Metzler 880 tire wear... Left side.... What gives ??

[pjw73nh]

Well, I've seen several posts here referencing this phenomenon but I have to say "There's GOT to be a better explanation" than:

 

1. Left turns are more distance than right turns.

2. The roads are crowned in the center.

3. They all do that... (Does anyone else find this unacceptable?)

4. The gas tank causing unbalanced COG

 

See my front tire: here

 

My Honda, 2 Yamahas and 3 HD's didn't have this issue.

 

This tire has a little less than 7k of very easy miles on it. Mostly commuting. The previous set of tires (same brand, make and size) went 12k and did not wear off center. Both wore pretty flat. The rear moreso.

 

I am thinking that with the braintrust in this forum, someone HAS to have found out what the REAL cause is? Bad tire?, Some kind of alignment/torquing when replacing the wheel on the fork?

 

It has to be something like that. Or is this like the spline shaft issue where there are a handful of hypotheses, and no one really knows for sure and I'll just have to pick the one I like the best.

 

Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions? I'll listen.

 

Thanks

 

Paul.../NH

 

 

 

 

[DonW]

" Mostly commuting" I believe is the answer. I've bought several bikes (3 out of 12) that had worn left sides on the tires. All were "mostly commuting" bikes, and I presume that the road crown of US highways and freeways is the culprit.

 

IMHO,

 

Don

[Traveler]

I haven't seen a road with a crown that will get that far over on the side of the tire.

 

Looks like you are a NASCAR fan and only turn left?

 

Tire pressures?

[T__]

Don, pretty easy to tell what caused it.. Just get a helper or two to help you lean the bike over until the worn place on the tire is flat on the road (if it isn’t touching the road it isn’t wearing).. Then match that lean angle up to your riding or road crown..

 

If you lean to that point on L/H turns you have found what caused the wear.. If you normally lean the bike that far while riding straight down the road you have that answer,, if you ride roads with THAT much crown on them (wow that would be some road) you again have your answer..

Again if the worn spot isn’t touching the road it isn’t wearing..

 

Or if you want to look into it farther just find a straight crowned road & stand the bike up straight,, then paint the front tire with white paint,, then without leaning the bike ride straight down the road a ways.. Where you find the paint worn off is what part of the tire is wearing on that crowned road..

 

For what it’s worth my money is on left hand corners matching up..

 

 

Twisty

 

[philbytx]

Another note:

When PROPERLY mounting the front wheel to the downtubes, you need to position the wheel correctly by bouncing the front forks (pushing and braking) before tightening up the fork clamps on the axle. Just a thought.....

 

 

[boatzo]

Paul,

 

I had that problem 2 or 3 sets of tires ago. Turned out to be fork alignment. I found that the axle would not slide easily from side to side. With the wheel removed, I loosened the bridge bolts and aligned the front axle. Then replace the tire and do what Philby says. I have had even tire wear ever since on all subsequent sets of tires.

 

Here is another thing I noticed. With cases off, on a straight road, I set the throttle lock and tried riding hands free. I found a very slight PTTR. Then also noticed that the pttr changed somewhat with windshield height. IOW, the aerodynamics of the windshield at different heights affected the balance of the bike. (Z tech "V" stream)

 

I now ride with my spare oil, air pump and, water bottles in the left side case. Right case usually empty. I have even tire wear and PTTR is almost unnoticeable.

 

 

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

I have a theory of a contributor (only) that only the wrong side of the road members could address.

On this side of the pond, left hand bending roads have a farther vanishing point than right hand bends. Hillsides, parked cars in the way, etc. Higher speeds = deeper lean angles = higher front tire thrust = left hand wear.

I'd be interested to hear what the Brits or Aussies have to say about left vs right side tire wear.

 

This had probably already been asked he thought as he typed away at his desk trying to avoid doing some real work today...

[Boffin]

Sorry, the LH side of my front wears out first, so it is not the road crown or LH corner speed/distance.

