and how much I can pay when I go shopping. As with any deal anywhere, you have to be willing to walk away.

[kinchy]

Building brand is what they're fabulous at. The way they sell image is second to none. As much as I enjoy the RT it's still great riding the big girl. Simply don't do it as often. I do take exception to one post re: great resale value. Those days are over.

[kmac]

As HD has added 6 speed and 103 CI the older models are dead on value.

 

My buddy just bought a 2005 heritage softail with 9k on the clock for $8100.00

 

I have put a few miles on it, and man, what horrible brakes!!!!

 

That thing is a blubbering pig. The FI doesn't work to save its life. It drags everything on the ground at moderate speeds in turns, and it is not lowered, YET.

 

Best thing I ever did was sell my '02 HD superglide...best thing motorcycle related anyway.

I grew up DYED in the WOOl HD. My dad and Both grandpas, uncle's, and even a great grandpa were ALL HD guys and a few Indian Chiefs thrown in. Out growing that IMAGE thing has helped me in many ways.

But that is just me maybe.

[Dan5620]

Hello Dan... welcome on board.

 

What I mean is... Fly-by-Wire throttle, reduced frame flex in touring models, standard audio system (touring models) far superior to anything on BMW, Brembo/ABS Brakes ... etc.

 

But what do I know about Harleys? Only 20+ years worth of experience including full frame-up engine out restorations and customs.

 

But I know what you mean. Lipstick on a pig does not change much. However, BMW would be pretty happy with half the volume of H-D. Pricing is value based not cost based. Ever compare depreciation numbers on say, a 5 year old H-D touring model to a BMW?

 

Like I said, welcome... but maybe you could fill out some on your profile.

 

Thanks for the welcome, but I've been posting for years...seems the system didn't pick up on my sign in for some reason and I found the best way to get back on is using my other address.

 

I agree with you, to an extent, but yes it is still the same bike. Which, it should be....that's what the market wanted and Harley did an excellent job of providing what people wanted to buy.

 

I've road and sold them (Harley/BMW/Japanese dealerships) part time for over 25 years along with any number of other bikes.

 

Thanks for the welcome.

[Dan5620]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

 

Let me guess...one of those advanced, technically sophisticated items you mentioned is the ever hotter running engine? The one with the ability to try cooling itself by limiting the number of times its rear cylinder fires at a stop....while your thighs are register VERY HOT on the KFC cooking scale?

 

Or is it the ever increasing sized diameter bolt used at the rear axle, for a more stable and less frame flexing ride? Larger diameter bolts are very new in the engineering scene - right?

 

Or how about those space age plastic covers for channeling heat away from the rider and on to the transmission housing. I could go on...however after 109 years of evolution they've pretty much still got a 1948 machine sitting there...not that it isn't pretty...just not not sure how high it goes on the sophistication list.

 

And given the price being asked for their product, compared to their competitors, that actually do have sophisticated machines...it makes me wonder where the value is....it must be in the chrome...that, they have taken to the highest level.

 

regardless of your opinion...like it or not...hopz is absolutely correct.

 

Chill out...you don't have to rescue anyone...posters can stand on their own....as I'm sure hopz does. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, but gee "like it or not"...what bought that on? It is okay if someone differs from another opinion...there is no need to get defensive....ya okay now?

[BFish]

H-D stock is up something like 300 percent since its low after the crash (in general numbers-not relying on math).

 

Their product line is growing more advanced and technically sophisticated. The Bikes are growing more sophisticated every year.The largest part of the baby-boomer wave is near and regardless of the economy many will be retiring or revising their work-leisure life.

 

Don't count them out yet.

 

Let me guess...one of those advanced, technically sophisticated items you mentioned is the ever hotter running engine? The one with the ability to try cooling itself by limiting the number of times its rear cylinder fires at a stop....while your thighs are register VERY HOT on the KFC cooking scale?

 

Or is it the ever increasing sized diameter bolt used at the rear axle, for a more stable and less frame flexing ride? Larger diameter bolts are very new in the engineering scene - right?

 

Or how about those space age plastic covers for channeling heat away from the rider and on to the transmission housing. I could go on...however after 109 years of evolution they've pretty much still got a 1948 machine sitting there...not that it isn't pretty...just not not sure how high it goes on the sophistication list.

