Jump to content
IGNORED

Lack of Spending in Education


Ken H.

Recommended Posts

Larry (Whip) wnated a lack of spending in Education thread so here it is!

 

OK, I'll start - The problem isn't lack of spending in education, the problem is lack of education in Education.

 

Step 1 - Do away with summer breaks. It sets students back too much each break cycle (i.e. re-learn time needed), and USA and Canadian K-12 children currently spend less total hours in school than most other ‘first world’ countries.

 

Step 2 - ?

Link to comment

Add good manufacturing jobs to the economy so only one parent of a middle class family has to work.

 

Bring back rampant prejudice against talented women working in industry so they can be relegated back to being school teachers (kidding) OR pay teachers enough to attract quality people to the field AND make laws that protect them from parental & student harassment.

 

Link to comment
Teachers are already paid 12 months wages for 9 months work. Would they be paid 15 months under your proposal?

 

My daughter is a new teacher making $35,000 per year. She must work another job in the summer to help support herself and her daughter. I'm sure that she and other teachers would expect to be fairly compensated if their work load was increased by three months. Teachers are underpaid as it is. Making them work another two or three months without paying them for the exta time is a ridiculous idea.

So Ken's idea about a longer school year is a good one. Now how do we pay for it?

Link to comment

Ken....we may be close again.

 

 

Rich...How much of the cost of education is actually teachers pay?

 

 

 

Answer:

 

Each Student costs about $10k per year.

 

The teachers may not be getting paid enough, but it ain't cause WE ain't paying enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

I guess I don't understand that. Everyone bemoans low teacher pay; yet, 10s of thousands of high school grads attend college to become teachers. Are they too dumb to understand what they read? Do they hold onto unreasonable expectations? Why do they complain about the situation in which they find themselves when they knew what it was going to be?

 

I'd offer there are lots of very good teachers who are underpaid; and, there are many more who went to teachers' college because it was easier than alternative curricula.

 

When the supply of teachers dries up, the price for teachers will rise.

Link to comment

Do something else with those students who have already absorbed all the education they're going to absorb. The kids left will be able to get a better education for the same amount of money. Yep, I said it. Leave some of these kids behind. Maybe not out on the street, but at least out of the standard classroom. Trying to cram a one size fits all education down everyone's throat surely isn't working. In my area two thirds of black males and one third of white males don't graduate high school.

 

 

---

 

 

Link to comment
The teachers may not be getting paid enough, but it ain't cause WE ain't paying enough.

 

:thumbsup: Amen, brother. Right here in NJ, the local school board's budget was defeated in the last election, so my 8 year old's Spanish curriculum was eliminated, as were many after-school programs. The teachers start at $30k per year, and are bright, young, and eager for the most part. Some were let go due to "budget." I pay $12k (and rising) per year in local property taxes, and overwhelmingly that goes to "education." So my daughter learns less, and teachers are being let go.

 

So where does the money go? The paper published the salaries of the "administrators." How does $250k grab you, on average? Even the "Custodial Administrator" (i.e., head janitor and maintenance guy) rakes in $150k. THEIR salaries are never at issue. And when budgets come due they trot out the teachers and some kids in the ads, telling us "not to cut if we care about kids."

 

We care about kids. And I for one care about teachers - beyond parents they are the most important influence in a kid's life. If I have to pay MORE in taxes to attract good teachers, pay them well, and keep them, I'll do it. It doesn't pay to be shortsighted about education, as this country has sadly become (take a look at where we rank vs. other industrialized nations).

 

But the admins - an organization rife with corruption, nepositsm, and plain 'ol politics - THAT'S where the money goes, and where it stays. They smartly stay in the background letting the teachers and kids do the PR. Enough already.

 

-MKL

Link to comment
Teachers are already paid 12 months wages for 9 months work. Would they be paid 15 months under your proposal?

 

That is an ignorant statement. Would you work 33% more for the same wage you receive for your present volume produced?

 

I would not do what teachers do (Nor put up with the bovine excrement they do) for twice what they get now.

Link to comment

We've committed ourselves to large-scale agriculture yet everybody still idealizes greenhouse techniques and results. Until we train our farmers and give them the right tools to do the job at hand instead of the idealized job, we won't reap economies of scale. It costs more to plant 40 acres if you use a trowel instead of a tractor. We also haven't reconciled ourselves to the fact that not every seed will grow, some plants will be crushed and discarded.

Link to comment

 

That is an ignorant statement. Would you work 33% more for the same wage you receive for your present volume produced?

 

 

In this new economy, your betcha! I make 1/3rd of what I use to make when I work and glad to have it.

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Even the "Custodial Administrator" (i.e., head janitor and maintenance guy) rakes in $150k. THEIR salaries are never at issue. And when budgets come due they trot out the teachers and some kids in the ads, telling us "not to cut if we care about kids."

