Missing exit points

[leikam]

On most corners, I can spot or anticipate an exit point and see a line that will take me there. Sometimes I'm wrong and the corner keeps going, but then I readjust and either hold an outside line waiting for the turn-in or make a couple corners out of it. But occasionally, particularly in the mountains, I can be looking and waiting for that exit to appear when suddenly the road simply opens up. The exit point is not just around the bend. Instead, it's hundreds of feet down the road.

 

When this happens, I end up feeling somewhat shortchanged because I've missed the "ah, there it is" moment. On ordinary corners where I do see the exit, I typically roll on the throttle once I know where I'm going. But in these corners where the road just opens unexpectedly, I don't. I'm left holding the bag and often feel it's not worth the trouble of accelerating. I'm already through the turn and I just cruise on to the next corner.

 

Does this happen to other people? Are some roads just like that or am I failing to see something?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Michael,

My guess is your not staying focused on the 'vanishing point'. Rather you are looking a bit short of that. If you stay on the VP, all turns open up like magic and that's where the exit lies.

 

I know about the being fooled by a longer than expected turn thing, especially if I have been pushing and hard on the gas for awhile. Just kinda ease back to a maintenance throttle, you shouldn't be all the way to the apex yet as really, the apex is defined by the exit point, so you just can kinda cruise around till more is revealed.

 

I too hate it when a turn just kinda stops. An increasing radius, if you will. Here I am, all set to hold my line, tires vibrating a bit as their edges fight for grip and the damn turn just stops! Where is the thrill of that perfectly strafed apex? How am I gonna enjoy the drive out of the corner? The corner is gone. It does happen. Just don't ever plan on it on an unfamiliar road.

[itroop]

You can always make a long turn into a double apex. Twice the fun.

[leikam]

I think I'm pretty good about staying with the vanishing point, especially when I'm riding well and feeling focused. It's probably worth paying more attention to, but I also like your explanation of the increasing radius turn. That may just be what I'm seeing.

[rdfrantz]

Oh yeah, Michael. I really hate that. I'm THWARTED!!

 

To me the feeling is, "Oh sh**. I'm a gear too high." At the point I realize the road is opening, I could have been accelerating much more vigorously up to that point, and when there, could be taking advantage of the (apparent) increasing radius, and be really screaming out of there for the next corner - with zero liability to Wellbeing.

 

Part of that circumstance, for me, is I ride at least a gear higher than my fellows. Were I a gear lower in those circumstances, I could "save at least half the day" with that strong accelleration. But, alas, The First Mistake, makes the second one of wrong gear choice almost inevitable.

 

What's the First Mistake? I can't say with authority for anyone else, so I'll just offer how I personally get caught out.

 

On Angeles Forest Highway, north of The Bridge, the road offers a series of mostly regular corners, most blind, that one could motor through, though briskly, at a steady speed of 60 mph. Then the offered corners vary a bit between 85 and 65 mph. Then, "the road opens up"; Corners can be taken at 80, I run 90, and I'll squeeze through some at 100 "just to keep my hand in". About four corners in this last mess, half-blind left handers, call for me to drop to fourth gear, use a wide decreasing and decelerting entry, and cut across the apex of the decreasing radius exit. Russell kicks himself for misreading these guys and being in the wrong place (on the inside) at the wrong speed (pokey to handle the sharp radius), and chokes venom as I accellerate away STARTING with 20 mph in hand.

 

Problem is ONE of the presented corners looks just like these guys. However, the blinding hillside on the left hides only the exit point - there is NO decreasing radius; The corrner is much shorter in "miles traveled" than the others had been. I can stay in fifth gear pulling up from 90 mph through it on the FJR, feeling and looking like an Old Hand out on the back side of the Isle of Mann. God, I miss Joey.

 

All the cues call to set up as for the others, outside, creeping around long radius, gradually slowing to the speed that allows the dip in and across the short radius apex -- which never comes. For a year, I ended up like Michael, Holding The Bag, look of chagrin on face, poking for a downshift, and swearing I'd mark that corner and next time just Dip and Fly, holding 90 in Top Gear (and REALLY pi** off Russell ).

 

Finally, I do recognize that corner within the context of the sequence. But, hey guys!! I'm only successful here because I KNOW the road... now.

