Clutch is slipping under hard acceleration....need advice

[leeinmemphis]

Hey everyone,

 

I just picked up an '02 RT 21000 miles this week. I managed to put about 1500 miles on it over the long weekend. This morning as I was leaving Gatlinburg I noticed that the clutch was slipping a little under hard acceleration. On the way home(just over 400 miles) while on the interstate if I did a fairly hard roll on the throttle the clutch would slip. Given that the clutch is hydraulic I was wondering if there is possibly something that needs to be adjusted or am I going to be due for a new clutch? I am going to be doing a FULL service on the bike. I'm going to do the 24k service and change alt belt, flush brakes/clutch fluid, lube driveshaft etc. Basically I want to service the bike like it has never been touched then go from there.

 

Any advice on my clutch situation would be appreciated.

[dan cata]

You will need to change at least the friction plate. While you are in there, also change the slave cylinder.

 

At that mileage, a clutch should not be worn, so I am thinking of a bad input seal on the gearbox or a bad rear main seal on the engine.

 

I have recently changed a bad gearbox seal + clutch on a friend's k1200RS. It is not so hard to change it if you have the manual in front of you, it's only time consuming. But the winter is coming so time is not relevant

 

Dan.

[kmac]

I am having a similar problem with a NTM 96 r1100rt with only 14.5k on it when i got it 2 months ago. Now it has almost 16.5k and i have done the adjustment and then rechecked it-mine is a cable operated clutch unlike your hydraulic 1150Rt.

 

It is one of 2 things IMHO. Either someone has ridden with a heavy hand on the clutch and gotten it hot and now it is glazed, or, the clutch on these RTs are just plain fragile and cant handle being ridden very hard.

 

I have found that if i make sure that the clutch is fully engaged before applying much throttle and only down shift once the rpms are low enough, dont ride too low in the rpm range especially in higher gears, and if i am just basicly gentle with it i thing the clutch with keep running for a while. But that is no way to ride. I love this bike overall, but if these have that fragile of a clutch i will have to move it on in the future and go to some FJR or Concorse14 or something like that.

 

The ergos are awesome on this bike and the handleing is different but fun, and the brakes are great (a little heavy on the pull but good stopping and ABS) but i am really concerned with the clutch. I am used to wet multidisc clutches on bikes and i have not had any trouble with those. I raced MX for about 40 years and rarely had to change clutches in my bikes. I dont get it if BMW built these bikes that fragile. Keep in touch on what you find out with yours since i am in the same boat.

[NonComp]

Or, the splines could be getting sticky and the clutch is not fully engaging. Does the clutch lever have a smooth, even feel to it?

 

Prior to making a decision about clutch replacement, it is worth taking the time to remove the starting motor and look up inside the clutch cavity with a flashlight, and see if you can see any stray oil or red powder on the tranny input shaft splines. Either is a sign of trouble.

[leeinmemphis]

Thanks for the info everyone. After some looking online the clutch job appears to be more than I feel comfortable doing myself. I am going to call the dealer on Tuesday(I think they are closed Monday) and see what they have to say.

 

I had a new '02 back in the day and loved the bike. Of all the bikes I ever had I only regret ever selling it. I haven't really ridden the bike that hard since I have owned it. I rode kinda "sportyish" over the weekend in the mountains of east Tn but nothing that I would even call too close of overly aggressive. Hopefully I didn't just buy a headache but if I can get a fresh clutch installed and a full service on the bike then get a decent bike out of it I'll be ok.

[leeinmemphis]

Or, the splines could be getting sticky and the clutch is not fully engaging. Does the clutch lever have a smooth, even feel to it?

 

Prior to making a decision about clutch replacement, it is worth taking the time to remove the starting motor and look up inside the clutch cavity with a flashlight, and see if you can see any stray oil or red powder on the tranny input shaft splines. Either is a sign of trouble.

 

My clutch lever is smooth but I've never had a hydraulic clutch that wasn't smooth.

[kmac]

My clutch lever action is very smooth also, even though it is cable operated.

 

Lee, i feel the same way, if a clutch is the only trouble i ever have then that is not too bad. But my concern is if this is only the first issue, or the FIRST clutch, i wont be happy.

[NonComp]

For the past 3 years, I've been saying to myself, "Now that I've fixed xxxx, there really isn't anyting else that is likely to go wrong. I shouldn't have any more trouble with it for at least a couple of years."

 

That's what I keep saying to myself.

[OlGeezer]

... or, the clutch on these RTs are just plain fragile and cant handle being ridden very hard.