 

Yup.

 

Every time California is in a budget crisis (which is, basically....always) they say they need to raise our taxes or cut police, fire, and schools.

 

Like those are the only two options.

 

The reason is simple: Nobody would give a sh*t if you said "Hey...if you want your kids to get a decent education, we're going to have to get rid of all of this useless administrative overhead."

 

People do really stupid stuff when they're emotional. So...make the situation emotional (Your house will burn down, you'll be robbed and then raped, and your kids will face a 250:1 student:teacher ratio unless you allow us to raise taxes again!!) and you get the result you wanted: An electorate that makes dumb decisions.

Link to comment
John Ranalletta
Teachers are already paid 12 months wages for 9 months work. Would they be paid 15 months under your proposal?

 

That is an ignorant statement. Would you work 33% more for the same wage you receive for your present volume produced?

 

I would not do what teachers do (Nor put up with the bovine excrement they do) for twice what they get now.

I'd guess your answer is "yes".
Link to comment
Do something else with those students who have already absorbed all the education they're going to absorb. The kids left will be able to get a better education for the same amount of money. Yep, I said it. Leave some of these kids behind. Maybe not out on the street, but at least out of the standard classroom. Trying to cram a one size fits all education down everyone's throat surely isn't working. In my area two thirds of black males and one third of white males don't graduate high school.

 

 

---

 

 

We're close..Free high school education should be a privilege, not a requirement. A fine high school education should be free to those who want one bad enough to work for it, follow the rules, and strive for excellence..Those not interested in that should not be allowed to attend.Do that and there will be plenty of resources to meet the need..

 

 

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

A young relative just graduated top of her class with a teaching degree and a license. All through college, her dad cautioned that finding a job would be hard and she could make more $ in another line of work.

 

She graduated, couldn't find a job and is now working as a nanny. She doesn't like it. So, whom should she blame for her predicament? Oh, dumb me. It must be society's fault.

Link to comment
Teachers are already paid 12 months wages for 9 months work. Would they be paid 15 months under your proposal?

The way a high-quality education is so important today for success, both individually and societal, teachers are grossly underpaid regardless of how you happen to slice up the math. They are one of the kingpins of our future success and yet we all but ignore them! ‘taint right I tell you, just ‘taint right.

Link to comment
Do something else with those students who have already absorbed all the education they're going to absorb. The kids left will be able to get a better education for the same amount of money. Yep, I said it. Leave some of these kids behind. Maybe not out on the street, but at least out of the standard classroom. Trying to cram a one size fits all education down everyone's throat surely isn't working. In my area two thirds of black males and one third of white males don't graduate high school.

---

We're close..Free high school education should be a privilege, not a requirement. A fine high school education should be free to those who want one bad enough to work for it, follow the rules, and strive for excellence..Those not interested in that should not be allowed to attend.Do that and there will be plenty of resources to meet the need..

I don’t know about that… I struggle to understand how a larger population of under-educated, lower skilled, and (likely) under-paid, day-to-day struggling to survive youths is any recipe for long-term success.

 

But I certainly agree the one size fits all model doesn’t work. But ‘fit the size or get out’? I’m less than convinced. Where else they going to go / end up but on the street? Seems like just a recipe for more crime to me.

 

Anyway, so far I’ve seen three ideas in this thread and one of them I listed. There must be more ideas out there. ???

 

Link to comment

My real estate taxes are $18k/year and I have no children. Most is for the school system. I'm glad to pay it. I hope they use it wisely.

 

As for teacher pay...Incentive based. Just like other commercial jobs.

 

Example...Based on national standard testing if your class scores in the x percentile, that is how you will be paid. If they fall below x percentile you will be terminated.

 

I think Billy nailed it. It is a privledge to get an education. Those who respect the education system get it, those who don't can find their own way.

Link to comment

 

Step 1 - Do away with summer breaks. It sets students back too much each break cycle (i.e. re-learn time needed), and USA and Canadian K-12 children currently spend less total hours in school than most other ‘first world’ countries.

 

Step 2 - ?

Been there, done that. My kids went to year round school due to overcrowding. They never had a summer vacation. Both children are successful and productive though not entirely the result of their public school education. Involved, loving, caring and supportive parenting is why they turned out well.

 

Link to comment
Step 1 - Do away with summer breaks. It sets students back too much each break cycle (i.e. re-learn time needed), and USA and Canadian K-12 children currently spend less total hours in school than most other ‘first world’ countries.

 

And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that. I'm thinking Step 2 ought to be crossing out Step 1 and then figure out what we really ought to do.