 

I stopped a few weeks ago well before entry to this Stumper, looking for some clues about its true nature. There are none. Given the mindset one learns to develop from the other corners, this one is going to fool us.

 

Are we thus doomed to failure? Perhaps. And, if so, I don't think we should take it so hard. I've ridden over 400,000 miles of Sport Touring across mountains everywhere in the US. Ten, twenty, or forty corners that I don't "at least break even on" is not, and should not be, "Devastating to My Riding Self Image". Nor yours.

 

Remember, we SURVIVED!!! We erred on THE SURVIVAL SIDE.

 

Think about those poor sods wh0 err the other way: They became... Statistics. WE are not, this time, Statistics.

 

But, what to do? Can we Ride Better? I think so.

 

In my case, the stated circumstances, I got far too Clever with those magic four corners - Far too clever riding for SPORT TOURING. What I was doing was maximizing pace through more of a Sport Rider's, ah, Local Knowledge.

 

Yes, those corners did give clues -- but not certainties -- about the possibility of holding a wide lead-in to a more closed radius Calling them decreasing radius corners is an error: They were DUAL APEX/DUAL RADIUS CORNERS.

 

First time across that road and encountering those corners, we have a "standard set-up", a middle of the road (literally) speed, turn-in, and power-up method, accepting we don't know if the exit point will be left or right of (moderate) Line. If Exit is wide we power up; Tight and we roll off, roll in, grab a gear and power out with smoothness rather than brutality.

 

If The Nemisis were approached that way -- MODERATELY -- we'd (not in the "clever" manner) carry a bit more speed up to turn-in, see across it identifuy it as single radius at almost the sme time, and power on out, moderately.

 

Doing that, our actual exit speed wouldn't be much greater than our more "clever" but wrong approach. However, COMPARED TO THE UN-CLEVER HANDING OF THE OTHER CORNERS, we'd be at the same PACE as those. It would seem like were were more UNIFORM in our results with that section of road.

 

When doing Sport Touring, that "unexiting" regularness if not uniformity is really what were after -- trying to get across Unknown Roads, with style, grace, and alacrity, eschewing Outright Speed in favor of Wellbeing accompanied by satifying Pace.

 

Does that method solve the probleml, Michael? I don't think it really changes that we are led to less than optimum handlings. But, the perspective removes the sence of ERROR. Slower is not an error... if one is not trying so hard.

 

"Trying Hard" is something to resever for Known Roads. Unknown or Less Known have their own appropriate, but different handling.

 

 

Best wishes, buddy.

[russell_bynum]

Oh hell yeah...happens to me all the dang time.

 

On one hand, it's frustrating because, as you said, there's really no point in accelerating hard because the turn is already basically over.

 

On the other hand, if I was going "too slow" at turn-in, it was probably because I couldn't see what was going on.

 

I've had way too many “brown moments” (Thanks Wurty, for coining that term) on Ortega Highway, a road I know VERY well, where I'll let my good sense wander off and start riding at a pace that I know is appropriate for the corners. The problem is, while the pace is appropriate for the corners, it is most certainly not appropriate for the site lines. I can't tell you how many times I've come around a corner at a comfortable 7/10ths speed only to find traffic at a dead stop...and I realize that I'm now at 10/10ths to stay alive.

 

So...I accept that I'll be too slow on turns like that, which appear to be tighter than they really are. But I'm not likely to go back and ride a road with lots of "those" corners again because that's not conducive to the way I like to ride.

[Spike]

I HATE this. If I had a quarter for every time that I read a corner, entered it, and then realized that I was 15 MPH slower than necessary and way off of my desired acceleration rate Id have a garage for every bike. I sometimes wonder what I as a rider can do better to read corners.

 

I followed Baker and Voodoo at EP and the one thing that they really impressed on me is that they seem to read the road better, or, are more comfortable with a higher entry speed when given certain visual cues. To me the latter is acceptable as everyone's skill, ability, and risk judgement is better. The former however is not acceptable to me as road reading in my mind is very much a learned item via experience, practice, and desire. What I find hard is figuring out which one it is on any given turn.

 

So, when I experience a corner like this, especially after following someone who roasted me, not because I couldn't physically do it, but because I mentally chose not to (ala Russell & Dick) I get frustrated and feel like I "lost" the corner for no reason.

