Help! 1100rt ain't happy!

October 27, 2005

My 1100rt (96) bit the big one last week, and i'm not sure where to turn to diagnose it...

Let me give you the quick summmary...

66k miles, 1100rt (96).. going up the road, driving thru POURING rain, at 6500-7000rpm.. Bike dies.. just dies.. no cough, no surge, just dies.

I roll to a stop, start checking.. Fuel pump is working, ignition ssytem seems intact, good spin, good voltage, no fire..

Dealership gets it, hooks up and gets fault code for HAL sensor.. new sensor goes in.. Bike shows no fault codes now.. It fires and runs VERY VERY poorly. Running so poorly that they can't set the HAL sensor electronicly--have to manually set it.

They can't find anytthing (beyond the HAL which they already replaced).. They've even swapped out the Motronics and the coils from a known good bike.

I HAD thought it might be the Motronics box, but that seems to be ok...

Just got off the phone with the dealership who's been looking at the bike.. They just did a hardswap of a compatible Motronics, and the problem remains.. they're stumped at the moment, and they're also 12hrs of labor into the bike.. it's getting highly frustrating (and expensive)...

So.. it's NOT the motronics box..

The HAL sensor was blown, but the expectation is that something else in the harness is blown as well. They just can't find it.

We don't know where to look.. they've swapped most hard components--coils, motronics, a new HAL, ignitioon switch, etc..Dunno that they've check the airflow box--that's the only idea I've got at this point..

Any ideas? $$$ is getting high and I don't want to kill the project by paying them by the hour to shoot in the dark....

Any help (or beer) would be appreciated...

October 27, 2005

Likely to be the portion of the harness between the Hall sensor and the Motronic box. Same quality wires. Moisture gets in there and whacks out the signals. It is probably what killed your original. I would certainly start at the connector and work my way back.

Nothing else, other than a cracked coil makes much sense.

October 27, 2005

That's what I was afraid of...

that's gonna take some work to find for sure....

aggggg..

Anybody have a diagram of the Rbike harness, for color-coding or pinnouts on the Motronics box??

October 27, 2005

David,

There is always the chance that they put a marginal HES in it when they replaced the original. They don't 'always' set a code.

Do you have a good solid 42psi of fuel pressure?

Are the throttle body cables seated in the pulleys on both throttle bodies?

Can you be a little more descriptive on "very very poorly". It might help on our diagnosis.

I would disagree with Ed on the harness being suspect. The only harness that is prone to the insulation turning to powder is between the HES connector and the Hall Effect wires themselves. It comes from being captured up against the front cover of hte engine. They used wiring that was up to audio standards, NOT for high temperature environments on that cable.

Mick

Tucson

October 27, 2005

That sure sounds exactly like a HES sensor harness failure, but when they replace the HES sensor assembly the trouble-prone part of the harness is replaced as well since it is all one part. Is it at all possible that while replacing the HES they injected some other problem that is causing the rough running, like not connecting something up or whatever? Are you certain that they used a brand new HES sensor assembly? etc.

October 27, 2005

Sounds to me like it is still the HES. There are two sensors in there and generally only one dies. With one working the bike can sometimes kindo run on one cylinder. With my HES dead I got mine to idle very roughly but wouldn't go above 1200 rpm without dieing. Additionally, the connector where the new one plugs in can corrode so one or more wires from the new one may not be making good contact.

The insulation dies from heat so the likely places for problems in the harness insulation are hot corners. Does the harness go past the block and get too close? My HES had cracked insulation ONLY near the Crankshaft area where it appeared to be much hotter. Mine is a 95 and had 75k miles at the time.

As a last resort, I have a complete wiring harness off an RTP that I've got about $50 in that I would sell you and you can dissect it on your kitchen table to try to find where to look on the bike. This might be a lot cheaper than paying BMW labor rates for easter egging.

But the first thing I would do is take an HES off a known good bike and replace it again. If this fixes it, I would balk at paying all the hours they've spent troubleshooting after they put a bad part on.

I once bought a new radiator at the dealer for my wifes BMW 740i and brought it home and installed it and it leaked. I had to take it off and take it back. They were very apologetic for the hours I had in it and gave me about $75 of parts for free as goodwill.

Finally, when you can't find a problem, it is most likely to be located in the location where you last worked. The HES is where they last worked and I'd say the problem is still there somewhere--connectors, sensors, etc.

Good luck,

Jerry

October 27, 2005

David,
There is always the chance that they put a marginal HES in it when they replaced the original. They don't 'always' set a code.

Do you have a good solid 42psi of fuel pressure?

Are the throttle body cables seated in the pulleys on both throttle bodies?

Can you be a little more descriptive on "very very poorly". It might help on our diagnosis.

I would disagree with Ed on the harness being suspect. The only harness that is prone to the insulation turning to powder is between the HES connector and the Hall Effect wires themselves. It comes from being captured up against the front cover of hte engine. They used wiring that was up to audio standards, NOT for high temperature environments on that cable.

Mick

Tucson

Very good point.. I've heard of partially running HAL's screweing things up, but hadn't asked them about dropping a second one on it to confirm..

This is an "OFISHAL BMW" shop that does things by the book.. even the idea of throwing a used Motronics on it came across as well as GWB showing up for a DNC rally... May do that in the morning.. They threw the computer at it, got the code for a HAL, threw that on, the code faults went away, and now it's running but horribly. The rep said it's running too roughlly to be able to pull away with a person's weight on it..

They happened to have another RT avaialble with known good parts, so they swapped out the Motronics and the coils, but no dice.. The rep doesn't know if the tech swapped anything beyond this.

Also may take Jerry up on that harness offer--for dissecting pleasures.. Could be very helpful in figuring out the gremlins... Of course that's only IF we can figure out that it is the harness..

Seems to me that you generally DO NOT see two catastrophic failures simultaneously. I repair laptops all the time,and in general, you have one failure which is the primary. Sometimes there is a second/secondary/lesser failure, but they're generally not related.

I'm wondering if they just missed something. But the problem is I'm 110 miles away and don't have time to just run by & check on things...

They say the HES was new.. I'll call in the AM and ask them to try a SECOND HES just to be sure. ya never know!

October 27, 2005

Are the throttle body cables seated in the pulleys on both throttle bodies?

Echoing that. This is an easy one to botch, not be thinking of, and not check for.

Especially given that the tank has been off to get to the HAL connector.

October 27, 2005

Yeah, good point..

BTDT.. Last time I pulled the tupperware for a front end shock, I botched the cable on one side,a nd thought I'd screwed my engine all up..

