Very sad day today with shootings of LEO's

[Bud]

Those who volunteer to serve and protect do a job that I wouldn't and I thank them for doing so. Sometimes they make the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Heartbreaking.

[Firefight911]

The thin blue line just got thinner. ay they rest in peace and may their friends, colleagues, and families find joy in an otherwise joyless situation.

 

News article

[motorman587]

Very sad, they had two more Florida LEO last week shot and killed serving another warrant...........Hope I make another 4...RIP

[lvmyks]

Came home on the 23rd from a road trip. A shooting in Port Orchard WA, about 25 miles from our home, two dead..two Officers wounded.

Turnned on the internet, four Officers wounded in Detroit Mich Sunday afternoon.

I Hate when I get a Driving Award, but Love the job all Officers do to Protect and Serve.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Pretty unreal. Hopefully, a statistical aberration and not a trend.

[Twisties]

Pretty unreal. Hopefully, a statistical aberration and not a trend.

 

[Rant]January to date same as last January, and on track for the same kind of year, according to:

 

This Piece.

 

Just the media making hay over a precinct storming, as best I can tell, and LEOs whining for more money, if you read the piece.

 

With 800,000 LEOs in the US (Reference) and 162 killed a year in the line of duty (Edit: Reference in the first link, above) the death rate is moderate compared to other occupations.

 

For instance:

 

As with the previous year, the four occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2007 were fishers and related fishing workers with a fatality rate of 111.8 per 100,000 workers, logging workers (86.4 per 100,000), aircraft pilots and flight engineers (66.7 per 100,000), and structural iron and steel workers (45.5 per 100,000).

(Reference)

 

The LEO rate of 162 in 800,000 works out to 20.3 per 100,000. LEOs don't even make the top ten. (Reference)

 

Mind you, I am not suggesting that LEOs be any less vigilant, or that their jobs aren't tough, or that we fail to adequately supply and train them. Of course every occupational death is a tragedy.

 

But I do get a bit tired of the false impression that LEOing is so risky, and so heroic.

 

With today's headlines bleating out about a war on police, when in fact nothing out of line with normal has occurred, I've pretty much boiled over.[/rant]

 

Edit: Sharon told me to put the flame suit on I've got it all ready to go! ))

 

[Mike]

Jan, I'm not so sure I disagree. While each of these situations is tragic, I wonder if it's as out of control as is being portrayed by the news media. The stats were up last year, but this strikes me as the latest "hot" story, one that will be hyped for the foreseeable future.

 

It happens regularly in our news media.

[David13]

It is sad.

And it is also sad that people who are not LEOs get shot every day of the week.

"Innocent?" people, who were just walking along, minding their own business.

The other day a night clerk in a store in Long Beach. Some poor individual who had to work the night shift for his money.

Pizza delivery boys.

Children.

So yes, I also have a difficulty thinking it is so much more sad when it is a LEO.

Or that it should have much more attention.

dc

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

With the exception of a few careers, you don't go to work hoping that someone doesn't take the opportunity to prevent you from ever coming home and, if they try, you have the opportunity to respond...in kind, before them.

 

Accidents are included in those numbers but, go outside of the dry numbers of the internet and think broader. The events of the last few days weren't accidents but the numbers wash into the overall count.

 

 

[Twisties]

With the exception of a few careers, you don't go to work hoping that someone doesn't take the opportunity to prevent you from ever coming home and, if they try, you have the opportunity to respond...in kind, before them.

 

Accidents are included in those numbers but, go outside of the dry numbers of the internet and think broader. The events of the last few days weren't accidents but the numbers wash into the overall count.

 

 

True, true.

 

But I do go to work thinking about the risks. Chemistry is actually pretty risky when you factor in occupational disease. Cancer is no pretty thing.

 

Lately I've done a fair amount of work where there are some very highly toxic materials: Chlorine gas, chemical warfare agents, and other stuff. I think about risk every time I enter such an environment. I think about risk when I get fitted for a mask, or other personal protective equipment, when I check the engineering controls, when I read the MSDSs and realize how much my life depends on the very imperfect knowledge of toxicology that goes into those things. My life also depends on trusting to others to do their jobs right. I'm not sure how different that is.