Link to comment
We've committed ourselves to large-scale agriculture yet everybody still idealizes greenhouse techniques and results. Until we train our farmers and give them the right tools to do the job at hand instead of the idealized job, we won't reap economies of scale. It costs more to plant 40 acres if you use a trowel instead of a tractor. We also haven't reconciled ourselves to the fact that not every seed will grow, some plants will be crushed and discarded.

 

Uh, everyone should be required to go back and re-read this post until they fully understand its meaning.

 

Nice work, Michael. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Example...Based on national standard testing if your class scores in the x percentile, that is how you will be paid. If they fall below x percentile you will be terminated.I think Billy nailed it. It is a privledge to get an education. Those who respect the education system get it, those who don't can find their own way.

 

Ask one of your neighbors or friends with young kids how much time they take actually learning something vs. how much time they take these days being prepped for standardized tests, which in general measure mile-wide-inch-deep type knowledge. I see it in my own daughter - it's sad, and ineffective to boot.

 

Re "find their own way" that's as good as saying "leave them to the wolves." What does that mean, exactly, and how much will that cost both literally and figuratively in the future? Education is the key constant in making a good life for yourself and your family, and by extension your neighborhood community and country at large. It's what separates civilized societies from the rest. If kids who barely know how to dress themselves are told to "find their own way" when school doesn't appeal to them, all that will happen is an underclass will form, which ultimately you will pay on the double for.

 

How can anyone defend a child's teacher making a menial living while an admin (who is usually no better educated than said teacher) makes an outrageous salary? Is it the "market" that determines this lopsided value system? I think not. Education is mired in politics and the teachers are on the bottom of the totem pole with everyone from useless, redundant admins to delusional parents ("not MY perfect Johnny") pissing on their heads from above.

 

-MKL

 

 

Link to comment

all that will happen is an underclass will form..

 

MKL...I believe that is what is already in place. An underclass has developed and is detrimental to the students who are there to learn, not wear their pants on the ground, give the teachers crap, and basically just hang out. I don't want my tax dollars going to support pants on the ground. I would much rather it goes to the students who want to learn and the teachers who excel. It is how life is after school.

 

I can't think of any employer that says oh gee let's go get some back talking, belligerent, non-caring, ineffective employees and pay them a good salary. The students need to learn this early. I'm an old fart who still believes the teachers should carry a big stick and the students should respect them. If not...send them home.

 

They won't all be genius, but they all need to work to be the best they can be. No excuses.

 

Just my .02.

 

Link to comment

Sky... There is some truth in what you say, but also some idealism as well in my opinion.

 

My sister is a teacher, used to be in public schools. We were raised in a relatively well off area with both parents in the home. Her first job was in the inner city in a public school. She's 5'1" and weighs maybe 90 pounds. Her first day in, she saw the bullet holes in the side of the building, and was asked if she had any kids of her own. When she answered that she wasn't married, the "kids" there had no idea what she was talking about. At 13 and 14 years old, many of her students were already mothers themselves.

 

There is no "go home" because there is no "home" to speak of. The problems are deep, and complicated, and difficult to solve. My wife's a pediatric nurse in the inner city - you should hear what goes on with these kids. It cannot and will not be solved with a solution that fits neatly into a sound bite or on a bumper sticker, and deep down inside anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows this.

 

Even on a (much) lighter note, I was a poor student myself in high school. I rarely showed up, put in zero effort, and barely graduated. The only reason I came when I did is because I was forced to. I hated it with a passion. 4 years later I was near the top of my class in college and went on to graduate the top MBA program in the country. Some flowers bloom late, pants on the ground or no.

 

-MKL

Link to comment

 

How can anyone defend a child's teacher making a menial living while an admin (who is usually no better educated than said teacher) makes an outrageous salary? Is it the "market" that determines this lopsided value system? I think not. Education is mired in politics and the teachers are on the bottom of the totem pole with everyone from useless, redundant admins to delusional parents ("not MY perfect Johnny") pissing on their heads from above.

 

One word...

 

uNIOnS

 

Step 1. remove the unions

Step 2. get the school board out of maintaining the structures to reduce non-essential expenses

Step 3. teachers need to create a repeatable product (educated students) not fodder for a standardized test

Step 4. Proficiency pay

 

 

Link to comment

 

One word...

 

uNIOnS

 

Step 1. remove the unions

 

 

:rofl: I love it! Very, very deep thinking there. While we're still in full utopia-mode, I'm riding off into the sunset on my unicorn, with my bikini-clad girlfriend Scarlett Johansson, and enough loot to own a small private country of my own. Sounds nice - fat chance.

 

-MKL

Link to comment

Step 2: Class time from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM. No homework.

The kids would be in class being taught more, but at the end of the day, it's over. No 'overtime' for either the student or the teacher.