 

And given the price being asked for their product, compared to their competitors, that actually do have sophisticated machines...it makes me wonder where the value is....it must be in the chrome...that, they have taken to the highest level.

 

regardless of your opinion...like it or not...hopz is absolutely correct.

 

Chill out...you don't have to rescue anyone...posters can stand on their own....as I'm sure hopz does. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, but gee "like it or not"...what bought that on? It is okay if someone differs from another opinion...there is no need to get defensive....ya okay now?

 

 

 

 

you want me to chill out and not be defensive? i know hopz can stand on his own quite well. i was merely agreeing with his observation.

[dhanson]

So what is STOCK? Is that where we can take bets on someone's company?

 

That always amazed me, at the race track, the favorite usually was the morning line favorite after all the bets (stock) but not always. Maybe some people had some inside info or something, to make a 12 to 1 horse 2 to 1.

 

The horses never knew how to read the tote board (I hope), they just ran, pretty close races in most cases which did not justify the points spread.

[NonComp]

Imagine a motorcycle company in this day and age still flogging a 70 year old designed, air-cooled, twin cylinder engine that is fundamentally unchanged since its introduction, and still making money doing it. Oh wait, I just described the boxer, didn't I?

[Ponch]

Imagine a motorcycle company in this day and age still flogging a 70 year old designed, air-cooled, twin cylinder engine that is fundamentally unchanged since its introduction, and still making money doing it. Oh wait, I just described the boxer, didn't I?

 

A little more was changed with the boxer and it was a better design to start with.

[tallman]

Imagine a motorcycle company in this day and age still flogging a 70 year old designed, air-cooled, twin cylinder engine that is fundamentally unchanged since its introduction, and still making money doing it. Oh wait, I just described the boxer, didn't I?

 

70 year old design?

 

Is that the Canadian exchange rate for years?

90th Anniversary not too far off...

[NonComp]

Wild guess on my part. I'll take 90 years. The interesting part is that both HD V-twin and the BMW Boxer are iconic engines for their marques. In the context of the rejection of the V-Rod by HD enthusiasts, I wonder how beemer lovers will take to a water-cooled boxer?

[Ponch]

We'll find out soon enough.

[Quinn]

Wild guess on my part. I'll take 90 years. The interesting part is that both HD V-twin and the BMW Boxer are iconic engines for their marques. In the context of the rejection of the V-Rod by HD enthusiasts, I wonder how beemer lovers will take to a water-cooled boxer?

 

I would think that beemer enthusiasts would consider it just part of the natural evolution to go water-cooled. No more significant than going from carbs to fuel injection or adding oil cooler. With all the different engine configurations BMW has out there, I think the brand loyalty is to the company's commitment to innovation and quality and not to engine sound or configuration.

 

----

 

 

[wbrissette]

What I don't understand is why they didn't do more with that VRod engine. I expected to see a line of Buell motorcycles with that new engine in it.

 

Have you seen the weight of that thing? Initially Buell was involved in that engine, but as Erik has stated many times, as the weight kept growing, he realized there was simply no place for it on a sportbike. The Rotax engine used in the Buell 1125 was the first real engine that gave the imports a run for their money. It's a sweet engine (now, there were some initial hiccups), but it's all a moot point and HD didn't really want to use that engine or go that direction.

 

HD will continue to see declines unless they can overcome the age factor. Economics have killed a lot of things right now, but the one thing HD can control is design and got to have. BMW seems to finally overcome the age factor with the introduction of the 1000RR, but prior to that, BMW was also seeing the median age of their riders going up and not down.

 

Wayne

[Paul Mihalka]

BMW conquered a lot of new customers with the F and G bikes and with the S1000 who would not have bought a R or K bike.

[Dan5620]

What I don't understand is why they didn't do more with that VRod engine. I expected to see a line of Buell motorcycles with that new engine in it.

 

Have you seen the weight of that thing? Initially Buell was involved in that engine, but as Erik has stated many times, as the weight kept growing, he realized there was simply no place for it on a sportbike. The Rotax engine used in the Buell 1125 was the first real engine that gave the imports a run for their money. It's a sweet engine (now, there were some initial hiccups), but it's all a moot point and HD didn't really want to use that engine or go that direction.

