Touratech Ceramic Clutch

[RoSPA_man]

Any thoughts on this ceramic clutch IF I need to replace? GS and RT seem to be the same OEM part number so it should work OK, but would it have any side-effects. Anyone fitted one to an RT or a GS?

Link: Touratech

 

[Edgar]

The only damage it will do is to your wallet. $629 for the clutch plate, WOW! The pretty good factory clutch plate is about $150.

[Lineareagle]

The validity of the ceramic is because GSers need to slip the clutch a lot to negotiate terrain at low speed.

I think that requirement is lost on an RT.

[RodB]

This is the one you should try if you need one, a bit less pricey than the Touratech one. I'm very satisfied with mine and would not hesitate to use one again if I ever needed.

Way better than OEM.

 

There are Wunderlich dealers in the UK, so it should not be difficult to source one.

[BeemerBerg]

Have you considered sintered clutch:

 

http://www.wunderlichamerica.com/motorcycle/8510030.html

 

 

[RoSPA_man]

This is the one you should try if you need one, a bit less pricey than the Touratech one. I'm very satisfied with mine and would not hesitate to use one again if I ever needed.

Way better than OEM.

 

There are Wunderlich dealers in the UK, so it should not be difficult to source one.

 

Great - this is exactly why this forum is so great for information. This is the baby I will go for - and I also learnt a new verb from their website - the verb "to concept" as in "Initially concepted..."

[Hall Vince]

How many miles you have on yours then Hugh?

Are you detected some slippage?

[BerndM]

Over on the ADVRider forum, there was quite a discussion about 6 months ago on clutch plates. Some enterprising individual found that the R1200XX bikes can use the clutch plates from an early 60s VW or Porsche car. Same diameter and spline configuration. If I remember correctly, the only modification needed was to slightly machine down the longer hub on one side of the clutch plate. It was just a bit longer than the BMW hub. Seems the prices on the car clutches was less than $50. Worth a search over there.

 

[swilson]

Back when we rode R1150GS-P's at work we had one rider who could burn out a stock clutch in 3k miles. At 11k miles the FOURTH CLUTCH went in!!! He owned a Harley and (I assume) was just used to the wet clutch on the Harley and refused to adapt to the dry clutch on his bimmer.

 

At 11k miles the city was getting sick of the clutch bills, so they invested in a ceramic clutch. It did put an end to the clutch failures.

 

I rode the bike many times. On the street the performance was great. Off the line it would take a tremendous amount of abuse and not slip like the stock clutch would. You could absolutely launch that bike off the line. It did have a down side for enforcement riding though, which was especially obvious in the cone patterns. The BMW dry clutch is notorious for having a very small gray area (distance from where the clutch begins to engage till where it is fully engaged), but with the ceramic clutch that area became even smaller. Didn't affect the riders with above average clutch control, but for riders with poor clutch control it really gave them a hard time.

[David R]

Organic disc sacrifices it self. Ceramic or sintered sacrifices the flywheel and pressure plate. If you replace both every time it does not matter.

 

Same as brake pads.

 

I had a few 60s VW cars in my early life and I always remarked on the similarities between the motors of those and my airhead.

 

David

[vfrman]

What's the difference between a sintered clutch and a ceramic clutch?

What are the performance differences, if any?

[ragtoplvr]

Ceramic is the hardest, and longest wearing. It is a horrible conductor of heat, so all slipping heat goes onto the plates. It will last the longest. Certain that if you ever replace it the plates will need replaced also. Generally has the narrowest friction zone. Can be slow to break in.

 

Sintered is composite mostly metallic substance, consisting of steel, carbon, copper (not so much now) and other metal and non-metallic (even some ceramics) powders pressed together under high heat and pressure. Here the disk and plates will both get hot, so a bit different thermal capacity. Also wears the plates but not as bad as organic, breaks in much faster, much improved friction zone.

 

Organic used to be asbestos fibers, now mostly kevlar, nomex, spectra etc fibers in a binder.

 

Note that sintered and organic migrate into pores in the plates. So if you change brands of frictions, you have to use all new plates.

Rod

[vfrman]

Thanks for your detailed response.

