New Rider- Buying R1150RT - give me your input what should I pay THANKS

[moto44]

Hi everyone,

I would say I am a beginner rider with about 1.5 years of commuting. Buying 2004 1150RT with 33k miles which came of the lease. That's all I know and that's all dealer tells me.

What is fair price for such bike?

What should I check on the bike when picking it up?

 

ANY help is highly appreciated !

(Price I would be paying is about $7k and I will be using the bike again mostly for cummuting to work).

 

THANKS a newbie

[ratfink]

Where do u live? Prices vary alot based on locale. Demand and supply in your area.

 

Is this a police bike as indicated by lease? 7k might be high asking price, maybe you can negotiate lower or get some goodies included.

 

Look at the classifieds at this and other forums, craigslist and

check out ebay for comparables. Motorcycle Consumer News publishes an annual list of bike values (for the most part it shows much lower than prices in PNW)

 

Are they offering warranty? Devil is in the details.

 

If the dealer only tells you so much, press for more info or look elsewhere.

 

There is an 02 listed in the classifieds here for $5200,fast red one.

 

BTW welcome to the board and good luck!

[boatzo]

Welcome to the board, give us some info about where you are etc. Ratfink says about everything. Look for service records. IMHO, I think 7k is high.

[moto44]

Thanks, glad to be on this board, I am VA close to the Wash., DC. I think it is not a police motorcycle, dealer did not says so; dealer told me it is coming from BMW Bank- he said probably financed or leased and that is how they got it.

He would not give more details explaining apparently he did not know more.

I am a bit hessitant to go with this since I know so little and price is on the upper end, I think:

I have this vin: WB10499A44ZE92165 and it is ebay bike- link here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300403124781&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

 

Tons of pictures but the picture do not say anything about the technical condition.

 

There are not many these BMW bike for sale in VA. There is no highway patrol so no bike of lease. The closest places that I know sell some are dealers in PA.

 

So I have to fly and ride home or pay someone to transport it.

 

Thanks again for your tips.

 

 

[moto44]

BTW, the price on the link shows $6700 but there is also $250 additional fee, which I only noticed after fact.... so almost $7k even.

Thanks!

[moshe_levy]

FWIW my 2004 RT with 67k miles (but with a few pricey upgrades like Ohlins suspension, PIAA aux lights, LoJack, etc.) just sold at the dealer after I traded it in for about $6.8k.

 

-MKL

[moto44]

Thanks, that probably also indicates that $7K may be a bit too high- maybe so so, but not such a good deal for me.

 

BTW - how much does the mileage affect the technical condition of these bikes (RT). What are the major milestones when one as to perform a major maintenance repairs? or is it ongoing?

Like for example with cars: usually with 60-80k miles most major things need atttention: timing bets, seals, steering arms, etc. Will it make a big diferrence in the 2004 bike with 32K and 64k miles.

Thanks !

[GordonB]

If you can budget $7000, take a look at 2005 RT's, it'll be a great upgrade to Hexhead, if you can afford it.

Since you have the Vin # on the 2004, stop in a dlr and see if they can pull up any svc records off the computer.

[ratfink]

Moto 44:

 

I'm a little confused. Did you already buy this bike. Is buyer's remorse setting in?

 

If you were the successful bidder I'm not sure what to tell you as far as what your obligations are to take delivery or pay for it. I just hope that you are not in for any painful surprises.

 

Good Luck

 

 

 

 

[upflying]

Both valve covers and system cases appear to be scuffed and hashed from drops. Appearance wise, looks like a decent bike for the price.

MFD date on the VIN either says 0505 or 0503. Hard to tell but if it is a 0505, it is a very rare '04 made in '05.

[moto44]

Correct, I did over ebay...and I was gonna send the money and discovered after careful reading there is even more money involved except the winning bid..dealer wants inventory fee...those $250... that's when it hit- the total for the bike.. .buyer's remorse.. I think after all $7k I am not getting a good deal.. so thinking not to proceed. After all until one makes the payment for the goods one has not realy made a transaction.. .may be violation of ebay policy but I will rather take a strike on ebay than not to be happy with the purchase...

[ratfink]

That may be wise. I have bought several used bikes in my time but thouroughly inspected and rode all of them. Even at that I have found little surprises in the first few weeks of ownership.