 

 

Andy

[cycleman]

From what I've read on other posts & sites the tire wear mentioned is usually caused by a front to back tire misalignment.

 

As others have noted it could be something with the forks or front axle. Some of these bikes ( 1100 ) have a spacer between the rear wheel & the rear axle. If the rear wheel has the spacer there is a tolerance level with it and some have changed to a different thickness. Finally the loading of the bike could be a cause.

 

You can check the front to back alignment by using two long straight pieces of lumber or steel. Lay them under the bike with them touching up against the sides of the rear tire. Measure the difference on the sides of the front tire. Reverse this and put the lumber or steel alongside the front tire and see where they lign up on the rear tire. If when doing either the front or the rear, you should stand back aways and long down the path the lumber or steel takes and you should be able to figure out if its the front or rear that is out. You will probably need somebody to help hold the bike as you might have to put it on the centre stand. I guess you could use a laser level device to do the same thing. ( I sometimes forget about the new stuff out there. )

 

Like a lot of things with bikes its a process of elimination. Do the easy stuff first & then move on.

[T__]

cycleman, you do realize that on the BMW oilhead the rear wheel doesn’t track directly behind the front as designed or built? There is an offset..

 

Twisty

 

[Selden]

Paul,

 

I had that problem 2 or 3 sets of tires ago. Turned out to be fork alignment. I found that the axle would not slide easily from side to side. With the wheel removed, I loosened the bridge bolts and aligned the front axle. Then replace the tire and do what Philby says. I have had even tire wear ever since on all subsequent sets of tires.

 

Here is another thing I noticed. With cases off, on a straight road, I set the throttle lock and tried riding hands free. I found a very slight PTTR. Then also noticed that the pttr changed somewhat with windshield height. IOW, the aerodynamics of the windshield at different heights affected the balance of the bike. (Z tech "V" stream)

 

I now ride with my spare oil, air pump and, water bottles in the left side case. Right case usually empty. I have even tire wear and PTTR is almost unnoticeable.

 

Gold star to boatzo. In the OP, the fact that previous tires on this same bike didn't wear this way seems like the critical clue. I have also removed the rear wheel spacer, and moved my bad weather gear bag to the left case, reducing PTTR to an almost unnoticeable level.

[Paul Mihalka]

Old story. Was well known as "PTTR". Pull To The Right. Some bikes have it a little, some have it a lot. Check if riding in a straight line and let go of the handlebars, the bike runs off to the right. If it does, to go straight you are continously counter steering to the right, wearing more the left side of the tire. It is caused by a misalignment putting more weight to the right of the wheel center line. Solutions: a: live with it. b: take out the shim between the rear wheel and the rear drive, moving the rear wheel 2mm to the right improving the balance. c: Work can be done to move the swingarm over to the right up to 2mm additional. These steps corrected the significant PTTR of my 1999 R1100RT.

[T__]

 

You guys must have some serious pull to the right to have to lean your bike over the 30° or so it would take to wear a tire this far off center..

 

Twisty

[Paul Mihalka]

Well, I did not have to lean over 30" or 30 degrees but my front tires looked just like this. Pulling the shim and moving over the swing arm corrected both the PTTR and the tire wear. I would think it is not a matter of leaning, but by counter steering to the right but going straight you scrub the left side of the tire a bit sideways. I was not the only one who had the problem and the correction.

[RTCHIEF]

RT11XX's are laterally out of balance. If you set about 4' to the left of center the bike will stop eating the left side of the tire. Wait until you have a front tire all chewed up, then try setting to the left.

 

I solved the left side tire wear and fast wear by switching to a GS's.

[T__]

Paul, if the part of the tire that wears isn’t touching the pavement it can’t wear or scrub,, going down the road no matter how much you counter steer you can’t scrub a tire that far of center unless you are leaning the bike..

