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Fire advice needed


StuGotz

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Firefighters need your guidance:

 

I have a cabin in the Sierra's. I also have a detached carport on the property, and is located 30 ft from cabin. Wood structure, comp roof, open 2 sides.

 

Each year I practice "defensible space" clearing. This includes clean up of pine needles and dead wood matter which can be "combustable". limbs, branches, etc.... 30/70 perimeters.

 

Volunteers in my area cite owners who don't comply with CDF (oops, CalFire) regulations. (I don't know to what expertise they subscribe, perhaps some are retired CDF officials)...This by way of an official "Fire safety inspection" notice on legal CalFire forms filled out by the volunteers.

 

I usually comply early enough to save myself the "yellow" notice some owners get. But, this year I get a notice anyway. Seems my woodpile stored in the carport is NOW in violation. Never had this issue arise before. Never heard of it before. Been in these hills on and off all my life. New rules I guess, fine, but ya gotta let me know the rules ahead of time.

 

How do I comply you ask? The form states I MUST clear 10ft around and 15 ft above the woodpile...WTF? I guess they don't want me storing wood in my carport. :(

 

Another attached sheet states that I MUST move the woodpile as far away from the carport (or cabin) during the fire season. OR/ I must cover the woodpile with a fire resistant non-combustible covering. WTF?

 

Look, I'm all for responsible space maintenance. But what am I supposed to do, move my 3 cord woodpile around seasonally?

 

Need some guidance, perhaps some of you smokies might have a simple answer.

 

thanks in advance,

 

MB>

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I can see the challenge of moving around the firewood but maybe you can store less of it and try to use it all in the winter so by summer time you don't have any and you can order some up from a supplier in the fall...

 

Either that or always store the main pile far from the house and move some to the carport as needed.

 

 

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What was it ol' who's-he-be said in Walden's Pond - fire wood heats twice, the first time when you cut it. Guess in CA land that saying will be amended to heats thrice.

 

We have 24 (face) cord on hand most times. I hate the thought of those restrictions if it means moving it twice but then again (so far) our fire hazard season isn't nearly as extreme as CA's. I do however get a little concerned about fire fuels around our wee wood shingled abode, especially the dried pine needles that accumulate year round. As well as MB, I look forward to any professional replies.

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Are you looking to keep your risk of fire down, or are you looking to comply with a bureaucratic requirement?

 

I'm thinking that the firewood is "inside" the structure, and therefore doesn't create additional risk. Of course I'm an east coaster, where's there's generally plenty of moisture. (We have "mud season" rather than "fire season")

 

BTW, I shelter my wood piles as well--it burns better when you don't have to melt the snow/ice off the wood first.

 

 

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motoguy128

Can you just cover the wood with fire blankets? I don't know what those cost.

 

I am a little confused however. If the wood is stored in the carport, it seems as though it's protected. Although the carport is fully open on 2 sides.

 

Maybe it's time to enclose the carport and make it a garage???

 

 

 

I know... Just errect a water tower and install a sprnkler system for the wood pile. There you go...problem solved. Maybe you can write a grant for FEMA to fund it.

 

Don't they make non-flammable wood. Wood the looks like wood but doesn't burn. :)

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$0.02 from a volunteer, albeit not in CA, not familiar with the topography and fuel loads around your property, and ignorant of the standards your local department might apply, but freshly trained in wildland fire and awaiting my Red Card:

 

The carport is beside the point. It, in a firefighter's view, is just more fuel, and it offers no protection to the contents. 3 cords of stacked firewood is a big fuel jackpot within 30 feet of the cabin -- that's the real issue. I'd move it, permanently, for a few reasons. First, to reduce the risks it presents, not just as fuel for a fire, but also for what it might mean to a fire crew who assesses your property when a fire is near: properties with heavy fuel loads, or that will require some work to prepare for defense, will get passed over in the triage the fire crew must do to get the most from its limited resources. Second, I'm cheap enough that I'd try to avoid a fine.

 

Yeah, it is a PITA, and I agree that if the rules changed, some prior notice would have been nice. But what the fire department is asking doesn't seem out of line to me, based on the little I know about the situation.

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skinny_tom (aka boney)

I'm not a wildland firefighter, nor do I play one on TV. I prefer my fires right where I can find 'em- inside the building. It's also where I can get away from them easily if need be.

 

It's my understanding that a good portion of wildland brush clearing regulations is not only to protect your house from the fire, but also to protect the forest from your burning house. With possible response times that can be longer that the time it takes your cabin to burn to the ground, this could be one of their considerations.