 

I don't think I'll ever buy one from a stranger sight uneen. High anxiety.

[ratfink]

Correct, I did over ebay...and I was gonna send the money and discovered after careful reading there is even more money involved except the winning bid..dealer wants inventory fee...those $250... that's when it hit- the total for the bike.. .buyer's remorse.. I think after all $7k I am not getting a good deal.. so thinking not to proceed. After all until one makes the payment for the goods one has not realy made a transaction.. .may be violation of ebay policy but I will rather take a strike on ebay than not to be happy with the purchase...

 

Moto44:

 

I looked at that ebay listing and I couldn't find the 250.00 disclosed anywhere.

 

It is listed as being loaded with options but I don't see any.

 

Power windshield and heated grips were standard I thinkthis was a misleading ad by a car dealer that doesn't know RT's very well.

 

 

 

 

[boatzo]

Moto 44.

 

I think you may have a legit dispute on ebay with the seller as there are things not disclosed. Go to the dispute section and ask your questions, you may be able to get out of it.

 

You say a dealer. Is it a BMW dealer? The only 3 dealers that I am aware of in the vicinity of Northern VA are extremely credible and would never pull anything underhanded. MHO/

[moto44]

Ratfink, boatzo,

yes those heated grips and windshield are standard indeed. It is pretty much stock bike. He mentions the $250 in "Other information" section (he has there paragraph "please note").

As Dealer: he seems to deal mostly with cars, here and there some motorcycles. This one and other BMW are only two he has and I think he is selling about 20 cars. So car dealer mostly.

 

But I do not really want to blame him, I should have read all details carefully, there is no excuse, even though it is close to impossible, because everyone has tons of "small letter" text.

 

I rather trying to find out if you guys would say it is OK deal or not so good. And if you would recommend this, say to your friend or you would say walk away. I think so far most opinions were saying the price is a bit high.

 

Thanks

 

[Motodan]

Correct, I did over ebay...and I was gonna send the money and discovered after careful reading there is even more money involved except the winning bid..dealer wants inventory fee...those $250... that's when it hit- the total for the bike.. .buyer's remorse.. I think after all $7k I am not getting a good deal.. so thinking not to proceed. After all until one makes the payment for the goods one has not realy made a transaction.. .may be violation of ebay policy but I will rather take a strike on ebay than not to be happy with the purchase...

 

Sad to say, I've been on both sides of these deals.

 

The #1 problem here is bidding on a bike you apparently didn't read and research enough about AND THEN WINNING THE AUCTION. If in doubt - do not bid, if you don't read all the text - do not bid and if you have to get online and ask folks what to do after you bid and win - do not bid!

 

Call the dealer and tell him you are the winner, but you have cold feet and apologize...tell him you'd like to pay his cost for having the item relisted on eBay. Don't bid unless you understand what you are bidding on and what the total cost will be...in this case all that was spelled out and it appears the pictures were ample to see this bikes cosmetic condition. Or you could find someone on this site who will help you by going and checking the bike out for you. If that check helps then pony up the additional $250.00 and complete the deal you offered. Otherwise - DO NOT BID!

[Caddis]

I would have a really hard time finding an '04 RT with low miles like that for $7,000 in my local area. So as long as it is in good condition and has been cared for, I think that is an excellent price. I have seen some comparable earlier models ('03 or '02) with low mileage advertised around that price, but not an '04, at least not anywhere near me. The '04 model tends to go for a little more because it is a dual spark.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to buy a motorcycle without being able to test ride it in person first, but that doesn't mean that the bike is a bad deal.

 

It sounds like you do what I do, and second guess yourself on large purchases. After I bought my '04 RT a year and a half ago, I kept watching postings to see if I should have waited for a better deal. In all the time since then, I have only seen a couple of deals that I think might have been better.

 

So if the bike turns out to be in very good condition, I think $7,000 is a great price.

 

[ratfink]

moto44:

 

When It comes to this dealer I smell a rat, and it is not ratfink.

 

This guy is very up front about dispalying all his awards and other bsnhe should have clearly displayed his extra fee to plain view. If he hides his fees he will hide other things too.