 

 

This is definitely not the case. I'm still on the original clutch.

[kmac]

Thanks Geezz, i am really hoping that is the case when i replace the clutch. It just seems like a fairly common issue on R bikes.

I understand on cable clutch bikes like mine that if it is ridden with the cable mis-adjusted that could easily cause premature wear, but i have read a few threads of people with the same problem even on new hydraulic clutches which should never be out of adjustments so the only way to have premature wear would be some really bad riding habits. Most people who buy BMWs are not new first time riders and are usually somewhat accomplished riders, i just worry that there is alot of failures if my assumptions are even remotely accurate.

I love the bike and will continue to give a fair shake and i am aware that all vehichles have some failures no matter how well they are made. Just have some concerns here. Thanks for the input Geezz, and i am really sorry about leaving you hanging on that ride 2 weeks ago. Hopefully soon we can take a putt, if yo will give me another chance

[NonComp]

I've been looking at a 2005 K1200LT that has 17k miles on it and a recent new clutch. It was purchased by a heavier guy and ridden two-up on a longer trip.

 

The story goes that he was used to wet clutches and managed to burn the clutch up withing 5k miles of buying the bike, in mid trip. He subsequently bought a Goldwing and the LT is now for sale. Apparently, the dealer in Seattle that replaced the clutch ($1750) found no evidence of any seal leaks (which is common on the LTs).

 

The LT has a similar clutch to the oilheads and is a heavier bike. I guess it is possible to ride these clutches to a premature failure.

 

The LT is a 'smoking hot' deal.

[kmac]

LT is a really nice bike. I used to ride my buddies once in a while, and that was a cush bike. If it is the right deal go for it.

The LT is what made me consider a BMw in the first place. I wanted something a bit sportier and i like the ergos on the RT so i ended up with this bike.

[leeinmemphis]

Question for everyone now that I have had a day or so to digest this. I paid $6500 for the bike. Is it worth another $1500 to have the clutch work done or should I start looking into parting it out and get what I can out of it? I have read some absolute horror stories on clutch replacement/transmission spline replacement etc and sometimes costing upwards of $2700. I was hoping to have several years enjoyment out of it but just wondering if I should just cut my losses???

[kmac]

No, i am not saying this stuff to freak you out. I just want to fix mine as well.

I plan on doing the clutch myself and the parts including all of the new bolts and harware is only 600 bucks. I have seen the job done in a parking lot in a day with help from others....so it cant be that hard.

[NonComp]

I bought my bike with 60k miles on it, so that gives you some context for my comments. Buyer's remorse is a tough subject. There have been others on this forum who have bought low mileage bikes that look great, and then found out that there are reasons why they were parked/put up for sale.

 

These bikes can easily go more than 100k miles, but not without some attention. Part of bike ownership for me is doing my own wrenching. On a good day, that gives me a certain level of satisifaction on top of the riding. And to be perfectly frank, I could not afford to own any BMW (or a Honda) if I was taking it to the dealer for service.

 

So, you have to ask yourself, how much do I really like this bike?

[dan cata]

No, i am not saying this stuff to freak you out. I just want to fix mine as well.

I plan on doing the clutch myself and the parts including all of the new bolts and harware is only 600 bucks. I have seen the job done in a parking lot in a day with help from others....so it cant be that hard.

 

I did mine (for the first time) in 13 hours on a very hot saturday on the GS. I can now do it in 8 hr

[OlGeezer]

I *think* most (90%?) of the clutch failures are due to main seal failures which allows oil to get on the clutch plate. The clutch itself is very stout otherwise.

 

Regarding future rides, there will be plenty of 'em. In fact, you are welcome to join me and fellow SouthCoaster Jack Bland on a Chocolate Run this Friday. I don't need any more certificates, but Jack will be going for his first. If that doesn't work, there will be others.

[leeinmemphis]

Does anyone know of a link to a thorough write up with pics on the steps to do a clutch replacement on an 1150? I have done quite a bit of work on my Harleys over the past few years(but not all of it) and have a m/c lift at the house but I'm very unfamiliar with BMW's and know absolutely nothing about the dry clutch setup in these bikes. I was planning on ordering the Von Baden DVD's to go over the routine maintenance on these bikes but I looked and he doesn't have anything covering a clutch swap.

 

I received a VERY nice pm from dan cata with alot of info on the clutch swap but would like to see if anyone knows of a step by step thread somewhere online? I admit that I am tempted to try it myself but am concerned about getting it apart and not being able to get it back together.

