Canada and Quebec

[Pilgrim]

Explanatory/cautionary note: I am absolutely, positively NOT trying to start anything here, be nasty, or poke a finger in anyone's eye. I am seeking information.

 

Now...

 

I have long believed that there are few (if any) multilingual nations in the world where strife of one sort or another is not found. It's true for places as mild as Belgium and it's true for places as wild as Azerbaijan. Where languages share territory, cultures collide and they collide with varying degrees of strife. Sometimes that strife take the form of strong words and politics and other times it is bullets and bloodshed, but strife there always is. And I don't find any place that reaches a tranquil accommodation on the subject. The lone exception seems to be Switzerland, and they all speak money.

 

So in researching that proposition, I looked to a nation most like us, Canada. And what do I find but a secessionist movement by French Canada. I've seen it out of the corner of my mind's eye for years, but had either forgotten or never noticed that back in the 1970s there were actually bombings and violence by a separatist movement. Since then, the violence has disappeared, I guess, but the movement apparently continues with notable vitality. French Canada, despite having been side-by-side with a huge English-speaking majority, has not acculturated or even allowed itself to be subordinated to the majority.

 

That's how it appears to me, anyway.

 

So my question is this, and I'd appreciate answers for the time being just from our Canadian members and just on the subject of the question, although I think the general proposition I pose might be an interesting discussion.

 

Question: Is the potential secession of Quebec really a big deal to Canadians? I don't mean, would it be a big deal if it happened (obviously, it would), but is the possibility something that is a part of the Canadian political consciousness?

 

Pilgrim

[RodB]

I reside in New Brunswick, the only officially bilingual province in Canada. I'm bilingual, speak french at home and in the workplace (which happens to be in Quebec). I spend the rest of my life mostly in english, meaning that I surf the web, watch TV and do most of my reading as an anglophone.

Being a 13th generation acadian I know a lot about the strife you're alluding to from the past. As mentioned, I spend approximately 2/3rd's of my life at work in Quebec, so I think ??? I can answer your question.

Yes, it is a big deal but the movement (separation) is getting weaker all the time.

I'd like to add an old joke we have: The Newfies out east would kind of welcome Quebec separation, as it would make for a shorter drive to Toronto.

Or this tidbit from The Red Green Show : Green often used duct tape in these projects. In one episode, he tried to duct tape the Ontario-Quebec border as a potential solution to Quebec separatism.

[Pilgrim]

I reside in New Brunswick, the only officially bilingual province in Canada. I'm bilingual, speak french at home and in the workplace (which happens to be in Quebec). I spend the rest of my life mostly in english, meaning that I surf the web, watch TV and do most of my reading as an anglophone.

Being a 13th generation acadian I know a lot about the strife you're alluding to from the past. As mentioned, I spend approximately 2/3rd's of my life at work in Quebec, so I think ??? I can answer your question.

Yes, it is a big deal but the movement (separation) is getting weaker all the time.

I'd like to add an old joke we have: The Newfies out east would kind of welcome Quebec separation, as it would make for a shorter drive to Toronto.

Or this tidbit from The Red Green Show : Green often used duct tape in these projects. In one episode, he tried to duct tape the Ontario-Quebec border as a potential solution to Quebec separatism.

 

Thanks for the response, Rod.

 

As to Newfie jokes - I lived in Maine long ago so I know about Newfie jokes. That's a real good one!

 

As to acadians - Justin Wilson, the Cajun comic, said that Acadians invented boudin and that's why the British drove them out of Canada.

 

Pilgrim

[Big_Gray]

I think you're trying to start something.

[RodB]

...And what do I find but a secessionist movement by French Canada...French Canada, despite having been side-by-side with a huge English-speaking majority, has not acculturated or even allowed itself to be subordinated to the majority.

 

I'd like to remind everybody to not confuse all french Canadians as being all Quebec residents. There are a bit more than 2 million french Canadians residing across Canada outside of Quebec. These people had no say (vote) in the Quebec separatism referendums. The vast majority of these, if asked, would prefer a united Canada.

 

The referendums (held in '80 & '95) show that a huge portion of Quebec french prefered a united Canada. So that leaves a relatively smaller percentage of true separatists, which I see getting smaller with each new generation.

 

I don't agree that french Canadians have not 'acculterated' with the anglophone community, by and large there is a vibrant/dynamic co-existance which truly identifies 'Canadians'.

 

However, I agree that french Canadians (with some difficulties) have not allowed to be 'subordinated' to the majority, and I do not see a valid reason for it either.

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

I think you're trying to start something.

 

I'm really not, unless the question inadvertently pushes some Canadians' buttons.