 

Like I say, I support the LEOs in their efforts to be safe, and I know it's a tough job. I just don't think the risks are what the public perceives, or the media portrays.

 

I would hate to see either the escalation in violence against LEOs you fear, or the use of these incidents to justify a short fuse/toughened stance by LEOs.

 

Frankly, as I have said often here, I think we are just way too violent a society, and we refuse to address that. that is the core issue we need to be thinking about.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The Detroit case is bizarre. A guy walked into a police station yesterday and just started blasting away. Fortunately no fatalities other than the perp, who is believed to have been intending a suicide-by-cop, as he was under investigation for some sort of sex crime. Two officers treated and released, one in serious condition and one stable after surgery.

 

As bad as it seems these past few days, the coverage is reminiscent of The Summer of the Shark.

[Twisties]

The Detroit case is bizarre. A guy walked into a police station yesterday and just started blasting away. Fortunately no fatalities other than the perp, who is believed to have been intending a suicide-by-cop, as he was under investigation for some sort of sex crime. Two officers treated and released, one in serious condition and one stable after surgery.

 

As bad as it seems these past few days, the coverage is reminiscent of The Summer of the Shark.

 

Agreed. 100%.

[DaveTheAffable]

Jan,

How many chemists or fishermen were MURDERED last year because they were chemists or fishermen

 

Chemicals will cause death, but they are inanimate. They do not seek to murder.

 

I haven't heard of anyone laying in wait to murder loggers either.

 

Murder is always horrible, whether a store clerk or a leo. But not quite the same as accidental hazards.

[bendbill]

Jan,

How many chemists or fishermen were MURDERED last year because they were chemists or fishermen?

 

Sheesh, Dave: are you trying to be a troublemaker by making a distinction between accidental industrial deaths and homicides

committed with specific intent? I'm with you.

[DaveTheAffable]

Sheesh, Dave: are you trying to be a troublemaker by making a distinction between accidental industrial deaths and homicides committed with specific intent? I'm with you.

Nawwww... I'm to affable to be a troublemaker.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Murder is always horrible, whether a store clerk or a leo. But not quite the same as accidental hazards.

 

Firemen will be a bit bothered to hear that.

 

So will this guy:

 

Man Crushed to Death After fall Into Tortilla Mixer

 

I expect his widow and daughter aren't particularly comforted by the fact that his gruesome death was just an industrial accident and not the result of foul play.

[RichEdwards]

Sorry to hear about the deaths of two local Florida policemen. I know all cops risk this every day and I respect them for their courage. RIP.

[DaveTheAffable]

Mitch!

 

I in NO way tried to compare the value of lives, or the tragedy, or the impact to families, of ANY death.

 

Comments were made as to media and others reaction to recent leo deaths, and I am suggesting that it may because they were murdered during their duties.

 

You have NO idea how many firefighter memorials I've wept at, and any suggestion that I think ones death is less tragic than others is offensive.

 

But... I'm still affable.

[philbytx]

Yes. Sad indeed and some interesting statistics posted.

 

However, IMHO, the media focus on LEO death's may well be due to their propensity to beat the drum on more regulation of firearms. You know, if if wasn't for those nasty guns, this wouldn't have happened. Unfortunately, these idiots either ignore, or do not understand, that the genie has been out of the bottle GLOBALLY for too many years and bad guys everywhere can easily get hold of a firearm. It is what it is and, as we all know, government regulation and/or interference with a subject guarantees nothing!

 

Unnecessary and tragic deaths WITH government oversight/regulation? We could go on, ad nauseum, about highway deaths caused by poor or insufficient training, lax regulations and weak enforcement of the law. The poor buggers on the receiving end of a drunk drivers recklessness cannot be proactive, or mitigate circumstances, against such occurrences. LEO's can be somewhat pro-active by wearing a weapon and body armor and, to a lesser extent, so can CCW holders. However, an ambush is an ambush, so luck/timing is everything isn't it.

 

Bad sh*# do happen.....and if you live and work in a field of animals, unless you are fully aware, at some time you may well step in it .

 

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I in NO way tried to compare the value of lives, or the tragedy, or the impact to families, of ANY death.