 

HD will continue to see declines unless they can overcome the age factor. Economics have killed a lot of things right now, but the one thing HD can control is design and got to have. BMW seems to finally overcome the age factor with the introduction of the 1000RR, but prior to that, BMW was also seeing the median age of their riders going up and not down.

 

Wayne

 

One way HD can overcome the age factor, is buying controlling interest of Batesville Casket Company. Simply chrome the casket out and use handlebars as pallbearer grips. Perhaps including a music button (like in those music Hallmark cards) - push and get that po-ta-to-po-ta-to sound while being carried....just a thought....marketing is not my specialty.

[Ron_B]

I wonder how beemer lovers will take to a water-cooled boxer?

 

We'll find out soon enough.

 

I would think that beemer enthusiasts would consider it just part of the natural evolution to go water-cooled.

 

I seem to remember some bellyaching when they introduced the first brick. Four cylinders? A radiator on a Beemer? Uhhhg. Now, with nearly 30 years to get used to it, I think it will go over just fine. Besides, we've already had oil cooling radiators on boxers for quite a while.

 

Maybe BMW should take a lesson from metric cruisers and put faux-fins on the water jackets to please the aesthetic sensibilities of the traditionalists. Harley too, when they finally water cool the V.

[Ponch]

I wonder how beemer lovers will take to a water-cooled boxer?

 

We'll find out soon enough.

 

I would think that beemer enthusiasts would consider it just part of the natural evolution to go water-cooled.

 

I seem to remember some bellyaching when they introduced the first brick. Four cylinders? A radiator on a Beemer? Uhhhg. Now, with nearly 30 years to get used to it, I think it will go over just fine. Besides, we've already had oil cooling radiators on boxers for quite a while.

 

Maybe BMW should take a lesson from metric cruisers and put faux-fins on the water jackets to please the aesthetic sensibilities of the traditionalists. Harley too, when they finally water cool the V.

 

My Nomad had real fins. Honda on the other hand is known to bolt fins on their liquid cooled cylinders.

[NonComp]

I wonder why HD hasn't put the V-Rod engine in a touring frame. That's the place where I would think it would have the most appeal.

[wbrissette]

BMW conquered a lot of new customers with the F and G bikes and with the S1000 who would not have bought a R or K bike.

 

Agreed, but it really was the 1000RR that seemed to have excited younger riders. The G and F bikes were helped by a public that wanted a dual-sport design, but there are a lot of us over 40 who also loved that idea. The median age for the S1000RR is in their 30's. That's what HD has to do, get the under 40 crowd involved, which up to now they have only had limited success. Their all black (little or no chrome) bikes are selling to younger riders, but the median age still isn't budging according to various sources.

 

I think too it's import to remember that BMW has a car division that has a sleek hip moniker, and so there is some DNA at BMW that knows how to appeal to younger folks. I honestly think that is missing at HD.

 

Wayne

[NonComp]

I would think that beemer enthusiasts would consider it just part of the natural evolution to go water-cooled. No more significant than going from carbs to fuel injection or adding oil cooler. With all the different engine configurations BMW has out there, I think the brand loyalty is to the company's commitment to innovation and quality and not to engine sound or configuration.

Been thinking about this. Not sure. Water cooling will definitely add weight. The GS will be heavier. But more significantly, there would no longer be any reason to have the jugs sticking out in the wind, if the bike is water cooled. So in theory, the GS could be narrower with a different engine configuration (think Super T).

[Boffin]

Been thinking about this. Not sure. Water cooling will definitely add weight.

 

This is not necessarily the case. Water is a much better cooling medium than oil or fins, so you can build the engine with much less metal. Even aluminium weighs more than water.

 

Andy

[NonComp]

Steel radiator. Hoses. Waterpump and associated gearing. Coolant. Thermostat. It's going to weigh more. And the heads are going to bulkier. Oops, forgot fan motor(s).

[Ponch]

Radiators are aluminium. Very light. The thing is, I bet you'd see less metal mass with a liquid cooled engine. On sport bikes, the cooling jacket looks like it is shrink wrapped around the cylinders.