 

I have to say that you were not very specific either, in your first two posts, as far your level of involvement and what you were up to.

 

Please keep us posted on where the chips fall, could get interesting for someone like me that has never dealt on EBay.

[moto44]

Thanks ratfink and all,

That is precisely how I feel, about this dealer. I also told him straight up. Those six E-bay diploma he displays at the top of his listing do not mean a thing to me and just cloud one's judgment. I would have preferred to read more about the bike and see clearly all the fees. Anyway I should have read all the details which I normally do but overlooked this time... I am also not sure if this is not against Ebay policy- charge more than the winning bid- but I do not want to go into that.

I will talk to him and see...

I also sell on ebay and happened to me couple times that people pulled out.. and the seller gets all the listing fees and final value fees back.

 

So at the end it comes down to 7k for 04 RT .. is it a good deal or too much risk for a bike I do not know anything about and dealer does not tell me anything about. Also me as a beginner I will probably not learn a thing after I see it in person. So my thinking is I should probably take my decision at this point.

 

Thanks!

 

[ratfink]

moto44:

 

I think that the answers to your question lie within yourself.

 

You are preparing to reneg on a deal that you have already commited to and you are the only one that can weigh the consequences to you.

 

Ebay has extensive rules, they should require the disclosure of additional fees right upfront where the mileage, year and model are listed.

 

Personally I would not trust that dealer. I would argue to ebay that he misrepresented "loaded options" It is all standard stuff.

 

We can't inspect the bike or ride for you and even if we did none of us have a crystal ball that shows what will happen when you ride away.

 

Evidently the price is somewhere within ranges of what one might expect for a good bike but I can't tell if this is a good one or not. You've discarded and been dealt your new cards, time for you to decide if you want to call the bet or throw in your cards.

[Skywagon]

I have no dog in the hunt, but the lister has 250 + sells on ebay with 100% positive rating. He may be a flake, but I doubt it.

[ratfink]

Skywagon:

 

That is a good point and undeniable.

 

To me it is outweighed by the fact that he hides his additional fees and presents the bike as loaded with options when it evidently has only standard equipment. An unwary bidder might calculate added value to base price for options. I don't think I would put a New York used car dealer at the top of my sources for a bike.

 

In any event Toyota also had a stellar reputation....until recently.

 

Milk can go sour overnight.

[Motodan]

Responsibility, that's what it comes down to. Did dealer lists bike correctly, I think so. Is it up to the bidder to know what they are doing, I think so. Were there plenty of pictures, yes. Was the $250.00 amount listed in the ad, yes...and anyone would see it if they read all the ad. Was the dealer available to speak to, obviously yes, since OP states he spoke to him. Perhaps OP should have asked a very simple and common question, "What are all the options on the bike?"

 

We are responsible for what we do. We can ask others how to get out of a commitment we've made and attempt to rationalize what we are about to do through others' solicited comments, but it is the OP's responsibility.

 

Too bad we've all lost that important aspect of responsibility for our own actions. At the very least call the dealer and talk to him about the situation...DO NOT run from an obligation because you've decided to make a list of reasons why it is okay to forsake a commitment by asking others if it is okay to do so. Perhaps it isn't a bad deal. Why at one point does one feel "great" about bidding on the information they have and than don't, ALL because ONE didn't ask obvious questions and ONE didn't read ALL the written text regarding the purchase? Nothing has changed in the pictures, price or ability to check it out further per the original ad, other than the fact you won with your bid.

 

Call the dealer and work it out.

[Whip]

The owner of Cycle Gadgets is selling his Demo bike.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190379365376

[tallman]

"Optional" versus "standard

Many bikes were only available w/options so people think of them as "standard".

Not always the case.

 

I would never buy a bike w/out checking it out via someone I knew

or knowing a dealer/seller.

To do so only leaves you open to disappointment.

When working at the BMW dealership I saw my share of eBay bikes that people flew to Florida to buy from private sellers, or even dealers ( ) that made it as far as the panhandle before needing attention.

If it's too good to be true, it just might be.

Caveat emptor.

[ratfink]

Responsibility, that's what it comes down to. ......

 

Too bad we've all lost that important aspect of responsibility for our own actions.............