 

Comments were made as to media and others reaction to recent leo deaths, and I am suggesting that it may because they were murdered during their duties.

 

Ah. I misunderstood your meaning then - sorry - and if I understand you correctly now, I think I agree with what you've written above: the media-sensationalism value of a murder is higher than that of a death-by-misadventure. (Do I understand you correctly?)

 

[Mike]

Having been an LEO--but certainly not in the high-crime environment where some of these incidents have occurred--the fact is that you always have to be on your toes. Seemingly minor incidents can rapidly spiral into something much more sinister, and it's often the case that you don't know what type of individual you're encountering.

 

I have a lot of respect for the profession, but I also know that news organizations often take blips in statistics or a random confluence of events to create a story. As tragic as each of these deaths was, we need to remember that there are those who would hype these deaths for their own benefit, whether it's to sell newspapers or gain an advantage in some other manner.

 

These murders should not change the way that any cop acts; their presumption should always be (and should always have been) that things can go to hell in a handbasket, in the flash of an eye.

[DaveTheAffable]

Mitch.. (hard to use quote feature, I'm on road using droid)

Yes... probably a lot of people don''t appreciate the liqour store clerk, or the tortilla maker. And they should.

 

Not just media, but when someone is murdered because of their public service, it "feels" very different. Certainly no less tragic than any other death.

 

Lots of jobs have hazards and risks. It's just that leo is one of a handful where there are people looking for a chance to murder you.

 

As for the media, ask any "group" if the media reports accurately what goes on in their group, and they will tell you "no".

 

 

 

[Ken H.]

Gee Jan, there you go again; confusing the issue with facts!

 

Let’s face it, these days the media will hype anything if they think it will boost their ratings to sell a buck more of advertizing space. It’s no longer the least bit about reporting; it’s about selling.

 

[tallman]

It isn't just about how many are killed in an occupation.

 

There were seven occupations where the incidence rate per 10,000 full-time workers was greater than 300 and the number

of cases with days away from work was greater than 20,000. These occupations also had at least one-tenth of one percent

of total employment and include police and sheriff’s patrol officers; nursing aides, orderlies and attendants; light or

delivery service truck drivers; laborers and freight, stock and material movers; construction laborers; tractor-trailer

truck drivers; and janitors and cleaners. (See table 3.)

 

Of these seven occupations, laborers and freight, stock, and material movers had an incidence rate of 407 cases per

10,000 full-time workers and the highest number of days-away-from-work injuries and illnesses in 2009 with

64,910 (primarily in private industry).

Police and sheriff’s patrol officers had the highest incidence rate, with

603 cases per 10,000 full-time workers (primarily in local government) for occupations with at least one-tenth of

one percent of total employment. Janitors and cleaners had an incidence rate of 316 cases and a case count of

48,180 total cases of nonfatal occupational injuries and illnesses, in which 56 percent occurred in the private

sector and 36 percent occurred in local government.

 

Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

Not looking to start a data debate, but few people know one is a chemist when coming and going to work.

Few ask a chemist to help with an emergent situation that has injury risk, few ask chemists to serve and protect the community from criminals, to bring order out of chaos.

Data doesn't necessarily convey the totality of risk one's vocation.

 

Correctional officers and jailers had an incidence rate of 451 cases, which is about two-and-one-half times the total

rate for state government. As in the previous year, this occupation reported by far the most injuries and illnesses in

state government with 16 percent of the total. Police and sheriff’s patrol officers in state government had an increase

of 40 percent in the number of cases (4,170) from 2008. Their rate was 567 per 10,000 full-time workers.

 

Police and sheriff’s patrol officers had the highest number of cases with 31,300, an increase of 30 percent from 2008.

Their incidence rate was 676 per 10,000 full-time workers, which was over three-and-one-half times greater than the

incidence rate for all local government workers. Fire fighters had 13,900 cases in 2009 which was a decrease of 17

percent from 2008. Their incidence rate was 512 cases--over two-and-one-half times greater than the incidence rate for

all local government workers. These two occupations in public safety accounted for 23 percent of all days-away-from-work

cases in local government

 

Perhaps if other chemists or clab technicians had a propensity for violence and mayhem we could make a more accurate comparison.

