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NASA may be on to....Annoucement this afternoon


azkaisr

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There was some talk about sending Astronauts to Mars....with the full understadning they wont come back. As noted in another thread, maybe we can start by sending our politicians...

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Tom...I may have to use that flash pen on ya. You weren't supposed to say that till after we made the deal with eddd.

 

If he and his peeps are taking over we could have a place in the new world order.

 

 

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Danny caddyshack Noonan

Insiders are reporting that they are announcing a new, friendly, spokesperson to deal with the Federal Gov't budget.

ermeylnl.jpg

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I wonder if Mars has any good MC roads? LOL

 

From what I've heard off-road riding is really good. Lot of deep canyons and craters to explore.

But dust can be bitch due to the almost total lack of water on the planet. :)

 

Oh, and the crime rate is really low too. Instead of Copper Canyon, many are now planning for a trip to Mars.

 

--

Mikko

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russell_bynum
Bob already spilled the beans here Link

 

--

Mikko

That wasn't it!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11886943

 

A new form of earth life - found at Mono Lake.

 

How delightfully ironic that at the same time 'earth-like' nucleic compounds are found on a comet, 'unearth-like' nucleic compounds are found on earth!

 

From the article: "It starts to show life can survive outside the traditional truths and universals that we thought you have to use... this is knocking one brick out of that wall,"

 

How many times do we have to be astonished that life always finds a way? Nothing can live at the south pole. Nothing can live in the Marianas Trench. Everything has to fit such and such a mold.

 

I'm not trying to minimize the find, but seriously...when is it going to finally stop being a big deal when we once again learn that we don't know what we thought we knew?

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John Ranalletta
when is it going to finally stop being a big deal when we once again learn that we don't know what we thought we knew?
Could this be more about program funding and budget rationalization? Nah, probably not.
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when is it going to finally stop being a big deal when we once again learn that we don't know what we thought we knew?
Could this be more about program funding and budget rationalization? Nah, probably not.

 

tHAT...is really quite funny, JohnRan

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John Ranalletta

From a non-scientist's standpoint, NASA didn't do itself any favors today. The information it presented could well be very important, but likely only to a small slice of the population who follow and even can understand it's significance.

 

Just imagine NASA hadn't gone for suspense and had just issued a normal press release. Would it have made the headlines? Likely not, except in journals published for the small slice who understand and who care.

 

So, it comes off as a publicity stunt wrapped around a small, potentially-important discovery.

 

That's just my take.

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From a non-scientist's standpoint, NASA didn't do itself any favors today. The information it presented could well be very important, but likely only to a small slice of the population who follow and even can understand it's significance.

 

Just imagine NASA hadn't gone for suspense and had just issued a normal press release. Would it have made the headlines? Likely not, except in journals published for the small slice who understand and who care.

 

So, it comes off as a publicity stunt wrapped around a small, potentially-important discovery.

 

That's just my take.

 

Sorry but disagree with you here. If you take a look at the science (even as a non scientist), this is a pretty major deal. Not everything in this world has to be done for nefarious purpose John. Stuff like this is pretty profound.

 

Tom

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From a non-scientist's standpoint, NASA didn't do itself any favors today. The information it presented could well be very important, but likely only to a small slice of the population who follow and even can understand it's significance.

 

Just imagine NASA hadn't gone for suspense and had just issued a normal press release. Would it have made the headlines? Likely not, except in journals published for the small slice who understand and who care.

 

So, it comes off as a publicity stunt wrapped around a small, potentially-important discovery.

 

That's just my take.

 

Sorry but disagree with you here. If you take a look at the science (even as a non scientist), this is a pretty major deal. Not everything in this world has to be done for nefarious purpose John. Stuff like this is pretty profound.

 

Tom

 

+1 Finding out that the way life works is pretty different than how we thought is a big deal.

 

As I understand it, this is a more profound discovery than some of the symbiotic life forms we've found near volcanic vents and other amazing forms of life. The building blocks of DNA are different than we had imagined.

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Nature News

 

This article is the best I have found so far at exploring the significance of the discovery (The actual research paper itself is not freely available on the internet). Read the last sentence carefully please.

 

 

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From a non-scientist's standpoint, NASA didn't do itself any favors today. The information it presented could well be very important, but likely only to a small slice of the population who follow and even can understand it's significance.

 

Just imagine NASA hadn't gone for suspense and had just issued a normal press release. Would it have made the headlines? Likely not, except in journals published for the small slice who understand and who care.

 

So, it comes off as a publicity stunt wrapped around a small, potentially-important discovery.