 

No need to pay for pre- or after-school day care (or much less $$$) Class time runs 50 weeks a year. Class breaks at Thanksgiving and Christmas. Unless you live in Berkeley; you don't get those ;)

 

State contributes for 401(k) but does not contribute to a pension. State no longer in the pension business fot teachers. Other State positions follow suit with new hires. Maintain commitment to those already in the system.

Link to comment
CoarsegoldKid
The problem isn't lack of spending in education, the problem is lack of education in Education.

 

Step 1 - Do away with summer breaks. It sets students back too much each break cycle (i.e. re-learn time needed), and USA and Canadian K-12 children currently spend less total hours in school than most other ‘first world’ countries.

 

Step 2 - ?

Step 2 is to pay for it. Teachers need to make a living. Teachers need not buy supplies for their students.

The answer isn't cut police and fire protection to save teachers. As a country we can't afford to lose either. Be accountable, watch the bottom line, reward good performance. It costs what it costs. If everyone gets better at their job don't you think they should be rewarded? What's the metric? Some say reward. Some say pay everyone the same. The current revenue stream is shrinking. Suck it up. How does private enterprise reward employees? Increase prices? Automate? Hard to automate police, fire, and education. Politicians fear raising taxes. We spend where we shouldn't and not where we should is a fair statement. The problem is we can't decide on who or what gets left out. Once you cut to the bone then what are you going to do. Print money or raise taxes?

Link to comment
And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that.

 

According to Wikipedia, the honors look more like this.

 

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. United States

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

 

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Unions are not the enemy. In fact, when one perceives the union as separate from the employees, one can never get a grasp on the issues. Here's a letter I've sent to many IN pols and others on the subject:

I wrote the following to an IndyStar columnist and thought I’d share it with you relative the teachers’ union issue.

 

A few years ago, before our company changed its name from Bob Wilson & Associates, Inc. to ADVISA, I wrote a note to my clients describing the conundrum faced by educators. This is not sent to promote our services, but to point out that the changes being pushed by the Governor are systemic. They erroneously presuppose that educators are results oriented and want to be measured thereby when, in fact, they are very task oriented individuals who want to continue to be measured by the daily delivery of their coursework. The Governor is very likely a proactive, risk-oriented person who fails to understand others who are reactive and risk averse.

 

Here’s an analogy: most factory workers, like teachers and airline pilots, are task oriented, i.e. “Tell me what you want me to do; train me to do it; and, I’ll do the job perfectly every day.” Along comes a results-oriented superintendent (the Governor) who says to these workers, “I want you to feel personally responsible for the customer’s experience every time they use the products you are making.”

 

In real life, the employee grins, nods and promptly forgets the superintendent’s plea. It’s not that s/he wants the customer to have a bad experience with the product; rather, they don’t want to be responsible for that experience. They only want to be responsible for what they can control, e.g. putting the right product in the right box. Further, they don’t want to go home at the end of their shifts worrying about anything other than “Did I do my job right today?”

 

It’s very likely that most administrators are task oriented and reactive as well since most were promoted from the teacher cadre because they stood out as the most compliant to rules and processes. Now, those same people are being asked to drive change. Go figure. They nod their heads when they meet with the Governor and shrug their shoulders in a “beat’s me” gestures when they pass on the message to their teacher staffs.

 

The Governor’s changes are at the cultural level of the education system. That culture change he encourages cannot satisfy current incumbents. It will drive them more deeply into union mode which, by definition and history is not change proactive but change averse. On the other hand, the results oriented people will not be attracted to teaching jobs because they disdain the rules-based routine teaching demands. The union is not the enemy in this arena. It only exists because it meets the needs of its members, i.e. to stabilize processes and rules, not to promote change.

 

BTW, I am not anti-union. My father walked with John L. Lewis to form the Progressive Miners Union, later the UMWA; and, our family was better for it; but I understand unions are formed and exist where the employees are predominantly reactive; clinging to rules and processes and where the employer is perceived as not caring for its employees are people and acting unfairly. Driving the wedge deeper will not help. Changing the culture is not the answer. If task-based teaching doesn’t work, how did it create the “greatest generation” of WWII; or educate the scientists who first landed on the moon?

 

When we tell a teacher that his/her pay and employees status will be based upon a further result and we fail to provide them with clear processes and rules to achieve that objective, they feel rob of the very things that builds self confidence in their performance in the classroom.

 

So, any conversation about changing the dynamics in the education arena that doesn’t start with an understanding of the players’ intrinsic needs is bound to fail and fail badly.

Link to comment
Paul Mihalka
And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that.

 

According to Wikipedia, the honors look more like this.

 

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. United States

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

Let's not confuse beliefs with facts... :)

Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday
How can anyone defend a child's teacher making a menial living while an admin (who is usually no better educated than said teacher) makes an outrageous salary? Is it the "market" that determines this lopsided value system? I think not.

 

Why do you think not? Why do you suppose teacher salaries are low, and admin salaries are high, nation-wide?