Best wishes for a safe day whether on the street or in the lab.

 

 

[philbytx]

 

tsk-tsk Philby.

[David13]

Quote from Dave the Affable

//

Not just media, but when someone is murdered because of their public service, it "feels" very different. Certainly no less tragic than any other death.

//

 

I would like to consider myself affable too, but really I'm brutally honest.

There are two types of 'public service'. Those who get a paycheck, and those who don't.

And I consider the ones what get a paycheck as people doing a job. Nothing else.

It's a personal and voluntary decision to go into paid public service.

And getting killed on the job is an equal tragedy for anyone, not 'special' or 'heroic' for paid public service.

dc

[DaveTheAffable]

It's a personal and voluntary decision to go into paid public service.

And getting killed on the job is an equal tragedy for anyone, not 'special' or 'heroic' for paid public service.

dc

 

Ok.

 

Some people appreciate music. They are saddened when a musician dies. Some appreciate astronomy and are saddened when an astronomer dies. They might say it's a great loss. That does not denegrate lives lost by others.

 

Some appreciate law enforcement. They feel a loss. They express it. It does not bother me that you don't feel the same. But it would be nice if you or others didn't imply that there is something wrong with what some especially grieve over just because you don't.

 

[Mike]

There are two types of 'public service'. Those who get a paycheck, and those who don't. And I consider the ones what get a paycheck as people doing a job. Nothing else.

It's a personal and voluntary decision to go into paid public service. And getting killed on the job is an equal tragedy for anyone, not 'special' or 'heroic' for paid public service.

 

I couldn't disagree more, but maybe my experiences have been a bit different than yours. I've known a fair number of people who chose public service, in the form of military service, becoming an LEO, or a firefighter/paramedic, who did it because they wanted to live a life of service to others or to serve a greater cause. If someone gives their life in service to me, my family, my community or my nation, I'm apt to think that they deserve a little bit of recognition and gratitude.

[beemerman2k]

Some appreciate law enforcement. They feel a loss. They express it. It does not bother me that you don't feel the same. But it would be nice if you or others didn't imply that there is something wrong with what some grieve over just because you don't.

 

Very well put

 

I think it is very significant for all of us when an LEO is killed on the job. That LEO is the face of our society and our government. Their presence, paid or not, is what enables us to get on a crazy 2 wheeled machines and actually ride amist 2 ton cars and N ton 18 wheelers without undue fear for our lives. For the most part, everyone behaves themselves out of respect (or fear) of the LEO and the consequences they bring to bear to those who disregard the law and/or the requirements of safe driving.

 

So when the danger level of being an LEO rockets upwards, it concerns all of us -- especially motorcyclists, but all of us in gneneral. To the degree we care about our own safety, and the safety of our loved ones, we cannot take the lives and willingness of the LEO community to do their jobs, even for pay, for granted.

 

How much money would it take for you to be willing to do their job? They cannot offer me enough. No thanks. So to those willing to put on the badge and the uniform -- thank you very very much!

[Twisties]

It's a personal and voluntary decision to go into paid public service.

And getting killed on the job is an equal tragedy for anyone, not 'special' or 'heroic' for paid public service.

dc

 

Ok.

 

Some people appreciate music. They are saddened when a musician dies. Some appreciate astronomy and are saddened when an astronomer dies. They might say it's a great loss. That does not denegrate lives lost by others.

 

Some appreciate law enforcement. They feel a loss. They express it. It does not bother me that you don't feel the same. But it would be nice if you or others didn't imply that there is something wrong with what some especially grieve over just because you don't.

 

I don't think he said anything of the sort Dave. Please take another look.

[DaveTheAffable]

Jan,

 

The OP expressed some sadness over some deaths.

 

Five posts later, you turned it into something very different, and even commented you had your flame suit on. How nice of you to step in now to bat cleanup.

 

Forgive me for attempting to turn the thread back towards the original post. Sadness over some lives lost.

 

Outside of some pm's, I'm done with this thread.

 

[Ken H.]

First, I’m not trying to downplay the sadness of the quoted loss of lives that started this thread, nor do I think Jan is either.

 

I think the only point was to try to put a bit of perspective around the media hype associated with it, not the incidents themselves. At least that’s my intent.