 

Pilgrim

[RonStewart]

On the west coast, it is not an issue at all. It is never mentioned in the mainstream media, and I have not had a water-cooler conversation on the topic in a dozen years. Whether we should take separatism seriously or not, we do not think about it. I think that the main reason is the boy-who-cried-wolf syndrome: Twice Quebec has threatened secession, and twice the vote has failed. I think we have just tuned it out.

 

When the 1995 referendum failed by a very narrow margin, the extremely drunk Premier of Quebec, Jacques Parizeau, famously blamed, "money (pause), and ethnic votes." I think that the separatist movement lost all credibility in western Canada at that moment. Still, he might have been right, and the ethnic population of Quebec is increasing.

 

You will find that most separatists do not use the term. They talk about "sovereignty association" as if they can set the terms of their departure. They expect to be able to continue to use Canadian passports and currency. If that were to occur, then there would be a real possibility of Alberta and British Columbia separating too. In western Canada it is commonly believed that if Quebec were to truly separate, there would be real suffering in the Quebecois populace.

 

Quebec's legislature is called, "The National Assembly." The provincial holiday, formerly called Saint John the Baptist Day is now called The National Holiday. When then-premier Lucien Bouchard was asked if English-speaking communities could secede from Quebec he said that was impossible. Quebec's secession from Canada was possible because unlike Quebec, Canada "is not a real country." This attitude is ridiculed out here.

 

I think I can be confident that my observation holds for western Canada. I don't know enough to comment about the country east of the Manitoba/Ontario border. And of course you will be able to find western Canadians whose views do not match those I have outlined. But you will find the vast majority do not think that it is a high-priority topic at the moment.

[RonStewart]

I should mention that the country seems to be set to have a series of minority governments because of a federal political party, the Bloc Quebecois. Because of the distribution of votes, this party has many members of parliament. Supposedly, these politicians are separatists, but the western view is that their mission is to ensure that Quebec gets the best deal possible in any decision of parliament. They are effective in that role.

[SANTA]

it almost seemed that the government of PQ wasn't happy being second fiddle to Ontario... its a french thing, so lets separate and negotiate a better deal with the USA...

 

the PQ politicions have given the populus the idea that sovereignty association will not cost PQ anything, it all depends on the current government in power, at one time this would be considered a treasonable act, but the rest of canada bends over pretty deep to appease PQ with more than their fair share of the federal purse...

 

the population of the french base in PQ is declining ( low birth rates) and that will result in changes eventually

[Lineareagle]

Short answer - not an issue. It did have some resurgence as you noted but now it is all but dead.

 

Personally I am glad they have shown the spunk and determination to withstand English Canada. It is refreshing to go there and be truly in a different country. The eastern townships and north are a real treat to visit.

 

The only issue I have is that they do not reciprocate the need for dual language traffic signs etc. Tad dangerous in my view.

 

Of course for English speakers there is a real problem getting work in any federal office without being bi-lingual, sort of sucks.

 

 

 

 

[RodB]

Of course for English speakers there is a real problem getting work in any federal office without being bi-lingual, sort of sucks.

 

I want to remind everyone that francophones have the same limitation.

[SANTA]

thought added:

 

in any group you will find good and undesireable, i some very close friends who are french canadian.

[Ken H.]

I’m not sure if I qualify, being only a Canadian resident, to reply or not. But seeing as I seem to have an opinion on most anything, and apparently like to type here, I’ll relate the opinions I most here out west…

 

They kind of have two veins – We don’t understand, and let ‘em go.

 

Albertans (speaking generally) consider it mostly water under the bridge, ancient history. Old sour grapes. But more importantly, that the divide the issue stirs is damaging to the country as a whole. We recognize that is near and dear to many hearts in Quebec, but for god’s sake – let it go so we can deal with the many more important issues facing Canada. Lacking that – then go. Separate. Goodbye. Write when you get work! Just either do it and be done with it, or drop the subject once and for all. The rest of Canada doesn’t need this carrying on and on, year after year, decade after decade.

 

But as several have mentioned, except for a vocal but dwindling minority, the separatist movement seems to be slowly loosing the wind in its sail anyway.

 

Flipping the question back south of the 49th, we here more and more about growing separatist movement(s) in the USA, in particular Texas. Is that all media hype or a serious possibility?

 

[RodB]

The rest of Canada doesn’t need this carrying on and on, year after year, decade after decade.

 

Ken, your assessment of the whole situation from afar is pretty much spot on.

Even within the Quebec borders (where I work) there is somewhat similar sentiments. Quebec is the highest taxed province in the country as the government is still trying to balance the books from years of past overspending and efforts in trying to reach their goal of a sovereign nation.