 

You make the mistake of assuming that the market regards the work someone does as less important because of the salary that is offered for that work. The reality is that all of these jobs are critical to the success of the system:

 

-without admins, resources don't get acquired/allocated, bills don't get paid. Pretty soon the lights won't stay lit, and kids won't be able to learn.

 

-without teachers, well, yes, there's no one to teach kids; kids won't be able to learn.

 

-without cafeteria workers, kids won't get fed; it's gonna be hard for them to learn if their stomach is grumbling all afternoon, or if they've snuck off-campus to go to McDonald's.

 

-without janitors, the trash will soon be piled ass-deep in the classrooms. This would not make for a good learning environment.

 

We need all of these jobs to be done in order for kids to learn what we're trying to teach them. They are all critically important to the mission, despite the different salaries paid to the people who do those different jobs. But if I can find a qualified individual wililng to do a job for $X, why would I pay $2X?

 

As John noted upthread, there is already a glut of qualified applicants for teaching positions. What exactly would raising teacher's salaries accomplish with respect to kids' education?

 

Similarly, if qualified applicants for administrative jobs can be found for less than $250, why has no district lowered the salary for those jobs?

 

"Custodial administrator" makes $150K? If he's dealing with cleaning and maintenance of a large school building, I'll wager it's a complicated task. In the lab building where I work there are heating systems, cooling systems, plumbing systems, electrical systems, fire suppression systems, all of which need constant maintenance. Walls must be painted, flooring must be kept sound and free of trip hazards, roofing must be patched and occasionally replaced, landscaping maintained. There is constant maintenance going on around here, and I expect the same is true in any large building. It's a rare person who can keep track of it all and make sure the labor, equipment, materials, and funding are all in place so that those things get done in a timely fashion. The $150K salary is not because "it's a lot of work," it's because there aren't that many people who can do that kind of job well. Want to attract that rare applicant who is qualified? You'll need to dangle a bigger carrot.

 

Bottom line, I don't think it's automatically outrageous that administrative positions earn larger salaries than teachers.

 

 

Link to comment
And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that.

 

According to Wikipedia, the honors look more like this.

 

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. United States

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

 

Newsweek, Time, and a few major newspapers did stories on this issue in the past year, if I recall. In no case was the US "the highest standard of living in the world" overall. We did have excellent results in some areas (access to medical treatment, etc.) and terrible results in others (infant mortality, access to education, divorce rate, etc.). The overall result was a middling finish among other first world industrialized nations. I suppose this could be some vast conspiracy by "media hacks," or perhaps many different investigative outlets coming to similar conclusions. "Cognitive dissonance" (from the hybrid thread) determines which you believe....

 

-MKL

Link to comment

John,

That's a nice letter. While I believe the UNION is not the only enemy, I believe it is the larger part of the problem. IMO, it's also one of the largest reasons that teachers get paid as poorly as they do at least around this part of the country. Without opportunity to market and represent themselves, they are held to whatever deal has been struck with the school systems.

 

My experiences with the local teacher's union (DTU in Duval county) is the only one I can cite, but I can tell you that my decision to leave that county district is directly related the operations of the union and the local school board.

 

Heading off for shoulder surgery soon, I'll finish my post later on

 

Link to comment
Nice n Easy Rider
Heading off for shoulder surgery soon, I'll finish my post later on

Mini-Hijack: Good luck on the surgery Matt. :thumbsup: End of Hijack.

Link to comment

Ask one of your neighbors or friends with young kids how much time they take actually learning something vs. how much time they take these days being prepped for standardized tests, which in general measure mile-wide-inch-deep type knowledge. I see it in my own daughter - it's sad, and ineffective to boot.

 

I've been hearing this for years--it strikes me as bull-pucky offered up by educators, parents and communities who are failing. It's as simplistic and nonsensical as any of the other "causes" that have been derided here: unionized teachers, overpaid administrators, etc.

 

The problem goes much deeper than one that can be simply changed by throwing a one-dimensional "fix" at it. First--and I think this is really the root of most of the shortcomings--is that the overwhelming majority of parents (and our society in general) does not value education. Without scholarship being a family value, mandated in the home, it all falls apart. Yet, the truth is that most parents don't care. I, myself, have some trouble wrapping my brain around it, but ours is not the white bread, Leave it to Beaver world that we may envision it, with an economically stable and emotionally supportive family waiting at home, when young Wally gets into trouble at school. The truth is that many kids come from dysfunctional, abusive or neglectful homes, where the parents have no interest, or perhaps no ability, to nurture their emotional or intellectual needs. It will never work unless and until we can effect a huge social change that provides stable homes and fosters a common value that education matters.