 

-- Spike

[Ken H.]

I followed Baker and Voodoo at EP and the one thing that they really impressed on me is that they seem to read the road better,

Yeah, which reminds me, what ever happened to that "Road Reading Skills" module you guys were going to put together?

[Spike]

Uh, things came up *snicker*. Its still in progress. Speaking of which I think I need to start looking at dates for a spring Ride Smart in my area.

[leikam]

Thanks for the thoughts Dick. You know the roads that catch me out well.

 

And, yes, my goal is to get on "with style, grace, and alacrity, eschewing Outright Speed in favor of Wellbeing accompanied by satifying Pace." My hope in posting this was not to try harder or even to take a known set of corners better, but to see better. I don't feel compelled to optimize every corner, even on known roads, but it is helpful to know how others approach (and exit) them.

[MattS]

I don't feel compelled to optimize every corner...

Someone get this man some counseling ... quick!

[leikam]

Spike, why do you feel you "lost" the corner when you decided not to up the pace? Who's ride are you riding here?

[Spike]

Spike, why do you feel you "lost" the corner when you decided not to up the pace? Who's ride are you riding here?

 

Mine. What I mean is that I lost the opportunity to ride the corner at a pace I would have prefered to ride it had I known its true character. I try to always err on the side of safety and getting home to ride another day. What I find frustrating is that I read corner X at 25MPH and upon entering it I realize I could have easily ridden it at 35 or 40 MPH within my given skill level. Im just referring to having lost that opportunity.

[leikam]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. When this happens -- you read a corner as being slower than it is -- what do you do to improve? In posting this thread, that was part of my hope: that I was just not seeing some aspect of these corners.

[beamergirl]

Uh, things came up *snicker*. Its still in progress. Speaking of which I think I need to start looking at dates for a spring Ride Smart in my area.

 

[BWS]

Sounds like you're describing a "Bend" instead of a turn or tighter yet......a corner.

 

At some point you'll easily be able to fly through any sort of turn......the question then simply becomes,should you?Theres many ways to practice however,once the speed no longer suffices to entertain.One of my favorites is how short in time and distance can you make the "critical zone"?

That is either at full lean(if theres zero traffic)or in the line of fire so to speak WRT "incoming"(dipsh*t linecrossers).Taking the lean angle example.....how,or maybe that should be stated where,does your bike prefer to be in the critical zone?Early or later in the turn.And remember this ain't about max speed.Now,if you changed bikes can you predict where it prefers to be at max lean before riding?Why?Is it that the two bikes are inherently different or can it be sumthin as simple as susp. setup?Where and how does tyre temp figure in?

[JerryMather]

Someone explain in detail the "Vanishing Point" while in a turn to me please?

[Voodoo]

Someone explain in detail the "Vanishing Point" while in a turn to me please?

 

Jerry,

 

It's actually very easy in concept, but difficult mentally in practice. It refers to the point at which the two edges of the road converge in the distance. If you visualize a horizon with no foliage or anything to block the sides of the road, the vanishing point is as far as you can see down the road - where the two sides of the road become a point. As the road turns, that vanishing point moves right or left in direct proportion to how sharp the turn is. It also gives visual cues on whether the turn's radius is tightening, or opening up. In a decreasing radius turn, the vanishing point appears to be doubling back towards you while in an increasing radius turn, it appears to be moving farther away from you.

 

In a real-world situation, you can't always see the proverbial vanishing point due to things along the road that cut down on your vision, but you can always see the "end" of the road - which provides the same visual cues, just without as much warning as a best-case scenario.

 

The trick is to focus on the vanishing point as much as possible to gain as much time/insight into what the road is doing and therefore what you are doing with your line/throttle/brakes, etc.

 

Again, it;s a simple concept, but then you try and put it into practice, it takes a lot of mental strength and confidence to trust your peripheral vision to where you are now in the road and focus your attention point way down the road.

 

When you can do that however, you never feel like you are falling "behind" the bike/road. You are truly leading the bike with your intention and actions. Lines become smoother because you are working on a larger plan of attack and you very rarely get surprised by the corner.

[JerryMather]

How does this apply on Mt's roads that have multiple tight turns where there seems to be no vanishing points and your running at about 80 - 90 MPH.

