HES Problem or ?? on 2000 R1100RT

[wibeem]

Hi all. I'm new to this board and unfortunately I guess this is my introduction. I'm hoping the combined knowledge here can give me some ideas on a problem I'm having. I picked up a 2000 R1100RT from my dad this spring that was always serviced by my uncle. Nothing major ever wrong with it except the typical surging issues that they fixed a long time ago. 53K miles. I've searched the forums and I'm seeing a lot of things I already tried.

 

Situation:

The bike got wet (rain) a couple weeks ago and after that it didn't want to start. I'd hit the ignition and the started would engage for 1/2 second each time. Hit it a couple more times and it would go. Ran like this for a few days. Popped out the relays and put them back in and it worked fine for another week. Thought I had a bad connection on one of the relays.

 

Following week: drove to work in the rain. It sat it the rain all day. Drove home with no problems. Smelled a little burning or heat but figured it was water hitting the exhaust.

 

Next day:

Killed on my 15 miles from home. Started it back up and made it a few more blocks. Noticed the tach bouncing around when I tried to start it or when I would get it running for a few seconds. Also noticed that the first time it quit on me the RID had "reset". I mean it went blank including the clock. The clock reset to 0:00. Had to get it towed home. Started right up a few days later.

 

Did a little research and found tons of info on the Hall Effect Sensor problem. Tore it apart and tested them (even with a heat gun)..sensors work fine. The wrapping around where the HES wires come together to connect to the harness was split open, but the wires looked fine. Removed it and the wires still looked OK. Wrapped it up with Tommy tape, put it back together and I've got the same issue I had when I was stuck on the side of the road. First it wouldn't start and I saw the tach bounce and heard some rapid clicking near the the fuse box or air filter. Started once or twice, got a little poof out of the exhaust (with a little oil in it...that scares me). Might start, might not.

 

I had also tested the ignition coil and it looked/smelled OK. It didn't test right at the values specified, but I wouldn't think it would be dead.

 

So...I'm kind of stuck. Not really sure what to check or do next. Any ideas??

 

Kevin in Wisconsin

 

 

[BMUU]

Kevin,

 

This may be obvious, but have you checked your battery, battery cables and cable connections at both ends? The fact that the clock resets leads me to believe that for some reason the battery voltage is momentarily going low. Except for one fuse (F3), there’s not much between the clock and battery. You didn’t mention it, but are your ABS brakes passing the self-test, in other words do both ABS lights go out once you start riding? If the battery voltage is dropping below about 10.2 volts on start, the ABS self-test will fail. This would be further evidence that you have some sort of battery / connection problem.

[Matts_12GS]

Sounds like an HES to me. Where are you at? You might just find some folks willing to help you do the replacement or rebuild of the sensor.

[David R]

The last time that happened to me, a fuse was loose. It had worked it way out.

 

David

[Jim Moore]

No start after rain + bouncy tach + 1100 series bike = HES problem.

[OoPEZoO]

No start after rain + bouncy tach + 1100 series bike = HES problem.

 

My thoughts as well. If you already have the sucker out, ya might as well replace the wiring anyway. Even if the HES end up not being the only problem.......if you don't replace the HES wires, it WILL leave you sit at some point. Especially if you ride in the rain.

[philbytx]

+1

Given the age of the bike and the symptoms : ABSOFREAKINLUTELY

 

Go HERE for a new one. John gives great service at fair prices.

[wibeem]

Thanks for the advice. I'm near Madison, WI. The fuses are good and I had already reseated them (nice tight fit). I will check the battery voltage since there was a time recently when the ABS lights continued to flash, but I think that had to do with starting too soon after turning the bike on. Also, before the power commander was installed (years ago), it had quit on my dad about six times (usually while braking) and the clock reset each time.

 

I'll go ahead and rewire the HES. I already sourced the wire from an aviation shop down the road. Anyone think I should replace the sensors while I'm at it? Looks like I can get them for less than $20 each. They tested fine (even with heat) when the part was off the bike. Could moisure actually be getting inside of the sensors?

