Beware of Polyester Motorcycle Jackets

[onmyrt]

Interesting article here

[wbrissette]

I don't think there will be much argument over it. He's right, you have to pay attention to the type of material being used.

 

Wayne

[rob1100r]

Good to know for sure, as I would not really have given it a thought, as 'a textile jacket is a textile jacket right?' But if the price is really too low, one should raise an eyebrow anyway. Looks like alot of Cortech or Tourmaster stuff must be poly. according to the article. My BMW Santiago gear is, and I quote 'Made of highly abrasion and tear-resistant Dynatec®'...I hope they are right

 

[kmac]

This is a big deal over on Dual Sport forums because alot of us wear our dirtbike gear since most of what we ride is dirt.

 

But if you lay it down on a pavement section the dirt bike gear is either poly or a thin nylon and they just melt.

 

I dont know how to take just the pic out of a thread over there but there is a pic of a guy who slid on his butt and he was just 2 giant rasberry cheeks.

[Jon_M]

I've worn an Aerostich Roadcrafter for a number of years and so far have not tested it. The Aerostich website does warn against wearing the suit without some kind of undergarment.

 

Why does the addition of waterproofing increase the likelihood of burns? In these garments is there an additional layer that is more prone to melting? How is GoreTex applied?

 

Jon

[marked23]

Doh! I just spent a ton of dough outfitting my wife and I with Firstgear stuff. And we didn't buy the cheap stuff. Website says it's poly.

 

I'll have to keep this in mind next time we can buy gear.

[ratfink]

A couple of years ago my friend hit a deer and went sliding on the pavement. He's still wearing the leather jacket he had on at the time. I think he's kinda proud of the scuffs on it.

 

His textile pants were in shreds but offered enough protection that his Levi's stayed together, so no road rash and no fibers melted into his skin.

 

He replaced the pants with some leather ones.

[EffBee]

The article is incorrect on one point. Kevlar does NOT have particularly good abrasion-resistant qualities. What Kevlar has is incredible SHEAR resistance, i.e. it is almost impossible to tear. But as a weave by itself, the strands of Kevlar will, when exposed to an abrasive surface, shift and leave gaps in the weave, through which your skin is then exposed.

 

Now, when Kevlar is woven very tightly and in multiple layers, such as that used in a bullet-proof vest, then it has high impenetrability, which again is different from abrasion resistance.

 

Perhaps it is for these reason that Kevlar is generally "interwoven" with a fabric, to provide added shear strength, and that no one has come out with a pure Kevlar riding suit (even at the astronomic cost, some would surely buy them if they worked).

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

Time for an abrasion test of road gear by a reputable tester.

[kmac]

I crash alot...if you guys wanna give me a couple sets of kevlar and leather and textile riding suits, I promise i will report back on how they hold up after my future get offs

[Boffin]

Time for an abrasion test of road gear by a reputable tester.

 

Paging Bounce Bynum .....

 

Andy

[SageRider]

Time for an abrasion test of road gear by a reputable tester.

 

Paging Bounce Bynum .....

 

Andy

He bounces to much...

It's Slyder_Steve time!!!!

[ratfink]

Time for an abrasion test of road gear by a reputable tester.

 

Paging Bounce Bynum .....

 

Andy

He bounces to much...

It's Slyder_Steve time!!!!

 

To me, this sounds like a task for Moshe. I have a hard time believing that even the best cordura will outperform Langlitz leathers.

[SageRider]

You did some pretty good gear testing in the not to distant past... are you volunteering???

[tallman]

And point two, it appears leather can be waterproof, ala Transit

outfit from 'Stitch.

 

Sorry to "hear" about all these people with fabric meltic into skin, anyone have that happen?

[CoarsegoldKid]

I took a look at my Roadcrafter and it's a Cordura shell and a polyester liner as far as I can tell. They say it may melt. Aerostich suggests to always wear cotton between skin and suit. They do not have a materials tag sewn in.

 

Olympia web site states that Cordura is used for their shell but they don't comment on the Air Flow material or ventilated liners. They don't have a materials tag sewn in either.

 

I took a look at my First Gear jacket and it's a polyester shell and liner. It does have the most substantial armor I have seen for elbows and shoulders. Their wimpy back pad was swapped out for a Aerostich version held in with sewn in velcro. Occasionally that is removed and I wear a BMW vest type torso armor. I also have a Dianese back protector that articulates and is rather insect looking that could be cut down and inserted into the jackets back pad holder.

[elkroeger]

I dunno guys. I don't see any references or first hand, controlled testing to back up his claim.

 

A quick look at Wikipedia under "polyester" and "nylon" shows the melting point of polyester at 250 - 260 C. Nylon's melting point is given as 190 - 350 C. I'm no chemist, but the terms polyester or nylon can mean a variety of different things, depending on the exact chemical composition.