 

Simply paint a tire tread & ride the bike straight down the road & see what it takes to get tire wear that far off center..

 

You guys must have some serious PTTR is all I have to say..

 

Some reading—

 

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/tirewear/

 

Twisty

 

[upflying]

Can engine torque contribute to uneven tire wear? BMW crank shaft is longitudinally mounted. You can feel the engine torque trying to twist the bike while stopped. Can that twisting force affect tire wear? Is one side of the bike "heavier" than the other due to the physics caused by torque?

 

[T__]

Bob, the engine twist you feel when revving the engine while sitting still is the old action/reaction thing.. The rotating mass in the engine (flywheel/crankshaft, etc) tends to want to stay at the same rotational speed so when you revv the engine in place the motorcycle chassis reacts in the opposite direction..

When going down the road the engine torque reaction is against the final drive & then changed into tire rotation in the forward direction.. If you plopped it into neutral & quickly revved the engine you would again get some chassis twist but under normal propulsion going down the road everything is spinning the same so no (or very very little) torque reaction.. Probably more reaction to gyroscopic forces..

 

Twisty

 

[effexer1]

I thought mine wore on the left side because I feel more comfortable taking left hand turns, I can lean over much more than to the right. I know, I need some ride schooling!!!

 

My buddy has a 09 Gold Wing, and his ME880 wore on the left, just like mine does. He blamed the tire and switched to something else. I might give another manufacturer a try also.

[Polo]

Anybody know where I can find the rake/trail figures for an 1100, and 1150 RTs?

 

@@@

 

Nevermind, found them:

 

1100 - 27.2/4.8 56.3 wheelbase

1150 - 26 /4.3 59.7 wheelbase

[boatzo]

Steve, it is not the Metzler tire. I have had it happen with other brands until I got the alignment right. I have ME880s on now, running true, and it looks like they will never wear out.

[pjw73nh]

Hi folks,

 

Thanks for all your replies. I find the diversity of them fascinating. Naturally, I have a few questions. Oh and yes, if I let go of the handlebars, it pulls to the right. I can get about 1-2 seconds at around 30 MPH before I hit the gutter.

 

Philbytx:

When PROPERLY mounting the front wheel to the downtubes, you need to position the wheel correctly by bouncing the front forks (pushing and braking) before tightening up the fork clamps on the axle.

I couldn't find a procedure in the manual for this. It basically just said to "turn the quick release axle until it slides in easily". Is that all there is to it? Am I missing anything?

 

Boatzo:

I had that problem 2 or 3 sets of tires ago. Turned out to be fork alignment. I found that the axle would not slide easily from side to side. With the wheel removed, I loosened the bridge bolts and aligned the front axle. Then replace the tire and do what Philby says. I have had even tire wear ever since on all subsequent sets of tires.

I am unclear as to what you mean by "aligned the front axle". Can you expand a bit for me ? Which bridge bolts?

 

Selden:

Gold star to boatzo. In the OP, the fact that previous tires on this same bike didn't wear this way seems like the critical clue. I have also removed the rear wheel spacer, and moved my bad weather gear bag to the left case, reducing PTTR to an almost unnoticeable level.

Are you talking about the washer in the attached pic? If so, is it as simple as that. removing the wheel and removing the washer? Does that affect my abs sensor depth setting? Any other settings?

 

Paul Mihalka

Solutions: a: live with it. b: take out the shim between the rear wheel and the rear drive, moving the rear wheel 2mm to the right improving the balance. c: Work can be done to move the swingarm over to the right up to 2mm additional. These steps corrected the significant PTTR of my 1999 R1100RT.

You mention moving the swing arm over (if I need to). A. You mention your 99 1100RT. Does this apply to an 02 1150RT and B. Is it a big job?

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Paul.../NH

[Paul Mihalka]

Swing arm mounting is the same on the R1150 and R1100. Moving the swing arm over is a bit of a job. Take out the right pivot pin (may need heat for that) and find or fabricate a 2mm washer to put under it. retighten. Adjust in the left pivot pin that now will have 2mm slack.