[philbytx]

IMHO, iff you are happy to rewire and rebuild the HES yourself, why not go for doing the whole magilla

 

There is nothing worse than second guessing yourself, when you are stuck by the roadside in the middle of BooFoo!!

[beckyanne19]

Lots of rain this weekend - after riding through rain Sat and Sunday from Minneapolis to Anamosa and back, my 2000 r1100 rtp left me standing 70 miles from home. Took it to Charlie in Wyzata, and he's diagnosed the HES.

My question - once there's a new one in, is it likely to happen again in the rain soon (design issues) or is it good for many miles (wears out issue)? I plan on a 10 day solo trip next month.

BTW - my former CHP bike has 90,0000 miles.

Thx - Becky

[philbytx]

Becky,

 

Bosch improved the wiring on the newer HES units. Worry not, enjoy your trip

 

 

[flars]

Becky - the HES failure is a function of age and heat. You should be good for several years and many thousand miles. I replaced my HES about 60,000 miles ago ('98 RS)and have not had any problems since, and I ride in a LOT of rain.

There MAY be someone who had a second HES failure after replacing a bad one, but I have not heard of anyone.

 

[flars]

"...I'd hit the ignition and the started would engage for 1/2 second each time..."

Everything except this points to the HES (other than the clock going blank, which indicates the voltage dropped below xx volts). This indicates something else is going on since the HES has nothing to do with whether the starter turns or not.

Also, the power commander tosses additional fecal material into the fan, and can complicate trouble shooting the situation.

[wibeem]

Phil - I agree. I ordered the new sensors this morning from Newark. It'll put my mind at ease.

 

Becky - Thanks for bringing up that question. I was wondering the same thing. Since I'm performing the repair myself, I'll be using harness wiring that can take the heat. I've read that the sensors themselves are not likely to fail, but I can't speak to the replacement units (bracket, harness, sensors). Wyzata - wow, it's been a long time since I've heard the name of that town!

[wibeem]

Geez, I shouldn't take so long to type up my replies (at work, things came up). Sounds like the newer HES units are solid. Good to know.

 

Flars - I'm troubleshooting without the power commander until I'm confident this issue is resolved. I think I'll replace the starter relay to eliminate that as a possible cause of the 1/2 attempts to turn the starter. I *think* reseating that relay fixed that problem, but again, it was after a rain. Not sure what to make of this really. If I had a short in the wiring somewhere because it got wet (i.e. - HES wires), I'm assuming that could result in a drop in voltage that would reset the clock, but I'm kind of a hack when it comes to electronics.

[BMUU]

Thanks for the advice. I'm near Madison, WI. The fuses are good and I had already reseated them (nice tight fit). I will check the battery voltage since there was a time recently when the ABS lights continued to flash, but I think that had to do with starting too soon after turning the bike on. Also, before the power commander was installed (years ago), it had quit on my dad about six times (usually while braking) and the clock reset each time.

 

I'll go ahead and rewire the HES. I already sourced the wire from an aviation shop down the road. Anyone think I should replace the sensors while I'm at it? Looks like I can get them for less than $20 each. They tested fine (even with heat) when the part was off the bike. Could moisure actually be getting inside of the sensors?

 

I’m not saying that you don’t have a flakey HES unit, because you may, but based on the fact that the clock reset SEVERAL times in the past when your dad had the bike, makes me even more suspicious that you have some type of electrical system issue. One thing I’d check would be the negative battery connection to the frame ground. This is one common point to the entire electrical system, and if it’s loose or corroded, it could cause all sorts of problems similar to those you’re describing.

[AndyS]

Don't get too distracted with the clock resetting issue.

This can show itself with tired batteries or bikes that have been leftr a wee bit too long and the batery voltage is not quite up to maintaining it's voltage while cranking.

 

It's all the other clues of the non start and the tacho needle flailing that are more pertinent.