The next provincial government will most likely be 'Le Parti Quebecois', but many believe that their top priority will not be separation. The new generation of Quebecer's (not unlike the rest of the world) are more focused on issues that concern us all: government overspending, environment, health, and so on...

 

BTW, I'm kind of enjoying this discussion, if a discussion of Texas separation is warranted, we should start a new one.

[Pilgrim]

The rest of Canada doesn’t need this carrying on and on, year after year, decade after decade.

 

Ken, your assessment of the whole situation from afar is pretty much spot on.

Even within the Quebec borders (where I work) there is somewhat similar sentiments.

The next provincial government will most likely be 'Le Parti Quebecois', but many believe that their top priority will not be separation.

 

BTW, I'm kind of enjoying this discussion, if a discussion of Texas separation is warranted, we should start a new one.

 

From internet articles on the subject:

 

For a majority of Quebec politicians, whether sovereignist or not, the problem of Quebec's political status is considered unresolved to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement

 

The Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois both say that the sovereignty question is not off the table and will wait until the time is right before holding another referendum.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/quebec.htm

 

Many English Canadians have had enough of Québec and its complaints, but I would say that our problem needs to be with the leaders that give voice to separatism not the people of Québec.

http://www.businesschurchpolitics.ca/2010/02/quebec-separatism-on-its-last-leg.html

*********************

The quotes above from the internet appear to reflect a consensus of sources I read there. I'd like to hear from more Canadians about this, though, and yes, Ken, that include you.

 

Sherrie and I have a family friend, a French-Canadian woman, now a U.S. citizen, who is vehement on the subject of language (she still sees herself as primarily French, not even Canadian or truly U.S.) Her position is that the French language in North America will not be safe until Quebec is independent.

 

Applying to that what those who have responded here have to say, it appears that the status of Quebec is not a burning issue throughout the rest of Canada, but to certain elements in Quebec it's still a point of contention and dissatisfaction with the status quo. And those elements are inclined to keep the pot stirred.

 

Thank Heaven that the issue is being addressed peacefully, through politics, rather that by gunfire and bombs. And it is deliberately that I say "addressed" rather than "resolved." Resolution of the political strife is probably a long way off, if ever, since there are still contentious issues in play.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

[Ken H.]

I'd like to hear from more Canadians about this,

I don't think there's very many members here in Quebec though is there?

[Rocer]

Reading in one of the national papers this a.m. re: a pole on which party you'd vote for (and there are calls for a vote of confidence in the upcoming fall budget)in an election. Results of the pole suggests that the Bloc Quebecois would form the official opposition.

 

Seeing as the Bloc preaches for a sovereign Quebec, things could get interesting (again). I do agree with the observation that we're getting tired of it all. It's not clear that the electors of Quebec are now in favour of separation, but then again like most of us electors, the QU voters aren't necessarily the constituents of their elected officials.

[doc47]

My North-of-the-border friends used to tell me that, as opposed to the American concept of the melting-pot where ethnic groups get dumped in and (presumably) all cook into "Americans", Canada describes itself as a "mosaic" of cultures, each maintaining its individuality but contributing to the entire picture.

Canada outside Quebec is, by no means, some sort of unspecified English mass. There are dozens upon dozens of very ethnic communities from Irish to Chinese to Portuguese.

If these statements are true, how do they effect the Quebec-English Canada split?

 

I well remember the mailbox-bombing days of the early '70s. Simard. Pierre Vallieres' book White Niggers of America, etc.

[RodB]

Sherrie and I have a family friend, a French-Canadian woman, now a U.S. citizen, who is vehement on the subject of language (she still sees herself as primarily French, not even Canadian or truly U.S.) Her position is that the French language in North America will not be safe until Quebec is independent.

 

That position is common among the 'Quebecois' population, as it has been persuaded (brainwashing is too strong a word) to the population from way back.

Canada as a country is officially bilingual as well as 1 province (NB). Quebec as a province is officially french.

I'm proud to say that I have a french heritage but I don't share the same worries of losing that heritage in any forseeable future, as our neighbors do.

Until I sense a strong movement to the contrary from english Canada, I feel that the french language in NA is relatively safe.

 

However, there are small pockets of french communities scattered across the country where the worries of language assimilation are real, but whether or not Quebec separates, would not change anything for them.

I just don't see any kind of 'Quebec french cavalry' stampeding across the country saving the french language.

 

So, basically, what I'm saying is: I don't get the 'loss of french as a language worry' as being a valid enough reason to separate from the country. There would have to be vastly better reason than that for me to appreciate and grasp their movement.

[azkaisr]

Sherrie and I have a family friend, a French-Canadian woman, now a U.S. citizen, who is vehement on the subject of language (she still sees herself as primarily French, not even Canadian or truly U.S.) Her position is that the French language in North America will not be safe until Quebec is independent.