I can understand this while your on a road that is a sweeper type, like in Torrey but it's hard for me to grab this concept and/or see a vanishing point when I'm in the tighter stuff at speed.

There's no way the two fog lines come together in the tight stuff as I see it when I'm on this type of road.

[Voodoo]

How does this apply on Mt's roads that have multiple tight turns where there seems to be no vanishing points and your running at about 80 - 90 MPH.

I can understand this while your on a road that is a sweeper type, like in Torrey but it's hard for me to grab this concept and/or see a vanishing point when I'm in the tighter stuff at speed.

There's no way the two fog lines come together in the tight stuff as I see it when I'm on this type of road.

 

There's always a vanishing point. Whether it's where the edges of the road disappear in the distance, or where the road tucks behind a hill or tree, the end of the road (the farthest point you can see) is the vanishing point. The same rules apply - decreasing radius=vanishing point coming closer, etc. - your distance to decision just might be much shorter on a hilly/mountain road than in big open sweepers.

 

The vanishing point below, is where the road disappears behind the trees to the left.

 

 

If this corner had a decreasing radius after the trees, as you progressed through it, focusing on the vanishing point the whole time, as the corner reveals itself past the trees, the end of the road would appear to be coming back at you. If it were opening up, and increasing in radius, the vanishing point would move farther away from you, which is your cue to get on the gas earlier if that's your plan and open up your corner for your exit point.

[russell_bynum]

The trick is to focus on the vanishing point as much as possible

 

Just a minor point...I think "focus" is a dangerous word. You want your eyes pointed at the vanishing point, but you want to keep your vision as wide as possible (Code's "Wide Screen" drill) and shift your attention around wher ever it needs to be within that "wide screen" realm.

 

To me, "focus" indicates a narrow field of view, and target fixation.

[rdfrantz]

Very well described, David.

 

Jerry, some help to your second question about "tight roads".

 

The Vanishing Point should not be one's sole focus, where one focusus down to only a single point. That's why I find some "danger" in describing the visual phenomenon as a vanishing point.

 

Remember, Keith Code's "Wide Angle View", or some such. It's refering to being able to see "the entire television screen" that's being cast onto "the back of our eye balls". That Entire View is always there. However, sometimes, and often in stimulous-response perhaps to danger, and also from "learning" in response to Genralizations to "focus", "pay attention", we dimiinsh our attention to the entire available scene, and "focus" on a lesser portion of it.

 

Actually, and we learned this by trainning people to do it, we have a kind of attention bank. When we are seeing "the big picture" our personal fortune of attention is fairly evenly distributed to taking in (being mindfull, contemplating, using as data for caluclation) all of the visually prsented "datums". "Focus", in this context, is our ability to direct some, mostly, or all of our attention to a portion of the larger avaiable image: Perhaps manifest sometimes as Tunnel Vision, or Fixation - like Target Fixation.

 

"Vanishing Point" is something that should be "Watched", rather than gain the focus of our entire Attenion fortune. In many circumstances it might be best to give primary attention to it, but also to give some attention to "sweeping the roadway", Looking about, not for obstacles and computing about them; Feeling for any change in velocity; Feeling and seeing any changes in lean angle; Seeing any diversions from our chosen line; Feeling tire traction and suspension action; And, perhaps some other worthy "datums" to use to compute "How well is this going?" Vanishing point should never be a sole focus.

 

Contrary to Davids very accurate descriptions, speaking of "effectively", not "truthfully", Vanishing Point may not exist in certain cicumstances. Six tight corners, all fully visible, laid out over less than a quarter mile, may get our attention "scoped down" so that "the horizon" is not "attentively visible". It may exist, but in response to the presented problem we shall not see it. But, even in this limited view, there is a "road's end in that view". But, again, we may not be aware of it, be mindful of it, direct much attention to it.

 

We're looking at six corners. We're computing how we are going to traverse them -- and do so in the order 1, 2, 3, 4.... and not be able, yet to apply ourselves to handling #6, over where the "limited" Vanishing Point does reside. Our own personal fortune of Attention has been "loaned out" by the time we spread it across the corners and reach the fourth one. It's thereby, that the Vanishing Point does not exist: It has no effect upon what we are going to be able to engage ourselves in... at this point in time.