Will check that with the teck in the AM.

October 27, 2005

I'm not sure what is more disturbing: That a mechanic at an official BMW shop can't figure out what is wrong with a late model bike, or that a relatively low-mileage bike (with fault code readouts even) can have such a mysterious problem that a factory trained mechanic can't fix it. Usually it is the intermittent problems that are so difficult to fix. Please let us know what the outcome of this is.

peter '73 R75/5 (if it's not running right, it's probably out of gas), '04 R1150RA (never been tested)

October 28, 2005

Are the throttle body cables seated in the pulleys on both throttle bodies?
Echoing that. This is an easy one to botch, not be thinking of, and not check for.

True enough. But frightening to think that BMW techs with this many hours into the job wouldn't think of that!

October 28, 2005

Are the throttle body cables seated in the pulleys on both throttle bodies?
Echoing that. This is an easy one to botch, not be thinking of, and not check for.

Especially given that the tank has been off to get to the HAL connector.

Ken & wedgeman:

Ditto. This is the very FIRST mistake I made with my RTP. I had the fairings off for the first time while I tried to figure out the Official (Whelen) wiring, while converting it for private use. After a whole lot of hassle (I read a schematic about as well as my wife reads a map ), I got the strobes replaced with signals, and driving and fog lights in - everything worked as planned. Put her back together, fired her up, and it ran like a truck with a couple of missing cylinders. I emailed the service department at BMW of North County (San Diego), and drove in from work later in the day. The service manager walks me out to a GS, show's me where the throttle cable seats into the adjuster, gives it a yank and says "make sure yours doesn't look like this" (i.e. hung up on the adjuster, and out of the seat). I go back in, and as soon as I sit down, the other service writer looks up from his computer and says "Hey.. are you 'Scott'? I was reading your email. Take a look at the throttle cable ....". It is such a common mistake that nearly anyone who's worked on a twin injector Beemer, including the service guys, has made the mistake before. As soon as I went home and reseated the throttle cable, the throttle bodies were back in sysc, and the bike ran like a champ.

I haven't heard anyone one mention the spark plug wires. I've heard "motronic", "coil", "Hal", "harnass", "fuel", etc., but not "plug wires". Check 'em; worked for me.

While I agree with earlier comments that a secondary problem might have been caused during the service, when someone tells me that their motor "broke during a rain storm" - it's an eletrical problem. This is at least the second post where I've heard the owner say "the service guys swapped parts with another RT..". Baloney.

1) Electrical parts can all be tested, and need to be tested at operating temperature.

2) I can swap parts. A trained, qualifed technician ought to be able to test parts, without billing you 12 hours for "part swapping training". He ought to be able to analyze and diagnose the problem from the battery through relays through wires to the sparkplug. Even if the problem is in the harnass, that can be tested too, without removing it from the bike.

3) Electrical components can wear out catastrophically, or they can wear down gradually until some incident, such as a rain storm, or another mechanical or electrical problem in the system causes the component to fail. That's why "part swapping" is a bandaid solution, while parts testing verifies what part(s) are actually broken, or weak and close to failure. "Intermittant" problems have "electrical part failure" written all over them, as wornout but still working sub-par electrical components deteriorate.

This is probably the last thing Wedgeman wants to hear, but you need to find a new service tech. If you can't do the work yourself, maybe you need to look for a foreign car (Beemer/Mercedes/Porche) electronics specialist. A good one can figure out complex electrical problems in as little as an hour (i.e. my experience with a wayward Audi I used to own).

Sorry about the problems, Wedgeman; it'd be driving me nuts too.

October 28, 2005

It fires and runs VERY VERY poorly. Running so poorly that they can't set the HAL sensor electronicly--have to manually set it.

Ask them to check the TPS,connect to the red/white stripe wire and check the voltage as you roll the throttle on smoothly,voltage should increase in a smooth linear fashion.These can get wet and and cause the same problem.

I'm not sure what is more disturbing: That a mechanic at an official BMW shop can't figure out what is wrong with a late model bike, or that a relatively low-mileage bike (with fault code readouts even) can have such a mysterious problem that a factory trained mechanic can't fix it.

BMW trains mechanics to be parts changers instead of mechanics.Yea they have manuals,but the real diagnostic info is witheld in fear the general public will get it and BMWs repair business will suffer.When a diagnostic problem arises the dealership has to call BMWNA and let them solve the problem.Nothing new,all the auto mfgs did the same for years until congress stepped in and required them to make the repair info available to everyone(for a price)Apparently does not apply to motorcycles.

Fault codes are not conclusive,if you rely on them and just purchase the part,there is a chance that part will not solve the problem.You need the diagnostic info to evaluate that piece before replacing it.Guess what ? Not available.

Give that BMW mechanic a break,its not entirely his fault if BMW won't help him out.

October 28, 2005

Ask them to check the TPS,connect to the red/white stripe wire and check the voltage as you roll the throttle on smoothly,voltage should increase in a smooth linear fashion.These can get wet and and cause the same problem.

I'm not sure what is more disturbing: That a mechanic at an official BMW shop can't figure out what is wrong with a late model bike, or that a relatively low-mileage bike (with fault code readouts even) can have such a mysterious problem that a factory trained mechanic can't fix it.

BMW trains mechanics to be parts changers instead of mechanics.Yea they have manuals,but the real diagnostic info is witheld in fear the general public will get it and BMWs repair business will suffer.When a diagnostic problem arises the dealership has to call BMWNA and let them solve the problem.Nothing new,all the auto mfgs did the same for years until congress stepped in and required them to make the repair info available to everyone(for a price)Apparently does not apply to motorcycles.

Fault codes are not conclusive,if you rely on them and just purchase the part,there is a chance that part will not solve the problem.You need the diagnostic info to evaluate that piece before replacing it.Guess what ? Not available.

Give that BMW mechanic a break,its not entirely his fault if BMW won't help him out.

Yes, I agree.. We repair a lot of Apple stuff, and the diagnostic stuff is equally worthless.. It will tell you what it can, but you can never trust a computer to combine intuition, experience, and factual data. THat requires a human interface.

I feel bad for the wrenches, as that type of info is highly annoying, coming from BMWNA. I was told by the dealer rep that they had called BMWNA for directions to look.. This is a sign to me that the tech is not really given the tools to do the job.

Just chatted with the shop. THey sounded perturbed to be asked about things so simple as the TPS and throttle body cable..

BMWNA recommended they begin tracing ground points--says there may be a bad ground somewhere.