 

“Public service” James is such an ambiguous term it can be applied to most any occupation. Your sentence modified like this is just as valid – “To the degree we care about our own safety, and the safety of our loved ones, we cannot take the lives and willingness of the chemist community to do their jobs, even for pay, for granted.”

 

Heck, I’m a software development PM in the heath care industry. Seemingly quite removed from the “public service” sector. But guess what, if we screw up and some software we wrote crashes/malfunctions and jeopardizes lives, better believe everyone cares about the safety of loved ones it effects, and no one should take for granted my teams’ willingness to do their jobs correctly.

 

Indeed, fill in most any occupation – “To the degree we care about our own safety, and the safety of our loved ones, we cannot take the lives and willingness of the ________ community to do their jobs, even for pay, for granted.”

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Ken, I get that, I just don't buy it, that's all.

 

I'll gladly assume the risks of a software developer (what do you know, I am a software developer!) or a chemist or the average "public servant". Gladly! Pay, bennies, low pressure environment, what's not to like?

 

Just don't ask me to pull over some car to hand someone a speeding ticket. No way am I approaching that car unless I have on full body armor and one of those highly powerful rapid fire machine guns with a line of ammo about 30 yards long. Anything out of the expected happen and it's fireworks for the next 5 minutes. I'll ticket whatever is still alive after that :smirk:

 

If I mess up, I might cause damage to someone. So, too, with the chemist. But consider the LEO's whose death's promted this thread: what occupational risks do you and I ever take that puts our lives on the line like theirs was?!? What did they do, other than their jobs, to contribute to their fate? How can one in all good conscience compare their office or lab work risk with what these people do everyday?

 

I get the idea, I just strongly disagree that's all.

[Marty Hill]

So sad that the highly opinionated "experts" find the need to screw up a thread like this.

[Mike]

So sad that the highly opinionated "experts" find the need to screw up a thread like this.

 

Yes, it seems that we thrive on contrariness, doesn't it?

[Rphoto]

Pretty unreal. Hopefully, a statistical aberration and not a trend.

 

[Rant]January to date same as last January, and on track for the same kind of year, according to:

 

This Piece.

 

Just the media making hay over a precinct storming, as best I can tell, and LEOs whining for more money, if you read the piece.

 

With 800,000 LEOs in the US (Reference) and 162 killed a year in the line of duty (Edit: Reference in the first link, above) the death rate is moderate compared to other occupations.

 

For instance:

 

As with the previous year, the four occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2007 were fishers and related fishing workers with a fatality rate of 111.8 per 100,000 workers, logging workers (86.4 per 100,000), aircraft pilots and flight engineers (66.7 per 100,000), and structural iron and steel workers (45.5 per 100,000).

(Reference)

 

The LEO rate of 162 in 800,000 works out to 20.3 per 100,000. LEOs don't even make the top ten. (Reference)

 

Mind you, I am not suggesting that LEOs be any less vigilant, or that their jobs aren't tough, or that we fail to adequately supply and train them. Of course every occupational death is a tragedy.

 

But I do get a bit tired of the false impression that LEOing is so risky, and so heroic.

 

With today's headlines bleating out about a war on police, when in fact nothing out of line with normal has occurred, I've pretty much boiled over.[/rant]

 

Edit: Sharon told me to put the flame suit on I've got it all ready to go! ))

 

Statistics mean nothing to those who are affected by these outrageous attacks on our police officers. My son is an officer in the St. Petersburg Department and two of his fellow officers/friends are dead. The amount of grief being experienced by the families, other officers and their families is tremendous. It is a heroic and dangerous job. It is routine in that department and other city police forces to be always risking danger --never know where it might come from. My son is also in the Florida Guard and is currently deployed with a Special Forces Unit in Afghanistan. He feels safer there than when on patrol in St. Petersburg where it is common to have draw a weapon, chase and tackle suspects and to use physical contact to restrain persons being arrested.

 

To somehow diminish this risk is demeaning and wrong.

 

 

[bendbill]

CNN's online article echoes the stated position of Dave the Affable and beemerman2k--and most people in a democracy, namely that the intentional murder of a police officer or other public employee is an offense against all of us. As one professor put it, murdering those who protect us leaves society angry and fearful.