 

How to handle the six corners? Well, do it one at a time, but also "in series".

 

Start at the end - the sixth corner. Scan back to you across the roadway. Just look, openly, not "for something", and see what six, then five, then four, then three, then two, then one Have To Offer - in terms of "data".

 

At the end of that, most fresh in your mind will be Corner One. Scan forward through it for "angle in", apex, exit point, and on to do the same thing for Corner Two, and also Corner Three if you can handle it before you also need to be braking, turning, adjusting speed for corner one. Find those Exit Points, and your "trained machine" will be computing arcs, lean angles and speeds, that you apply yourself to doing, and monitorying as you pass successively through each corner.

 

In Corner One, as Appex is reached and Exit Point assured, look up at Corner Two and Corner Three, and reaffirm their three definition and action points, compute corner two and execute it. Same with each arising corner.

 

AT SOME POINT IN TIME, passing through this series of corners, there in accordance with "Voodoo's Truth", Vanishing Point will appear (It was always there, but only now is our Attention directable to it), and as part of that "last corner", we will watch it's progress toward or away from us, seeking to see and then compute reaching that corner's Exit Point.

 

Simple, huh?

 

Really, it is. It all happens in "the blink of an eye". Almost all of us are doing that, somewhat or mostly, as depicted. How we get better at handling "a six corner set", is to work out, exactly, how we direct our Attention, or "Where we should be looking" (in accordance with that great driver and superb Instructor, Bertil Roos). Then "train up" doing it. And then "practicing" it the rest of our Riding Career.

 

Best wishes.

[Mike O]

Excellent thread...

 

Riding in our mountains I struggle with this constantly. I never really thoought about 'Vanishing Points' but mostly because I tend to concentrate on so many other things (apex, road conditions, traffic, etc.) And then there is the general 'tight-ness' of turns in the areas I frequent (I don't get the opportunity to open it up even in the 60's that much). I don't get the luxury of riding something like 'Sweeper Madness', so will have to find a more appropriate place to practice 'Vanishing Points'.

 

Having said that, once an exit point is missed, is there a safe recovery for it?

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

 

P.S. David, this thread really should go in the Ride Well Revival...

[rdfrantz]

Missed Exit Point?

 

"Did you miss it "High", "Low", "Fast", or "Slow"? Or some Combination, or do you have some other feeling about how it was "missed" (versus Why, which has it's own "solutions").

 

A "high" miss means you've gone wide and are about to leave the roadway. You know what to do about this right?

 

"DETERMINE COME HELL, HIGH WATER, AND NO MATTER HOW IT LOOKS TO YOU RIGHT NOW, YOU are GOING TO RIDE OVER THE EXIT POINT AND BEYOND IT!!! So, [/b]first, get your attention back on Exit Point. Then, lean the bike more. And/Or apply prudent quanties if first rear then also front braking. Slide your body further off the seat to the inside of the turn.

 

Understand that "Fast" has you doing the above, but Brake Application should come first and receive priority. "Fast" and "High" are much the same - physically. The sense of High has us feeling we are not turning as much as we need to, and thus not being leaned as much as we need to be. Fast has us considering we're pretty much at the lean angle we (erroneously) decided upon, and perhaps are (overly) comfortable using.

 

High means we should "break the spell" and get the darned bike leaned over and turning. Slowing may also be a help.

 

Fast means we feel it might be difficult to lean the bike against such Momentum. Lean it anyway, but certainly get Velocity back under your sense of control.

 

Low and Slow are opposites to High and Fast. With Low, I always make myself, make myself, make the bike ride over Exit Point. Well almost always. There are cases where Next Corner would be more easily handled if I just crept back on over to the other edge of the roadway now. I "force" reaching Exit Point because that's what and where I decided I'd be prior to entering this corner. This is training myself to maintain my resolve. It's how I train myself to never flinch from "going after Exit Point"... especailly when I've ended up High or Fast. It's how I train myself to always Win... and keep at it until my very last breath.

 

Slow is just a disappointment (where slow is less than my expected or determined relative velocity). Going faster than I wanted, is in Reality "Fast", even when the corner turns out to have allowed and even higher velocity.

 

All these things, sanely, must be relative to Your Own Determination. That's the best way to look upon them, for that contains tools for controlling them... that in fact are absent with the still good advice, "Ride your own Ride".

