Jump to content
IGNORED

I think we are about to learn a lot about our world - Wikileaks...


Twisties

Recommended Posts

John Ranalletta

At least we know a little more about Assange. Seems he's a two-bit blackmailer.

 

 

WIKILEAKS' Assange Will Release Encrypted Files If Arrested...

Link to comment
At least we know a little more about Assange. Seems he's a two-bit blackmailer.

 

 

WIKILEAKS' Assange Will Release Encrypted Files If Arrested...

 

So let me get this straight. Governments can play hardball and Assange can't?

 

Frankly, given the announced intentions of a number of world governments to find some way to get him, government interference in his operations, and all the rest, he'd be a fool not to announce something like this.

 

 

Link to comment

He has no right to release the operational information that he already has. Releasing a list of names of those helping arrest the key insurgent leaders in Afghanistan should be treated as treason and he should hang.

 

We work everyday with individuals willing to put their lives on the line so that their lives and the lives of the country men and women might one day be just a little better. I have to cancel missions because these brave individuals are compromised and executed.

 

Why should we treat that POS any different?

 

Just my .02 cents.

Link to comment
He has no right to release the operational information that he already has. Releasing a list of names of those helping arrest the key insurgent leaders in Afghanistan should be treated as treason and he should hang.

 

We work everyday with individuals willing to put their lives on the line so that their lives and the lives of the country men and women might one day be just a little better. I have to cancel missions because these brave individuals are compromised and executed.

 

Why should we treat that POS any different?

 

Just my .02 cents.

 

A big thanks for your service Steve and I'll add my .02 to that pot....This guy would be a good target for a Predator....

Link to comment
John Ranalletta
At least we know a little more about Assange. Seems he's a two-bit blackmailer.

 

 

WIKILEAKS' Assange Will Release Encrypted Files If Arrested...

 

So let me get this straight. Governments can play hardball and Assange can't?

 

Frankly, given the announced intentions of a number of world governments to find some way to get him, government interference in his operations, and all the rest, he'd be a fool not to announce something like this.

 

Let me get this straight..

 

What is it about dealing in stolen goods that merits your respect?

Link to comment

I can't help but feel a measure of respect for his courage and ability to act as a lone wolf against a degree of pressure that I can not even conceive of. But that doesn't mean I respect him overall, nor approve of his actions. Frankly, nothing I have said here previously goes to respect. Opposition to irrational derision is not the equivalent of respect.

 

This thread started out about the impacts of the latest round of leaks. So far little impact has been noted, and a number of folk have opined that there is almost none. Only Steve Herbert has cited an actual significant negative impact, and that after my previous post. The rest has been nattering about possibilities of impacts to diplomacy, but nothing hard.

 

And yet, folks are calling for Assange to be murdered, accusing him of blackmail, and otherwise expressing outrage. I am having a hard time mustering the kind of feelings I had for Timothy McViegh or the DC car trunk snipers.

 

So far, at least as in so far as I can tell, Assange has merely exercised freedom of the press. Leaks have been a fact of government life forever, and will remain so. Assange didn't leak anything, he is in the role of a newspaper, publishing material others have leaked. He is charged with no crime, and likely his activities are constitutionally protected. I find it absurd and disturbing that folk are going nuts calling for his head. Again, that doesn't equate to respect or approval.

 

Given our long and storied history of leaks and their role in our society, I have a hard time condemning the man just because we don't like this particular set. It seems to me his schtick differs from previous leaks only in quantity and means in our electronic age.

 

I guess in my mind I'm still waiting to hear from those of you so incensed just what justifies that position. How do you justify calls for predator attacks or trying for treason? Treason... how can he betray something he is not even a member of? Maybe I need to read this thing over again, but I don't really recall much rational support for these extreme positions at the moment. I started this thread to be informed and stimulate discussion though, and I very much welcome a hearty response. Lets hear it: What has Assange done that is so wrong? How is he any different than any other reporter or news organization? What is your rationale for charges or action? How will these leaks impact the world?