[T__]

Hi folks,

 

clip~ take out the shim between the rear wheel and the rear drive, moving the rear wheel 2mm to the right improving the balance. gain for all your help.

 

Paul.../NH

 

pjw73nh, on the 1100 with the brake disk mounted to the final drive no problem.. On the 1150 with the brake disk mounted to the rear wheel remember if you remove the wheel spacer that will also move the rear brake disk in relation to the rear caliper as the caliper is mounted to the final drive..

 

If worn brake pads & smooth sliding caliper it will probably work but if new thick brake pads & or a sticky sliding rear caliper you could have rear brake issues..

 

If you remove the wheel spacer on the 1150 make darn sure you not have a binding or tight rear brake after it heats up going down the road..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Paul Mihalka]

"pjw73nh, on the 1100 with the brake disk mounted to the final drive no problem.. On the 1150 with the brake disk mounted to the rear wheel remember if you remove the wheel spacer that will also move the rear brake disk in relation to the rear caliper as the caliper is mounted to the final drive.. "

 

Sorry, I forgot about that...

 

[boatzo]

Paul, re:fork alignment. With the front wheel removed,The front axle should slide freely into the left fork. If it binds or you have to force the fork to get the axle to slide in, then alignment is needed. The Bridge is the piece above the fender that holds the two forks together. There are bolts on that piece, that when loosened, allow a slight alignment of the forks so the axle can slide freely. This made a very big difference on my bike. It was all I could do to get the axle out and was very difficult to get it back in. The tire had been replaced by a dealership previously. Once I loosened things up the axle would slide into position as it should. I had taken the bike back to the dealer and asked about the excessive tire wear and was told "TADT, it is the crown in the road". Well BS !!

 

Hope I explained this better.

[pjw73nh]

Gentlemen,

 

Once again thanks for all the information. Just when i think I know it all, there's more :-) ...

 

At this time, I am going to opt out of the swing arm mod.

 

My rear brakes are brand new (<500 miles on the pads). I will probably not mess with this now, perhaps later. Do I understand correctly, that it is pretty straightforward to remove the spacer, but I will need to readjust the ABS ring sensor gap, AND double check that the rear pads are not rubbing and that the caliper slides free?

 

I will actively look into the fork alignment. Thank you for the clarification.

 

I have not had 2-3 people available to me to try and match the left flat area with the road crown by leaning the bike. Hopefully I will get to this over the weekend.

 

I (sort of) took Twisty's idea of painting the tires, but in reverse. I drove on dry pavement to clean the tires off, then I drove on my dusty garage floor in an upright position, then immediately put the bike on the center-stand, and took a couple of videos of the dust pattern on the tires. If I did this right, they should be:

 

here (front) and: here (rear)

 

They look pretty good (centered) to me. How do they look to you?

 

There are two other factors that may come into play. 1. The back tire (and final drive, shaft, and trans) was off for the spline shaft and clutch surgery 500 miles ago. And 2. There was a period last summer where the tire was run low for a period of time. I don't know how long, but I don't thin it as very long. It was down to around 20 lbs. I found no leak and check them often now. In any case I would think a low tire would wear on BOTH sides evenly like a car tire.

 

One more thing I noticed that I previously left out by accident, but I believe is relevant. When I transition from dry pavement to sandy pavement (like in parking lots), I get a "squirrely" sensation, like I'm on ice, for just a brief moment until BOTH wheels are on the sandy pavement. I also notice this in parking lots where the sun has heated the black, semi-liquid tar patching material that they put on cracks in parking lots and roadways. When I hit these patches with either tire, it gets a little squirrely as well.

 

So, given the videos, and this new data, any more thoughts?

 

Thanks.

