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Lack of Spending in Education


Ken H.

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expend.gif

 

And, According to the Department of Education we have been increasing the education budget consistently for decades. How can education be declining if we are spending ever more on it? Doesn't more spending = better outcome?

 

Can you find that data adjusted for population and inflation? I'd be curious to know how it looks then.

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Doesn't more spending = better outcome?

 

Steve, we are dealing with gov't here, so that is FAR too rational a thought to be true. As I said before you will find spending per pupil at roughly 50-75% higher in public schools than in private. My contention is that spending is, for political reasons, diverted from the bread and butter of teachers and students and instead directed at politically connected administrators who have neither the skill sets nor education to justify their heady salaries.

 

(And that chart is probably not adjusted for inflation or population).

 

-MKL

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Joe Frickin' Friday
I think if I read you correctly that we're both basically saying the same thing in different ways. I am saying the primary way a worker's job's importance is measured, for better or worse, is his salary.

 

I think we're not saying the same thing. If the mission of an entire organization is to be accomplished, and the mission fails if any one job doesn't get done, then all jobs (not the individuals who do those jobs, but the jobs themselves) are equally important to the success of the mission. Salary clearly does not define the importance of a job - unless you are using a different definition of "importance."

 

We as a society have decided for better or worse that the second biggest influences in our children's lives - assuming there are parents around to begin with, which isn't a great assumption - are worth a menial pay grade, equal to a cookie-cutter office position or a cashier at a department store. Does this not stir something inside you which screams, "WRONG!"

 

Further on in your post you point to a dearth of good teachers. If good teachers are indeed rare, AND if we want to employ more of those good teachers, then yes, that's a great reason to dangle bigger salaries out there. However, if the existing pool of teachers already is heavily populated with good ones, and it just rubs you the wrong way that they don't make more money than some other person whose occupation ranks low on your scale of social importance, then no, that's not a good reason to pay teachers more money.

 

 

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I think we're not saying the same thing. If the mission of an entire organization is to be accomplished, and the mission fails if any one job doesn't get done, then all jobs (not the individuals who do those jobs, but the jobs themselves) are equally important to the success of the mission. Salary clearly does not define the importance of a job - unless you are using a different definition of "importance."

 

There are a few assumptions there that are, to me, incorrect, chief among them is there is there one mission and that all job positions are equally important to the mission's success. A brain surgeon for example needs a clean room to operate in. Without a clean room, his mission of successful surgery cannot be accomplished. So you are saying both acts of cleaning the room and operating on the brain are important. I agree. I am going further by stating the obvious, that the pool of people qualified to clean the room is much larger than the pool of people qualified to operate on the brain. This, fundamentally above all else, is why the brain surgeon's salary is much higher than the room cleaner. Supply and demand.

 

In my analogy the admins are the room cleaners and the teachers the brain surgeons, yet are treated and paid as though the converse is true. This is the crux of my argument.

 

 

Further on in your post you point to a dearth of good teachers. If good teachers are indeed rare, AND if we want to employ more of those good teachers, then yes, that's a great reason to dangle bigger salaries out there.

 

That is precisely what I am saying. We can attract stronger, better teachers if we pay more than a menial salary. And to those who ask where the money comes from, I gladly point to the admins who pull in some 8-10x what a teacher pulls in when their private sector equivalents with equal or greater skill sets and responsibilities make a fraction of that amount. The money pool that pays both is the same finite pie.

 

-MKL

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Speaking from the personal experience in another public sector job, I can tell you beginning, entry level cops are the lowest paid and work the hardest. Rookies are young, energetic, idelaistic and possess strong work ethic for the pitance they receive. They are out to prove they have what it takes. All sign on knowing they have to put their time in the trenches and work their way up through the food chain to more choice assignments, seniority, pay grade increases and eventually cushy promotional opportunites.

I would guess teachers have a similar hierarchy. Longevity and seniority will eventually reward them. I would reckon administrators in school districts were teachers at one time.

After 15-20 years, cops promote to become administrators making three times the salary of the entry level cop. All administrators "paid their dues" on the street and now sit in air conditioned offices, pushing papers and driving take home cars. None of the police administrators work graveyard shifts, work holidays, deal with the scum of society, write tickets, make arrests or write reams of police reports. We pay administrators more to do less. Depends on what the definition of "less" is. That's the way it is.