 

I would contact them and ask what it is, specifically, they want you to do, and how they suggest or have seen homeowners doing it.

 

They probably don't want a big pile of wood on the forest floor, but that seems to me what they're asking.

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My thoughts exactly Tom.

 

I thought in addition to being able to season my wood, it was best to get it off the forest floor and into a tightly contained area like the carport. My relatively small but heavily forested lot puts it more at risk under trees, than in the carport. I really don't want to get into trimming tree's just to store a woodpile under them.

 

Oh, I forgot in my original post not all of the wood is ready to burn, and needs another 6-8 months for full seasoning. Most of it is hardwood oak (no pitch).

 

Waiting to hear from our distinguished gentleman up north.

 

:lurk:

 

Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'

 

MB>

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Gary in Aus

First qualification is that I know bugger all about your fire conditions but it has always worried me about the shingle roofs in fire areas? We once rented a substantial residence at Lake Tahoe that housed our two families for a couple of weeks, I was paranoid about a timber house with a timber roof amongst pine trees with pine needles covering most things . The agent gave me some funny looks when I asked for a copy of their fire evacuation plan ,apparently many people don't ask for it.

 

Comment about your fire wood.

 

In Australia we are very familiar with bushfires , in a fire in Victoria in 2009 , 173 people died ,several million native animals died and destroyed 1,834 houses.

 

A Royal Commission into this fire episode has made a few reccomendations about improving survival rates and one of these is removing combustible mass from the vicinity of dwellings and a woodpile in a carport would be a good starting point.

 

The commission also advises of other ways of improving the survival of you and your property based on the precautions taken by some .

 

Bushfires are strange events , three houses in a row will be burnt , the next one not and then more burnt. There are a range of factors but the more you can do to survive the better.

 

A substantial combustible mass of fire wood stacked under your roofline /carport would be a good item to remove.

 

On my farm we have always had the woodpile stacked beside a machinery shed and moved to the verandah on a garden trolley.

Since the Victorian fires I have had constructed a three sided colorbond shed 7 metres by 3 metres about 100 metres from the house and main sheds. The closed side of the shed faces the most likely direction for a fire to come from. I have also installed a rainwater tank and with the use of my fire pump we should be able to saturate the shed and deal with any grass fires around it , only if this was a grass fire , if the trees along my creek catch alight the wood shed can burn to the ground and I wouldn't care, I will be trying to save my house and buildings or driving into the middle of my neighbours 2,500 hectare wheat paddock and staying beside his 5 hectare dam.

 

The kids now use the Rhino to stack firewood, also point to note is now that they can use the Rhino more they are always willing to load firewood , they manage to cover about 15 kilometres in the 100 metre distance from shed to house.

 

What reason did they give you for wanting you to move the woodpile?

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Gary in Aus

Also meant to add that 30 feet{9 metres} when a bushfire is roaring through is just too close , mind you in the middle of a big fire a kilometre is too close.

 

I still consider the most important part of surviving a fire is a viable evacuation plan , if you plan to leave, leave early.

 

Only stay if you have a fire bunker as a last resort and let the authorities know exactly what you are doing , they shouldn't have to put their lives in danger because of your decision making ability or lack of it. They could be doing something else other than looking for your remains.

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RonStewart

MB, do you get the sense from these replies that you are trying to have your cake and eat it too? You need fuel in winter, but cannot keep it near your cabin in summer. Looks to me like a steel woodshed would be a viable, if expensive, solution.

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Nice n Easy Rider

Any possibility of finding an old, used flat-bed trailer with open (e.g., mesh) sides that you can move away from the cabin in fire season and back to the carport area in winter? I'm talking about a good sized trailer like something that might be used to haul smaller-sized construction equipment.

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Looks to me like a steel woodshed would be a viable, if expensive, solution.

 

That what I'm wondering.

I would stop in at the station & have a talk.

Perhaps you could simply fabricate a wood frame around the pile & cover the frame with corrugated panels.

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Looks to me like a steel woodshed would be a viable, if expensive, solution.

 

That what I'm wondering.

I would stop in at the station & have a talk.

Perhaps you could simply fabricate a wood frame around the pile & cover the frame with corrugated panels.

 

Ding, ding, ding, ding....we might have a winner.

 

Thanks Eric. I think I'll check this idea out.

 

MB>

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Be sure to check out the new "Ready, Set, Go!" plan which will become the new standard in CA. This was a direct response to the devastating loss of lives and property in the Victorian fires of 2009 Gary mentioned.