I am pretty surprised at the possibility of MULTIPLE failures at once, in 'quasi-unrelated" areas... yes a ground point being bad MIGHT cause a HAL failure, but the way a HAL is designed, this doesn't make any sense to me...

At this point I will likely go pick up the bike and stick it in my garage, and make this a fall/winter project...

October 28, 2005

FWIW, when the HES failed on my R1100R, the dealer found no fault codes on the diagnostic analysis. The reason, I was told, was that the Motronic had no way to "know" that a crankshaft position impulse was supposed to be there or not. This was during early days of HES failure, and the dealer had a lot of trouble figuring this out--and swapped out a number of parts including the Motronic box before identifying the HES. It would seem to me that if fault codes (at least on the R1100 series) were there they should have made the fix easy. It's certainly possible that the replacement or some electrical conection disturbed by the replacement is faulty and would be worthwhile to try a new unit.

Dave

October 28, 2005

FWIW, when the HES failed on my R1100R, the dealer found no fault codes on the diagnostic analysis. The reason, I was told, was that the Motronic had no way to "know" that a crankshaft position impulse was supposed to be there or not. This was during early days of HES failure, and the dealer had a lot of trouble figuring this out--and swapped out a number of parts including the Motronic box before identifying the HES. It would seem to me that if fault codes (at least on the R1100 series) were there they should have made the fix easy. It's certainly possible that the replacement or some electrical conection disturbed by the replacement is faulty and would be worthwhile to try a new unit.
Dave

Thus, the curse of electronics modules.. One doesn't really know where to look right off..

I'm thinking I'll go pick the bike up.. The way I see it, this will save me money.. Instead of a. not having a bike to ride, which means I need to go to a shrink for my mental medication, I'll b. have a bike to work on, and c. not have to pay the shrink, AND I'll save on the mechanics cost. So I'll save $$$ on 2 fronts.. Wonder if my insurance will pay me for shop tools since they'll be saving all this money??

November 4, 2005

Well... The story continues....

I posted this on another site last night....

other unnamed location for more lively discussion (including politics)

sent a long photo email to the dealer, included all relevant info.. Called back 12hrs later.. they claim to have NOT received it... Emailed it again and they got it.. dunno what's with that..

Anyway they are to get back to me today (it's 8:30pm, so somehow I doubt they will).....

----------------

it's aftermidnight..

my bike is fixed..

I'm pissed.

$705 for a dealer to put a new HAL on, f**k up my wiring harness, and then send me back home with a dead bike (after holding it for 29 days)...

15 minutes for me to pull the tupperware and fuel tank and find the problem.. another 2:00 for me to fix the problem and reassemble the scoot....

that's the short story.. I'm too tired to pull be eloquent..

Basically the tech/wrench decided that the water protector on the HAL sensor connector wasn't necessary, and since it slowed down his removal of the HAL sensor, he went at it with a knife.

nice job, eh?? Think he could've gotten it a LITTLE more jagged..

In his haste to complete the gutting of the cover, he also cut the main wiring harness on the bike side of the connector.. severed the ground lines.

Of course this didn't slow down our rocket scientist, who installed a new HAL, read the computer printout which said it WAS getting signal (jjust didn't have a ground so it wasn't responsive enough to work).. So he assumes the problem is elsewhere. Don't bother to inspect your own work to ensure you've DONE IT PROPERLY.. Obviously "doing it properly" is not a phrase that is commonly considered, if you think that chopping off covers with a Buck knife is the best way to fix problems....

So I get billed for an additional 4 hours of bench time for the wrench to pick his butt and scratch his balls and call up BMWNA to ask them what the problem might be....

So I've got a damaged wiring harness.. I ended up having to splice the harness right there-- you can't really dissassemble that connector.. aggg..

need something for self-medicating at this point... argggg.....

Did I mention I'm pissed??

..........

just emailed these photo's (and a few others) to the dealer mgr.. Tomorrow will tell if they 'fess up..

I'm also a bit pissed that my bike is also sporting 4 OBVIOUS chips to the paint since I last saw it...NO it's not a garage queen.. but dammit at least the other scratches were blatant and ugly..

November 4, 2005

Great job documenting what you found. Try to focus on being happy that your bike is fixed. However...

Some guys expect that a dealer should kiss your feet if a technician farts in the vicinity of your bike. I'm not one of them. I'm willing to cut them some slack for being human. (But I figure since I'm human too, I'll work on my own bike, but that's another story.)

In this case, it looks like a blatant and error to be. And I can't think of any reasonable excuse for this error and for not being able to find it after the HES didn't fix it. I would expect some tech will be unemployed and the dealer will be refunding some amount voluntarily. I would push for a full refund to compensate for loss of bike use, mental anguish, and scratches on your paint. If they don't cooperate, then I'd keep going up the chain as far as I could. Small claims court would be an option in CA. With documentation like you have it would probably be a slam dunk.

They also should fix your waterproof connector. It can be very important in a rainstorm.

Thanks for posting the followup. I've been eager to hear what you found.

Good luck and enjoy your ride,

Jerry

November 5, 2005

I'm willing to cut them some slack for being human. (But I figure since I'm human too, I'll work on my own bike, but that's another story.)

In this case, it looks like a blatant and error to be. And I can't think of any reasonable excuse for this error and for not being able to find it after the HES didn't fix it.

Well, we can conclude that this a circuit tester is a totally foreign to this technician.

Also, I wouldn't be afraid of sharing the name of the BMW Dealer involved. Good work needs to be recognized </end sarcasm>.

November 5, 2005

Also, I wouldn't be afraid of sharing the name of the BMW Dealer involved. Good work needs to be recognized </end sarcasm>.

well.....

The story gets better (guess that depends upon your understanding of better)....

I'll post most of this information up. I'm not going to name the dealer, as I really want the Mgr to think thru this and I don't want to be vindictive.. Will post info in a bit about this...

November 5, 2005

You're NOT gonna believe this!!!

Back on Wednesday, I sent the SERVICE manager a lengthy email complete with photo's and an exact explanation, about 30 min's before posting to this site my discovery & repair.

I must admit, it wasn't worded as well as it could've been.. I used the photo's shown here, as well as a few other photo's to boot.. I said things that weren't the best way to say them.. Didn't cuss or raise heck or anything--just offhanded comments that this wasn't exactly rocket science, adn that it was pretty well screwed up... Heck, I may get the urge to post the letter here.. it's a bunch of work to repaginate & stuff. In hindsight I should've been a little less sarcastic.. But I *WAS* pissed that the dealer was actually the CAUSE of my problem, not the ones who actually fixed it....