 

The melting point ranges given on Wikipedia (a dubious source itself!) tell me that no two materials (or garments) are going to behave the same, even if they're labelled the same.

 

Seems to me the article is merely some guy's opinion which may or may not be correct. +1 for some independent controlled testing.

[elkroeger]

...Sorry to "hear" about all these people with fabric meltic into skin, anyone have that happen?

 

Not quite, but I did have a pair of goretex/nylon pants melt and disintegrate while doing a sitting glissade on old snow, up at Mt. Rainier. Let that be a lesson for you: If you're glissading, and your ass gets hot, it's time to stop. Had some nice raspberries on my cheeks too... that was fun!

[ratfink]

And point two, it appears leather can be waterproof, ala Transit

outfit from 'Stitch.

 

Sorry to "hear" about all these people with fabric meltic into skin, anyone have that happen?

 

About thirty years ago I had a get off wearing a goatskin flight jacket with a satiny lining, probably polyester but I'm not sure.

I was wearing a short sleeve tshirt under the jacket.

 

Even through the substantial leather, which outwardly only suffered scuffmarks, I had some minor abrasions on my foream and elbow and some of the black synthetic fibers were embedded in my skin. It appeared as if they had melted but I'm pretty sure that it was not due to the fabric reaching a high enough temperature to actually liquefy.

 

When I suggested testing by Moshe, it was not with the implication that he do it firsthand. crash test dummies or abrasive machines would be indicated. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Survived-til-now]

On this you cannot even use price as a guide. I have used textile kit for years and tested it in the field (as it you might put it!!).....

 

For good value see Hein Gericke who test their gear and tell you very clearly which jacket has what material... I have the Master series (i.e. their best) and I also buy BMW kit (again the top of their range)

[Gregori]

Some years ago, I seem to recall that someone did a comparison test of typical riding gear fabrics. They set it up by putting a ham (to simulate skin/flesh) under a sandbag (for additional contact patch weight), inside each of several different fabrics. Hooked them up to a bar, and dragged them along a patch of pavement until each would wear through and leave traces of ham on the road.

 

IIRC, the results were that Denim (of course) wore through quite quickly, followed shortly thereafter by nylon/polyester synthetics (including mesh) and 'fashion' leather (ie - thin, soft). A fair bit later came corduras of various increasing weights, kevlar enhanced fabrics, and finally leather.

I don't think there was much (if any) differentiation of nylon vs. poly material, but it was a relatively low speed test. (15-20 MPH)

 

Obviously, the thicker/heavier that material, the more wear-through protection it would offer, compared to similar, thinner materials. And things like elbow/knee pads or cups will obviously slow the wear-through some.

 

Tumbling vs sliding is probably the area where leather shines the best. But for most of us, a get-off would more likely involve an impact and tumble anyway. Most of the places we ride don't have sculpted runoff areas at each corner, but instead are full of guardrails, trees, signposts, deer, cars and other random, unforgiving objects.

 

 

[Twisties]

I dunno guys. I don't see any references or first hand, controlled testing to back up his claim.

 

A quick look at Wikipedia under "polyester" and "nylon" shows the melting point of polyester at 250 - 260 C. Nylon's melting point is given as 190 - 350 C. I'm no chemist, but the terms polyester or nylon can mean a variety of different things, depending on the exact chemical composition.

 

The melting point ranges given on Wikipedia (a dubious source itself!) tell me that no two materials (or garments) are going to behave the same, even if they're labelled the same.

 

Seems to me the article is merely some guy's opinion which may or may not be correct. +1 for some independent controlled testing.

 

guide to choosing gear

 

You are right, hard data is hard to come by. The link above like so many others out there, doesn't really directly address the question of nylon vs polyester, but may provide some useful information.

 

Olympia says this,

 

Authentic Dupont Cordura®

Due to outstanding abrasion resistance and durability, Dupont Cordura® performance fabric is a key element found only in top quality motorcycle apparel. Cordura is 2 to 14 times more durable than standard nylon, polyester and cotton. We’ve tested imitation fabrics used by our competitors but none come close to the heat and abrasion resistance of authentic Dupont Cordura®.

 

I wasn't able to locate similar info on Fieldsheer's website to compare claims. I hate to bring up anecdotes, but this one did come to mind:

 

ATGATT

 

On page 4 of this thread you'll see Richard's Fieldsheer gear after a low speed low side slide, and on page 5 you'll see my Olympia Airglide material after a similar spill. The Oly gear cleaned right up and I wore it another few years, 6 years total.

 

I also didn't find any info at Aerostitch.