 

All of these are Errors In Judgement. If you survive them, and usually you will slow your pace for a second or so and make note as best you can of what you saw before entry, and what you thought about it. Then, stop soon, and go over those perceptions and thoughts. Work out what you didn't see or look for, what you didn't expect or understand. Now, fold those into your Method, the computational method you use as part of PLANNING OUT EVERY CORNER BEFORE YOU ENTER IT !!!

 

If you are not planning out every corner, then you are not "Riding your own Ride": You are riding The Gods' Ride, or Mother Natures, or your old riding coaches, or some riding authors. Huh?

 

Best wishes.

[JerryMather]

Very well described, David.

 

Jerry, some help to your second question about "tight roads".

 

Contrary to Davids very accurate descriptions, speaking of "effectively", not "truthfully", Vanishing Point may not exist in certain cicumstances. Six tight corners, all fully visible, laid out over less than a quarter mile, may get our attention "scoped down" so that "the horizon" is not "attentively visible".

 

This is the point I was trying to point out. Looking for the vanishing point when in a series of turns is not something I'm doing at speed. I'm first scanning the first turn making the correct adjustments to get through it and looking for the place that I want to be in order to enter the next turn. The vanishing point only comes into play for me on the last tight turn at the apex when I can really start to screw down the throttle.

At that point my buddies are already two of three turns ahead of me and I won't catch up to them until they've stopped or slowed down for traffic.

My entering speed is obviously much slower than their's. I find that inputs are happening so quickly and I can only process them so fast. My buddies being younger, seem to do this a lot better than I.

 

Thanks guys for the explanation.

[Voodoo]

This is the point I was trying to point out. Looking for the vanishing point when in a series of turns is not something I'm doing at speed. I'm first scanning the first turn making the correct adjustments to get through it and looking for the place that I want to be in order to enter the next turn. The vanishing point only comes into play for me on the last tight turn at the apex when I can really start to screw down the throttle.

At that point my buddies are already two of three turns ahead of me and I won't catch up to them until they've stopped or slowed down for traffic.

My entering speed is obviously much slower than theirs. I find that inputs are happening so quickly and I can only process them so fast. My buddies being younger, seem to do this a lot better than I.

 

Jerry,

 

At the risk of opening up a can of worms here, I think you've defined the problem fairly well. If you are taking it turn by turn, you are by definition, getting too far behind in the process, which makes things seem to happen way too quickly and makes processing actions and decisions all that more difficult.

 

It is even more important to look for the vanishing point in a series of turns. The farthest most point that you can comfortably look ahead for should determine your line and inputs throughout the series of turns. In the picture below (the best I could find - I know not a true series, but just bear with me), if you are setting up for the first corner and not worrying about the second one until you are part way through the first, you are WAYYY off line for the second. And, this effect multiplies itself when you add another corner after that and so on.

 

 

You need to look as far ahead as possible to set up your line for a series of turns because the line and inputs to the bike may need to be radically different based on a series than if it is for only the next corner.

 

To add a little personal input, I am often looking in a very different direction than my bike is traveling. If I am in a series of corners, although I may be leaned hard into a right hander, my point of focus (meaning where I am paying attention, not the "only" thing I am looking at) may be way left and ahead of the corner that I am currently in. I am already in that corner mentally even though I haven't physically finished the one I am in now. It's the only way to not get behind when the corners get tight and frequent and your speed is anything more than casual.

 

I know it's hard to convince yourself to really look farther ahead than you are. Trusting your peripheral vision is critical - but once you try it (and it will feel weird and unsettling until you get used to it) the world just seems to slow down and you find yourself much smoother and flowing and that exit point just gets clearer and clearer until you've already forgotten about it because in your head, your already past it.

[JerryMather]

I find that I'm relaying on my memory of the next turn and use that info. to set my position for it. I do think about the next turn but it's usually as I'm exiting the last one.

I really need to work on correcting this because on new roads I don't have the info. needed so my speeds are reduced accordingly.

[Voodoo]

I find that I'm relaying on my memory of the next turn and use that info. to set my position for it. I do think about the next turn but it's usually as I'm exiting the last one.