 

That position is common among the 'Quebecois' population, as it has been persuaded (brainwashing is too strong a word) to the population from way back.

Canada as a country is officially bilingual as well as 1 province (NB). Quebec as a province is officially french.

I'm proud to say that I have a french heritage but I don't share the same worries of losing that heritage in any forseeable future, as our neighbors do.

Until I sense a strong movement to the contrary from english Canada, I feel that the french language in NA is relatively safe.

 

However, there are small pockets of french communities scattered across the country where the worries of language assimilation are real, but whether or not Quebec separates, would not change anything for them.

I just don't see any kind of 'Quebec french cavalry' stampeding across the country saving the french language.

 

So, basically, what I'm saying is: I don't get the 'loss of french as a language worry' as being a valid enough reason to separate from the country. There would have to be vastly better reason than that for me to appreciate and grasp their movement.

 

I do a lot of work with Bombardier in Montreal and almost all of the folks I work with there still claim French as their primary language. Many of these are young professionals and clearly show that French is still very much the language of the region.

[RonStewart]

Ah. Funny you should mention Bombardier. It is a widely held belief in the west that Bombardier gets far more of its share of federal business and subsidies because it is located in Quebec.

[RodB]

I do a lot of work with Bombardier in Montreal and almost all of the folks I work with there still claim French as their primary language. Many of these are young professionals and clearly show that French is still very much the language of the region.

 

Yes it is and will be for long time.

[RodB]

It is a widely held belief in the west that Bombardier gets far more of its share of federal business and subsidies because it is located in Quebec.

 

‘Widely held beliefs’, perceptions, speculations & misconceptions are the root of many conflicts. This west/east – English/French argument is pretty much that. The Quebec population believe just the contrary. It’s basically a matter of he/she said & he/she said.

It’s almost as if most people across the country, believe there is a dark secret chamber in the Canadian parliament where sinister politicians gather in the middle of the night to divvy up the federal money unequally amongst the provinces.

Unless I’m provided with the cold hard facts, I will continue to believe that this is not so, but I’ve been wrong before.

 

[RonStewart]

I think the "widely held beliefs" are what Pilgrim is asking for.

 

Me, I have not looked at any data. But it would not surprise me to find that civil servants who are loyal to a united Canada would ensure that Quebec got a bit more than its fair share of the pie so that nobody in Quebec could complain that they were being treated unfairly. I might do the same in their position.

 

That said, the current governing party, with its roots in the west, is less likely to do that, and more likely to have Quebecers crying foul as Rod suggests.

 

I remember a family dinner in 1987. A set of constitutional ammendments called The Meech Lake Accord was on the table that would have (arguably) given Quebec special status within Canada. My one of my visiting cousins from Ontario expressed support for the accord, and the BC branch of the family met that comment with palpable silence. About ten seconds later, the cousin's wife brought up some mundane topic of conversation, and the dinner progressed pleasantly.

 

I bring this quarter-century-old reminiscence to the discussion to illustrate the regional nature of the subject. We might say that Ontario feels a closer relationship to Quebec than does BC or Alberta, and therefore Ontario might be more open to appeasement than the westernmost provinces.

 

Even though I have written a fair bit here, I have not given this topic so much thought in the seventeen years since the defeat in national referendum of The Charlottetown Accord. Let me reemphasise, the Quebec question is really not part of the consciousness here these days.

[Ken H.]

Sherrie and I have a family friend, a French-Canadian woman, now a U.S. citizen, who is vehement on the subject of language (she still sees herself as primarily French, not even Canadian or truly U.S.) Her position is that the French language in North America will not be safe until Quebec is independent.

Personally I think the demise of many native Canadian aboriginal languages is far more of a concern and reality than the potential demise of French in Canada.

[motoguy128]

As someone who's traveled for business to Quebec on several occasions ad is of Quebec ancestory, my take was that there's no risk of them losing their heritage. In some more remote areas, I'm not sure they even knew english, or at least had no desire to speak it. I've had an easier time ordering dinner in France than ordering lunch at a a Subway resurant in Quebec. In France they at least had english menue for travelers. I had to just use mostly pictures and point at what I wanted in Quebec. Overall the people were very friendly, just not terribly accomidating.

 

On the positive, I liked being able to travel a relatively short distance, yet feel like I was truely in a foreign country and enjoy the unique food and culture.

 

 

Ironically, one time I had 2 french colleagues traveling with us. they got held up in customs going into Quebec because of a misunderstanding between the finer points of European French and Canadian French. It was something to do with the difference between traveling FOR work vs. TO work. They had no work visas so of course they could not work there. The 3 Americans in the group had no issue, as we just spoke plain english.