 

Paul.../NH

 

[Paul Mihalka]

Some comments: running at 20 lbs in the tire for a meaningful time will definitely make a existing problem more pronounced. If you can, ride the bike with some weight in the left saddlebag. I would start with may be 10 lbs and then see how much it takes to make the bike run straight with hands off. A little high pressure in the tires is better than a little low. A commonly used high number is 38 front, 42 rear.

[Haynes]

I think the wear is too far to one side to represent an misalignment issue. My tyres wear in the same way but on the opposite side (Australia).

It's not the crown on the road, I believe that it is that your bike travels faster and takes a longer track around your left hand corners so more wear takes place in that part of the tyre.

[Dave Faria]

GM List. A few years ago I ran thru a pot hole. It was deep enough to leave an fairing mark on the front fender from the above fairing and my rear shock started leaking soon there after. I spent a lot of time checking my alignment. I read earlier in this post Twisty said there is a misalignment from the factory. I'm just curious what others have measured. My front wheel tracks .11inches to the right of the rear tire. BMW spec. is + or -.35 inches. I also do have a small amount of camber. I estimated it to be about -.4 degrees. The way I estimated the camber is I used some thread and two fishing weights. With the tires in alignment I hung the thread and weights over the top of the rear tire and made measurements with respect to the body of the rear tire. Then without moving wheel alignment on the bike I moved the weights and thread to the front tire and took the same measurements. The difference between the front and rear tire is what I called the camber. I played with loosing the bolts/retightening on the forks and "A" link to see if I could get things better - nothing changed. My tires and they are ME880s are wearing correctly. I'm retired and have time to play with things.

 

My bike is a 2004 RT.

[Dave Faria]

Just looking agn at earlier posts. Has anyone ever seen only one of the rear drive pivot bearings collapse???

[T__]

Dave, you are not too far off of nominal design spec.. Your track offset is + 2.8mm & the nominal design is + 3.5mm..

 

That 9mm max offset seems pretty extreme to me as that gives a total rear track deviation of 18mm (.708 inches)

 

 

 

Twisty

[pjw73nh]

Twisty,

 

Not to throw yet ANOTHER variable in here.... But... I am 240 lbs and "stumpy". Short inseam (28"-29"). I use the low OEM seat. It pushes me way forward (nutcracker position). it is on its way out for mod as I type. While I haven't measured the f/r load split, I can almost guarantee it is a lot different than the 49.1/50.9 above. I would guess that a fair amount of my (personal) weight is on the front.

 

Weekend is coming, I'm going to check the fork alignment.

 

Any thoughts on the vid?.

 

Tnx.

 

Paul.../NH

[AviP]

That wear is remarkable.

 

1. Has this bike fallen over?

2. Does it feel like left turns are really easy while right turns need more work?

3. Does it feel that you have to work to keep the bike going in a straight line?

 

BTW, if you reverse the tire you'll have really good tread. Just don't ride it in the rain. Metzler would disagree but then I never understood motorcycle tread patterns since front and rear usually have the same pattern but opposite mounting instructions unlike in a car.

[T__]

Paul, lots of riders ride a little farther forward on the bike like you do.. Obviously the more you load a tire within reason the more it is going to wear.. Maybe add an extra pound or two to the front tire..

 

On your video the contact patch looks pretty well centered.. Maybe a little wide but I would expect that on a tire with a fair amount of mileage on it..

 

As you can see,, that contact patch is no where near the wear band on that tire so just keep leaning the bike until your dust track is centered on the tire wear band.. Then it is just simple matter of matching up what/when you are operating the bike with that much lean on it.. (again if it isn’t touching the road it isn’t wearing) SO,, when is that part of tire touching the road?

 

Added: You would think that if your fork alignment was off far enough to lean the front tire at the angle needed to get tire wear that far off center you could just stand back & see it as the wheel would be leaning pretty heavily between the fork tubes or the fork tubes would be leaning when the bike was straight up..