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...do you really think an admin is worth $250k while the teacher who deals direct with the children is worth $30k?
You're quoting numbers here that you say support your position. However, I/we have no idea as you present them if you're comparing apples to apples because you haven't qualified your numbers. In this case:
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Uh, everyone should be required to go back and re-read this post until they fully understand its meaning.

 

Nice work, Michael.

 

Thanks Steve. Glad somebody read it.

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Three areas of spending make up over half of state spending, on average:

• K-12 education. States are one of the main funders of the nation’s public elementary and secondary schools, which some 50 million students — almost nine out of ten school-age children — attend. About one-fourth of state spending on average, or about $275 billion, goes toward public education. States generally provide grants to local school districts (or to cities or counties, where those entities are responsible for administering schools) to fund schools, rather than paying teacher salaries and other school costs directly.

 

Local governments are the other primary funder of public schools. The federal government pays less than 10 percent of public school costs.

• Higher education. States play a large role in funding higher education through their support of public community colleges, university systems, and vocational education institutions. This support accounts for about 12 percent of state spending, or some $130 billion.

The other 2 are Health and Transportation.

 

Where to start...

 

Since education is different in each state, and varies greatly intrastate also, there is no single entity called "education".

 

Those who would base teacher pay on "performance/proficiency" I ask you the following question.

How do you measure the proficiency of:

an Art teacher

a Drama teacher

a PE teacher

a Music teacher

please, enlighten me.

 

According to the US Gov't Bureau of Labor Statistics, May 2009, the median salary in the US was $43,460 for "all occupations".

 

In many areas teachers don't make that much even with advanced degrees and years of experience.

But, for many who choose to enter the field of education, salary isn't always the primary motivation.

Those of you who can't understand that most likely never will.

 

That same data shows much higher average salaries for many areas of "management".

Often those salaries are2-3 times higher than the average.

Personally I know it is harder to run a school than a business. YMMV.

 

Trying to compare different areas of the country wrt salaries for those in education is not going to provide much usable information.

 

This site will allow you to compare state by state, starting salaries, average salaries, and a "comfort" rating that factors wages/COL etc.

 

Federal law requires certain things to be done in "education", no way around that.

State laws require certain criteria to be components of the process.

 

"Changes in education" require statutory input on many levels.

 

Standardized testing is the current barometer, yet it is meaningless when comparing different parts of the country.

No two states administer the same test except for the national ones such as the SAT and ACT.

 

Nationally normed tests such as the SAT/ACT show results that can be compared to some extent.

There are states, including Florida, where students score at percentage XX on state derived exit tests and YY on nationally normed tests.

Other states have reported scores of XX + x% on their exit exams, so, their students must be more proficient, right?

Their teachers should get more $$, right?

And yet, when comparing those same students on nationally normed tests, there are cases where the XX students outperform the XX + x% students.

How could that be?

 

We are heading towards a national curriculum.

The fed's "Race to the Top" is part of the long process.

Do we need a national curriculum?

Do we benefit from one?

I don't know.

I do know that it is impossible to evaluate ALL educators based on test results because many areas aren't covered by standardized tests.

Some teachers, like me, choose to work with students that have special needs, mine involve behavior, discipline, ability to learn, willingness, to learn, socio-economic challenges, etc.

I teach World Geography, World History, American History, and PE to middle school students.

I teach Physical Science, World History, US History, Economics, US Government, Psychology, Sociology, Art, and PE to High School students.

All of the students are placed here for either a pattern of behavior that interferes with their opportunity to learn, or the opportunity of others, violence, drugs, zero tolerance, gang related behavior, felony arrest, and other reasons.

Given my students, and the variety of subjects, how will you determine the proficiency of my performance?

 

Like John said, those of you who choose to live someplace where the taxes are high should have chosen someplace else to live.

I know, he was talking about those who choose to teach, but same logic, right?

 

The changes in education today that teachers face are myriad in number.

The challenges in education are even greater.

I suggest you volunteer at a local school, become a mentor.

I'm sure it would help a child and that would be great.

 

Most states spend about 1/3 of the education budget on teacher salaries/benefits.

If your area has high taxes it isn't solely a result of teacher salaries.

 

Since so much depends on where you live wrt "education" this is a topic that has many different problems and potential solutions.

In Florida, teacher unions are present, yet it is illegal for public employees to strike (last one in 1968) so it is a different environment compared to a strong union state where teachers can, and do, strike.