 

Might try the links in the article above, and maybe it would be worthwhile to write some of the manufacturers for their testing results.

 

By the way, there are ASTM and other standardized tests for abrasion resistance.

[notacop]

Didn't the 70's teach you anything??? Beware of anything polyester and those that would wear it.

[Twisties]

Found this from FieldSheer

[Twisties]

Found this from AeroStitch, has some references

[Twisties]

Here is what Motoport has to say. Some hard numbers floating around in here.

[EffBee]

I recall some BMW test data that we were exposed to during one of their New Apparel Seminars a few years back. Of course, these things vary on the basis of thickness of material (denier), ambient temp, etc., so take some of the following as approximations.

 

Using a very precise machine that BMW has developed to run in-house abrasion tests, polyester products as used in motorcycle jackets had a friction melting point of around 230 degrees. Nylon, as used in 300-denier Cordura had a melting point of about 390 degrees, with 500-denier coming in at about 420. BMW's own Dynatec, as used in the Savanna2 jackets and pants, had a melting point of around 550 degrees.

 

BMW stopped publishing this data because no two falls are alike, and therefore there's no way to predict the coefficient of friction in any given fall (due to a variety of factors, not the least of which is the specific asphalt surface). But it was clear to me that for most motorcycle garments, the minimum I would want in the impact areas would be 300-denier Cordura.

 

I own a 1-pc. Roadcrafter, three Olympia Jackets (Bushwhacker, AST2 and GT Air), an Olympia Phantom 1-pc. suit, a BMW Savanna2 Jacket, and a Gerbing's eXtreme Element Heated Jacket. I would feel confident that I'd receive quality protection in any of these garments.

[RockBottom]

This thread has changed my behavior in one way: I have two heavy touring jackets, a polyester shell FirstGear and a ballistic nylon shell Hein Gericke. Now, all other things being equal, I reach for the Hein. (It doesn't have quite the comfort at the top and bottom temperature range because there are no vents and the liner is lighter than the FirstGear, so I still use the Kilimanjaro at times and figure I'll take my chances).

[Penforhire]

I wear a Motoport Cordura suit but I don't agree that 1000 denier is better than leather (original linked article). To me it is a compromise and nothing actually beats dead cow (or deer or roo) if I ever do the pavement luge.

 

I don't think you can just compare melting temperatures. Presumably they also heat a different amount when dragged across pavement (friction coefficient?).

 

PE doesn't sound like a great material. I seem to recall horror stories about PE shirts catching fire (from sparks or whatever) and melting onto skin a long time ago.

[Twisties]

What I got out of this thread:

 

1. Various leather materials are not all the same.

2. Various synthetic materials are not all the same.

3. There is not enough independent uniform and relevant information out there to accurately sort out competing claims and choose a material based on rational criteria.

4. Comfort is an important safety factor too.

5. Cut and construction are at least as important as material choice for protective gear.

 

YMMV

[Selden]

Using a very precise machine that BMW has developed to run in-house abrasion tests, polyester products as used in motorcycle jackets had a friction melting point of around 230 degrees. Nylon, as used in 300-denier Cordura had a melting point of about 390 degrees, with 500-denier coming in at about 420. BMW's own Dynatec, as used in the Savanna2 jackets and pants, had a melting point of around 550 degrees.

Do you have a source for this? My mother was a nylon polymer chemist for DuPont, so I was thoroughly indoctrinated in synthetic textiles while growing up. The melting point temperatures make no sense, based on what I know about synthetic textiles; the generally accepted melting point for polyester is 250-260°C, "nylon" is actually a family of different polymers with melting points from 190-350°C. 6,6 nylon, which is probably the basis for Cordura, has a melting point of 256°C. Cordura is a trade name for a fabric, not a fiber (Cordura was originally made from rayon, which has truly horrible abrasion resistance). Most other textiles made from nylon are made from 6 nylon, which has a much lower melting point than 6,6 nylon.

 

The biggest advantage of nylon over polyester is that it is elastic, has high tensile strength, and has a low coefficient of friction; thus in an abrasion scenario, it grips, then releases repeatedly, without surrendering its integrity. Polyester is much less elastic, so it just tends to abrade. Both will melt. Kevlar doesn't melt; it starts to degrade before it reaches what would be a melting temperature.

 

If I wear long underwear under protective gear, I would rather have polyester against my skin than nylon. Better yet, wool. Polypropylene, which is often used for long underwear because of its wicking character, should be avoided at all cost, as its melting point is only 130–171°C. Ouch!

[EffBee]

Not anything that's readily accessible. The machine was shown to us in a video presentation by BMW at one of their annual New Apparel introductions, held specifically for dealers. The melting points were quotes from that same video, and are not exact but rather a recollection on my part of approximately what was said. BMW no longer uses that video, to the best of my knowledge.