 

I think the OP has indicated that he is willing to be responsible for backing out of this deal by taking the strike from ebay. Whatever that is.

 

I would strongly disagree with your conclusion; that is a sweeping statement and an unfair indictment of "us all".

 

This is not a level playing field, the used car dealer does this all the time and knows all tricks of hiding the landmines.

 

The OP's ultimate responsibility is to himself and protecting himself.

 

If I were in his shoes I would not agonize over the rationalization aspect for more than two seconds given the dealers conduct so far. I could easily pocket my piety on this one and people consider me a responsible person (except for my exwife) .

 

 

 

[Motodan]

Responsibility, that's what it comes down to. ......

 

Too bad we've all lost that important aspect of responsibility for our own actions.............

 

I think the OP has indicated that he is willing to be responsible for backing out of this deal by taking the strike from ebay. Whatever that is.

 

I would strongly disagree with your conclusion; that is a sweeping statement and an unfair indictment of "us all".

 

This is not a level playing field, the used car dealer does this all the time and knows all tricks of hiding the landmines.

 

The OP's ultimate responsibility is to himself and protecting himself.

 

If I were in his shoes I would not agonize over the rationalization aspect for more than two seconds given the dealers conduct so far. I could easily pocket my piety on this one and people consider me a responsible person (except for my exwife) .

 

 

 

We got one side of the story so far...and the dealer's conduct? You know the dealer? What conduct has he displayed? You say ALL dealers do what? Talk about an unfair indictment. It is absolutely a level playing field if you are responsible about your inquiries, gathering facts and taking a position of acting from knowledge about what you are doing. IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY...DON'T PLAY.

 

Responsibility is not to run and take the least punishment or tell yourself the other guy made me do it. Responsibility is to call the dealer and discuss the situation with him...own up to what you said you wanted to do. It isn't the $250.00 that was printed in the ad (and in most ads you have to read and understand all of it to know what it says...how do you hide text in all the text you should read?) It isn't the options vs stock items or the loaded remark...BMW would say they are "loaded" even as stock. And the OP had ever opportunity to reread, think, call, check and double check...each and every time he viewed the ad, which I'm sure was more than a few times. What it is is...I clicked my bid and won...now I'm not sure I want it, let's see, I might have bid too much, I didn't read the $250.00 fee that was right in the ad, I thought it was loaded...gee doesn't that mean it comes with a 21" Sony HD? Come on! So I'll just not honor my bid and get a stern warning from eBay....OH Gee....look at this listing over here, may be I'll bid on that...oh well.

[ratfink]

Motodan;

 

Let me clarify, my comment was aimed only at the auto dealer in question.

 

But if any industry deserves a sweeping indictment I suggest it would be auto dealers.

 

Year after year they are responsible for far more complaints to the BBB than any other segment. Last year the BBB fielded over 23,000. Cellphone companies were number 2 with only about 18,000.

 

Similar results are reported by the Attorneys General of Oregon and Washington.

 

As a group they do not acquit themselves well.

It is just hard for me to condone their sleezy practices when they come to my attention.

[Skywagon]

Rat..as I said on previous post...no dog in the hunt for me..just opinions. If I wanted a bike, car, motorcycle, airplane, etc and the big surprise that might keep me from buying it was there was an additional $250 fee listed down in the detail, obviously the buyer didn't want it that bad.

 

At a very minimum, I would call the dealer, tell them I didn't see the $250 and try to split it with them. I suspect he will. Again see the ratings by others. Same ad, same fine print, all positive ratings. Do you know how hard that is to do on EBAY? Virtually impossible.

 

When I bought my BMW, I offered the guy $500 less. He said no. I bought it. When I bought my airplane I offered $5000 less, he said no, I bought it. When I bought my wife.....well never mind. The point for me is if $250 is a deal killer, you weren't a buyer.

[ratfink]

Skywagon:

 

Yes I see your point.

 

I saw some things on ebay afew years ago that I wanted to buy. I got pretty frustrated. I would try to enter my bid at the last possible time and I was always either a bit early or too late.

 

I gave up, too time consuming and frustrating for me. Long story short I am not an experienced or capable ebayer.

 

I did notice though that even the best sellers usually had one or two negative comments even if it was from an obvious crank, with a belly full of poison and no leg to stand on.