 

 

 

Twisty

 

[boatzo]

Added: You would think that if your fork alignment was off far enough to lean the front tire at the angle needed to get tire wear that far off center you could just stand back & see it as the wheel would be leaning pretty heavily between the fork tubes or the fork tubes would be leaning when the bike was straight up..

 

 

 

Twisty

 

Guys, Just to (attempt to) clarify my fork alignment comments: My forks were not mis-aligned in the vertical plane (one higher than the other)there by tilting the wheel from side to side. They were mis-aligned where the one fork was further forward than the other. The axle would not slide freely into the opposite fork. Once I aligned this my tire wear problem went away. I hope I explained this properly (better).

[Polo]

I think the wear is too far to one side to represent an misalignment issue. My tyres wear in the same way but on the opposite side (Australia).

It's not the crown on the road, I believe that it is that your bike travels faster and takes a longer track around your left hand corners so more wear takes place in that part of the tyre.

 

So you are saying that you experience this kind of wear on the right side of the front tire?

 

Could you post some pics?

 

According to Boffin, riding on the left side of the road makes no difference. Interesting.

[pjw73nh]

 

Bike was knocked over 6 years ago. Hit and run in a parking lot. Pick up truck backing out of a parking space bumped it on the left and pushed it over on the right side. No major damage, cosmetic only. Right mirror, handle bar end, rear directional, right valve cover.

 

I do not have to work at keeping the bike straight. As mentioned I do have a slight PTTR. The bike does turn left a little "smoother" than right. For example, while i am turning left, in a normal lean, everything feels very smooth. When I turn right (at slower speeds, like entering a driveway or parking lot) , while there is no fighting or work, I notice a "buzzing" vibration commensurate with wheel speed. I attribute it to the fact that the left side of the tire has no tread left, and the right side has all the grooves, nubbies, and tread still present.

 

I actually thought about changing tire directions to double the current wear. Anyone have any thoughts on the safety of this, or some comments? What's the deal with the rain?

 

Twisty, I think you are right. That would be some VERY excessive lean,. There is no way a geezer like me would lean like that on a regular basis, and if i did though, it would most likely be symmetrical.

 

I am waiting for a time when I have a few folks over, and I'm going to lean the bike over and see what the actual lean looks like with that left side contact patch flat on the pavement. Might be little while though.

 

Any thought s on what might be causing the "squirrely" handling on sandy pavement or freshly patched asphalt cracks? Last time this happened, was last summer when I noticed it. And thats when I found the front tire low. I filled the front tire to 38 or 40. It made a BIG difference (expected as it was down around 20). This resolved the squirrely handling too. Not the case now.

 

Thanks

 

Paul../NH

[Mr. Frank]

I'm coming late to the party, but I don't think your tire wear pattern is much different from what I see on other BMW's including my own. For years at the national MOA rallies I've looked at the pile of discarded tires at the vendors who sell tires. The standard pattern on front tires is a band around the center of the tire not too badly worn and then heavy wear off center, especially on the left. One Michelin guy told me that Z rated tires have a belt around the center to resist expansion at high speeds. This part of the tire does not squirm much. Just off the belt is where wear begins.

[David R]

MY opinion on flipping the tire. The directional tread is different front to rear because the rear tire drives the bike and the tread is designed for that and the front tire stops the bike or is driven by the road, so the tread is designed for that. Pilot road II sitting next to me have arrows and this is the way the tread is. Flipping the tire has little effect except in the rain. You would have to do it at 1/2 the tire life.

 

I ran my new metzler Z6 front at factory recommended pressure for solo for a short time and it accelerated the wear on the left side. Once I increased the pressure it seems to wear even. I still have cupping as a result of the low pressure. The previous z6 was worn more on the left, I have since taken out the spacer from the rear wheel and keep my foul weather gear in the left bag. I also run 38 psi in the front instead of 32. It still pulls to the right a little.

 

David