Nepotism, favoritism, these happen in all employment fields but it is uncommon (and illegal) here.

 

So, a lack of spending is a problem in education, IMO.

 

We need, a longer school year. Comparing a high school grad from America to a HS grad in Russia where the school year is 204 days is not valid.

Comparing US HS grads to countries where unruly, unmotivated, disruptive students are removed from the equation isn't valid.

Now we can't and won't stop educating all students.

No need to go there.

But we can offer better quality opportunities to self motivated students who aren't disruptive.

In order to do so we will need to weather the storm of lawsuits that will follow.

Parents will not take a back seat if their child is placed in the "other" setting.

Trust me on that.

I've seen cases where a multiple arsonist was removed from the school setting. (Arson on school campus).

That of course is discrimination because the student has special needs.

Well if you have special needs you are identified, right?

And this student was so identified.

But then the parents opted out.

Year's later, felonies.

Oh wait, it is the school's fault, you didn't have him currently identified as having special needs, you let me have my way and did what I the parent wanted so now I'm suing.

Hundred's of thousands of dollars later...

and this isn't the exception.

 

Education is the Holy Grail of the American Dream.

Try and change it, even if it is for the better, and you'd better bring deep pockets.

An example of possible change is year round schools.

Some areas have embraced them.

Other places, not so much. Parent's object to numerous times when the school is closed for break (usually every 9 weeks and a short summer) because they need child care. A valid point but what is more important, daycare or improving education for your child?

 

Moshe,

You seem to be taking local experience and trying to extrapolate nationally.

That doesn't work.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

Data on per student spending over the past 50 years.

 

Some comparisons on per student expenditures.

NJ's is $13,600 per student.

NY over $17,000

Florida $9,000

Utah @$6,000

So NY spends 3x what Utah does per student.

NY teacher salary averages about $72,000

Utah $42,000 which is 7% lower that the year before

California $60,000 but teacher pupil ratio ranges (per district) from 8 to 1 up to 24 to 1

Point being, comparisons are difficult to make as conditions are so varied.

 

You mention administrative salaries.

From B of Labor statistics

Average Beginning Teacher Salary:

$31,753 Average Teacher Salary: $47,602 Average Administrator Salary:

$77,740 Elementary School Principals:

$82,414 Middle School Principals:

$87,866High School Principals:

$92,965

 

 

So your numbers, while they may be accurate, do not represent the state of education around the country.

Also, the statement that any mom or pop business or corporation is more difficult to run/manage than being an administrator rings hollow, to me.

I've done both.

School administration is harder, has more risk exposure in almost all cases.

The hours and types of "labor" management are quite different, but everything the business has the school does too, and then some.

 

 

 

Mike,

The involvement of parents in a child's education is the greatest common indicator of academic success. It is probably the greatest investment a family can make in their future.

 

As a Society we would all benefit from parental involvement but that is not going to happen in some/many cases. We (Society) have determined that the schools will replace that input.

Breakfast/lunch/daycare/after care, policies and programs on bullying, harassment, dating, sex, STD's, smoking, drugs, alcohol, the Holocaust, among other topics, are required in many areas by statute or DOE rules.

 

The role of schools in Society has changed, for better or worse. Trying to compare what goes on in today's "education" with that from the 50's/60's is an exercise in futility.

Most teachers would rather not have the mountain of paperwork required for each lesson (although planning is important, a major role of this activity is to CYA wrt lawsuits).

Most teachers know how to teach and would rather spend time developing thinking skills and academic skills than what the public perceives as "test prep".

Unfortunately, those tests are/will become(ing) an even bigger part of the environment.

That push isn't coming from the teachers.

That is coming from those in power who want to demonstrate that "accountability" is achievable via a measurement of some type. This is a false premise, IMO.

When a chef is done, the meal is ready, when a painter is done, the building is painted.

When a teacher is done there are no external tangible criteria to evaluate (there are when the student completes some tasks) so this measurement requires a tool.

The chosen tool is a "test". A snapshot in time.

One picture posted on Killboy that shows your proficiency as a rider.

Think about that.

Best wishes.

 

Craig,

That's more money than our Superintendent makes.

 

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Uh, everyone should be required to go back and re-read this post until they fully understand its meaning.

 

Nice work, Michael.

 

Thanks Steve. Glad somebody read it.