Well anyway, I had sent the email on Wednesday... I hadn't heard anything by Thursday noon, so I called him and asked if he had gotten the email. "nope"... Oh, well let me send again.. Ok, while we chatted on the phone I sent it again.. "Yep, it's coming in right now. I'll just go thru it and get back to you right away." No problem.. That was 12:30 THURSDAY..

Thursday 5pm.. no call.. Ok, not a problem...

FRIDAY.. Noon, no call.. Hmm.. I'm thinking this is weird.. So I call him back. "Hey, just checking--can you get back to me on this email?" Response, a bit muted... "Let me have a little time--I'll need to write you back shortly."... Ok, no problem. At least I can ride, so I'm not toooo unhappy about not having a prompt answer...

Friday. No answer, by noon. So I called back again. Got the service manager on the phone. "Hey..... Hadn't heard back from you about that email-what can we do?" "uh, I'll make sure we get back to you this afternoon.." Oh, ok, thx.....

5:20pm Friday, got an email..

Just got the big SCREW YOU from the OPERATIONS manager, not even the service manager...

Please understand. I'm not out to screw anybody's nuts to the wall. ALL I WANNA DO IS BE TREATED WELL AND RIDE MY BIKE!

I don't plan to release dealership information or any other details unless this is not resolved in SOME sort of relatively civil manner...

November 5, 2005

Copy of the email from the dealer OPERATIONS manager....

[edited only for names, privacy, etc]

[my name]

Let me start off by saying I am glad you were able to fix you bike so that you can continue riding. I will do my best to address several of your concerns that were raised in your e-mail.

We did cut the sheath over the connector. With many older bikes, these covers dry out and make it very difficult to separate the connectors while in place. While this may not be common practice all of the time, it is certainly not unheard of for older high mileage machines. We are convinced that your old HAL unit was bad based on our diagnosis and obviously the replacement item is now functioning fine. As for the cut wire, obviously I can not verify when the wire was severed, though it is most certain that we disturbed this area during diagnosis. It is frustrating that this problem did not present itself to my technician earlier, however we are confident that we would have caught the problem during our next step of tracing ground paths.

Due to the unpredictable nature of diagnosing electrical problems, your bike was on and off the bench as often as I could get to it. Schedules do not always allow me to dedicate an unknown length of time for diagnostics. That being said, when we do find the source of a problem, it is at that time that we analyze the nature of the failure and determine what is fair to charge the customer. More often than not, the amount charged for finding the fault is far less than the time it takes. In your situation, you chose to pick up the bike before we could complete the repair. While this is always at the customers discretion, I was unable to finish the repairs, thus you were charged for the time we had in the bike.

We have been serving BMW faithful for almost 20 years. While we are not perfect, we have built our reputation on quality service. But never in that 20 years have we been treated in a more unprofessional manner than in your communication earlier. You obviously did not care for our services in the past and evidently have no intentions of employing our services in the future. We were nothing more than courteous in our efforts to assist you at a time when you were in need. For our efforts, you malign and belittle my staff in a manner that I cannot accept. For this reason, I consider this matter closed.

[managers name]

[dealership name, number etc]

November 5, 2005

You obviously did not care for our services in the past and evidently have no intentions of employing our services in the future.

Don't exactly know how the manager came to understand that I've never cared for thier services--I only go there and spend several hundred bucks about 6-8x's/year.. No, i've not had THAT bike in their shop before.. Actually ti's only needed standard maintenance stuff since I've owned it, but I bought it out of TX, and all work was done down there previous to my getting it...

I suppose since my letter caused so much grief, i should post it here for public consumption as well.. I've put it up elsewhere and was chastised for my 'caustic' and 'belittling' remarks.. so self-flogging is fine--I can deal with having stuck my foot in mmy mouth...

November 5, 2005

Hmm.

Having not seen your message, I'm not sure what the Operations Manager was responding to.

His explanation of why you were charged what you were charged makes sense to me and seems fair.

Again, depending on what you said in your email, his last two paragraphs might be a reasonable response.

November 5, 2005

So.. my earlier letter to the service manager....

This is a cut & paste.. I only removed names and addresses, to preserve the privacy.......

[Greeting to Service Mgr}

I got home with the bike and worked a full day.. Had rolled it in the shop, so at 8:30 I went and looked at it. For kicks I threw the ignition on and tried to start it.. no firing/no ignition...

So,, i figured I'd start where your guys started.. Atthe computer and HAL sensor..

Here's what I found..

Took tupperware off, then took tank off. note to self: have plugs for tank fuel lines in hand when disconnecting hoses, to avoid footbath in gasoline...

I was a little surprised to find this when i got the tank off and looked for the HAL sensor connector. Why on earth did someone cut the connector cover? It is designed to be connected and disconnected WITHOUT needing to be removed.

Please explain that to me. Is there a location in the manual that calls for cutting this off?

Here's a closeup of the handiwork, for your viewing pleasure...

chopped up--probably a pair of wire cutters or just a dull knife..

Once again, this doesn't appear to be 'by the book' repairs.. Is a Buck knife part of the normal service kit?

Closer inspection shows a couple problems with the main wiring harness. Whoever cut the clear stuff open wasn't being careful. They cut both the main shield ground AND completely severed the sensor ground line on the wiring harness side of the connector..

Nice work...

So.. Now I've got a cut wiring harness. Not to worry, I can rebuild computers, so I just had to repair it... to do so, I had to partially remove the harness and then cut down the wiring so I could splice the severed and cut wires and get it together again..Since we repair circuit boards every day we have good soldering equipment.

Of course to do so I had to cut off the remainder of the harness cover which had been so cleverly ruined... So now I have a spliced harness and a not so leak-proof connector cover. And another 2hrs total finding and repairing the harness and putting the whole scoot back together again.

Did I mention that after repair, the bike started and ran like a top immediately?

Took me an entire 2:15 from start to finish to have the bike RUNNING FINE. and fully reassembled (except for the autocom and lighting wiring, which your tech fully removed but didn't bother to put back...

Oh a few other things. your guys didn't include all the bolts.. Am missing the bolts for the air intake pipe and 2 of the tupperware bolts (which were the stainless kind btw). I know they were all there--I just added one last month about a week before I brought the bike to you..

Someone also apparently screwed wtih the ignition switch as well-it's jimmied and won't work without wiggling as well. Dunno what's up with that--but I'll have to check.

Bottom line.. After paying you for 6 hrs of labor, I had to put in another 2hrs myself to fix a problem that was caused by your tech USING THE WRONG TOOL and INTENTIONALLY damaging a wiring harness cover.