 

If we were ever to get to that point, we'd have some hope. Getting back to my original point of blaming standardized tests, unions, or whatever for educational failures, I'll hold out a couple of examples with which I am familiar. First, the local public school district in the City where I live. It's consistently been recognized as among the best in the state and has won national accolades, but the per student tax expenditures are below most in the Chicago metro area and the kids have to take the same standardized tests as everyone else. The difference? There are a lot of highly-educated parents that make up the populace, businesses actively support the schools, and at least one charitable foundation undertakes significant projects to offer grants to teachers who request help in creating innovative programs for their students. The teachers are unionized and fairly compensated, the kids go to school nine months out of the year, and the schools have to prep for the same standardized tests that are widely lamented by educators, but the kids do well . . . exceptionally well. It's because parents and the community as a whole value and support education.

 

A second, somewhat different example that I'm familiar with is the Catholic high school my son attended, Benet Academy. Again, the per-student expenditure was lower than most public schools in the Chicago metro area. The kids went to school nine months out of the year. Here are the results:

 

The graduating class of 2010 achieved an average composite score of 28.4 (above the 92nd percentile) on the ACT, , which was the seventh straight year average score topped 28, compared to a statewide average of 20.7 and national average of 21.0. Over 42 percent of the class had a score of 30 (above the 96th percentile) or higher. Benet outscored all DuPage County high schools. In 2008, Benet had 9 National Merit Semi-Finalists, 34 National Merit Commended Scholars, and 5 National Merit Hispanic Scholars in the National Merit Scholarship Program and 137 students were named Illinois State Scholars, an honor awarded to top ten percent of seniors in the state and based on test scores, class rank, or both. In 2010, 332 students took Advanced Placement exams and 86 percent of them scored at least a 3 out of 5. Two National AP Scholar awards were granted to students who averaged a 4 on all exams taken and received at least a 4 on eight or more exams, 28 AP Scholar with Distinction awards were granted to students who averaged at least 3.5 on all exams taken and scored at least a 3 on five or more exams, 51 AP Scholar awards were granted to students who scored at least a 3 on three or more exams, and 76 students received other AP Scholar awards.

 

Smart kids, yes, but the biggest difference, as far as I could see, was that they all came from backgrounds that valued education, and they participated in a rigorous, classical education.

Link to comment
But the admins - an organization rife with corruption, nepositsm, and plain 'ol politics - THAT'S where the money goes, and where it stays. They smartly stay in the background letting the teachers and kids do the PR. Enough already.

 

That's the NJ way! Thankfully, they are gettin' exposed!

Link to comment

>>>>You make the mistake of assuming that the market regards the work someone does as less important because of the salary that is offered for that work. The reality is that all of these jobs are critical to the success of the system<<<<<

 

Mitch, first let me say I have learned much from you technically on these bikes we ride. I always enjoy your posts and have never replied to one before. Here I will 100% disagree with your first sentiment, since in fact the SOLE importance the market determines relative to job importance is salary, as dictated by supply and demand. I will further 100% agree with your second sentiment, that all of the jobs are critical - though I will add "not equally so" in this case. If I take my bike to the local shop to get fixed, it's nice to know the bills are being paid and the carpets are clean, but it's the competence of the mechanic digging into my machine that I'm most concerned with.

 

>>>>>We need all of these jobs to be done in order for kids to learn what we're trying to teach them. They are all critically important to the mission, despite the different salaries paid to the people who do those different jobs. But if I can find a qualified individual wililng to do a job for $X, why would I pay $2X? As John noted upthread, there is already a glut of qualified applicants for teaching positions. What exactly would raising teacher's salaries accomplish with respect to kids' education?<<<<<<

 

Now, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. First obvious point is, as was raised earlier, how many truly gifted and qualified people chooe a different path than teaching as a profession because the salaries are so low? Second, more to the mechanics of market economics, if there is a glut of offerings at one salary, it means you can raise the standards of what is required (education, experience, and so on) and pay more, getting a higher grade of applicant and a higher quality of work.

 

>>>>>Similarly, if qualified applicants for administrative jobs can be found for less than $250, why has no district lowered the salary for those jobs?<<<<<

 

For the same reason an "independent" board of directors (say at old GM) keeps a CEO who is clearly a disaster (like Rick Wagoner) on for years at outrageous salary. In theory, the board elects and throws out management independently to serve the wishes of the stockholders. In reality, in some cases, management and oversight are a complex network of politically intertwined and connected individuals who all know each other and have no vested interest in "doing the right thing." Dig into it. The admins in ANY town are somehow related to the town's politicos either by blood or by past relationships (school buddies, former co-workers, etc.). It's nepotism, corruption, lack of oversight, and all the rest. You know what an office admin makes in the private sector? In my company, maybe $50-60k, tops. I bet you my house my office admin carries twice the work load of any public school board admin, and gets it done twice as fast and 10x as well. There is no possible rational defense for the disparity between public and private admin salaries.