 

I don't know how someone maintains 100% positive, I am a skeptical guy. A car dealer with 250 transactions and not a single negative sounds "too good to be true" to me anyway.

 

Most of us on this board have been down the road and taken our lumps and learned the hard way. Really a 7k deal on a bike might not be of much consequence. For a young guy, he might really have alot at stake and my concern is really for him. I hope that he advocates for himself well and comes out if this with just a little manure on his boots or better yet a really good motorcyle.

 

 

[moto44]

Skywagon,

I have to dissagree with you...$250 can be a deal breaker but it was not the major reason which I will explain later.

Now why $250 can play a role- some buyers are desparate and need to buy quickly- for those $250 will not stop the deal.

Other (like me) are waiting for a deal- a exceptional deal. I thought I had good deal - not exceptional which I was waiting for but it was OK...(the price was OK but the history- NO information about the bike added a lot to uncertainty; which translates to potential increased cost of repairs, which translates to more money paid later- but I was OK to live with that)- hence the buying decision. Now additional $250 showed up on horizont which tipped the scales to the other side...

 

Now why I really will not buy from this seller. PLEASE LOOK AT THE SECTION OF "NON-PAING BIDDERS" IN HIS LISTING (link below): it is a bunch of lies, missinformation about ebay policies and also threads to ebay buyers; in my view. They cannot to a squat what they mention there. Ebay confirmed me that is the violation. Now what do your think of dealers like that? How can I trust them they are selling what they telling they selling?

 

(Here is again the link for this listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300403124781&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

 

and a small part of the section I am talking about:

 

**********************************************

2. All NPBs will be charged a minimum fee of $300, in addition to any and all liquidated damages which may be incurred by us. Non-payment of this fee and, if applicable, of the liquidated damages will be subject to collection proceedings, legal proceedings and any and all such other actions as may be needed to recover our damages, material and otherwise, in addition to any and all collection and/or attorney fees.

 

Several Non-Paying Bidders (NBP) have attempted to threaten us with a negative feedback and false accusations, as to avoid the NPB fee. We will seek, without exception and to the best of our ability, the dismissal of such members' privileges with eBay, at eBay's complete disposal.

 

 

***********************************

 

Let me tell you if the sale is canceled these guys will have their fee credited back, so what are they talking about ??? !

 

And that is a final reason why I will not proceed.

 

Thanks,

[Skywagon]

Moto...I respect you view, just think it comes from a buyer who didn't take the time to read the ad. What's there today that wasn't there when you placed your bid?

 

The dealer may well be harmed beyond relisting. If there was a legitimate buyer last week when you won the bid, they may well have bought something else.

 

Personally, I can't imagine why you have any issue with the dealer since everthing you are complaining about was there from the beginning.

 

No more comments from me, we will just agree to disagree. Your word in life is just about all you have. Use it wisely.

[Motodan]

Everything in that AD was there from the time you considered your auction bid, your call to the dealer and your winning bid. You should have read and saw all of it from the very start. You now are using the very same AD text to rationalize why you are going back on your word. This is the very reason dealers (sellers) use that very wording you reference...it is their an attempt to put people on notice that bids are a legal offer to purchase. They try to keep the disingenuous from participating...it failed in this instance.

[ratfink]

Moto44:

 

That NPB rhetoric is what made me think it would be futile to try to work something out with the dealer and one more red flag of why I thought he was sleazeball.

 

If his posting does indeed violate ebay policy and they credit his fee does ebay recover that from you or are you off scot free?

 

Liquidated damages from an ebay auction? that guy has to be a real piece of work. My opinion, you a made a deal with the devil and backed out of it at your earliest opportunity. From a spiritual standpoint you should receive a reward.

 

As you have seen it is not too hard to find a travel agent for a guilt trip.

[Motodan]

Ratfink, I understand what you are saying, but hopefully we'll end this by our agreement to disagree.

 

Wasn't the NPR message there when OP made his bid? Did OP read any of this AD?