 

We had a pretty wet winter this year and the invasive grasses and other non-native flash-y fuels are all over our mountains and hillsides. It's going to be a tense fall for us down here . . . with still no San Diego County Fire Department in sight. :cry:

 

Edit: here's more good info from CALFIRE to get you started.

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Thanks Jamie, I was hoping you'd post to this thread. While we don't have the extended wild fire season that you do we still have such a season. I look forward to reading all recommendations as we don't really have any developed protocols here - other than, when not to have open fires etc.

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Thanks for the CalFire info, but I'm already ALL over it...except for the woodpile in the garage. :(

 

Checked out some fibreglass blanket material. Commonly known as "welding curtain"..I'd forgotton about it, then guess what I did at work last week.. :dopeslap: Ya got it, welding. Yes electricians weld sometimes, and yes I'm certified.

 

I'm gonna run it by Cal Fire though...gotta get their blessing ya know.. ;)

 

Can anyone tell me why it's CalFire now and not CDF?

 

I miss Smokey...(only you....) :grin:

 

I missed the explanation.

 

Again thanks for all replies.

 

 

MB>

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Hey Paul! :wave: (Hey, Kath! :wave: )

 

Yeah, you've got it much better there in "wet and green" country as far as wildfires/forest fires go. We actually leased a few Canadian fixed wing aircraft from y'all in August after your fire season had ended and ours was just gearing up. Our fire season actually starts last month and goes until the few rains we normally get around December. We just had a few acres break the other day when someone clearing brush with a weed whacker (with a steel cutting disk instead of line) caused a spark which touched off a small fire. Fortunately, it was not a Santa Ana Wind Condition day and we jumped on it fairly quickly. We've already had a dozen or so wildfires in SoCal this season, but the fun starts when the brush has really dried out by October/November and the hot, dry winds start to howl down the back country canyons where all of the anti-tax people like to build their tinderbox homes cozily nestled amongst the trees. :dopeslap:

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Can anyone tell me why it's CalFire now and not CDF?

 

MB>

Hey Mark! :wave:

 

The California Department of Forestry (CDF) began to branch out to do more than just "forestry" a number of years ago. While their primary responsibility is State Responsibility Areas (SRA's), they also were contracting with other populated areas in the vicinities of their SRA lands. In some cases they almost completely run the County Fire Departments of some CA Counties. As such they do more than just forest management. They consider themselves a "real Fire Department" with Type I Engines (structural firefighting like boney and I do), trucks, ambulances and chief management all the way up--so their name should reflect that fact. In any cross-jurisdictional major event they often end up taking command (like the Feds/FEMA/FBI moving in on a major security issue). "We're CALFIRE, and we're not just about forests anymore." The problem in my county is that our politicians won't spring for adequate coverage and CALFIRE only provides for two full-time firefighters on a rig and the balance is supplied by volunteers. They have a huge attrition problem with the volunteers, not to mention they all have day jobs and can't always drop everything to come running or afford to be gone on a major campaign for a week or more. The county is spending a LOT of money to train these guys and gals--only to see them leave and get a real job somewhere else and they are replaced by another total greenhorn who can't be left unsupervised. That is unless they're completely un-hire-able elsewhere because they suck or have some other fatal flaw, in which case they stick around much longer and can be an equal liability to us getting our job done quickly, efficiently and safely.

 

It doesn't help that we're also in the corner of the state and by the time the cavalry arrives, we're either in the mop up stages and/or the major damage has been done (2003 and 2007).

 

Oooops! :P

 

[/sermon]

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Hi Jamie, and thanks for the reply.

 

2 full timers per rig...sheesh!! yep , that'll get the job done.

 

Ya do have some strange politics down there, and it's up to you to change it... :grin:

 

We'll talk more in person.

 

Give mama the big hug.

 

MB>

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Update:

 

After talking with CalFire, the following is evident:

 

Lost. I'm not saying who... :eek:

 

First, I specified covering the woodpile with a fire/splatter/spark resistant fiberglass based welding curtain. Let me talk with the Chief, the tech says.

Chief says " cover it with a tarp"...I ask what kind, Chief says "canvas"...I say ,wait that's a combustible material? Tech says" you really need to move woodpile out of the carport and away from all structures and cover it." I say cover with what? He says canvas tarp...WTF?....I ask who did the inspection, no one knows...

 

Get the idea I'm goin' backwards here?

 

Does anyone know WTF they are talking about?

 

One thing I do know, they really don't want me burning wood anymore.