Don't worry ... others read it and got it too. :thumbsup:
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expend.gif

 

And, According to the Department of Education we have been increasing the education budget consistently for decades. How can education be declining if we are spending ever more on it? Doesn't more spending = better outcome?

 

Can you find that data adjusted for population and inflation? I'd be curious to know how it looks then.

 

Over the time period of that chart, inflation increased the cost of goods by 48% and the population of the U.S. increased by 15.9%. Because I was educated in a public school system and don't have math skills, I can't vouch for this number with absolute certainty, but I'd say that the graph represents about a 21% age- and population-adjusted increase over 15 years.

 

Of course, that doesn't account for shifts in age demographics.

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First, let me say thank you for the post. A lucid and well drafted viewpoint, to say nothing of your experience. Whew!

 

As for those figure I posted ...

 

They prove only what the salaries are in Calvert Co. Maryland - a somewhat rural county in Maryland not terribly farfrom DC. Maryland taxes are high ... as in OMG high! Co. taxes are 50-60% on top of the state taxes. Reale Estate is pretty exhorbitant (not NYC, California high, but pretty darned high still).

 

All these issues serve to push incomes higher. But as you pointed out, it's fairly relative to the area in which you live.

 

If a teacher sees these numbers, they might have a cow and think, "I've got to move to Maryland where I can get paid a bunch of money." However, one must weigh all the cost of an area to figure out your net income.

 

Side note: What I appreciate about Md is that although the taxes are high, you get something for them (pretty danged good roadsways, arguably acceptable school system, decent in state higher ed options, etc.) comparatively. And given the state has a balanced buget ammendment, it requires a lot of skill on the part of lawmakers to go very far out of the envelope.

 

Now there's a concept.

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The National School Lunch Program cost $9.8 billion in FY 2009. By comparison, the lunch program's total cost in 1947 was $70 million; in 1950, $119.7 million; in 1960, $225.8 million; in 1970, $565.5 million; in 1980, $3.2 billion; in 1990, $3.7 billion; and in 2000, 6.1 billion.

 

In 1998 it was expanded to include after school snacks.

 

It all adds up.

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We've committed ourselves to large-scale agriculture yet everybody still idealizes greenhouse techniques and results. Until we train our farmers and give them the right tools to do the job at hand instead of the idealized job, we won't reap economies of scale. It costs more to plant 40 acres if you use a trowel instead of a tractor. We also haven't reconciled ourselves to the fact that not every seed will grow, some plants will be crushed and discarded.

 

Uh, everyone should be required to go back and re-read this post until they fully understand its meaning.

 

Nice work, Michael. :thumbsup:

I understand perfectly what it means. The problem is you can’t just crush and discard people. Not unless we begin practicing educatied level based genocide that is. And heaven hope we never come to that.

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And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that.

 

According to Wikipedia, the honors look more like this.

 

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. United States

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

 

Yes, the key word is "attained" as in past tense. Substitute "have" and it's a whole different (and false) statement.

 

Quit living in the past! How do we build a future? In this thread's context - of education?

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John Ranalletta

The National School Lunch Program cost $9.8 billion in FY 2009. By comparison, the lunch program's total cost in 1947 was $70 million; in 1950, $119.7 million; in 1960, $225.8 million; in 1970, $565.5 million; in 1980, $3.2 billion; in 1990, $3.7 billion; and in 2000, 6.1 billion.

 

In 1998 it was expanded to include after school snacks.

 

It all adds up.

I'm not up to date on current policy, but my experience through the 80s made it very clear that school food service programs were dumping grounds for excess commodities, i.e. meat and cheese that were bought to prop up farmers. And, a dumping ground it was. One of my favorites was the "dirt and bean burrito".

 

Just like the beef grading system in the US (prime, choice, etc) was designed to soak up excess corn supplies to produce well-marbled beef, the USDA dictated that to qualify for subsidy, a meal had to contain a min of 2 oz or meat or meat protein.

 

Schools would order pizza, burritos, patties and other products from our company through their distributors and the government would ship the cheese to us to make the product - most of it awful stuff.

 

Your example spotlights that when we relegate activities that should be community based (feeding and education children)to the governmental units, costs accelerate at the speed of light, because there are no constraints.

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So it seems much good data is presented here to show that the problem varies geographically. Here in NJ perhaps, as usual, it's worse than average. Ultimately though I think we can agree, this is an area that deserves some attention.