 

Andy

[BMUU]

You are certainly correct about a low battery causing a clock reset, if that were the only problem, but Kevin also noted that the starter wouldn’t pull in and a relay under the seat was chattering. As I see it, when you combine all these symptoms they point to a low voltage situation rather than an HES problem. Even with a defective HES, the bike should still crank normally and there shouldn’t be any relays chattering. The fact that the problem is apparently intermittent leads me suspect a poor connection, rather than a soft battery.

 

It may well be a problem with the Hall Effect Sensor, or some other component. I guess my point was, checking the simple stuff first will often save you a lot of unnecessary work. Ask me how I know this.

[beckyanne19]

I'm assuming it's the HES's age, not mine

Thx.

[philbytx]

HeHe !

 

I believe it depends upon your exposure to heat and temperature extremes Becky

[SKYGZR]

Yet again another reason to : ALWAYS CARRY A SPARE..repeat: ALWAYS CARRY A SPARE...write it out after class 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times..Once you have a spare, you can stop writing.

[flars]

Thought about this situation more last night. Part of your problem has to be the starter. They are famous for letting the magnets roam around inside. If one of them has come loose, it will cause the starter to stall (which you are definitely seeing), and the current to shoot up, thereby causing the clock to reset. I would pull the starter and see if the magnets are in place. Then I would replace the HES, cuz it's time, and because it is also showing the classic symptoms (tach bounce).

/rant/ As far as carrying a spare - if you haven't replaced the HES, and you ride an 1100 (which means it has been around a while), and if you are planning to ride across Death Valley in the summer, or the Donner Pass in the winter - then you should carry a spare. Otherwise, it is a waste of time and money. If you go to the expense of getting a replacement HES, why wouldn't you just put it in the bike. At that point, what is the sense of carrying the spare since no one has reported having a replacement fail? Unless you want to have it so you can brag that you helped someone else out in the middle of Death Valley. You might as well carry a fd bearing and seal, and a transmission input shaft, and a new clutch plate, and maybe a new fuel pump and fuel filter...just to be safe./end rant/

[philbytx]

+1

I R&R'd both the starter (3 detached magnets!) and the HES on my 2000 R1100R. If you need the bits, go HERE. John gives good service at fair prices. And beware of "Chinese" starters on Ebay....stick with Valeo from a recognized disributor

[AndyS]

...As far as carrying a spare - if you haven't replaced the HES, and you ride an 1100 (which means it has been around a while), and if you are planning to ride across Death Valley in the summer, or the Donner Pass in the winter - then you should carry a spare. Otherwise, it is a waste of time and money.....

 

+1 on this, and also I'm with you on the starter issues too.

Andy

[wibeem]

Someone at work heard me trying to start the bike one day and said pretty much the same thing about the starter. However, once I reseated the starter relay (once) I have not seen that particular issue reappear. I only mentioned it in case it would be helpful to troubleshoot the probable HES issue. New sensors on the way, new wiring ready to go. Planning to replace the starter relay just in case and then will check as much wiring I can to look for ground faults. I'm going to leave the starter alone for now (good winter project) and hopefully I won't come back with my head hanging low in a couple months.

 

While I'm at it, I'm tempted to use some tommy tape on the other partially exposed wiring connections I see. At the fuel injectors for example. This bike *will* see more rain and all of these odd symptoms that have only occurred after major rain have me concerned that I'm getting water in more than one place it's not supposed to be. No harm in doing this, right?

 

PS - thanks for all the suggestions...you're all OK in my book.

 

[SKYGZR]

/rant/ At that point, what is the sense of carrying the spare since no one has reported having a replacement fail? /end rant/

 

You must have missed my issue from awhile ago. Purchased a brand new one from beemerboneyard, installed it, problems shortly after. Sent to a member on this board in Canada for testing, sure enough, new failed. Beemerboneyard was kind enough to replace it no charge.

 

Reinstalled the original, after discecting and inspecting it's condition. Has been working fine, the replacement now resides in the tail trunk tool kit.