 

I think I'm going to pick up the sintered clutch from Wunderlich.

It's just a little more expensive than the stock clutch plate, but hopefully will last much longer.

 

In getting this sintered plate, I think it's probably best if I replace my pressure plate and housing?

[RodB]

The terms 'sintered' or 'ceramic' used for clutch friction disc material are commonly interchangeable in modern parlance. Probably a better term would be the not so cool sounding: 'Cermet', but hasn't caught on with most people.

Usually, if you're not using an 'organic' clutch, it will be a sintered or ceramic type, which means that it is a mixture of different metal powders & ceramic powders that are 'sintered' together. The combination of ingredients differ somewhat from each manufacturer.(kind of like fried chicken recipes)

 

I don't know of a totally 'ceramic' clutch disc.

 

For the decision of replacing the rest of your clutch assembly along with the disc....should not depend on the type of disc material but with the wear/heat damage encountered when you inspect the parts.

Whatever you decide, don't forget to properly lube the splines.

 

[vfrman]

Nice explanation, Rod.

I'm seeing things more clearly now.

 

On a different note... Does the RT have a flywheel? I've looked at the parts fiche and I don't see one, and the dealer makes no mention of one. If you replace the clutch, does it need replacing as well?

[dirtrider]

Hi Patrick

 

Technically the clutch housing would be the flywheel as that is the part that actually bolts to the crankshaft but the BMW is a little different animal so when all is bolted up the pressure plate would be part of the flywheel mass along with the housing cover.

[vfrman]

Technically the clutch housing would be the flywheel as that is the part that actually bolts to the crankshaft but the BMW is a little different animal so when all is bolted up the pressure plate would be part of the flywheel mass along with the housing cover.

 

Thanks, Dirtrider - That makes a lot of sense. I had pretty much figured that out, but wasn't sure.

 

Thank you!

[RodB]

Yes and no.

Yes, There is a 'flywheel' meaning that there is something attached to the end of the crankshaft and rotating with it, creating momentum to help the crankshaft turn and thus help the pistons reach top center for the next firing sequence. This something has a ring gear attached, giving the starter a place to do its thing. The whole clutch assembly bolts to this thing adding some weight to help with the previously mentioned momentum thing.

So then No, there is no flywheel in the sense as you're used to... where the clutch disc uses a planed surface of the flywheel as a friction connection.

[vfrman]

Yes and no.

Yes, There is a 'flywheel' meaning that there is something attached to the end of the crankshaft and rotating with it, creating momentum to help the crankshaft turn and thus help the pistons reach top center for the next firing sequence. This something has a ring gear attached, giving the starter a place to do its thing. The whole clutch assembly bolts to this thing adding some weight to help with the previously mentioned momentum thing.

So then No, there is no flywheel in the sense as you're used to... where the clutch disc uses a planed surface of the flywheel as a friction connection.

\

 

Nice explanation.

I feel like I'm at school... I'm learning so much today!

 

[vfrman]

Okay, here's another question:

 

What clutch will last longer? Sintered, ceramic, or slipper?

 

I generally blip the throttle to downshift, and use engine braking to slow down before I enter a corner.

I don't know if that detail helps or not... maybe it doesn't make any difference?

[vfrman]

I just got off the phone with Cal BMW here in the Bay Area, and the parts manager mentioned to me that whenever a bike has come in with an aftermarket clutch, there's always been excessive wear on the pressure plate and clutch housing.

 

Obviously his comment made me nervous about going with the sintered clutch... but I wanted to get a general consensus before I made a decision.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Hi Patrick

 

That must be some BMW dealer to disassemble every bike that comes into the dealer to inspect it for an aftermarket clutch then measure all the parts. How else could they make the statement “that whenever a bike has come in with an aftermarket clutch, there's always been excessive wear on the pressure plate and clutch housing”

You think maybe he is blowing some smoke at you trying to sell you a BMW clutch?

 

At what point does normal wear turn into excess wear?

 

 

 

[vfrman]

He's the parts manager, and, for the most part, I do trust him. He just said that out of the bikes he's seen with an aftermarket clutch *that they've had to work on*, there has been excessive wear on the parts.