 

Any thoughts/advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

[NonComp]

When I bought my bike, it was not rideable due to a blown clutch. With no prior BMW knowledge and the help of the good folks on this forum and the Haynes oilhead manual (which I recommend) I was able to do this job myself.

 

There are tricks to it (such as heating the rear suspension pivot pins to 220 degrees F BEFORE trying to break them loose, and lifting/rotating the rear sub-frame rather than removing it) but it is largely like working on a two wheeled Volkswagon. Not really all that bad if you don't mind taking your time and asking questions as you go.

[kmac]

Does anyone know of a link to a thorough write up with pics on the steps to do a clutch replacement on an 1150? I have done quite a bit of work on my Harleys over the past few years(but not all of it) and have a m/c lift at the house but I'm very unfamiliar with BMW's and know absolutely nothing about the dry clutch setup in these bikes. I was planning on ordering the Von Baden DVD's to go over the routine maintenance on these bikes but I looked and he doesn't have anything covering a clutch swap

 

I received a VERY nice pm from dan cata with alot of info on the clutch swap but would like to see if anyone knows of a step by step thread somewhere online? I admit that I am tempted to try it myself but am concerned about getting it apart and not being able to get it back together.

 

Any thoughts/advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

You asked if you should part it out...try the clutch swap, and if you get in over your head and the fine folks here cant talk you thru it...then part it out. Worst case scenario

[rad]

would like to see if anyone knows of a step by step thread somewhere online?

 

Step by step PDF

PDF

 

email Ted and spend $15 for his DVD of the process on a 1100RT, almost the same as the 1150RT process

tedanddenise@comcast.net

 

service manual

BMW R1150RT service manual

 

Your future

[kmac]

BTW i just remembered who it was that changed his clutch in a parking lot while out on a ride....it was Keith aka OoPEZoO, if you wanted to ask him about it.

[tallman]

Lee,

before you jump into any big ticket items, get a second opinion, probably from a dealership, and an estimate.

Then compare costs/warrantee to doing it yourself.

You'll learn a lot doing it yourself if it comes to that but it may be the only time it is done so it may be knowledge you don't use and prefer outsourcing.

I hope it is a simple fix, good luck.

[NonComp]

I learned a lot about the bike in general that assisted me in other projects when I changed my own clutch. For example, I learned that my splines were fine, that I had a leaking input shaft seal (that I didn't know about) that I had GS intake tubes, that my final drive pivot bearings were shot, that the airbox had an oil drain (that needed draining) etc. etc.

 

Bottom line, if you intend to keep the bike long term, it is a good introduction.

 

By the way, the above link to the BMW Service Manual is copyright material, and really should be removed. You can "purchase" a download of the CD version on e-bay for $10 or so. I found the BMW Service Manual to be virtually useless, as it assumes previous training and contains virtually no how-to info. It is only useful as a cross-reference, along with the Haynes book.

[leeinmemphis]

Lee,

before you jump into any big ticket items, get a second opinion, probably from a dealership, and an estimate.

Then compare costs/warrantee to doing it yourself.

You'll learn a lot doing it yourself if it comes to that but it may be the only time it is done so it may be knowledge you don't use and prefer outsourcing.

I hope it is a simple fix, good luck.

 

Actually that is what I did. I dropped it off at the dealer today to get an estimate on the replacement. I should know something hopefully by the end of the week. He said he had another one in the back that they were starting on today with the same problem.

[notacop]

A buddy had his clutch replaced on his 'S' model. He was amazed at how well the bike ran after the dealer had done their magic on it. He had done all the basic maint on the bike but the dealer techs have more experience and when reassembling the bike from a tear down they perform a lot of steps he, and others, may not do. He be very happy with the result.

[kmac]

[

 

Actually that is what I did. I dropped it off at the dealer today to get an estimate on the replacement. I should know something hopefully by the end of the week. He said he had another one in the back that they were starting on today with the same problem.

 

Lee, please post up the results the dealer finds with the other bike at the dealer shop. I am curious as to WHY this is happening. Hopefully there will be a reason. My guess is a small seal leak that is ruining the disc. My concern is, Will a new seal FIX the leak or is there a bigger issue, like a bad crank or shaft surface that is eating the seals?

 

If just installing a new seal, installing a new clutch disc and PP, and keeping the clutch adjusted propperly will fix this problem for MANY miles ahead then im fine with it. If i replace it all only to have the new seal get eatten up and leak again in 5-10k and ruin the very expensive clutch, then im worried.