 

What can be lost in a deal like this is a REAL buyer, the person who came in second in the bidding, the guy whowho might have won and honored his bid. And the loss comes when that second place bidder goes on to a different bike purchase. This is why sellers, try to get buyers, to understand by telling them - Don't bid if you don't really want the bike. They make the text for backing out not a good way to go, so those in doubt will not do what has happened here. In essence they are saying please read all of our Ad first, before you bid...that is the first rule when buying on the internet.

 

A guilt trip is something one goes through when they feel guilt. The only way OP would be on one is if he feels guilt. I think he already did...that's why he posted initially...he was seeking input to rationalize his guilt away.

[tallman]

Link doesn't work for me.

Wish it did so I could peruse the ad and see it firsthand.

Second hand information is rarely accurate in situations like this.

 

Dan,

Spoken like someone who has sold a BMW before.

 

[Motodan]

Link doesn't work for me.

Wish it did so I could peruse the ad and see it firsthand.

Second hand information is rarely accurate in situations like this.

 

Dan,

Spoken like someone who has sold a BMW before.

 

You are right and still do at times.

 

I understand the situation and I can see in some instances why someone might want to back out. As a salesperson, I wouldn't chase people around and try to make them purchase after they've won. However, I DO NOT understand why people do not understand what they sign up for and it irritates me when they rationalize it as okay to bid and not be serious about it. Especially after they have read what the seller was attempting to convey to them.

 

Stating, Oh, I didn't notice the fee being charged, that was right there to read and Gosh, there are now people telling me I might have paid too much...so I'll just not go through with it.

 

It is time consuming to relist and it is near impossible to get the prior "serious" bidders back to the "table". Whew....I'm through. I'm glad I do not make a living doing this...retirement is great!

 

Have a good one in Florida...was down there for our annual weeks in Siesta Key, always visit Hap's, he had more on the floor this year than I've seen him have in last 5 years or so.

[moto44]

To Motordan,

 

do you think people read all the time all the text. I would say I am probably one of those that tries to read most of the staff, very carefull.

If people read and listed as they are supposed to and also understand there would be much less troubles.

There would be much less foreclosures, right? Why did those people not read the entire document during settlement- they spen way more than $7k .. that's my point.

 

This guy puts up all the certificates - 6 of them - and important information is hidden down below- intentionaly in my view.

 

Also he intentionaly put up the "buy it now" price to $8k.. this was no auction, this was listing at fixed price $8k with an option to give an offer. Obviously if you do not do research and snap and pay $8k for this bike - way bad for you.. not good deal.

This is another game to disguise the real value of the motorcycle by overshooting it's value and hoping people will submit offer close to what he wants and that way tricking people into thinking they still got a deal. This guy accepted my offer of $1300 less ($6.7)than his asking price. I might have still offered more than what we was willing to take. But to hell with that I said myself... I will not go the way: offer him $6k , $6.1, $6.2 and wait untill he accepts or also make him mad. I thought let me give him the offer he will take for most likely ... not the lowest I would have bargained for and make a deal.

There was no second buyer that missed out.....

And now addtional fees creep up... well I do not like ....

So many of these tricks sellers pay intentionaly.

 

Also I believe until I pay and take possetions of the bike the trade is not legally done- that's law. I have the right to change the mind..

 

So yes ideally I should have read entirely and not bother to bid, but everyhing is "by the book" and he is actualy in violation in ebay policies with his statements in the ad... so the ad should been probably flagged out and removed in first place...

I will take consequencys for not proceeding with the sale- negative feedback. And sale is canceled .. this is how it is handeled in ebay.

 

 

Also

[ratfink]

Motodan:

 

When I bought my Strom I did alot of tire kicking first, used up alot of salesperson's time drank their free coffee and in one case fouled their watercloset. May have distracted them from a serious buyer, I don't know. Just because I didn't do adeal is not basis for charging me fees or for liquidated damages, just a cost of doing business.

 

I ended up at the local dealer negotiated and made a written offer on abike done on a simple worksheet with the pertinent info and signed by me. The dealer started getting the bike ready and I went in with F&I guy. On the sales contract, on the back in barely readable light gray print was a clause that required, in the event of dispute I give up my right to sue, settle with an abitrator of the dealers choice. I started to blackline it and initail the changes. The F&I said I couldn't do that. Hell yes I can and I did.