 

More: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/25/police.officers.shot/

 

 

 

 

[David13]

Yes, it is funny, how there are people who consider themselves "experts" and who know that their point of view is the only acceptable point of view.

Just a shame that not all of them know who they are.

dc

 

[beemerman2k]

OK, everyone has their own opinion. We don't need to start a "who's right" war or anything.

 

Regardless of what your view is, I think we're all united in our sorrow for the loss of the lives that prompted this thread, and we all express our own appreciation for LEO's and other public servants in our own way.

 

Let's just leave it at that.

[Skywagon]

I'm not sure I can explain this and won't enter in some of the other discussions...but for me when I hear of the death of a LEO, Judge, Teacher, Firefighter and most of all military it tugs at my heart strings more than anything else.

 

In the generation and the value system I grew up in, we were taught to respect all life and of course that makes any death a tragedy. The professions above were of the most respected, the most protected, the people we looked up to, the people that when something did happen it stunned the country.

 

I live in Houston where murder is an everyday occurence. It happens so often it doesn't even make the news. When a LEO is killed in the line of duty, it does make the news...I am glad it does. Regardless of statistics quoted, if it happens at all it is a tragedy.

 

 

[upflying]

Trends indicate LEO deaths appear to be on the rise.

http://www.nleomf.org/newsroom/news-releases/alarming-rise-in-2010-law.html

 

[Bud]

As the OP, I am surprised at the response.

[MarkyP]

Bud,

 

As a new member of the board I'm saddened by how your comments became a springboard for those who minimize the service of public servants. Many of us do our jobs because its the right thing to do, certainly not for the pay. Thanks for your recognition and your intentions. Be safe all.

[DavidEBSmith]

Trends indicate LEO deaths appear to be on the rise.

http://www.nleomf.org/newsroom/news-releases/alarming-rise-in-2010-law.html

 

I'm not all that impressed with the data in that report - the overall number of deaths is a relatively small number, with a great deal of normal fluctuation from year to year. You could have just as easily looked at that data and said something wonderful happened between 2007 and 2009 because the number of LEOs killed plunged from nearly 200 to 117.

 

I'm concerned more with the nature of the attacks on police officers than on the numbers. This year in Chicago, we've had two off-duty officers killed in street robberies in front of their homes after the IDed themselves as police, an officer killed as he walked out of a police station, and an officer killed as he was collecting evidence at a crime scene. Also, according to this article, batteries against officers are way up, which doesn't get as much attention as killings. When an officer is killed in a gun battle trying to arrest an offender, or busting down a door to serve a warrant, or responding to a call, you can understand that it's something that happens on the job. The more recent attacks here (and the one in Detroit) exhibit utter contempt for police and government authority and power. It's as if the bad guys don't have any worries about going up against the police. The article above talks about shortages of police on the street, which may be part of it, but I think the issue is more the cold-blooded, fearless nature of these attacks. Many bad guys clearly don't think the police pose any threat to them, and that's dangerous for all of us.

[philbytx]

quote

Many bad guys clearly don't think the police pose any threat to them, and that's dangerous for all of us.

unquote

 

Sadly, I agree and that is exactly why one should be a well trained CHL holder.

[leikam]

I see this discussion happening on two levels.

 

On the one hand, there is the role of police officer as protector of law and order; when someone in this highly symbolic role is killed, it's easy to see it as a strike against society. Personalizing that threat, it's understandable that it would stir the emotions in a way that the death of a chemist or tortilla maker does not.

 

On the other hand, we can focus on the individual who chose a job in law enforcement. At this level, we see somebody who generally knew the risks, accepted them and got enough satisfaction to get up every day and make a living as a cop. We can speculate about individual motivations here but the pay rate seems clearly uncompelling. As an individual, their death is a human tragedy on par with anybody else's.

 

To somebody who deeply values the role and recognizes that he would not individually thrive in it, it's easy to see the job as a sacrifice. To somebody who values it less, it's easy to focus on the individual perspective and see an officer's death as a personal tragedy but largely par for the mortal course of the world. What's the proper value to place on this role? Here I think men and women of good faith can disagree.