 

-MKL

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"Your example spotlights that when we relegate activities that should be community based (feeding and education children)to the governmental units, costs accelerate at the speed of light, because there are no constraints."

 

John,

you talking schools or health care?

:/

 

I don't know that "dumping ground" is the state of supply today.

I do know that some of the choices seem OK.

 

 

That and the fact that for some of my kids the meals at school are basically their main/only source of regular food.

:(

 

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So it seems much good data is presented here to show that the problem varies geographically. Here in NJ perhaps, as usual, it's worse than average. Ultimately though I think we can agree, this is an area that deserves some attention.

 

-MKL

Frankly, I'll agree and go you one further ... it sounds like your area is one that needs investigation for corruption by appropriate authorities! :D
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Quit living in the past! How do we build a future? In this thread's context - of education?

 

Couple of things here, Ken. First of all, I can live anywhere, and anytime I like. Remember, it's a free country, and we are all still entitled to our beliefs. ;)

 

Now, on to more substantive things. You keep advocating that we 'must' change our ways and go down a different path. I say, "Bah!" We have wandered from the path which lead to greatness by doing exactly that. I think it's high time we stop all of this new-aged foolishness and return to the path which produced the greatest standard of living ever witnessed by humankind. It's not complicated, but you will have to do a few things you don't like.

 

It's kind of like eating your vegetables. :/

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Which I agree with, to an extent.

 

We know more about the "how" of learning wrt the neurological development side and have new technology to facilitate the exposure to data.

 

Mike mentioned value wrt to parents and the view they have towards an education.

That concept has withered among many families and as a result students don't respect themself as evidenced by a lack of respect towards authority, which in the school setting includes teachers and administrators.

 

The shooting yesterday of another administrator, in this case 2 of them, and the subsequent deaths is one of the manifestations of this devaluation, IMO.

 

In 1969 the movie Bonnie and Clyde was banned in some communities for excessive violence.

What a quaint concept. Not saying I agreed back then, and certainly the slo-mo effects are almost childish compared to the special effects of today but the idea that we should limit exposure to some aspects of violence to the young and impressionable may have merit.

 

We can't put the Genie back in the bottle and the schools have been given the responsibility of dealing with this when students and parents are involved.

We've dealt with 3 suicides in the past month involving parents and a student.

As a result an emphasis and of course the requisite program on suicide prevention has been instituted.

 

Another ramble, but the point is we can't expect schools to focus on academics and social issues and have time to proficiently impart knowledge and the wisdom to use it.

 

Parents need to parent, students need to be fed, nurtured, loved, and sent to school rested and ready to learn.

 

Schools need more quality time spent on educating and students need to be responsible for their classwork, homework, self discipline, and repect for their peers.

 

Those are things that don't cost money and would enhance the individual and Society as a whole.

Best wishes.

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Parents need to parent, students need to be fed, nurtured, loved, and sent to school rested and ready to learn.

 

Schools need more quality time spent on educating and students need to be responsible for their classwork, homework, self discipline, and repect for their peers.

 

Those are things that don't cost money and would enhance the individual and Society as a whole.

 

Spot on, Tim. That is exactly what we should be driving for. At one time we possessed that social model to a significant degree. We should reexamine why more parents of yesteryear better cared for their children then they do today. Armed with an honest understanding of how we succeeded then, we would be in a better position to make more productive choices today.

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http://www.economist.com/node/17851511

relating to teacher unions, mentions florida.

 

An overview of where we are heading.

Problem is, as I mentioned above, how do you "measure" the subject ares in Fine Arts/PE etc ?

Also the untold part of the measurement of student progress has a racial component with different scores needed by different students to be considered as having made progress.

That is an abomination, IMO, as it perpetuates certain stereotypes.

 

Anyone with half a brain realizes that home and socio-economic/demographic factors impact student motivation and performance.

There is NO WAY to adjust/factor/correct those factors when comparing test scores.

But they try.

Student X gets 75 snd is "making progress" student Y makes 75 and isn't.

An oversimplification but it will be part of the race to the top.

 

Teachers in certain schools will never have issues with their students making progress. School zones create disparities in the student demographics.

Once we start firing teachers who work at school Z because their students haven't made progrress, watch out, the pool of teachers will shrink and you won't get people to work in those settings.

Now, there are teachers who relish the opportunity to work in schools that have struggling students.

That will change.

 

To be fair, you would need to rotate tteachers into different schools every 3 years.