I paid 2hrs for a HAL sensor installation. Expected.. I called BMW [another dealership in the USA] and they quoted me (site unseen) a HAl sensor being a 1.5-2.0hr job.. Totally appropriate..

I paid 6hrs of time. 4 hrs of that time was for techs to screwup and then to not find their own problem.

I found this problem within 15 minutes of first looking at the bike. This time ALSO included removal of the tupperware AND the tank. And I'm not a pro--this is only the 2nd time in my life I removed an Rbike fuel tank.. I just went in and looked at the problem.

I don't think that this is appropriate AT ALL for me to have paid all the labor and time, for you to have sat on my bike for nearly 4 weeks without figuring it out. To add insult to injury, I realized that your SOP was to work on the bike if/when you had gotten around to it again.. My best guess is that it would have been months before you'd have actually figured this out, at that rate.. Meanwhile I am out a vehicle and am paying you to scratch your head....

Another minor detail is the 3 scrapes on my tupperware which weren't there when I brought the bike there. I know it didnj't happen in towing, as I was the one who loaded and unloaded the bike, and rolled it up to your door..

Please think thru this and get back to me on Thursday. I'd like to hear something from you as to reimbursement for this type of screwup. I had been given two separate warnings NOT to bring my bike to you at the beginning, due to some screw-ups 2 other individuals had, but I had faith that your shop knew what it was doing. Obviously my faith hasn't been strengthened. I know that you have ot make money to stay in business, but this is certainly NOT the type of repair that's going to build your customer base..

Thanks,

[my name]

So....

yes, obviously I portrayed an attitude.. probably not good.. Maybe I was condescending towards the tech who touched my bike.. probably wrong... *I DID apologize to the manager for this in a followup phone call*

edited to add note: I realized in looking at the calendar that I eggagerated the time--it was THREE weeks, not FOUR, as I mentioned.. ooops...

November 5, 2005

Wedgeman, I read nothing in your letter that deserved the response you got from the operations manager. In my opinion this is not a service oriented dealership and their standards are lower than the minimum. The only thing that he might have a point on is that they weren't able to complete the repair. In any case, bad, bad customer relations. If you don't get this resolved, I would say post the name of the dealer here. Obviously they are not interested in your business. Anyone can make mistakes but to claim that you disparaged the service tech is laughable and a way for him to rationalize not owning up to their incompetence. My advice is, find someone else to do the work on your bike. You have every right to be angry.

My 2C worth

Beno

November 5, 2005

At this point there is nothing more to be done in so far as acting on the dealer level.

Copy your invoice and all correspondence, keep the originals. Send copies to BMWNA, the better business bureau, and your attorney of choice. Have the lawyer write a letter stating that unless you are able to come to a better resolution in this matter it is your intent to sue. Depending on your state's small claims limits, you may be able to persue the matter there. If not, you probably will have to sue. Only you can determine if that is worth it to you in terms of time and expense.

I'd certainly be pissed and might not have been as diplomatic. Did you get your old Hall sensor back? If not, make sure you do. It would greatly strengthen your position if you were able to make the bike start and run with the old sensor.

BTW, go to the local electrical supply house (not Radio Shack) and get some of the tape designed for outdoor wiring. The guy at the counter will know. You can seal and protect that harnesss connection with this stuff. You'll have to cut if off if the need arises but at least you will have some protection.

November 5, 2005

Did you get your old Hall sensor back? If not, make sure you do.

In some (if not all) states you are legally entitled to receive the broken parts after a service job. Although by now they may have discarded it...

November 5, 2005

I agree with all the advise you've been given including get your old hall sensor back. Your attitude was quite understandable and minimal considering all you'd been through and the time of the evening. The small claims judge or BMWNA will find no problem with it. In CA small claims allows you to ask for $2500 and I would ask for every penny of it. Your eagerness to admit you were wrong with your attitude shows great professionalism on your part. You have nothing to feel bad about. I would guess that this dealer has had to deal with similar issues like this before and the way he used calm words to try to sweep it under the rug makes me think he's gotten away with it. As a matter of principle, I would pursue this to the highest levels I could and ask the judge/BMWNA to make sure he doesn't continue to provide such shoddy treatment to other customers. If you want to post his e-mail address here, I'm sure you'll get a letter writing campaign started but I don't think that is a good thing until after you have your issue settled. Also, at this site, they have a place to provide dealer feedback so others know not to go there. http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/index.php?

His attempt to unilaterally close this issue is a pure bluff. I'd like to set across the poker table from this a**hole. He clearly understands that you won't be back. I'm sure that puts you on a long list of ex customers.

Good luck,

Jerry

November 5, 2005

Wedge,

I guess you could have softened it a bit, but I don't think your message was out of line at all.

The way I read your message is that you were willing to give them a chance to "win you back" as a customer by making this right. You were clearly upset, but in your situation, who wouldn't be?

November 5, 2005

Maybe I'm missing something here....it sounds like the matter is still open.....so why are you posting all of this?

It would seem to me until the matter is settled, it would be prudent to keep the matter between you and the shop.

just my opinion

Obviously, only you and the shop know all the facts, circumstances, the verbal discussions, tone of the discussions, etc.. All of that plays into each side's position an the matter

I hope both you and the shop can come to an agreement that's satsifactory for both sides....nobody wins in these sorts of things if heels get dug-in for whatever reason.

November 5, 2005

Take a ride or drive over there, and sit down with them face to face. In a calm, nonargumentative manner, present your case, and how you believe it can be resolved fairly. Give them every opportunity to make it right. If they firmly stand their ground, thank them for their time, go home, send out your letters, talk to an attorney, and file a suit in small claims court.

Arguing with them and getting sarcastic will not win this battle. That is the quickest way for them to end the discussion and escort you off of the premises. Save the arguing for court, if it goes that far. They'd be foolish to go to court on this, as it will end up costing them more than cutting the cost of the extra labor. But if you piss them off enough with your attitude, they just may let you take them to court anyway. Too much of the time, emotions enter into these things, and people will hold firm to a position, even when they know they are in the wrong. Think of this as a business negotiation. Pounding his shoe on the table may have been effective for Khrushchev, but it probably won't work in this negotiation.

November 5, 2005

Maybe I'm missing something here....it sounds like the matter is still open.....so why are you posting all of this..

This IS still open. I posted here, because I have received numerous questions as to the issues with the machine (not necessarily with the shopin question), but the two issues became one after figuring out the problem.

It is certainly NOT my intention to spread slime around about the shop. In fact, I would certainly be happy to take this all the way to credit card charges and/or court, as well as a face-to-face with the shop owner, before I'm going to divulge the name of the shop.