 

 

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

I just came in to possession of a list of credit card security data and your name and info's on the list. As Assange would say, "information wants to be free", so I'm posting it on a web site.

 

Happy?

 

...and, your "not much damage" argument is a good one as well. An armed robber who only gets $5 from a bank robbery should be sentenced to a shorter term than a robber who gets $500?

Link to comment

Now he's disclosing undersea communications lines, mines, food suppliers, manufacturers of weapons components, and vaccine factories. A hitlist for terrorists. We don't NEED to invoke any laws to bring him down. He just needs to vanish without a trace. Suddenly.

Link to comment
Now he's disclosing undersea communications lines, mines, food suppliers, manufacturers of weapons components, and vaccine factories. A hitlist for terrorists. We don't NEED to invoke any laws to bring him down. He just needs to vanish without a trace. Suddenly.

 

Information which is largely public, already disseminated to 2.5 million government employees and contractors, and almost certainly already known to anyone looking for it.

 

Edit: Maybe it's about time WE realize how vulnerable we are, the terrorists certainly know.

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Don't make excuses because it serves your cause, Jan. Theft is theft. We leave thousands of fountains, park benches and flower vases unguarded in parks across the US. That does not excuse their theft and wanton destruction. You are condoning illegal behavior. There's no other way to look at it.

 

 

Link to comment

John, when you can distinguish between the vast array of leaks published by the regular news organizations, and this, then I'll be ready to take you seriously.

Link to comment

Opposition to irrational derision is not the equivalent of respect.

 

 

uh-huh

 

 

The guy is a knucklehead. I believe that what he is doing hurts our overall security/diplomatic cause. I can see why there is "irrational derision".

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Assange's looking for someone in the US to stash a hard drive until he can publish it's contents. Would you stash it for him? Why or why not?

Link to comment
Don't make excuses because it serves your cause, Jan. Theft is theft. We leave thousands of fountains, park benches and flower vases unguarded in parks across the US. That does not excuse their theft and wanton destruction. You are condoning illegal behavior. There's no other way to look at it.

 

There are certainly other ways to look at it. One just has to be willing to look.

 

Theft is taking with an intent to permanently deprive another. Data simply does not fit the definition of theft, and it is simply incorrect to refer to the copying of data as theft. No one has been deprived of this data. The data hasn't been destroyed. The possessor of the data has not been dispossessed of it.

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Someone, somewhere diverted information that s/he vowed under oath to protect from disclosure. Okay, that's not stealing. Let's give 'em all congressional medals of honor and throw a concert for them at the Kennedy center.

Link to comment
You are condoning illegal behavior. There's no other way to look at it.

 

I don't see that at all. Not even close to "condoning." You seem to be equating an opposition to an extra-judicial killing as condoning. Sorry, but they are simply not the same thing at all.

 

 

Link to comment
Someone, somewhere diverted information that s/he vowed under oath to protect from disclosure.

 

That person deserves to be prosecuted, and as has been noted, a suspect is in custody. Throw the book at 'em.

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Greg's already proven there's no harm and no foul. Hell, I'm good with that now that I know he'd not be concerned if someone hacked his servers and copied all the data there.

 

According to Greg, I can download all the confidential info from his servers I can find and not be guilty of any crime. I just learned that being complicit in the the copying and distribution of confidential data is not stealing.

 

Hacker's creed rules.

# Access to computers - and anything which might teach you omething about the way the world works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to the Hands-On imperative!

 

# All information should be free.

Link to comment
Greg's already proven there's no harm and no foul. Hell, I'm good with that now that I know he'd not be concerned if someone hacked his servers and copied all the data there.

 

Hacking the servers I'm responsible for is certainly illegal, and I would be concerned if someone did so. That has nothing to do with whether Assange stole data.

 

According to Greg, I can download all the confidential info from his servers I can find and not be guilty of any crime. I just learned that being complicit in the the copying and distribution of confidential data is not stealing.

 

If a server owner makes data available, it generally can be downloaded freely.