 

>>>>>The $150K salary is not because "it's a lot of work," it's because there aren't that many people who can do that kind of job well. Want to attract that rare applicant who is qualified? You'll need to dangle a bigger carrot.<<<<<

 

My point exactly. The skills required of an admin are duplicated in the private sector, in any company from the mom-and-pop deli down the street to Mircosoft. The payment disparity makes absolutely no sense, and the price is set not by market forces but by the less than honest forces I described above. In others words, we can easily prove the job responsibilities of public vs. private admins are similar and thus that the applicant pool should be similar by extension, not that public admins should be paid a quarter-mil because they went to college with the mayor of town. By contrast, there is a glut of teaching applications to start at menial salary, and no real private sector equivalent or force except parents who want the best for their children, in most cases. In my utopia, the salaries are reversed, as standards for teachers are raised, and people begin to see teaching not as a labor of love, but as a well paying career choice for the *brightest* among us to endeavor to. All the money comes from the same pool in this case, and I ask again, do you really think an admin is worth $250k while the teacher who deals direct with the children is worth $30k? That to me is not market economics, but a clear sign that politics and corruption are at play.

 

Go to some other countries whose kids flat-out slaughter ours in testing, and see how teaching is a revered career choice there, one of respect and importance. Here it's lopsided. It's wrong.

 

-MKL

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Mike,

 

I recently spent a few days with my nephew and his family in Naperville. The kids are in public grade school. They are doing well I suppose, but the entry line of your post caught my eye:

 

Ask one of your neighbors or friends with young kids how much time
Perhaps, for some parents, the question should also be "How much time are parents spending helping teachers and their kids compared to how much time they spend making sure the kids get to gymnastics, hockey, dance and music lessons?"

 

I'm not suggesting those are worthwhile activities, but when I was in grade school (kerosene lamp days), our day was 8-4 with a couple hours of homework. We could not have engaged in the extra curricular activities were they available to us.

Link to comment

Mike-

 

Your post is excellent and I agree 100% with your sentiments. While lamenting the emphasis on standardized testing, I should mention my district does well too, as does my daughter in these tests. I wasn't making excuses for performance per se, I was pointing out the difference in actual learning. I remember being young and having classes where thinking things through (math, for example) was encouraged. Not just memorizing a formula and applying it by rote, but PROVING why the formula worked in the first place. When I see how my daughter's being taught, I think that "deeper" knowledge is being bypassed for a wider breadth but shallower depth type teaching, specifically to pass tests. I was lamenting that specifically, and you might find others who do so share my sentiments.

 

-MKL

Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday
Here I will 100% disagree with your first sentiment, since in fact the SOLE importance the market determines relative to job importance is salary, as dictated by supply and demand.

 

The salary doesn't indicate the imporantance of the job; it indicates the relative difficulty of finding someone to do that job.

 

If I take my bike to the local shop to get fixed, it's nice to know the bills are being paid and the carpets are clean, but it's the competence of the mechanic digging into my machine that I'm most concerned with.

 

If the mechanic can't work on your bike because the lights in the shop won't turn on or because they're completely out of shop rags and zip ties, then your bike's functionality relies equally on the shop manager's tasks and the mechanic's tasks, despite any inequity in their paychecks.

 

Now, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. First obvious point is, as was raised earlier, how many truly gifted and qualified people chooe a different path than teaching as a profession because the salaries are so low? Second, more to the mechanics of market economics, if there is a glut of offerings at one salary, it means you can raise the standards of what is required (education, experience, and so on) and pay more, getting a higher grade of applicant and a higher quality of work.

 

Your complaint then is not that salaries are too low for the teachers we have, but that the teachers we have are not up to the standards you would like to see enforced, and salaries are too low to attract applicants who can meet those standards.

 

The admins in ANY town are somehow related to the town's politicos either by blood or by past relationships (school buddies, former co-workers, etc.). It's nepotism, corruption, lack of oversight, and all the rest. You know what an office admin makes in the private sector? In my company, maybe $50-60k, tops. I bet you my house my office admin carries twice the work load of any public school board admin, and gets it done twice as fast and 10x as well. There is no possible rational defense for the disparity between public and private admin salaries.

 

The problem then is one of voter apathy. As the residents of Bell (CA) recently found out, it's probably worthwhile to attend civic meetings once in a while to see what's going on and to review the budget spreadsheets. You want admin salaries to match private sector? Start going to schoolboard meetings and making your voice heard. Convince your neighbors to do the same.

 

...do you really think an admin is worth $250k while the teacher who deals direct with the children is worth $30k?

 

I wouldn't know; I haven't tried to find qualified applicants.

 

Curious: what salaries are paid to teachers and admins at private schools?