[philbytx]

Kevin,

 

Please take note that the Valeo starters of that vintage DO suffer from detached magnets. Mine started intermittently and sometimes appeared like it was a battery issue. When it finally died, I discovered 3 of the 4 magnets were detached and jammed together!

 

Just a 'heads up' for you...

 

 

[bereahorn]

 

New sensors on the way, new wiring ready to go.

 

Where did you source the new wire from? Thanks

[wibeem]

Phil (and others)...thanks for the heads up on the starter. I should probably check it out while I have the bike apart. I'm a little hesitant to do that right now because I always try to work on one thing at a time. That way it's easier to diagnose if I happen to introduce a new issue. I'll see how the HES install goes (in the middle of it right now with new sensors riveted in place).

 

Berea - I got mine from a place called Wisconsin Aviation. They do aircraft maintenance among other things. I work by the regional airport and they were located nearby. I'm sure there's a similar facility or two near Cleveland.

[bereahorn]

Thanks.

[beckyanne19]

HeHe !

 

I believe it depends upon your exposure to heat and temperature extremes Becky

 

uh -oh: hot flashes would be a big problem then!

 

Update - Charlie replaced the HES, bike runs great. He said this is probably at least the third one on this bike, and that as a police bike, if it idled and ran hot, that would have caused the HES to fail faster.

[philbytx]

That sounds like a good diagnosis

 

Now all you need to do is enjoy your bike and ride fast to keep that cool air flowing over the HES wiring :grin:

[wibeem]

Finally finished re-assembling my (hopefully) repaired HES unit with new sensors and wiring. When I pulled back a little more heat shrink, I found the insulation on the harness wires to be cracked and starting to fall apart. Assuming if moisture got in there, it would short to ground causing a voltage drop and resetting my clock (among the other obvious issues).

 

Tested new sensors/harness and they functioned correctly. Reinstalled unit and it cranks, but won't start. I have a feeling I'm not getting spark. When I connected the harness to the bike wiring, it went together hard. Does anyone happen to know if the bike will crank without the HES harness connected. I had a heck of a time getting the tank back on after the rubber washered-collar thing that the tank bolt goes through came apart (sorry, I don't know what it's called) and figured I'd at least ask the question before I remove the tank (again) tonight.

[AndyS]

Yes it will crank if it is the same as an 1150.

Check fuses.

 

[Edgar]

There is no need to bolt the tank on until you're sure that the HES is all set. Set the tank up there, plug in the fuel pump plug (you should see the RID on with the ignition on), check that the fuel lines are connected correctly (It's not that hard to cross them)and give it a go. When you initially turn on the ignition listen for the fuel pump to pressurize. If you hear it, try and start it again. Please check all your fuses with an eye on # 3,5,and 6. Even if it looks good swap it out. DAMHIK.

[wibeem]

It's ALIVE! I don't think I had a good connection where the rebuilt HES harness connects to the rest of the bike. Fingers crossed that the problem is solved. Time to take it out for an after dinner ride and see how it runs. Thanks for all the help everyone. Couldn't have figured this out on my own.

[wibeem]

I spoke too soon. Made it through town, out onto a country road and then it quit again. Almost identical to what happened when it died in the first place except the tach isn't bouncing anymore. Just quit running. It was at operating temperature. Went out to fetch it this morning and it started, but died again less than a mile later (not at operating temp).

 

Here's what I know: HES unit rebuilt and tested (I think very well); temperature, speed, wet/dry...doesn't seem to matter; swapped some relays around, swapped the fuses around...problem still exists; I tried to test the ignition coil when the problem first happened and did get some funky/low readings, but I wasn't sure if it was my multimeter or what.

 

Could a failing ignition coil exhibit this behavior? I'm hoping I can do a roadside fix that will at least get it home without having to tow it back (it's only four miles away), but I'm not holding my breath.