 

That's not really what's at issue in the WikiLeaks situation. I don't believe anyone has suggested that Assange hacked systems, or that he even accessed data from government computers that was inadvertently made public. He received data and published it. He may have committed ethical and moral violations, but I fail to see what that has to do with you conflating him with the person who actually violated a duty. Assange has no duty to keep the US's secrets secret.

Link to comment
Greg's already proven there's no harm and no foul. Hell, I'm good with that now that I know he'd not be concerned if someone hacked his servers and copied all the data there.

 

Hacking the servers I'm responsible for is certainly illegal, and I would be concerned if someone did so. That has nothing to do with whether Assange stole data.

 

According to Greg, I can download all the confidential info from his servers I can find and not be guilty of any crime. I just learned that being complicit in the the copying and distribution of confidential data is not stealing.

 

If a server owner makes data available, it generally can be downloaded freely.

 

That's not really what's at issue in the WikiLeaks situation. I don't believe anyone has suggested that Assange hacked systems, or that he even accessed data from government computers that was inadvertently made public. He received data and published it. He may have committed ethical and moral violations, but I fail to see what that has to do with you conflating him with the person who actually violated a duty. Assange has no duty to keep the US's secrets secret.

 

It is not just US secrets. You cannot understand the impact that his actions have caused and I don't expect the vast majority to. This is a world wide problem for many governments. I am no legal-beagle and I could care less about his rights and freedom of speech. He crossed the line and is a flagrant arrogant a-hole. He needs to be tried for his actions.

Link to comment
Survived-til-now
Now he's disclosing undersea communications lines, mines, food suppliers, manufacturers of weapons components, and vaccine factories. A hitlist for terrorists. We don't NEED to invoke any laws to bring him down. He just needs to vanish without a trace. Suddenly.

 

Information which is largely public, already disseminated to 2.5 million government employees and contractors, and almost certainly already known to anyone looking for it.

 

Edit: Maybe it's about time WE realize how vulnerable we are, the terrorists certainly know.

 

Jan,

 

"Largely" public, "almost certainly" already known.....

 

Anonimity is the first layer of security, people may know that there is a "something" there but not what it does nor how important it is, and in my experience the public are not particularly interested enough to try and find out, or to give them their credit, they recognise that it is not in their national interest to find out and certainly not to talk about it.

 

Then someone comes along and points a spotlight on a number of "vital" installations/interests and suddenly that first layer is stripped away. In some instances the interest can be so vital that any weakening in security cannot be tolerated and the interest/facility will have to be moved.

 

I'll bet that latest leak has just cost the US a trainload of dollars and you will be paying along with other taxpayers.

Link to comment
Now he's disclosing undersea communications lines, mines, food suppliers, manufacturers of weapons components, and vaccine factories. A hitlist for terrorists. We don't NEED to invoke any laws to bring him down. He just needs to vanish without a trace. Suddenly.

 

Information which is largely public, already disseminated to 2.5 million government employees and contractors, and almost certainly already known to anyone looking for it.

 

Edit: Maybe it's about time WE realize how vulnerable we are, the terrorists certainly know.

 

Jan,

 

"Largely" public, "almost certainly" already known.....

 

Anonimity is the first layer of security, people may know that there is a "something" there but not what it does nor how important it is, and in my experience the public are not particularly interested enough to try and find out, or to give them their credit, they recognise that it is not in their national interest to find out and certainly not to talk about it.

 

Then someone comes along and points a spotlight on a number of "vital" installations/interests and suddenly that first layer is stripped away. In some instances the interest can be so vital that any weakening in security cannot be tolerated and the interest/facility will have to be moved.

 

I'll bet that latest leak has just cost the US a trainload of dollars and you will be paying along with other taxpayers.

 

Agreed. Definitely damaging. But not cause for immediate panic.

 

If we are going to get into this extra-judicial killing and disappearances business for everyone we think says something damaging, I just want to know when the folk I find really damaging are gonna get it. I think there is a whole crew that far exceeds Assange.

 

In fact, now that we have discovered that freedom of speech and press have a cost that we are no longer willing to bear, why don't we junk the constitution altogether (and it's British and other Western equivalents)?