In reality, if I don't buy a clutch from him, he's only losing out on $145. So he's not gaining much by embellishing.

It is however, his job to make money for the dealership... so you never know, right?

[David R]

Its a trade off. Harder disc makes for more wear on the parts it has to work with. Organic discs wear them selves out, and sometimes only the disc needs to be replaced.

This is usually the case, BUT I have done that in cars and had the pressure plate glazed so the clutch never broke in and always slipped. Job was done over.

 

With a harder disc, its almost guaranteed the associated plates will have to be replaced. They do grab better and last longer.

 

David

[RodB]

He's the parts manager, and, for the most part, I do trust him. He just said that out of the bikes he's seen with an aftermarket clutch *that they've had to work on*, there has been excessive wear on the parts.

 

I'd venture to say that these same bikes with an OEM clutch would also have an 'excessive wear on the parts'. As there are many different clutch disc materials, there are as many different levels of operating skills.

I've worked my whole career in the mobile equipment maintenance field and have seen many examples of operator abuse irregardless of the systems used.

As we say often, the most difficult nut to work on is the one behind the wheel.

[LeftCoastMan]

Sigh. I actually thought there would be a consensus here. I'm planning to pull a trailer on my RT up through mountain for the next few years, and I know I can smell my clutch sometimes. I thought that one of these better plates would be useful. I'm not sure I trust what a BMW service guy says (he wants the labor rates), and there seems to be a lot of anecdotes back and forth, so now I don't know.

 

Bigger sigh.

[vfrman]

He wasn't a service guy, he was a parts guy. So take it with a grain of salt.

Of the people on this forum who've used the sintered and ceramic clutches, they all seem to like them, and vouch for the reliability vs stock.

I'm going to go with the less expensive sintered clutch from Wunderlich.

[vfrman]

I just picked up my sintered clutch disc from Wunderlich America in Watsonville today, and will be installing it this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes!

[vfrman]

Got the clutch apart. There is lots of heat damage on the flywheel, and clutch housing, yet, the stock friction disc is well within the service limits... but glazed.

 

Rider error.

 

 

[RoSPA_man]

Got the clutch apart. There is lots of heat damage on the flywheel, and clutch housing, yet, the stock friction disc is well within the service limits... but glazed.

 

Rider error.

 

 

Respect! How difficult was it to take apart? How long did it take?

 

Is the flywheel (I've seen the description that it is and it isn't a normal flywheel) a part of the clutch - it is NOT in the case of auto clutches. Can it be cheaply or easily replaced- in other words does the bit with the starter motor ring have to be replaced if that heat damage is to be eliminated? On the plus side, maybe that "heat damage" is normal?

[RoSPA_man]

Got the clutch apart. There is lots of heat damage on the flywheel, and clutch housing, yet, the stock friction disc is well within the service limits... but glazed.

 

Rider error.

 

BTW, what were the symptoms that made you go to change the clutch disc- was it slippage or was it the lever out to end of travel or did you just want a new clutch plate in for peace of mind?

[basilr]

I have been recently informed that my clutch is slipping under acceration due to the clutch being contaminated with oil from a leakage from either the main seal or the input shaft seal.

 

Assuming this is correct, not only will the seals have to be replaced but it would only make sense to replace the clutch too. I am not a mechanic so I can only take their word for it, but either way it will be an expensive operation since the mechanic has to "break the bike in two" and it is a 10-12 hour job.

 

Not what I was expecting from either BMW or a 2005 RT with only 40k kms on it now, and according to the mechanic (at the BMW dealer), it had been that way for some time.

 

So any opinions or comments on this would be appreciated so I can be a little better armed when I discuss the short strokes with the service dept. Thanks,

 

Basil

 

[vfrman]

Respect! How difficult was it to take apart? How long did it take?

 

Is the flywheel (I've seen the description that it is and it isn't a normal flywheel) a part of the clutch - it is NOT in the case of auto clutches. Can it be cheaply or easily replaced- in other words does the bit with the starter motor ring have to be replaced if that heat damage is to be eliminated? On the plus side, maybe that "heat damage" is normal?