 

That's just my take.

John, you seem to be in an incredibly negative phase at the moment!
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If you take a look at the science (even as a non scientist), this is a pretty major deal.

Tom

 

From Twisties link:

"The finding implies that "you can potentially cross phosphorus off the list of elements required for life", says David Valentine, a geomicrobiologist at the University of California, Santa Barbara."

 

"Mary Voytek, who heads NASA's astrobiology programme in Washington DC, agrees that the results are persuasive. "I think no single one of their measurements can prove" that arsenate is doing what phosphate normally would, she says, but taken together, "I will conservatively say that it's very hard to come up with an alternative explanation."

 

And the last sentence of the article: ""We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on," says Wolfe-Simon."

 

 

I read the article and am lost on the significance of the finding. Why do you think it's a major deal?

 

 

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From a non-scientist's standpoint, NASA didn't do itself any favors today. The information it presented could well be very important, but likely only to a small slice of the population who follow and even can understand it's significance.

 

Just imagine NASA hadn't gone for suspense and had just issued a normal press release. Would it have made the headlines? Likely not, except in journals published for the small slice who understand and who care.

 

So, it comes off as a publicity stunt wrapped around a small, potentially-important discovery.

 

That's just my take.

John, you seem to be in an incredibly negative phase at the moment!

 

I'm sure we all bring our own biases to the table.

 

I am really hoping George (nice and easy rider) will weigh in on this. I believe he is in a good position to explain the impacts a little better.

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I read the article and am lost on the significance of the finding. Why do you think it's a major deal?

 

I don't want to start the whole evolution discussion again but...

 

The significance is that until now all known life forms had combined the 6 elements named as the basis of life, now we have a life form that combines a different element, the first such life form to be discovered to do so. It may (MAY) suggest a second evolutionary path for life, it's certainly a fundamental change at the very root of earth-like cell nucleic chemistry.

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From the articles,

 

Potentially cross phosphorus off the list

 

I will conservatively say that it's very hard to come up with an alternative explanation.

 

We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on.

 

 

 

There's no certainty in their statements. It seems to be an interesting potential find. Even if it is as you say, why is that significant, as opposed to merely interesting? Is it because we know about a new life form?

 

I feel the same way I think John feels, that this is more another attempt at justifying NASA's existence. I think if it was a finding that has a reasonable potential to benefit society or individuals, it could rise to the level of a big deal. Does it have that potential?

 

 

 

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From the articles,

 

Potentially cross phosphorus off the list

 

I will conservatively say that it's very hard to come up with an alternative explanation.

 

We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on.

 

 

 

There's no certainty in their statements. It seems to be an interesting potential find. Even if it is as you say, why is that significant, as opposed to merely interesting? Is it because we know about a new life form?

 

I feel the same way I think John feels, that this is more another attempt at justifying NASA's existence. I think if it was a finding that has a reasonable potential to benefit society or individuals, it could rise to the level of a big deal. Does it have that potential?

 

 

 

The whole basis of science is that nothing is a fact, it is all a theory that may be accepted until a better one comes along. No scientist would state these findings as a certainty - that is just not how it works, science is not religion.

 

This is a truly earth-shattering finding in the field of biology - of all of the billions of life-forms studied to date, no other has shown this structure - not one. It has the potential to expand our understanding of the fundementals of life itself. It is one of the bigest deals ever in biology.

 

Andy

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.I feel the same way I think John feels, that this is more another attempt at justifying NASA's existence. I think if it was a finding that has a reasonable potential to benefit society or individuals, it could rise to the level of a big deal. Does it have that potential?

Any guess about its value to humanity is going to be utterly speculative, couldn't the same thing have been said about penicillin, or many strange properties of elements that ended up making computers possible? So this is a bacteria with a pretty significant difference, maybe it will have properties that are valuable in medicine?
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This a bacteria that might also have impact in waste remediation, water purification (arsenic contaminated water is common). It could have minimum effect to profoundly change the world, I hope to see some nice advances from it.

 

Rod

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This a bacteria that might also have impact in waste remediation, water purification (arsenic contaminated water is common). It could have minimum effect to profoundly change the world, I hope to see some nice advances from it.

 

Rod

Ha, I just thought of the water purification myself while I was in the shower, Torrey has 'high' levels of arsenic in the drinking water. The great thing about that is that once the bacteria has removed the arsenic it would presumably not be able to replicate any more. Of course this thing lives in Mono Lake so anything approximating fresh water would kill it instantly. The possibilities however are enormous, if remote.
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Harry_Wilshusen
Nature News

 

This article is the best I have found so far at exploring the significance of the discovery (The actual research paper itself is not freely available on the internet). Read the last sentence carefully please.