 

That's a real handicap. Try working on raising your focal point on the roads you're familiar with as practice. You can even work on it in a car as well. But I think you've pretty much self-diagnosed here. The more you look up, the slower the world goes. Good luck.

[rdfrantz]

(Jerry) The vanishing point only comes into play for me on the last tight turn at the apex when I can really start to screw down the throttle.

At that point my buddies are already two of three turns ahead of me and I won't catch up to them until they've stopped or slowed down for traffic.

My entering speed is obviously much slower than their's. I find that inputs are happening so quickly and I can only process them so fast. My buddies being younger, seem to do this a lot better than I.

I'd say you are trying to process too much data.

Part of the reason can be that you do not already have a Simple Plan (that is effective).

Part of the reason can be not defining the corner(s) in Simple Terms - of fewer Aspects, and fewer Points.

 

Imagine a series of four 25 mph, 60 degree corners, linked with no straight road betweent them: Left, Right, Left, Right.

 

I have a (Alredy Defined) Plan for such things. Why?

(David) if you are setting up for the first corner and not worrying about the second one until you are part way through the first, you are WAYYY off line for the second. And, this effect multiplies itself when you add another corner after that and so on.

What's the Plan?

 

Ride a line from Outside to Inside for each one... except The Last (Which presents eithter a Vanishing Point or the view of a straight section of road). For the first Left, I set up outside and imagine an arc that will take me to a Chosen Point, the first Exit Point, that lays on the inside defining line ("The Yellow Line")... That also is Entry Point for the following Right. By doing this, I've simplified greatly. I've removed Apex One from "the scope of things to to be computed and monitored". I've actually removed Exit Point One from that same Scope that would call for my attention. If I had to name this "new kind of Point", I suppose I'd call it "The Transition Point".

 

Within Turn One, I only need to monitor that my speed and lean angle is going to take me to a Target, Transition Point, that I can see (or that I damned well KNOW is there and going to show up any second now as I pursue Vanishing Point's progress toward it). I've Simplified my Monitoring actions that I would do to reach Apex, and then, Exit Point.

 

At Transition Point, I again set speed and lean angle to an arc, now "automatically" starting at Outside, that leads me to a point at the Inside of Right, Turn Two: Transition Point Two.

 

This reduction, but also Strident, Demanding, Organization, frees up my attention to see road irregularities, impediments, obstacles, configuration changes, whatever the roadway is offering up, as I scan forward, seeking to find the best place to Set, and then Setting my future Targets - Transition Points.

 

With only these simple, few things to address, my attention is very free to take a "long look up ahead" and scan back from it = if I do not let myself get drug down, have my attention squandered, on Details about what I see about which I do not yet need to do anything. Keep the mind Clear. By "Keeping It Simple". Simply, draw in more (simple) data.

 

 

David also reveals a way to "Simplify" - and thus reduce "Mental Overload".

... I am often looking in a very different direction than my bike is traveling. If I am in a series of corners, although I may be leaned hard into a right hander, my point of focus (meaning where I am paying attention, not the "only" thing I am looking at) may be way left and ahead of the corner that I am currently in. I am already in that corner mentally even though I haven't physically finished the one I am in now.

David is describing in an advanced situation, how we need to be handling even the simplest one: That we look over our shoulder at our Target when we are going to make a U-turn. Yes, very basic, Totally Fundamental MSF Beginning Rider Course Stuff -- that far, far, far too many Riders skip over, or discard as "unimportant".

 

Decide to ride over a Point, then ride over it.

 

Look "Over There" to Find the damned Point - Not "go where you look".

 

Having Found (computed) a good point to ride over -- Decide to and then ride over it, Simultaneously seeking out (looking for) a really good Next Point. If you've also been scanning ahead with the "time" you've gained by Simplifying Point/Arc/Ride games, a likely candidate to become Decided where you're going to ride will have - already - been presented. Simply, make friends with it again, and Decide, "Hey! You da Man!!" Then go there.

 

 

The key to what I'm expressing is: Get your Fundamentals "In". First, be able to control the motorcycle. Be able to apply the fullest extent it offers of lean, braking, accelerating. Second, be able, have Experience, in combining those actions to produce specific kinds of Motion (Point and Shoot, Drop and Catch, Slide and Turn, Stop and Turn, etc, etc,). Third, Grow those Fundamental Motions into thinks like U-turns, sandy driveway entries and exits, Uphill Hair Pin Lunges, Pick-up and Brake, Lean Till You Scrape AND brake.