Send the proficient teachers from a school where the majority of the students are from upper income families to schools where the majority of students are Title I, free lunch, lower socio-economic levels.

Then compare results.

 

Florida has added stricter HS Grad requirements that include advanced math and science for every student.

We already have trouble getting qualified teachers to teach those subjects for the amount of money that is offered.

Can you imagine trying to hire a Physics teacher for a poor performing school?

"Yessir, we'll pay you $35,000 to teach Physics, but if your studetns aren't performing at level X% we'll fire you in 2 years."

I can see the line to apply for that job stretching out infinitely... :dopeslap:

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Quit living in the past! How do we build a future? In this thread's context - of education?

Couple of things here, Ken. First of all, I can live anywhere, and anytime I like. Remember, it's a free country, and we are all still entitled to our beliefs. ;)

Sorry, wasn’t attacking you personally, just using a cliché.

 

You keep advocating that we 'must' change our ways and go down a different path. I say, "Bah!" We have wandered from the path which lead to greatness by doing exactly that. I think it's high time we stop all of this new-aged foolishness and return to the path which produced the greatest standard of living ever witnessed by humankind. It's not complicated, but you will have to do a few things you don't like.

So how far back do think we need to return to get back on the path of greatness? 2007? 1990? 1960? Pre-civil rights? 1928? Pre-woman’s rights? Pre-child labor laws? 1865? Where’s that ‘magic’ point in time where progress switched from being a positive to being a negative?

 

It’s clear the path (in education and other areas) we’re on now isn’t working. Whether the ‘path to correction’ is a re-run of some path taken in the past, or entirely new concepts is the debate. IMHO trying to recreate the methods of the past (on most anything) rarely works because the conditions and the social-economic model/situation today is never what it was yesterday. I.e. the world has changed and there is no putting it back. We might not like it, and nostalgically long for the past, but it is, well... past.

 

But how about some specifics? What are those thinks you think we should do, that we won't like, but will put the USA back on top, in the context of this thread - on top in educating the USA's population to be the smartest in the world again?

 

Reviewing the thread, so far I think you’ve suggested:

 

• Don’t do away with summer breaks;

• Remove from the educational system (to a non-specific ‘somewhere’) those people who can’t or won’t be educated (the not every seed will grow metaphor); and

• A rather non-specific suggestion of returning to what was done in the past to make the USA “great.”

 

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One study on educational standings around the world – PISA

 

The ‘meat' of it – Rankings

 

If anyone REALLY wants to learn what can be done, and has time to read a 259 page report! - Strong Performers

and Successful Reformers in Education

 

The chapter on specifics for the United States begins on page 229. Here are the “Cliff Notes” –

 

• Develop a commitment to education and a conviction that all students can achieve at high levels;

• Establish ambitious, focused and coherent education standards that are shared across the system and aligned with high-stakes gateways and instructional systems;

• Develop more capacity at the point of delivery;

• Provide a work organization in which teachers can use their potential: Management, accountability and knowledge management;

• Institutionalize improved instructional practice;

• Align incentive structures and engaging stakeholders;

• Complement accountability to agents outside schools with accountability professional colleagues and parents;

• Invest resources where they can make the most difference;

• Balance local responsibility with a capable center with authority and legitimacy to act;

• Recognize the importance of workplace training to facilitate school-to-work transitions;

• Ensure coherence of policies and practices, aligning policies across all aspects of the system, establishing coherence of policies over sustained periods of time and securing consistency of implementation; and,

• Ensure an outwards orientation of the system to keep the system evolving, and to recognize challenges and potential future threats to current success.

 

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So how far back do think we need to return to get back on the path of greatness?

 

That's a good question. The quick answer is, to the point where we were getting the results we want now. But, keep in mind that it is not a all or nothing proposition. In other words, we can turn back the hands of time for positive things, but not for negative ones. We can pick and choose those events in our past which have produced good results, understand why they were good, and look for ways to re-implement them into our current society. That's all I'm saying.

 

 

But how about some specifics? What are those thinks you think we should do, that we won't like, but will put the USA back on top, in the context of this thread - on top in educating the USA's population to be the smartest in the world again?

 

Reviewing the thread, so far I think you’ve suggested:

 

• Don’t do away with summer breaks;

• Remove from the educational system (to a non-specific ‘somewhere’) those people who can’t or won’t be educated (the not every seed will grow metaphor); and

• A rather non-specific suggestion of returning to what was done in the past to make the USA “great.”