I really think this is a small industry, and bikers need the shops to stay afloat. What is it going to add for the industry to have one of the FEW shops in my area of the country lose clients and have their reputation smeared?? Certainly no help that I can think of..

Of course the opposite is true as well--I'm sure that many of you would prefer to know about something likke this before dropping your bike off at a particular dealership...

I have been happy with these guys for years--I usually wrench myself, but this was the first time I took a bike to them to wrench. Of course that was one of the excuses used ("we have no history on this bike with 60k miles on it, so we have to check everything").. Somehow *I* am the bad guy cause I've not taken my bike there before.. Sorry, but I bought it 40k ago from someone on the other side of the country--why is it my fault that you can't diagnose quickly and without complication?

It's probably not great pay to wrench at a bike dealership. Parts are pricey, the work is exacting and detail-oriented. BMW riders will crap their britches if you nick their bike or adjust anything, and they expect you to kiss their feet as they walk in and their hindsides as they leave.

BTW, yes, I did request (and received) the HAL sensor when I picked up the bike.. So I have it (already ordered & received the replacement sensors to rebuild it--anybody need a nice rebuilt HAL with a good/new harness and new sensors??).

November 5, 2005

Take a ride or drive over there, and sit down with them face to face. In a calm, nonargumentative manner, present your case, and how you believe it can be resolved fairly. Give them every opportunity to make it right. If they firmly stand their ground, thank them for their time, go home, send out your letters, talk to an attorney, and file a suit in small claims court.

Agreed... I'd have ridden over this morning, but it happens to be a 3.5hr round-trip on the slab, and unfortunately I've got way too much to do around the house and at the shop..

'course if I quit posting here, I'd probably have about 8hrs/week more free time!!

November 6, 2005

Take a ride or drive over there, and sit down with them face to face. In a calm, nonargumentative manner, present your case, and how you believe it can be resolved fairly. Give them every opportunity to make it right. If they firmly stand their ground, thank them for their time, go home, send out your letters, talk to an attorney, and file a suit in small claims court.

That is how I would go. If the dealer still will not budge then I would offer to pay the standard cost of an HES sensor repair only (and some minimal diagnostic time as the original symptoms you described should have led to a rapid conclusion that the HES was bad), and not a dime for any of the subsequent diagnostic work caused entirely by their technician. If that fails I would tell them that I am going to file in small claims court and then do it. Given the evidence the 'we don't know how the wire was cut' comment is an insult to your intelligence and I would expect that the court would see it the same way. I also don't understand the comment 'For our efforts, you malign and belittle my staff in a manner that I cannot accept. For this reason, I consider this matter closed.' They screwed up, and whether you choose to have a good or bad attitude about the screw-up is immaterial as to who is at fault here. I doubt that your bad attitude to being treated as you were is an acceptable legal reason to 'consider this matter closed.' I think the court just might wrap things like actual culpability for the whole mess into the decision as well.

BTW the HES connector on my older high-miles bike was indeed stuck at first. Must have taken me an entire five minutes of fiddling to free it up without having to take a pair of wire cutters to it.

I hope you manage to work things out in a more satisfactory manner. These stories are exactly why no one touches my bike but me.

November 6, 2005

Let me ask a technical question..

Somebody here CERTAINLY has some technical experience on the HAL sensor than me.

IS THERE ANYWAY WAY that an Rbike oilhead will run ok with the black wire cut COMPLETELY THRU?

I bought this bike from a chap down in Texas several years back (off this board, if I recall correctly). I have never even pulled all the tupperware off it since then.. That was some 30-40k ago.. So there is no way that the wire could have been cut in the past several years.

IS there a chance that this wire could have been cut thru before I got the bike, and if so, could it have been working ok, all this time???

I think I know the answer, but I'm NOT a HAL expert. As was told me elsewhere--the RT wiring system is about as complex as an anvil, and it seems to me that because it fired up and ran perfectly well as soon as I repaired the harness, my assumption that the dealership cut the wire IS indeed a correct assumption..

Please enlighten me..

November 6, 2005

IS THERE ANYWAY WAY that an Rbike oilhead will run ok with the black wire cut COMPLETELY THRU?

Can't say that I've ever tried it but I sure wouldn't think so... kind of makes the 'we don't know how the wire was cut' comment just that much more hilarious. I'm sure that they would love the opportunity to explain it to a judge.

November 6, 2005

Let me ask a technical question..

Somebody here CERTAINLY has some technical experience on the HAL sensor than me.

IS THERE ANYWAY WAY that an Rbike oilhead will run ok with the black wire cut COMPLETELY THRU?

No. The black wire is the signal output for one of the two sensors on the whole HES assembly.

November 6, 2005

thx for that URL..

The wires in question:

#1 (which was cut OPEN but not cut thru, so it still worked...

#2 (cut all the way thru)

So. the lower sensor couldn't have worked, in actuality..

Which leads me to wonder why the computer diagnosis didn't show a fault code..

I KNOW that they tested it after replacing the HAL (they showed me the computer printout from the bike).. THey tested 6 or 7 other things...

My guess is that the computer doesn't fullly test BOTH upper and lower sensors to ascertain proper function--only if they're taking voltage, and possibly only a signal back from the upper. Interesting situation, I guess. I'd really like to know what it actually checks..

November 7, 2005

thx for that URL..

The wires in question:

#1 (which was cut OPEN but not cut thru, so it still worked...

#2 (cut all the way thru)

So. the lower sensor couldn't have worked, in actuality..

Which leads me to wonder why the computer diagnosis didn't show a fault code..

I KNOW that they tested it after replacing the HAL (they showed me the computer printout from the bike).. THey tested 6 or 7 other things...

My guess is that the computer doesn't fullly test BOTH upper and lower sensors to ascertain proper function--only if they're taking voltage, and possibly only a signal back from the upper. Interesting situation, I guess. I'd really like to know what it actually checks..

I don't know how they test it but if what you are talking about is just reading fault codes stored by the ECU, then that can be less than an exact science. First, the HES only puts out a signal if the engine is turning over so you'll have a fault code with a good HES if the tech doesn't know how to read it. Second, different years/versions of the ECU store/sense the faults differently. I when I switched to a newer version ECU when my HES was bad I got a repeatable fault code for HES. I didn't get that with the first one.

Also, to test the HES they need to turn the engine over. If the HES would have been working then, the engine would have started like it did once you fixed the wires.