 

 

Yeah.

 

"We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on," says Wolfe-Simon.

 

My guess is that is her retirement year.

 

Harry

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Nature News

 

This article is the best I have found so far at exploring the significance of the discovery (The actual research paper itself is not freely available on the internet). Read the last sentence carefully please.

 

 

Yeah.

 

"We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on," says Wolfe-Simon.

 

My guess is that is her retirement year.

 

Harry

 

So what??? Many of us feel that there is nothing wrong with devoting your life to a job that helps move science along. Are you saying Harry that we shouldn't study our world? That government should play no part in funding the scientific community (something that has been going on since the dawn of civilization)?

 

Interested to understand your comment in context before I make assumptions about why you posted it.

 

 

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From the articles,

 

Potentially cross phosphorus off the list

 

I will conservatively say that it's very hard to come up with an alternative explanation.

 

We have 30 years of work ahead to figure out what's going on.

 

There's no certainty in their statements. It seems to be an interesting potential find. Even if it is as you say, why is that significant, as opposed to merely interesting? Is it because we know about a new life form?

 

I feel the same way I think John feels, that this is more another attempt at justifying NASA's existence. I think if it was a finding that has a reasonable potential to benefit society or individuals, it could rise to the level of a big deal. Does it have that potential?

 

 

I guess it has a lot to do with which quotes you pick.

From the same article...

 

A bacterium found in the arsenic-filled waters of a Californian lake is poised to overturn scientists' understanding of the biochemistry of living organisms.

 

if the relatively common Halomonadaceae microbe can do it, others probably can too. "It may be an indication of this whole other world nobody has seen,"

 

etc, etc,

 

Science is an ongoing search for truth, continually trying to get closer and closer to fact and always questioning itself along the way. The constant questioning is one of the fundamental differences between science and religion, and that is not meant as a "vote" for either.

 

These findings, although certainly not 100% confirmed, point scientists in a very new direction and could have amazing implications.

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First of all, as a scientist, I must point out that no one, least of all the author, is claiming that the role of arsenic is proven at this point. However, the preliminary evidence suggests such a role, as a replacement for phosphorus. The key issue here is that role.

 

As Russell correctly points out earlier in the thread, we have seen our share of organisms thriving in hostile environments, and even feeding off of some very strange things. No one should be surprised merely by the fact that a bacterium can grow in the presence of high levels of arsenic, and in fact the authors were specifically looking for just such organisms.

 

The key distinction here is that, if borne out by further study, this organism has not merely learned to shunt energy from a strange source into the usual biochemistry, nor to merely mitigate toxic or other extreme effects, but rather, apparently, has a developed a unique biochemistry altogether.

 

As yet, it appears that it is not a completely unique biochemistry, but probably best described based on the evidence at present, as an analogous biochemistry: eg. comprised of dna, rna and lipid analogues. Never the less, this would be profound. For those not intimate with the finely tuned workings of the cell perhaps the difference is not so obvious. To those of us that have even the glancing familiarity with biochemistry that I have, it is astonishing and the implications simply run on, and on, and on.

 

If it proves out, and I am not yet convinced, the impacts to our understanding of chemistry, biochemistry and life will be profound. There will surely be significant practical impacts to technology and medicine. In terms of xenobiology, the find has a tremendous impact in proving (if true) that life can come in a broader package than we have known it. I would rate the find, again if proven out, to be in the once in 25 to 50 years level.

 

Some of you seem critical of the decision to publish at this time. From my opinion as a scientist, I really don't see how they could have sat on it any longer. It appears that they already did a very significant amount of work on this system, and learned much. The claims are properly qualified and the evidence laid out clearly. This is the way of science. Publication amounts now to an invite to the rest of the scientific world to take a look. Science is highly competitive, and yet highly collegial. Publication is a key part of science that allows for verification, alternate points of view, and expanded levels of effort. Anyone reaching this point and not publishing might well be looked down upon. Other researchers will now jump in new ways that the original research group would not have considered. We call this progress and it is how we work.

 

Personally, I will be very excited to learn if the specific cellular components do prove out to be using arsenic, as it now appears.

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Twisties,

I find that the presumptive attitude of the scientific community that thinks it understands what is happening in the universe amusing. Science thinks it has everything figured out a wham along comes something that puts it all in question and it's intellectual tizzie time.

Why not drop the mantle of assured knowledge and just marvel at what discloses itself as an other interesting lesson.