 

They wouldn't accept it. They accused me of welching on a legal signed deal. OK so I wasted my time. I had to go to another town and find a dealer that didn't require the clause and didn't even have it printed in his contract. Is the first dealer responsible for my wasted time and effort and the fact I had to go find another seller? Can I sue for LD and enlist a collection agency?

[Motodan]

To Motordan,

 

do you think people read all the time all the text. I would say I am probably one of those that tries to read most of the staff, very carefull. If people read and listed as they are supposed to and also understand there would be much less troubles.

There would be much less foreclosures, right? Why did those people not read the entire document during settlement- they spen way more than $7k .. that's my point.

 

******Excuse #1. Gee the Ad had so many words I could not read them all.

 

This guy puts up all the certificates - 6 of them - and important information is hidden down below- intentionaly in my view.

 

******Excuse #2. Gee they blinded me with their "other" text.

 

 

Also he intentionaly put up the "buy it now" price to $8k.. this was no auction, this was listing at fixed price $8k with an option to give an offer. Obviously if you do not do research and snap and pay $8k for this bike - way bad for you.. not good deal.

This is another game to disguise the real value of the motorcycle by overshooting it's value and hoping people will submit offer close to what he wants and that way tricking people into thinking they still got a deal. This guy accepted my offer of $1300 less ($6.7)than his asking price. I might have still offered more than what we was willing to take. But to hell with that I said myself... I will not go the way: offer him $6k , $6.1, $6.2 and wait untill he accepts or also make him mad. I thought let me give him the offer he will take for most likely ... not the lowest I would have bargained for and make a deal.

 

*******Excuse #3. Gee this is a game and I didn't get a set of the instructions. Really, A seller can ask whatever they want for any item and a buyer can pay any amount for an item. That isn't cheating anyone. An item is worth exactly what any seller and buyer agree is a price at which a transaction can take place. In this case it was your offer plus the $250.00 fee the seller listed in his ad.

 

There was no second buyer that missed out.....

 

********Excuse #4. No one else was there...There is most always a second potential buyer, but you canceled out that potential by making your bid and having the item go off the selling list.

 

And now addtional fees creep up... well I do not like ....

 

*********Excuse #5. You said yourself this fee was listed in the original ad. It didn't just creep up. Next time call the seller and have them read the ad to you so you won't have to out of your way reading it.

 

*********Excuse #6. Gee, they tricked me. How did you get tricked...or did you trick yourself by not reading what was right there in black and white?

 

So many of these tricks sellers pay intentionaly.

 

**********Probably excuse #7. But I really can't figure out what you mean, but I'm sure it is the "other" guys fault.

 

Also I believe until I pay and take possetions of the bike the trade is not legally done- that's law. I have the right to change the mind..

 

Not sure about that statement, but whatever suits your goals I guess.

 

So yes ideally I should have read entirely and not bother to bid, but everyhing is "by the book" and he is actualy in violation in ebay policies with his statements in the ad... so the ad should been probably flagged out and removed in first place...

I will take consequencys for not proceeding with the sale- negative feedback. And sale is canceled .. this is how it is handeled in ebay.

 

 

********Whatever. However, perhaps taking some courses in contract law, philosophy of responsibility and sentence structure (which I could no doubt use myself) might make better use of the $7,000.00.

 

Hope it all works out for all involved...enough said.

[Motodan]

Motodan:

 

When I bought my Strom I did alot of tire kicking first, used up alot of salesperson's time drank their free coffee and in one case fouled their watercloset. May have distracted them from a serious buyer, I don't know. Just because I didn't do adeal is not basis for charging me fees or for liquidated damages, just a cost of doing business.

 

I ended up at the local dealer negotiated and made a written offer on abike done on a simple worksheet with the pertinent info and signed by me. The dealer started getting the bike ready and I went in with F&I guy. On the sales contract, on the back in barely readable light gray print was a clause that required, in the event of dispute I give up my right to sue, settle with an abitrator of the dealers choice. I started to blackline it and initail the changes. The F&I said I couldn't do that. Hell yes I can and I did.

 

They wouldn't accept it. They accused me of welching on a legal signed deal. OK so I wasted my time. I had to go to another town and find a dealer that didn't require the clause and didn't even have it printed in his contract. Is the first dealer responsible for my wasted time and effort and the fact I had to go find another seller? Can I sue for LD and enlist a collection agency?