 

Specifics, sure. First of all, I've never personally bought onto the notion that Americans were ever smarter or better educated than the rest of the world. We did't work our way to the top by being smarter, we did it because we operated in a culture which rewarded risk taking and success.

 

I'm not a proponent of, or against, summer breaks. My point was simply that we have had an education system which, to my knowledge, always had summer breaks and yet we succeeded nonetheless. I don't see the school schedule as having much of anything to do with meaningful reform.

 

I do believe we should have a multi-track education based upon aptitude and effort. The simple reality is that some will and some won't [insert goal of choice here]. For example, anyone can become an astronaut, but only a few have the drive to do the necessary work to become one. Ignoring this reality wastes valuable time and resources which could be better utilized helping people become the best they can be based upon their own level of ambition and drive.

 

Specifics of where to turn to in the past is not something you can just throw in a soundbite. In order to learn from the past, one has to study the past. Our founding fathers didn't build a new country in a vacuum, they did it with a deep understanding of what had and had not worked in their past. They had deep knowledge of the various systems of past and present governments and cultures and melded the best characteristics of each into what became the Unite States of America. It worked for them, I see no idea why it wouldn't work for us.

 

In our efforts to better our society, we do need to innovate and accommodate the changes which occur over time. But, many things, when you really look at them, don't change at all. The basic principals of economics, human nature and physics really haven't changed over hundreds of years. We just need a better understanding of the things which worked in the past and apply them to today's circumstances.

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Curious: what salaries are paid to teachers and admins at private schools?

 

This may not be at all indicative of the general rule, but at my son's Catholic prep school salaries were lower than the local school districts, and there was a very high percentage of teachers with master's and PhD degrees. Of course, there's a huge distinguishing factor at a Catholic school, in the sense that many of the teachers' felt a religious calling to serve in that environment. Thus, financial considerations were not as big a motivating factor as they were for many.

Bingo, we have a winner. Teachers who want to be there and not teachers who have to be there. The key to a quality education.

 

This is part of the equation. The other part is that students are sent to private schools by motivated parents that take an interest in their child's performance. The students went to school at 5 or 6 already motivated to learn. And they know that irresponsible behavior will get them bounced out. Prepared students and consequences for poor behavior.....That has to mean something to a teacher. Performance is extracted by choosing the most likely to succeed from the larger pool.

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Steve,

Research shows a drop in info retention over the summer vacation.

Shortening it to 4-5 weeks would make a huge difference.

 

4wheel.

Kansas City had about 78,000 students and set up magnet and charter schools with all types of programs to attract/interest and motivate.

Over a decade I think the decline in student population has dropped to about 20,000 students. (from memory)

So, infrastructure un or under utilized, busing etc and a glut of qualified teachers.

Where did they go (students0?

Private schools where salaries usually are lower.

 

I support a change that would reduce/eliminate free education to students 16 or older who are disruptive, failing, interfere with the educational process.

Charge the "family" for the service.

Might motivate some parent(s) to hold child responsible for their actions rather than sue the District hoping for a lottery win.

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Kansas City had about 78,000 students and set up magnet and charter schools with all types of programs to attract/interest and motivate.

Over a decade I think the decline in student population has dropped to about 20,000 students. (from memory)

So, infrastructure un or under utilized, busing etc and a glut of qualified teachers.

Where did they go (students0?

Private schools where salaries usually are lower.

Just a side note – I lived in KC when the KCMO School District lost it’s accreditation and all the other turmoil within it during the 1990’s. There’s a whole lot more to, factors in, that mess than just the charter schools vs. private schools subject.

 

Most notably a BoE that were pioneers in the adversarial based politics that is the norm today. If ever there was a group of 12 people in a room that didn’t give a _hit about education or children, it was that bunch. I sat in one of the BoE member’s office one day and listen to him for a half-hour openly brag that his top goal was to rip off the school district of as many chartered golfing trips as he could under the guises of “education research” trips. I saw many a BoE meeting where they literally would pick up and throw things at each other; resulting in some members walking out and thus no quorum to accomplish anything. Then they would have the gall to rather regularly fire a district administrative president for failing to turn the district around. I think they went through something like four administrators in six years. And voted themselves eight pay raises in the same time period. They are to this day in history the very poster child of how to destroy a school district.

 

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