Link to comment

I just wish there was somethin in all this stuff that surprised me.

 

Maybe some good JFK conspiracy info.

 

Some good area 51, UFO, Men in Black stuff woulda been cool.

 

Maybe where we knew there was no WMD in Iraq and went to steal their oil and avenge the father of a former pres.

 

 

Maybe how 41(then VP elect) secretly met with the Iranians to make sure they didn't release the hostages till Reagan had taken the oath.

 

 

Instead we find out AGW has some politics in it.

 

The Saudis give money to terrorist.

 

Iran is meddling in Iraq and Afgan.

 

 

The State Department investigates other world leader's personal lives.

 

Bureaucrats act like little frat buddies when they communicate between each other.(Kinda like I do with my friends on FB)

 

It may have done some damage, maybe a lot of damage I ain't qualified to judge, but for me it just hasn't changed my mind about anything or anyone. Maybe cause I always figured this is what goes on behind the scenes.

 

 

I have to get back to my Mandarian language class now, call me if anything new comes up.

 

:wave:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
I have to get back to my Mandarian language class now, call me if anything new comes up.

 

:wave:

 

 

 

Assange has been arrested in London against an European Arrest Warrant on rape charges.

 

BTW, for those accusing Assange of treason, he is an Australian, not an American - he cannot commit treason against the USA - unlike the US citizen who downloaded the data in the first place.

 

Andy

Link to comment

The actions being taken against Assange remind me of the 1998 Will Smith movie, Enemy of the State. Get a government (in this case, multiple governments) mad at you, and life can become pretty miserable. I'm not saying I have any sympathy for Assange, who is being royally (and multiply) screwed, but it's an interesting display of power. Next, I expect the Australian government to come up with some violation that has a better chance of sticking than a rape charge in Sweden, which is likely to end up as a "He said, She said" case. The feds didn't convict Al Capone of any number of crimes, but "only" tax evasion, and I suspect that Assange awaits a similar fate.

Link to comment
Dennis Andress

We have learned a lot about our world.

We've learned that a lot of information is best shared in confidence.

We've learned that people get hurt, or worse, when that confidence is broken.

We've learned that the powerful are jealous of their secrets.

We've learned that threatening to release more secrets does not insure one's security.

 

Funny, I learned all that by 2nd grade...

 

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Greg, Jan would argue that you put information on servers and connected the servers to the web. What did you expect? Certainly, that makes you culpable if I happen to stumble on a uname and pword that gain entry.

 

Also, let's say "hacking" in is a crime. If I copy the data, you've said it's not theft since I didn't deprive you of your use of it. So, while I might be guilty of some misdemeanor, again according to Jan and you (as I read your posts), my ally could publish all the data sans any jeopardy at all since he's not in possession of stolen property.

 

...and, according to Jan, if the university tries to play "hard ball" and prosecute the ally who is attempting to publish the data, that's even more reason to publish.

 

Gosh. I'm glad I'm getting all this straight.

Link to comment
Greg, Jan would argue that you put information on servers and connected the servers to the web. What did you expect? Certainly, that makes you culpable if I happen to stumble on a uname and pword that gain entry.

 

As I've already written, it would make me culpable. I believe my management feels that it would make me culpable. (Even my government employer management, who you tend to say ignore accountability and responsibility.)

 

Also, let's say "hacking" in is a crime. If I copy the data, you've said it's not theft since I didn't deprive you of your use of it. So, while I might be guilty of some misdemeanor, again according to Jan and you (as I read your posts), my ally could publish all the data sans any jeopardy at all since he's not in possession of stolen property.

 

Why do you think it would be a misdemeanor? Federal (and state) computer protection laws are fairly strict.

 

You're conflating concepts repeatedly.

 

Gosh. I'm glad I'm getting all this straight.

 

You may be getting it straight, but I see no evidence of that in this post.