Cheers,

Jerry

November 7, 2005

My guess is that the computer doesn't fullly test BOTH upper and lower sensors to ascertain proper function--only if they're taking voltage, and possibly only a signal back from the upper. Interesting situation, I guess. I'd really like to know what it actually checks..

Yeah, the ECU doesn't seem to give very reliable indications WRT HES problems. WHen you turn the key on, it's supposed to give you an HES error code (since it hasn't heard from the HES yet), but the code is supposed to clear as soon as you crank the engine. I've seen that code NOT disappear when cranking an engine with a healthy HES, and I've seen it not pop up when the HES was clearly diagnosed as bad (from other symptoms).

Despite that, diagnosis isn't particularly hard, even before removing tupperware. And if you've got the tupperware off, a voltmeter makes it real easy.

November 7, 2005

Wedge,

Like I said previously, the lower sensor is the 180 degree sensor. It is used by the Motronic for injector timing. Since you had spark (upper TDC sensor) it 'might' run in a 'limp' mode but it would NOT be very ridable. When they hooked up their tester AFTER they replaced the HES and cut the black wire, they 'should' have logged an 1133 error. Here are the possible errors:

Motronic Codes

0000 no further fault stored

1111 CO potentiometer

1122 Hall signal 1 <<<<< Upper Sensor

1133 Hall signal 2 <<<<< Lower Sensor

1215 Throttle butterfly angle sensor <<< TPS

1223 Engine temperature sensor

1224 Air temperature sensor

2341 Oxygen sensor at limit

2342 Oxygen sensor signal invalid

2343 mixture setting at limit

2344 Oxygen sensor shortet to ground

2345 Oxygen sensor shorted to 12V

4444 no fault stored

Keep us posted on your progress.

Mick

PS Do NOT attempt to rebuild your old HES without replacing the wires. The Hall devices rarely fail, it's usually the substandard insulation on the wires about 2" up from the Hall devices where it is clamped to the HES plate. BTDT X4

November 7, 2005

Wedge,

Motronic Codes

0000 no further fault stored

1111 CO potentiometer

1122 Hall signal 1 <<<<< Upper Sensor

1133 Hall signal 2 <<<<< Lower Sensor

1215 Throttle butterfly angle sensor <<< TPS

1223 Engine temperature sensor

1224 Air temperature sensor

2341 Oxygen sensor at limit

2342 Oxygen sensor signal invalid

2343 mixture setting at limit

2344 Oxygen sensor shortet to ground

2345 Oxygen sensor shorted to 12V

4444 no fault stored

Mick,

thx for the info.. Wonder why the unit didn't show a fault code for the lower sensor??? I saw the printout's and it didn't show any lower sensor fault (or any fault code for that matter)..

Of course, I was looking at a printout, and I don't know DEFINTIVELY that it was the printout from MY bike..

November 7, 2005

Bottom line, if your older oilhead dies suddenly in the rain there seems to be about a 95% chance that it is an HES or HES harness problem regardless of what the Motronic might say. Most of the responses to this thread were along that line and I would expect an experienced BMW tech whose services go for $75-$90/hour to know it as well.

November 7, 2005

Mick,
thx for the info.. Wonder why the unit didn't show a fault code for the lower sensor??? I saw the printout's and it didn't show any lower sensor fault (or any fault code for that matter)..

Of course, I was looking at a printout, and I don't know DEFINTIVELY that it was the printout from MY bike..

I'm not surprised they didn't have a fault listed, maybe they are as good at using the test equipment as they are at replacing parts.

Mick

November 8, 2005

I disagree entirely with those well-meaning souls who preached conciliation here. You are the customer. You paid for the dealer's time. The dealer is out NOTHING, and you are out both time and money.

We did cut the sheath over the connector. With many older bikes, these covers dry out and make it very difficult to separate the connectors while in place. While this may not be common practice all of the time, it is certainly not unheard of for older high mileage machines.

Why didn't they replace the sheath before they released the bike to you? They "broke it"; they should have repaired it (even if they charged you for the new cover, or shrink tubing, etc.). Apparently, their policy for "older bikes" is to "rip and tear 'em up".

We are convinced that your old HAL unit was bad based on our diagnosis and obviously the replacement item is now functioning fine. As for the cut wire, obviously I can not verify when the wire was severed, though it is most certain that we disturbed this area during diagnosis. It is frustrating that this problem did not present itself to my technician earlier, however we are confident that we would have caught the problem during our next step of tracing ground paths.

"Next step of tracing ground paths"?? They had the bike 3 weeks. They could have rewired everything on the bike. They were clueless. OH, and "frustrating that this problem did not present itself to my technician earlier". NOW we understand. BMW bike are so sophisticated that they present their own problems, e.g. "Hey dummy, why don't you look over here at the wire you cut when you were tearing the hell out of my wiring harnass with your tin snips...". No wonder their tech was lost. Your "BMW self-presentation" system was off-line. Maybe it's a fuse or something....

Second, The bike "died" in a storm. The FIRST thing any competent tech would do is inspect the wiring. The BMW tech was too busy reading codes and swapping parts to perform any real analysis of the actual bike.

Due to the unpredictable nature of diagnosing electrical problems, your bike was on and off the bench as often as I could get to it. Schedules do not always allow me to dedicate an unknown length of time for diagnostics.

His schedule is not your problem. He accepted your bike for repair, he BILLED you for work, and he had an absolute obligation to fix your bike in a timely manner, or refund your money, return the bike, and send you on your way to someone who could. A competent mechanic with even redumentary analytical skills could haven't diagnosed the problem. If not, they always had the option of "subbing" the work to a local electrical specialist who knows how to read a schematic diagram.

And electrical problems are not as "unpredictable" as this manager seems to believe. Take my word for it. Wiring harnasses fail every single time they're cut. Try it for yourself!

That being said, when we do find the source of a problem, it is at that time that we analyze the nature of the failure and determine what is fair to charge the customer. More often than not, the amount charged for finding the fault is far less than the time it takes. In your situation, you chose to pick up the bike before we could complete the repair. While this is always at the customers discretion, I was unable to finish the repairs, thus you were charged for the time we had in the bike.

He's blaming you, the customer, for picking up the bike early. That's what he's pissed off at. He's pissed off that you picked your bike after ONLY 3 weeks, with no ETA in sight, with no plan, no estimate, and no consideration of the cost to in terms of the labor you paid for, or the bike you couldn't ride. I know at least two local California dealerships who would have at least provided you a loaner bike.