 

When you no longer need to "Think" about how to do those things, guess what? You have LOADS of attention to spend upon Road Reading, and Computing Interesting Ways to Get Across This Section Of Road. Particularly if you develop General Pre-plans, and Simplify Your Action Plan.

 

Best wishes.

[Bud]

Missed Exit Point?

 

"Did you miss it "High", "Low", "Fast", or "Slow"? Or some Combination, or do you have some other feeling about how it was "missed" (versus Why, which has it's own "solutions").

 

A "high" miss means you've gone wide and are about to leave the roadway. You know what to do about this right?

 

"DETERMINE COME HELL, HIGH WATER, AND NO MATTER HOW IT LOOKS TO YOU RIGHT NOW, YOU are GOING TO RIDE OVER THE EXIT POINT AND BEYOND IT!!! So, [/b]first, get your attention back on Exit Point. Then, lean the bike more. And/Or apply prudent quanties if first rear then also front braking. Slide your body further off the seat to the inside of the turn.

 

Understand that "Fast" has you doing the above, but Brake Application should come first and receive priority. "Fast" and "High" are much the same - physically. The sense of High has us feeling we are not turning as much as we need to, and thus not being leaned as much as we need to be. Fast has us considering we're pretty much at the lean angle we (erroneously) decided upon, and perhaps are (overly) comfortable using.

 

High means we should "break the spell" and get the darned bike leaned over and turning. Slowing may also be a help.

 

Fast means we feel it might be difficult to lean the bike against such Momentum. Lean it anyway, but certainly get Velocity back under your sense of control.

 

Low and Slow are opposites to High and Fast. With Low, I always make myself, make myself, make the bike ride over Exit Point. Well almost always. There are cases where Next Corner would be more easily handled if I just crept back on over to the other edge of the roadway now. I "force" reaching Exit Point because that's what and where I decided I'd be prior to entering this corner. This is training myself to maintain my resolve. It's how I train myself to never flinch from "going after Exit Point"... especailly when I've ended up High or Fast. It's how I train myself to always Win... and keep at it until my very last breath.

 

Slow is just a disappointment (where slow is less than my expected or determined relative velocity). Going faster than I wanted, is in Reality "Fast", even when the corner turns out to have allowed and even higher velocity.

 

All these things, sanely, must be relative to Your Own Determination. That's the best way to look upon them, for that contains tools for controlling them... that in fact are absent with the still good advice, "Ride your own Ride".

 

All of these are Errors In Judgement. If you survive them, and usually you will slow your pace for a second or so and make note as best you can of what you saw before entry, and what you thought about it. Then, stop soon, and go over those perceptions and thoughts. Work out what you didn't see or look for, what you didn't expect or understand. Now, fold those into your Method, the computational method you use as part of PLANNING OUT EVERY CORNER BEFORE YOU ENTER IT !!!

 

If you are not planning out every corner, then you are not "Riding your own Ride": You are riding The Gods' Ride, or Mother Natures, or your old riding coaches, or some riding authors. Huh?

 

Best wishes.

 

Master Yoda,

 

Mucking about looking for info to help me be a better rider and found this from you.

 

Last summer, riding a Honda Shadow 1100, I came to that corner and should, and could, have ridden it out. But, my inexperience caused me to look to the side of the road. You know the rest of the story w/o me even saying anything more.

 

The good news? I survived. The better news? My replacement ride is a BMW.

 

My thanks to you for taking the time to post that excellent advice.

 

While I am still not fast or smooth, I am improving.

 

Your advice should be posted as a "sticky" thread.

[rdfrantz]

My dear friend, Bud.

 

I hope you blush as I express my regard for you. I really want you to feel that blush and remember it always.

 

Thirty years ago, a man whose passing still saddens me today told me the basic part of the things you've quoted. When we parted that day, I leaned back against the saddle of my bike and watched him ride away. I said to myself kind of abstractly, "I wonder why he chose to tell me those things." I blushed terribly when I came to my answer.

 

So, I hope John Birdsall has made you blush today just as he made me blush back then. And, that you'll do about it something like I did in thanks.

 

But wait!! You did!!

 

Best wishes.