[Twisties]

I'm far more concerned with abrasion resistance than melting point, personally. Let's face it, anything in contact with your skin much over about 55 C (130 F), and you are going to be getting a burn. By anywhere near 200 C that's going to be a very, very serious burn. By 250 C, well let's just say that's hot enough to give Ray Bradbury pause... 482 F... and if it's true that plain paper autoignites at 451 F, you get my point... hotter than most ovens in any event. I would think that at these temps, fabric melting is the least of your worries.

 

If Selden is correct then we can infer that the low coefficient of friction for Nylons means less heating of the fabric in a slide, all else being equal.

 

Here is what Cordura says about nylon content for the three fabrics they recommend for motorcycle protective wear (and there is no guarantee I suppose that garment manufacturers limit themselves to just these three):

 

Ballistic Can be Nylon 6, or Nylon 6.6

 

Classic Nylon 6.6

 

Lite Can be Nylon 6 or Nylon 6.6.

 

Neither Olympia nor Aerostitch seems to say anything beyond 500 Denier Cordura, however, of the three designated motorcycle Cordura protective fabrics, only the Classic Cordura comes in 500 Denier according to Cordura's charts, and therefore we can infer that both of these manufacturers are using Nylon 6.6.

 

 

[Twisties]

If Selden is correct then we can infer that the low coefficient of friction for Nylons means less heating of the fabric in a slide, all else being equal.

 

Or, on second thought, maybe you just slide further...

 

If we assume that for a given collision there is a fixed amount of kinetic energy that must be dissipated to reach 0 velocity. Then we look at how this energy is transferred we have:

 

a. Friction due to sliding, and we hope this is the major mechanism, or

b. Collisive transfers:

 

1. Banging around, where linear velocity is converted into flopping motions of the body, e.g. linear velocity is transferred to accelerations of body parts relative to one another.

2. Rolling, where linear energy gets converted into tumbling or rolling motions.

3. Colliding with a fixed object, where linear motion is transferred to compression, tearing, and other things that don't sound good.

 

So, consequently, the optimum case is to slide to a stop on one's intact gear, since that does not result in violent energy transfer to your body. The optimum way to do this would seem to generate enough friction to stop in a reasonable distance, so as to avoid collision, and yet to take long enough to do it, that heat from the friction can be dissipated without too much temperature build up (temperature is a function of the heat energy generated, the mass of fabric, and the specific heat of the fabric). However, the total amount of heat generated from a given slide event must be equal for different fabrics, since the amount of kinetic energy to dissipated is determined by the mass and speed of the rider.

 

Now, just don't ask me which fabric is better. I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud is all.

[Twisties]

More thoughts:

 

Too high a co-efficient of friction and you are more likely to get tumbling, rolling and banging around type injuries, as well as high temperatures. Too low and you slide farther than you need to, risking collision with a fixed object or oncoming vehicle.

[TrickLidz]

I have a pair of Vanson leather pants for sale. PM me.

[Jon_M]

You don't think the preponderance of evidence argues against polyester and nylon? At least that much seems clear to me.

[Selden]

OK, y'all forced me to put on my librarian hat. I've been subscribing to MCN for over 10 years, and have never thrown out an issue.

 

Hambleton, Sarah. "Crash Protection Performance: A Scientific Comparison of Leather & Synthetic Riding Suit Materials." MCN, 31:6 (June, 2000), pp.24-27.

 

Here are some word summaries of some of the test result charts:

 

Abrasion Resistance (# of rubs to hole or tear)

Standard racing leather, black : 35,000

1050 ballistic nylon : 21,000

Kevlar stretch : 10,000

P.U. xoated Cordura : 9,000

500 denier Cordura/Gore-Tex : 5,000

Standard racing leather, white : 4,000

Machine washable leather : 3,500

Kevlar : 800

Keprotec : 500

 

Resistance to tearing (units unclear)

P.U. coated Cordura : 360

Kevlar stretch : 330

Keprotec : 320

500 denier Cordura/Gore-Tex : 210

Kevlar : 205

1050 ballistic nylon : 170

Standard racing leather, white : 135

Standard racing leather, black : 130

Machine washable leather : 80

 

Summary conclusion:

...there was no one, single result that proved one material to be better than another.... Each material compared in this study has its own protective qualities.... ideal protection is provided by the way the combination of materials are used and constructed within the garment. As tested, perhaps the best overall combination of materials for everyday riding and touring was that found in the...

To be continued...

[Selden]

...Aerostich riding suits and jackets.

Not so surprising, was it?

 

Also, Motoport's claims about Kevlar stretch fabric appear to be pretty credible.