Link to comment
John Ranalletta

Now I'm confused. The fed's wrath would hard on anyone breeching your servers; copying data; and publishing same. Why wouldn't Assange feel the same wrath? What makes your data more important than diplomatic cables on secure federal servers?

Link to comment
Now I'm confused. The fed's wrath would hard on anyone breeching your servers; copying data; and publishing same. Why wouldn't Assange feel the same wrath? What makes your data more important than diplomatic cables on secure federal servers?
Because he hasn't committed a crime? He simply distributed the data just like the The Guardian and the New York Times and all the other newspapers and web sites have. The crime was committed by the person that took it from the data source against the terms of their agreement with the government. Wikileaks is not responsible for the data escaping the government systems.
Link to comment
Greg, Jan would argue that you put information on servers and connected the servers to the web. What did you expect? Certainly, that makes you culpable if I happen to stumble on a uname and pword that gain entry.

 

Also, let's say "hacking" in is a crime. If I copy the data, you've said it's not theft since I didn't deprive you of your use of it. So, while I might be guilty of some misdemeanor, again according to Jan and you (as I read your posts), my ally could publish all the data sans any jeopardy at all since he's not in possession of stolen property.

 

...and, according to Jan, if the university tries to play "hard ball" and prosecute the ally who is attempting to publish the data, that's even more reason to publish.

 

Gosh. I'm glad I'm getting all this straight.

 

No John, I would not argue any of those things. Please try to state your points without making up fantasy positions regarding my pov and posting them as fact.

Link to comment
I guess in my mind I'm still waiting to hear from those of you so incensed just what justifies that position. How do you justify calls for predator attacks or trying for treason?

Jan, it boils down to quite simple - Shoot the Messenger.

 

People seem to be quite conveniently forgetting the fact that Assange didn’t source the information, someone else did. His organization just made it available to a larger audience.

 

 

I find it astonishing about how little conversation is going on about what’s in the leaks/”cables” vs. that they were leaked. Where’s the outrage over what the USA said/did in them? (A bit of rhetorical question, there’s plenty of outrage outside of the USA.)

 

Link to comment
Assange has been arrested in London against an European Arrest Warrant on rape charges.

Andy,

 

Let’s not overstate the situation though, Assange is wanted for questioning in Sweden regarding sex crimes, which can be a whole range of things. The word “Rape” has not (to my knowledge) been used.

 

At this point, he has not been charged with any crime anywhere in the world.

 

 

“Innocent until proven guilty” anyone?

 

Link to comment
Assange has been arrested in London against an European Arrest Warrant on rape charges.

Andy,

 

Let’s not overstate the situation though, Assange is wanted for questioning in Sweden regarding sex crimes, which can be a whole range of things. The word “Rape” has not (to my knowledge) been used.

And we may never know as Sweden's laws prevent the release of such information to protect the victim.
Link to comment
Assange has been arrested in London against an European Arrest Warrant on rape charges.

Andy,

 

Let’s not overstate the situation though, Assange is wanted for questioning in Sweden regarding sex crimes, which can be a whole range of things. The word “Rape” has not (to my knowledge) been used.

And we may never know as Sweden's laws prevent the release of such information to protect the victim.

 

description of charges with timeline

Link to comment

...and now it appears that we have a full scale cyberwar going on, perpetrated by surrogates on both sides of the issue using various DOS and DDOS techniques with assaults on various third party players in governments and industry and on WikiLeaks itself. There are reports that the internet in general, along with various key sites and services have been impacted.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

Thanks for the link. Like a lot of these similar situations; a lot has yet to be sorted out.

 

Regardless of how the sex alligation, or anything related to the publishing of leaked information eventually sorts out, what I find at least as disturbing is the rising sentiment of what I can only call vigilante justice. These cries for throwing out the due process system for ‘Get a rope!’ Can this trend serve us well in any way?

 

And I think it’s laughable ironic that sometimes it’s the very same people who are strong constitutionalist out of one side of their mouth, who in the next breath call for a key part of it be discarded out without hesitation when a particular circumstance comes along that they disagree with! I just what to shake them, “Will you just listen to yourself for a second!”