 

The clutch is the easy part. It's splitting the bike in half that is the tricky part.

It definitely helps to have a rack so you have points to tie the front-end down.. and to be able to raise and lower the bike to make things comfortable.

I probably would never attempt this in my garage. Not a good idea.

 

The entire process took about 7 hours.

 

Putting the bike back together was a breeze. The only real snag we encountered was re-engaging the output shaft of the transmission to the drive shaft.

It wasn't too bad though.

 

The bit with the starter ring on it IS the flywheel. So it does need to be replaced. Just as rotors need to be turned before you install new brake pads in a car.

 

BMW also required me to replace the pushrod, since they made a design change to it where it contacts the flywheel spring.

It's spherical instead of conical, which makes the contact a lot smoother as it's spinning. The original pushrod felt like it was starting to bind and definitely showed signs of rusting. The new one resembles the pushrod on an overhead cam motor.

 

The heat damage is from over-reving the engine without fully engaging the clutch. As I mentioned - rider error.

 

This damage was a result of having a passenger on the back, and slipping the clutch to navigate very steep streets in San Francisco in horrendous traffic; without the ability to lane-split.

 

I'll post photos soon... they'll make your jaw drop!!!!

 

 

[racer7]

Not surprised about the damage. That RT has gearing too long for starts or puttering on steep hills 2 up or heavily loaded, the dry clutch design isn't tolerant of slippage, and the stock disc composition is also not abuse tolerant. I suspect many riders would sustain clutch problems if doing a lot of riding in that type of environment with a STOCK RT. I smoke mine a bit with a heavy load 2 up on the steepest hill starts despite trying to be extra careful on them.

 

Sounds like you've improved the disc heat tolerance but that won't address gearing and riding habits issues. Bet about now you wish the bike was one of the hydraulic clutch types where you could just lay it on its side and pull/replace clutch sets.

[RoSPA_man]

Respect! How difficult was it to take apart? How long did it take?

 

Is the flywheel (I've seen the description that it is and it isn't a normal flywheel) a part of the clutch - it is NOT in the case of auto clutches. Can it be cheaply or easily replaced- in other words does the bit with the starter motor ring have to be replaced if that heat damage is to be eliminated? On the plus side, maybe that "heat damage" is normal?

 

The clutch is the easy part. It's splitting the bike in half that is the tricky part.

It definitely helps to have a rack so you have points to tie the front-end down.. and to be able to raise and lower the bike to make things comfortable.

I probably would never attempt this in my garage. Not a good idea.

 

The entire process took about 7 hours.

 

Putting the bike back together was a breeze. The only real snag we encountered was re-engaging the output shaft of the transmission to the drive shaft.

It wasn't too bad though.

 

The bit with the starter ring on it IS the flywheel. So it does need to be replaced. Just as rotors need to be turned before you install new brake pads in a car.

 

BMW also required me to replace the pushrod, since they made a design change to it where it contacts the flywheel spring.

It's spherical instead of conical, which makes the contact a lot smoother as it's spinning. The original pushrod felt like it was starting to bind and definitely showed signs of rusting. The new one resembles the pushrod on an overhead cam motor.

 

The heat damage is from over-reving the engine without fully engaging the clutch. As I mentioned - rider error.

 

This damage was a result of having a passenger on the back, and slipping the clutch to navigate very steep streets in San Francisco in horrendous traffic; without the ability to lane-split.

 

I'll post photos soon... they'll make your jaw drop!!!!

 

Hi VFRman

I assume the clutch is now installed and running etc. Any chance to see the photos? A few questions.

1. What other parts did you replace i.e. what parts did you need apart from the clutch plate from Wunderlich?

2. What lubes or other special tools did you need?

3. Were there/are there any other jobs that could be done while teh bike is split like seal replacements, lubing etc?

4. Would you do it again ?

5. Did you bleed or refill the clutch release mechanism - if so, I gather filling from below is best with a syringe - I assuem a syringe that seals over the inlet - that being the case, how do you finish out, close the inlet and disconnect the syringe?

Thanks in advance