Oh, and don't stand too close to the edge of the world, you'll fall off and the turtle will eat you. Everything is possible.

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Twisties,

I find that the presumptive attitude of the scientific community that thinks it understands what is happening in the universe amusing. Science thinks it has everything figured out a wham along comes something that puts it all in question and it's intellectual tizzie time.

Why not drop the mantle of assured knowledge and just marvel at what discloses itself as an other interesting lesson.

Oh, and don't stand too close to the edge of the world, you'll fall off and the turtle will eat you. Everything is possible.

 

I find the ignorance and false presumptions about science in the non-science community to be alarming.

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Twisties,

I find that the presumptive attitude of the scientific community that thinks it understands what is happening in the universe amusing. Science thinks it has everything figured out a wham along comes something that puts it all in question and it's intellectual tizzie time.

That's exactly the opposite of what the scientific community believes - any scientist worth talking to will tell you we know very little about how the universe works. Is that really a good reason to stop trying? Should the ancient Greeks have stopped?
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Who said anything about stop trying? The grand astonishment is what I was referring to. Whoda thunk the worms feeing off the vents at the bottom of the ocean? I love it when the Scientific community gets all high pitched squeally when they get photos of volcanism on another planets moon or see an asteroid plow into the cloudy depths far from earth. Golly, Bill, I didn't think the clouds would smooth over in less that 10 Thou years.

Perspective of the Luddite community. Maybe it just the way Katie Couric presented it.

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Who said anything about stop trying? The grand astonishment is what I was referring to. Whoda thunk the worms feeing off the vents at the bottom of the ocean? I love it when the Scientific community gets all high pitched squeally when they get photos of volcanism on another planets moon or see an asteroid plow into the cloudy depths far from earth. Golly, Bill, I didn't think the clouds would smooth over in less that 10 Thou years.

Perspective of the Luddite community. Maybe it just the way Katie Couric presented it.

Oh, your watching TV scientists, that probably explains it.

 

Personally I'm happy for scientists to get excited about new discoveries, they make science exciting and fun.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Who said anything about stop trying? The grand astonishment is what I was referring to. Whoda thunk the worms feeing off the vents at the bottom of the ocean? I love it when the Scientific community gets all high pitched squeally when they get photos of volcanism on another planets moon or see an asteroid plow into the cloudy depths far from earth. Golly, Bill, I didn't think the clouds would smooth over in less that 10 Thou years.

 

Well yeah, who woulda thunk the worms feeding off the vents at the bottom of the ocean? Until you've learned about them, they're completely unheard of, and everything about them (they live in a pressure/temperature/chemical environment that's hostile to the terrestrial life we're familiar with) is so bizarre that, no, no one woulda thunk it. And even after you've heard about them, they're pretty amazing to contemplate.

 

Astonishment is not out of place when seeing something never seen before. If every form of life observed to date uses phosphorus in its DNA, I think it's entirely appropriate to be dazzled and shocked when discovering one that uses arsenic instead.

 

Even if one believes in the existence (or possibility) of extraterrestrial life, it's still going to be a mind-blowing revelation if/when we make contact.

 

Now for the bad news: there are questions about the accuracy of the research, with some folks claiming that arsenic was not actually part of the DNA.

 

And this is where science is supposed to show its stuff: many other researchers will now attempt to repeat NASA's results. If they succeed, it will lend credence to NASA's discovery; if they fail (and by "fail" I mean if they are unable to duplicate NASA's results in a carefully-controlled, independent experiment), it will cast doubt on NASA's results. Many independent failures will result in NASA's results being tossed in the trash. No matter what, science will move us closer to knowing one more truth about the universe around us.

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I suspect there will be detailed structural data on the dna, rna and lipids shortly. They are no doubt working on crystal structures, nmr studies, sequences (how would the sequencing chemistry be affected, and will standard replication techniques work... no, they couldn't) and other structural and chemical assays.

 

I don't think this controversy will last very long. These techniques should be definitive.

 

I am not convinced that the researchers are correct, but it is clear that the critics argument does not explain the data.

 

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"they make science exciting and fun."

 

Bill Nye, the fainting Science guy.

I really like Dr.Neil Degrasse Tyson. He makes the truth and the way very entertaining.

Some of you guys are getting so deep into these solemn responses I may have to get out my old really tall Frank Thomas boots to tromp through it all. Or if I just find my waders somewhere out in the Black Hole of a garage.....just next to the gas giant orbiting too close to the double star set to be possible as we understand quantum physic.

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