 

The answer is YES you can sue and perhaps you should. However, I don't think you'd win.

 

Neither do I think a dealer would sue and win. But sitting in the dealership is different from buying on a set stage like eBay. You did your home work and that's good. You spoke to the dealer about what was happening and agreed to disagree on the matter. That is different from clicking to buy [in a sense same as signing a buyer's order] and then not going through with the deal or even explaining one's position to the seller...as what appears to be going on in this case.

 

Just my take. OP wanted some input, perhaps he and/or you didn't want a devil's advocate, but ya got one.

[ratfink]

Thanks Motodan:

 

That is a thoughtful answer and I appreciate it. Arguing is fun.

 

I am glad there are people out there willing to express their opinions because I like a spirited debate almost as much as I like riding. I also learn and maybe once in while manage to teach.

 

Helps to keep life interesting.

[ratfink]

Motodan:

 

You seem to have some insider knowlege so maybe you can help me this.

 

That time with the F&I guy isn't this a time of real weakness for most buyers? They just want to get done and ride home. Good time to slip in some sneaky stuff on the back of the contract and distract them from it with a hokey customer for life plan and theft insurance and the upholstry protection plan. Oh, and an extended warranty that doesn't cover anything that is likely to go wrong with the vehicle. Seems like a good time to slam em' eh?

 

How many people actually do what I did? Cranky old farts that have been burned before and took contract law in college?

 

No mostly hapless and innocent trusting people that think they have a newfound friend in the business. Poor saps.

 

By your own admission you are devil's advocate. Let your conscience be your guide. I have to say I don't think it adds to the debate to cast aspersions on the participants sense of resposibility and I hope that my grammar, syntax, spelling etc. meet with your approval.

 

 

[Motodan]

Ratfink, it doesn't matter if your presentations don't meet my approval. Point is, I think we'd both agree the OP does not demonstrate the best of writing skills and I'd add deductive skills. Makes me wonder if English is secondary to him?

 

The dealer I've worked part time for, as a BMW salesman, wanted me to also do F&I. I refused, simply because I do not want to sell something I believe doesn't represent value, at least from my perspective. I think motorcycles are fun and while certainly not necessary do add value to my life.

 

I think much of what F&I offers is not fun and has too huge a profit margin, which many times offers little value. I understand the Law of Large Numbers and would agree an extended contract can offer value, if it is used. However, the odds of a contract being used, to the owners benefit, is low.

 

I'm not saying most items aren't legit and I don't knock the dealer for selling it as they are in business to make a profit. It doesn't make them bad people...its business However, as always, buyer beware...the value may not be there for any one specific person. And, I do knock the buyer who doesn't do due diligence and wails about how he was duped into this and/or that.

[ratfink]

Motodan:

 

I apreciate your candor very much.

 

I will concede that there are some excellent dealers out there.

but may be hard to find.

 

The used car dealer I go to, out of habit, starts going through his relatively simple sales contract with me point by point. I have to say "Paul that is not necessary, I know it by heart."

He gets all my business and price haggling is minimal.

 

If the OP wants a used beemer he would probably do well to deal with a BMW moto dealer that has a report of their inspection.

The BMW dealers here are very good. I think that would help minimize his risk even if it costs him a bit more upfront.

 

Beyond that I just hope that he does not beat himself up too much and that he ends up with a great bike. Even if some of his logic is a bit fuzzy.

[Selden]

If the OP wants a used beemer he would probably do well to deal with a BMW moto dealer that has a report of their inspection.

That was my thinking when I bought my first (and to date only) boxer. I asked several friends (including several BMW owners) for advice, and they all urged extreme caution about buying an RT with 64,000 miles on it. Fortunately, it was 1-owner, and it had complete service records. To date, I have not had any significant problems (doesn't mean I haven't dropped a significant amount of money into it). Yes, I probably paid a few hundred dollars than I would have on a private party sale, but peace of mind was worth it.

 

Of course, this approach doesn't guarantee the absence of problems, but for someone who isn't sure what he's getting into, paying a little more to a reputable seller seems like cheap insurance.