 

Link to comment
...and now it appears that we have a full scale cyberwar going on, perpetrated by surrogates on both sides of the issue using various DOS and DDOS techniques with assaults on various third party players in governments and industry and on WikiLeaks itself. There are reports that the internet in general, along with various key sites and services have been impacted.

 

 

Yes, it appears pretty crazy . . . electrons are racing across the globe every which way, in attempts to do dastardly things to others' servers. Absolutely nuts.

Link to comment

What is going on right now is History in the making. Regardless of political views or wikileaks, this is amazing. Its literally a type of global war that is going on, and the soldiers are not carrying guns but rather DDOS skills and information. The fatalities are websites. The impact, potentially huge. This war is not one country against another. Its one opinion against another.

WWi(world war of the internet).

 

Link to comment
What is going on right now is History in the making. Regardless of political views or wikileaks, this is amazing. Its literally a type of global war that is going on, and the soldiers are not carrying guns but rather DDOS skills and information. The fatalities are websites. The impact, potentially huge. This war is not one country against another. Its one opinion against another.

WWi(world war of the internet).

 

Very perceptive comment. Thank You.

Link to comment
What is going on right now is History in the making. Regardless of political views or wikileaks, this is amazing. Its literally a type of global war that is going on, and the soldiers are not carrying guns but rather DDOS skills and information. The fatalities are websites. The impact, potentially huge. This war is not one country against another. Its one opinion against another.

WWi(world war of the internet).

 

Frankly, DDOSes are hardly new, even on a broad scale. They've even been used against governments -- some even claim by governments.

 

However, "war" is an extreme word, and hardly applicable to much of anything that happens online. A few isolated attacks at best. Let's not overstate what's going on.

Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday

If it's war, then I guess I'm collateral damage. I can't log onto PayPal right now to get a customer's shipping address, and I'm assuming this is due to the DDoS attack that's reportedly under way against PayPal along with Visa and Mastercard...

 

:lurk:

Link to comment

(Ominous music score as text scrolls across the screen a la Star Wars intro)

 

Prologue:

The year is 2084. All commerce is accomplished digitally. The last shopping mall was demolished 40 years ago. A global war is being waged for ultimate control of all digital commerce and knowledge, by the Terhackerists, formed in the ancient year of 2011 when the terrorists and hackers joined forces in a synergistic merger. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101208/ap_on_hi_te/wikileaks

The USE (United States of the Earth) is powerless to stop them....it seems.....

 

(feel free to add chapter 1 and so on...)

(or maybe this should be a new thread)

Link to comment
(Ominous music score as text scrolls across the screen a la Star Wars intro)

 

Prologue:

The year is 2084. All commerce is accomplished digitally. The last shopping mall was demolished 40 years ago. A global war is being waged for ultimate control of all digital commerce and knowledge, by the Terhackerists, formed in the ancient year of 2011 when the terrorists and hackers joined forces in a synergistic merger. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101208/ap_on_hi_te/wikileaks

The USE (United States of the Earth) is powerless to stop them....it seems.....

 

(feel free to add chapter 1 and so on...)

(or maybe this should be a new thread)

 

Chapter 2 (now available in 11 languages)

 

Members of (ICE)-"Internet Control of the Earth" former members of an outlawed network site devoted to BMW motorcycles were having a secret meeting to insure that information continues in regards to the K1300GT which some still have not been able to get fixed.

Any and all other information in the War of Words was deemed non essential by the board of Directors.

Link to comment

TIME has an interesting article on the asymmetrical warfare aspect of this affair, as well as an insight as to why Pfc Manning was able to download the data:

 

...Thanks to an imperative from then commander of the U.S. Central Command David Petraeus and others to share information with allies on improvised explosive devices and other threats, the Central Command allowed the downloading of data from its secret in-house network, SIPRNet, to removable storage devices, officials tell TIME. The information was then carried to computers linked to secret networks used by allies and uploaded. The process was derisively called "sneaker net," because it was so inefficient, although it replaced the prior need to manually retype all information into the allied computers.
Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...