[OoPEZoO]

Sure....thats possible. When it doesn't run, have you checked for spark? Check both sides. There isn't much to the R1100 ignition system. You pretty much just have the HES, ECU, coil, wires, and plugs. Having a single coil is a blessing/curse in that it when it craps out you lose spark to both cylinders.

 

When it dies, is the RID still lite up? When you try to restart it......does it crank, but not fire, or how does the bike react when you try and start it?

[wibeem]

The RID is functioning. It cranks, but doesn't fire (except when it starts). I have not checked for spark (yet) because it was firing up in the garage before and after I rebuilt the HES. By the time I got back out to the bike it was raining. When I went out this morning it started. I suppose I could go back out to it and if it starts ride it back until it fails (it will) and then check for spark roadside.

[OoPEZoO]

Ok good, that at least rules out all the safety interconnect switches then. I'm starting to wonder if you don't have a flaky ground connection somewhere. The problem is......you need the bike to be in its non-running condition (preferably in the garage of course) to start troubleshooting it. Aren't intermittent problems fun?

 

 

[wibeem]

Well, the good news is the bike is being towed back to my garage in a non-working condition. The Motronic was throwing code 1133 indicating one of the Hall Effect Sensors (that I just replaced and totally rewired and tested OK). I tried to start the bike a few times to see if the code went away and it did not. Pulled fuse 5 for 10 seconds or so and repeated procedure. Same code. Grrr...

 

Battery was getting low from trying to start it, but checked for spark and was getting good spark from left plug, weak or intermittent from the right. Battery was almost toast at that point. I'll charge it and re-check spark in the morning. I did notice a difference in how the two plugs looked (condition). One tip (right plug) was noticeable whiter than the other.

 

So, before I get too much further into this, I've got to ask. Anybody think this kind of issue could be caused by bad gas? I had just filled up a nearly empty tank (10 miles into it) when the problem first surfaced.

[OoPEZoO]

I suppose it could be bad gas, but I doubt it. I would believe it if it was running poorly, but not a total no start condition. When it dies, does it run rough and sputter to a stop or does it shut the motor off like a switch? When the HES dies, it usually shuts the bike down like you hit the kill switch. It instantly goes from good spark to no spark.

 

The ignition system on the 1100 consists of only one coil. It has one input wire and then two output wires. Each output goes through a plug wire and down to the spark plug. It is especially rare (if not impossible) to find a coil on an 1100 go bad on just one side. A normal coil failure on an 1100 would be either no spark at all on either side, or an intermittant spark on both sides.

 

If you have a weak spark on one side, try swapping the spark plug wires and see if the weak spark follows one of the wires.

[LJR]

Somebody had a short in their wiring harness from the ignition switch recently. Hard to diagnose, might be something to check.

[flars]

The HES error codes 1133 will always appear if the bike isn't running - which makes that code kinda worthless unless you have the computer the BMW shop uses.

A bad spark plug wire should make the bike run rough - not die. So that seems to be out.

A bad coil wouldn't give a spark at all, or a very weak one - i.e. not enough to start the bike. So that is a suspect.

If the hall effect sensor that controls the spark was bad the motronic would shut down the bike because it expects the signal periodically, which is, of course what is happening to you. So the HES is still suspect.

Bad ignition switch, or wire going to the switch? - Could be.

Need to know if there is spark, and whether it is getting fuel to narrow it down further.

Hopefully the bike won't start until you get it figured out.

[wibeem]

I think we've got it narrowed down to the coil, but maybe a brief review is order. Here's what I know so far (updated as of today):

 

1. Intermittent problems getting starter to turn after a rain. Reseated starter relay and the problem went away for good. Now thinking back I do remember getting some hesitation now and then...thought the engine was missing at times.

2. Next major rain, smelled something funky/electrical near the front/top of the bike when I got home.

3. Next day, filled the tank, went 16 miles then just quit. Tach was bouncing and fuel pump was not kicking in or sometimes just briefly and there was a clicking sound near the fuse box (not ABS).