I know nothing is for sure and i dont expect everything to be perfect. i am just curious if people see this being a repeat problem on some bikes?

[rad]

[Actually that is what I did. I dropped it off at the dealer today to get an estimate on the replacement. I should know something hopefully by the end of the week. He said he had another one in the back that they were starting on today with the same problem.

 

If you have no sign of a rear main leak, oil seep at the engine/tranny junction on the right side, it is either a tranny seal or just as common, a clutch slave cylinder leak.

[leeinmemphis]

 

If you have no sign of a rear main leak, oil seep at the engine/tranny junction on the right side, it is either a tranny seal or just as common, a clutch slave cylinder leak.

 

That is what the dealer acted like it was more than likely a clutch slave cylinder leak. He said that they are not rebuildable and if that was the place of failure that I would just need to replace it and the clutch assembly.

 

 

 

 

Lee, please post up the results the dealer finds with the other bike at the dealer shop. I am curious as to WHY this is happening. Hopefully there will be a reason. My guess is a small seal leak that is ruining the disc. My concern is, Will a new seal FIX the leak or is there a bigger issue, like a bad crank or shaft surface that is eating the seals?

 

If just installing a new seal, installing a new clutch disc and PP, and keeping the clutch adjusted propperly will fix this problem for MANY miles ahead then im fine with it. If i replace it all only to have the new seal get eatten up and leak again in 5-10k and ruin the very expensive clutch, then im worried.

I know nothing is for sure and i dont expect everything to be perfect. i am just curious if people see this being a repeat problem on some bikes?

 

The dealer acted like the clutch slave is 90% of the time the cause of this type of repair. He said that usually while they are that far into it that the replace the clutch components, slave cylinder if leaking and the seals from the transmission. He said what causes most of these leaks are low mileage bikes where the seals get dried out. btw the other bike that they are doing this to is a k1200lt.

[kmac]

my bike doesnt have a slave cylinder it is a cable operated clutch.

[NonComp]

From what I've read, main crankcase seal leaks on the boxers is uncommon (but common on K bikes, such as the LT - in fact so common, that some owners drill a weep hole into the bottom of the clutch housing on the LT, so that they can catch a leak before the clutch is ruined).

 

1150 boxers have hydraulic clutches and the slave unit leaks are fairly common. Abmormal consumption of fluid at the clutch reservoir should be investigated before it works its way up the pushrod to the clutch plate.

 

1100's are more likely to have the rear input shaft seal leak than anything else, but not usually at low mileages. After '96, they started putting a felt washer on the push rod, to prevent any stray oil from crawling up to the clutch.

 

I was told that on my 1100, only 60k miles on a clutch was premature wear, likely due to rider abuse. In other words, it is normal for clutches to last a long time on these bikes.

[rad]

[That is what the dealer acted like it was more than likely a clutch slave cylinder leak. He said that they are not rebuildable and if that was the place of failure that I would just need to replace it and the clutch assembly.

 

 

I bet he did not use the the word "just".

 

Replacing the clutch, be it from slave or leaking seal is really the exact same job. Even if it is the rear engine main it is only removing a handfull more bolts to remove the flywheel to get to the seal.

 

Good luck

[leeinmemphis]

Well I talked to them today and they are going to replace clutch assembly, clutch slave, transmission seals, lube transmission splines, change all fluids, new spark plugs, adjust valves and change alternator belt for $1500. I told him to go ahead and do it. Hopefully after this point I'll have a decent bike. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[rad]

Well I talked to them today and they are going to replace clutch assembly, clutch slave, transmission seals, lube transmission splines, change all fluids, new spark plugs, adjust valves and change alternator belt for $1500. I told him to go ahead and do it. Hopefully after this point I'll have a decent bike. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

That is a good price.

 

Your bike should be in very good shape when they finish

[NonComp]

Well I talked to them today and they are going to replace clutch assembly, clutch slave, transmission seals, lube transmission splines, change all fluids, new spark plugs, adjust valves and change alternator belt for $1500. I told him to go ahead and do it. Hopefully after this point I'll have a decent bike. Keeping my fingers crossed.

It sounds like they don't know why the clutch is slipping either. Price is good. Let us know if/when they pinpoint the problem.

[leeinmemphis]

Got a call from the dealer on Friday. He said that the clutch slave was leaking as well as the transmission output shaft. He said that everything should be back together and ready to go on Tuesday.

[leeinmemphis]

I picked the bike up today and it runs like a brand new one. They also had to replace some plastic connectors on the bottom of the tank that were cracked.

[kmac]

Glad to hear it Lee.