We have been serving BMW faithful for almost 20 years. While we are not perfect, we have built our reputation on quality service. But never in that 20 years have we been treated in a more unprofessional manner than in your communication earlier. You obviously did not care for our services in the past and evidently have no intentions of employing our services in the future. We were nothing more than courteous in our efforts to assist you at a time when you were in need. For our efforts, you malign and belittle my staff in a manner that I cannot accept. For this reason, I consider this matter closed.

Unexcusable, unbelievable, and indefensible. You're out time and money, you FIXED the bike yourself, and the main concern of this Dealer is that HIS feelings may be hurt? This dealer obviously doesn't have to fight very hard for business. I really don't care if you were a raving maniac while on-site, it is HIS, and his DEALERSHIP's responsibility to behave professionally and courteously, not yours. That's why you are called the "customer". "The customer is always right".

Second, it appears to be this dealer's clearly expressed, written position that they will only attempt to provide good customer service to those customer's who have "intentions of employing our services in the future". In other words, if you're just passing through town, you're lucky if they bother to take your money. If you're a first time (maybe last time) customer, if you don't have a "track record" of being whatever they consider a "good customer", screw you (and we'll take your money for kicks too).

Again, this is indefensible. It's not even a close call. Whoever this gentleman is, even if he's the owner of the dealership (and most likely, he is not), he is accountable to someone. You need to identify exactly who this guy is who wrote you the letter, find out who he reports to, and forward the last letter received to the man's superior (and/or BMWNA). Make sure the letter is USPS certified.

If you don't get statisfaction from the dealer, contact BMWNA. If BMWNA won't intervene (and I believe they will PDQ), then you have to decide whether you have the time to pursue it in small claims court, and via the BBS. I'd also check your state's regulatory agency for Auto (and probably Motorcycle repairs). I'm in Kalifornia, so the laws are pretty extensive, but your state may also have complaint procedures. Use them. Check out the local newspapers or newstations in that area for "troubleshooter" or "consumer advocate" type of shows or columns, and see if they're interested in your story.

The dealer has two choices. A) They can decided that the customer is always right, they can refund you some or all of the service, issue you a written apology (heck, if it was my dealership, I'd even toss in a gift cert. for "toys" in the shop), and maybe, just maybe, avoid embarrassment and an angry customer. Or, B), they can stone wall you, respond to your letters, stone wall and insult you, respond to your complaint via the State agency, stone wall some more, and respond to the BBB or local Chamber of Commerce, stone wall some more, fight you in local small claims court, have an angry customer for life, have their reputation trashed in the local media, and very probably end up reimbursing you after they lose in court.

Which option would you pick if you were a competent Service (or "Operations") Manager? Which would be most cost-effective, even if you were 100% "in the wrong".

And yes, when all is said and done, post this dealer's name on this forum. If he has a change of heart, that's important - it may be a dealer we'd consider using (anyone can miss something like a clipped wire, and the tech working on your bike may have been young and inexperienced - it happens). If not, it's a dealer every BMW owner would want to avoid like the plague.

That's my 2 cents (um..actually, it was more like twenty bucks.. don't get me started!).

November 8, 2005

thx for the thoughts..

I agree and disagree..

The customer is NOT "always right", despite the American mantra.. There are a few times where the customer is clearly wrong.. However, I dont believe tihs is one of them, and that discussoin is for another thread.....

To get up to speed..

i received a short letter from the dealer this morning. Not well written (I've decided part of the issue is that the Ops mgr is a biker at heart and really does NOT have people skills), but he did admit that they felt (after reconsideration) that they hadn't taken the right approach..

They say that the lost bolts are my fault, the wiring issues are my issues (other than the repair to the harness), and that they'll refund me 4 hrs of "diagnostic" time ($250ish off of the $700 bill)....

So, that's the update.

Is the monetary amount appropriate?? I dunno.. I think it is pretty fair... After all, I did agree to pay them to diagnose the bike (2hrs of diagnostics is their standard diagnosis charge, at $67/hr).. They refunded me all shop time above that charge... And of course they didn't refunnd me for the HAL (which I still have in the bike)..

Only things I'd wish they'd have done is send me the screws/bolts I'm missing (small detail but pretty damn annoying), apologize for chipping my paint job up a bunch, and give me some pointers for the wiring issue with my clock..

One soul from this site has emailed me JPG's of all the wiring harnesses--THANKS!!! I really appreciate it. I'll at least be able to resolve problems myself now..

The only two remaining issues (beyond these) are electrical problems..

This morning I was stoped by the county LEO for turnning without signalling.. What?? I NEVER turn without a signal first--it's a habit I've always had... Got to the side of the road and i realized ALL my flashers were dead, as well as the clock....

The officer stood by while I went thru the whole fusebox praying for an answer.. Found that some of the fuses had been reinstalled IMPROPERLY and had pushed the wiring harness out the bottom of the fuse holder.. AGGGG.. So my clock power & blinker/emergency flasher power was all intermittent..

Officer let me go with a warning after I got it working ("oh, and don't let me ever catch you changing 3 lanes without blinkers again"). Kinda pissed me off....To me NOT using a turn signal is about as intelligent as biking in a wifebeater and shorts--pretty embarrassing to be chided for something so elementary....

November 8, 2005

Incredible ordeal. That service dept has some of the worst ham-handed "techs" I've ever heard of. There seems no end to what "repairs" they did to your bike. After this story, they couldn't pay me to let them work on my bike.

November 9, 2005

Is the monetary amount appropriate?? I dunno.. I think it is pretty fair... After all, I did agree to pay them to diagnose the bike (2hrs of diagnostics is their standard diagnosis charge, at $67/hr).. They refunded me all shop time above that charge... And of course they didn't refunnd me for the HAL (which I still have in the bike)..

Well, as I said before, I'm not one of the guys who thinks the dealer owes the customer the world. But based on your well documented evidence, he should be taking full responsiblitiy and begging your forgiveness. He should not charge any labor for what you had to REDO and he should throw in the parts as a apology. He should offer to mail you the screws he lost and tell you he's taken corrective action with the tech and ask you to please give him another chance next time that he will personally oversee the work on your bike.

However, he has written you off as ever coming there again and is trying to get out of it with minimal expense. Since I have plenty of vacation time and an oversize dose of "doing what's right", I would pursue small claims court if I din't get a full refund. you are too nice. Of course it's better to be too nice than to be an a**hole--you might end up as a service manager at a BMW dealership.

November 9, 2005

He's blaming you, the customer, for picking up the bike early.

I understood that part and thought it was reasonable. Once they got in there and figured out what the problem actually was, they wouldn't bill him for that time. Since they never found the cause of the problem, they have little choice but to bill the customer for the hours that they spent.

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