4. After drying out overnight, bike started. Pulled HES unit and found cracked insulation on the wires in the harness. Replaced sensors and rebuilt harness with mil-spec teflon coated 22AWG wiring. Tested good off the bike.

5. Installed HES and bike would crank, but not start.

6. Pulled HES and examined/retested. Tested OK on/off the bike.

7. Reinstalled HES, bike started this time but ran really rough at low idle (knocking). Warmed up, seemed OK. Went for a ride. Quit 5 miles from home, but this time no tach bounce and no rapid relay clicks. RID still on. **Fuel pump pressurizing**

8. Tested for spark. Had spark on one side, appeared weak or intermittent on the other. Battery wore out before I could test further.

9. Today, battery fully charged, fuel pump pressurizes, RID on, no spark, no fuel from the injectors. HES signals OK all the way up to the connector that plugs into the ignition coil when the starter is cranking away.

10. No spark testing the battery direct to coil to spark plug (plugs are known good). Tried known good plug wires, same result.

11. Both spark plug wires read identical resistance values.

12. Coil resistance tested at .7 Ohms on the primary side and 7.3K Ohms on the secondary which I read should be 0.5 and ~13K respectively. Noticed a small (<1/2") crack where the bottom/red part of the coil housing meets the sides.

 

Seems like the HES harness may have been part of the problem, but that I also had a failing ignition coil at the same time. 15 miles the first time it died, 5 miles the next, 1 mile the last time. Now it won't start at all.

 

However, we're wondering if the Motronic is smart enough to detect that no voltage is discharging in the form of a spark or that the resistance through the coil isn't where it should be and decide not to signal the fuel injectors?

 

Appreciate the help you've all provided so far. We just don't have a spare coil (yet) to test with, but we're working on it.

 

[OoPEZoO]

The motronic would have no way of knowing what is going on with the coil secondary. It fires a pulse through the primary coil winding, which causes the secondary winding to fire a simultaneous pulses down the plug wires to the plugs. The pulse then arcs across the gaps of the plugs and the process starts again.

 

I think you are on the right track. If you found any sort of crack in the coil housing, then it is already suspect of having issues regardless of how they ohm out. They are meant to by 100% sealed. Any moisture inside could cause all sorts of arcing and havoc internally.

[Jim Moore]

I12. Coil resistance tested at .7 Ohms on the primary side and 7.3K Ohms on the secondary which I read should be 0.5 and ~13K respectively.

Before you get too excited about that, the 7.3K ohms is good-to-go. The 13K number is wrong. Sorry.

[wibeem]

Keith - are you saying I should have had fuel at the injectors even if I had no spark? That's kind of what we were thinking too, but we don't have fuel there now and we did before we completely lost spark.

 

Jim - The maintenance manual shows ~13K, but someone else (not here) found a different official document that states ~7.something K. Is the 13K value referenced in the repair manual known to be incorrect?

 

Either way as Keith mentioned, the cracked housing, moisture, etc. plus no spark, but good signal all the way to the coil from the HES (also tried different cables and plugs). I'm going to pickup a used working coil I can test with. Since the problem was intermittent, if it runs with the new coil I'll swap the old one back in. If it doesn't run with the old coil...lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Still puzzled by not having fuel at the injectors. I'll let you know if I figure it out.

[wibeem]

Searching for a coil by part number, I stumbled on this thread that seems to explain the different resistance values:

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=343434&page=2

 

[Jim Moore]

Years ago I thought I had a coil problem on my '97 RT. I measured the resistance of the coil. 7.2K ohms. "Yay, I found the problem," thought I. I bought a new one. It also measured 7.2K ohms. Dammit! It turned out to be a totally different problem, but one thing was for sure. Both my old and new coils measured 7000+ ohms, and they were both good. Mick in Tucson claims to have seen on that measured out at 13K. From reading that thread I guess Twisty had one also.

 

My only guess is that maybe real old (1994-1996?) were 13K, but I don't know for sure.