 

Link to comment
And yet, somehow we attained the highest standard of living in the world doing just that.

 

According to Wikipedia, the honors look more like this.

 

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. United States

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

 

Oh, I stand corrected. How could Wikipedia be wrong?

Link to comment

 

That is an ignorant statement. Would you work 33% more for the same wage you receive for your present volume produced?

 

 

In this new economy, your betcha! I make 1/3rd of what I use to make when I work and glad to have it.

 

Thus begins the race to the bottom.......Envy of someone else not suffering as badly as yourself. I don't know what income level you started from to be able to live on a third, but teachers are not doing all that well on what they get now.

Link to comment
Mike-

 

Your post is excellent and I agree 100% with your sentiments. While lamenting the emphasis on standardized testing, I should mention my district does well too, as does my daughter in these tests. I wasn't making excuses for performance per se, I was pointing out the difference in actual learning. I remember being young and having classes where thinking things through (math, for example) was encouraged. Not just memorizing a formula and applying it by rote, but PROVING why the formula worked in the first place. When I see how my daughter's being taught, I think that "deeper" knowledge is being bypassed for a wider breadth but shallower depth type teaching, specifically to pass tests. I was lamenting that specifically, and you might find others who do so share my sentiments.

 

-MKL

 

I can't disagree with your observations. One thing I'd emphasize about my son's high school is this: it was a rigorous, "classical" education, requiring 22 Carnegie credits in English, math, history, foreign language, etc. He had to read a book, on average, every week or two. No fluff, like the "Life" classes that are offered in our local high schools. One of the things that says it all is this: he used to haul around Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, just because it meant so much to him. You don't generally get that if your high schools are spending millions on AstroTurf.

 

Anyway, the net result of this rigorous classical education, where cheerleading and football come in far behind scholarship, is that the kids absolutely kill the standardized tests. As you note, it's all about using their minds, rather than emphasizing rote memory. Again, though, I have to emphasize that I don't blame this entirely on the educators, nor on the system that encourages standardized measurements. It has to start with family and community values. That's a huge task.

Link to comment

Curious: what salaries are paid to teachers and admins at private schools?

 

This may not be at all indicative of the general rule, but at my son's Catholic prep school salaries were lower than the local school districts, and there was a very high percentage of teachers with master's and PhD degrees. Of course, there's a huge distinguishing factor at a Catholic school, in the sense that many of the teachers' felt a religious calling to serve in that environment. Thus, financial considerations were not as big a motivating factor as they were for many.

Link to comment

Curious: what salaries are paid to teachers and admins at private schools?

 

This may not be at all indicative of the general rule, but at my son's Catholic prep school salaries were lower than the local school districts, and there was a very high percentage of teachers with master's and PhD degrees. Of course, there's a huge distinguishing factor at a Catholic school, in the sense that many of the teachers' felt a religious calling to serve in that environment. Thus, financial considerations were not as big a motivating factor as they were for many.

Bingo, we have a winner. Teachers who want to be there and not teachers who have to be there. The key to a quality education.

 

Link to comment

Mitch-

 

Years ago I wrote an in-depth article on the public education system for a college project. I guess this makes it something like 14 years ago or so. At the time, the average public school was spending something like $13,000 per pupil, and the average religious school something like $8,000.00. Interestingly, the highest costs were often at schools that were performing most poorly, notably in DC's inner city, for example.

 

Some of this you can ascribe to the general inefficiency of any public organization vs. private. Some of the performance gap, in fairness to public schools, can be attributed to the fact that private schools can admit who they want, while public has to take all comers. Fair enough. But Whip's original point - that we pay enough - is a pretty easy case to make.

 

I think if I read you correctly that we're both basically saying the same thing in different ways. I am saying the primary way a worker's job's importance is measured, for better or worse, is his salary. "Thanks-yous" are nice but do not fill your belly nor put a roof over your head. We as a society have decided for better or worse that the second biggest influences in our children's lives - assuming there are parents around to begin with, which isn't a great assumption - are worth a menial pay grade, equal to a cookie-cutter office position or a cashier at a department store. Does this not stir something inside you which screams, "WRONG!"

 

I am saying, outright, that it is completely impossible for me to accept that a good administrator - common as I said before in ANY private sector business - is worth exponentially more than a good teacher. Ask yourself how rare it was to have a truly good teacher when you were growing up, vs. how many times you lamented an incompetent admin at your current job. In both cases, I bet the answer is "rare." As such, the salary disparity is, without question, a function of crooked politics and not job worth.

 

-MKL

Link to comment
"Cognitive dissonance" (from the hybrid thread) determines which you believe....

 

Hmmm, you might have a point there.

 

According to this website, the US places 36th in percentage of GDP spending on education. How did the US become the largest economy in the world while placing so poorly in this area?

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...