 

If i knew about as little in my job as these folks, I'd be out on my ass a long time ago. For sh*t's sake, take a little pride in your damn job and learn all you can about it... :mad:

 

MB>

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Couchrocket
Update:

 

After talking with CalFire, the following is evident:

 

Lost. I'm not saying who... :eek:

 

First, I specified covering the woodpile with a fire/splatter/spark resistant fiberglass based welding curtain. Let me talk with the Chief, the tech says.

Chief says " cover it with a tarp"...I ask what kind, Chief says "canvas"...I say ,wait that's a combustible material? Tech says" you really need to move woodpile out of the carport and away from all structures and cover it." I say cover with what? He says canvas tarp...WTF?....I ask who did the inspection, no one knows...

 

Get the idea I'm goin' backwards here?

 

Does anyone know WTF they are talking about?

 

...

MB>

 

Slow learner. When the "Chief" said cover it with a canvas tarp, you shoulda just said, "Yes sir." Problem solved.

 

The defining statement here:

 

"Volunteers in my area cite owners who don't comply with CDF (oops, CalFire) regulations. (I don't know to what expertise they subscribe, perhaps some are retired CDF officials)...This by way of an official "Fire safety inspection" notice on legal CalFire forms filled out by the volunteers."

 

Amateur safety inspector gets carried away. CalFIRE doesn't want to "dis" their volunteers. Stupid decision made, violation issued. Chief offers "face saving" solution (notice I didn't say "logical").... take it!

 

Given the absurdity of the original citation, this never had anything to do with fire safety in the first place. If you want "belt and suspender" vis acutal fire safety, build yourself that little tin shed inside the carport that another poster suggested. But, I suspect your wooden car port would burn down on top of your wood pile in a real firestorm.

 

Thanks for the chuckle! :grin:

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Slow learner. When the "Chief" said cover it with a canvas tarp, you shoulda just said, "Yes sir." Problem solved.

Thank YOU for the chuckle, "Chief"! :rofl:

 

I don't want to dis the volunteers either (I started out as a volunteer myself in the PNW), but you get what you pay for. If one wants to live in "God's County" and be a rugged individualist by all means knock yourself out. If one wants a professional, reliable response to one's emergency when everything's going sideways it's going to take commitment of a financial sort.

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Couchrocket

Slow learner. When the "Chief" said cover it with a canvas tarp, you shoulda just said, "Yes sir." Problem solved.

Thank YOU for the chuckle, "Chief"! :rofl:

 

I don't want to dis the volunteers either (I started out as a volunteer myself in the PNW), but you get what you pay for. If one wants to live in "God's County" and be a rugged individualist by all means knock yourself out. If one wants a professional, reliable response to one's emergency when everything's going sideways it's going to take commitment of a financial sort.

 

Yup... pretty much. :thumbsup:

 

It will be interesting to see what happens if we have a severe fire season and a bankrupt state.

 

One of the scary visions is of the state master mutual aid system crashing because all the local departments who have supported it for decades not being able to participate due to financial collapse, locally.

 

Even 10+ years ago, I began to see reluctance from our Operational Area members to send resources very far from home. It could get a lot worse. Seems odd to me at a time when our interoperability is getting better and better.

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It will be interesting to see what happens if we have a severe fire season and a bankrupt state.

 

One of the scary visions is of the state master mutual aid system crashing because all the local departments who have supported it for decades not being able to participate due to financial collapse, locally.

 

Even 10+ years ago, I began to see reluctance from our Operational Area members to send resources very far from home. It could get a lot worse. Seems odd to me at a time when our interoperability is getting better and better.

We don't want to see that either. Believe me Chief, we're working HARD on it!

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Gary in Aus

Bit confusing with the tarpaulin ??

 

Our fire service provided a very sound reason about removing the amount of combustible mass away from structures , as this volume of material is reduced ,survival of people and stuctures are increased.

 

I was happy to listen to the experts . We have good experts.

 

This is a similar shed to my new woodshed, fairly cheap , couple of mates ,BBQ and beer and slab installed , further BBQ and beer and shed erected {fairly closely to instructions}.

 

It's behind some trees and can't be seen , not the most handsome of structure but does the job, I burn Yellow Box and variety of gums so the longer they sit the better they burn

 

http://www.buyashed.com.au/3mx6m-utilty-shedcolorbond-p-29.html

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Given the absurdity of the original citation, this never had anything to do with fire safety in the first place.

 

Help a lowly volunteer FF out here: I understood the OP to state that there are 1 - 3 cords of firewood stacked within 30 feet of a cabin, albeit in a 2-sided wooden carport. Is that not a risk? If it is, what about abating it would be absurd?

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